Scion vs Yhwach

[Warren_Valion]

>Easy. Ichigo's Zanpakuto would have lost all of its techniques and would have just been a regular sword. Yhwach has already show to easily defend against what is far far above a regular sword. Without using the Almighty. Power nulling Zangetsu into a regular sword wouldn't have required Yhwach to use his own sword against it."

>-Ichigo successfully using a Gran Rey Cero infused Getsuga Tensho against Yhwach. Also wouldn't have happened if Yhwach passively nulled Ichigo's powers.

>-Yhwach actively deciding to break Ichigo's new Bankai . As well as deciding to not only break Renji's Zabimaru , but also break Ichigo's sword again a second timeafter it was restored, and only particially at that . Same thing with Renji's Zabimaru a 2nd time .

Yhwach's Almighty can't negate physical strength, dude - he can't "powernull Zangetsu into a regular sword" nor can he "negate" a Gran Ray Cero fused Gestsuga.

So any instance were Yhwach decides to break Ichigo's sword through the use of his fate manipulation (you know, his active power with The Almighty) is because of the reason that he can't negate Ichigo's stength, so he destroys by pulling from a future in which it is destroyed.

Arguing whether the Almighty is on or off is pointless because you are arguing why doesn't Yhwach negate something that the Almighty doesn't negate.

>I know its not the power null. That isnt my point. What my point here is that Yhwach wouldnt have had to break them in the first place if he already passively power nulled them because they would have already been incapable of harming him. He wouldnt need to destroy them, yet he did.

Yhwach used his future sight to break either Bankai with physical properites like Ichigo or Renji, or used it to destroy the weapon of someone who has comparable AP to himself and could harm him with a swing, like Aizen and Ichigo.

So even if Yhwach's power null negated KS mindhax in Yhwach's altered perception - that still wouldn't negate the force behind Aizen's swing, and Aizen is a being comparable in strength to Yhwach - so destroying the Bankai entirely makes sense.

Also, that scene was sort of an illusion, so I don't really know what was real or not, lol.

>A power being used differently =/= its an entirely different power. And this is because Jugram doesnt have full mastery over it like Yhwach does. That doesn't make the power itself different. It is still the same power to see into the future, shape it, etc. He just doesnt use it to the same extent as Yhwach can. Him using it less effectively doesnt defeat my point about the passive null.

Besides, Jugram himself explicitly says the Almighty is switched over to him when Yhwach sleeps. Im pretty sure someone who fully understands the ability and has possessed the ability before as the vessle for Yhwach's power would have pretty good credibility.

The Almighty is a multitude of different powers, dude.

And it says it clear as day in the manga that Jugram can't use the Almighty to its fullest capabilities like Yhwach can - the only power Jugram showed was Precognition, and it must have not been very strong since he didn't know that Uryu even had the Anti-thesis later in that same fight which goes to show that Jugram didn't have The Almighty's Info Analysis either.

So Jugram not having The Almighty's Power Null makes sense to the context of the scene.

>So....it aligns with my point then. Unless Yhwach is incapable of power nulling something beyond his power, which means you'd have to make a choice. Either the null isnt passive, or it can't null something superior to Yhwach, which is what your saying the Antithesis is.

What's your point here? That Yhwach can't negate something he is explicitly stated of not being able to negate? Ok? But I don't see how this means that Almighty's Power Null isn't passive - this doesn't even feel like the same argument.

Yhwach is incapable to negate the Anti-thesis as it was stated by Jugram that the Antithesis was a possible counter (ignore the fact that Uyru then got his ass kicked by Jugram using the Balance which is weaker than the Almighty) for the Almighty and that Uryu was stated by Yhwach himself to "transcened him (Yhwach) in a way" by not dying to Auschwalen.

 

[MachTwo]

>>>Easy. Ichigo's Zanpakuto would have lost all of its techniques and would have just been a regular sword. Yhwach has already shown to easily defend against what is far far above a regular sword. Without using the Almighty. Power nulling Zangetsu into a regular sword wouldn't have required Yhwach to use his own sword against it.

As other say, Yhwach didn't null AP and All of Ichigo zanpakuto power is literally just an AP, I dont know whats your point here. heck if he can null AP it doesn't even matter if he can do it passively or actively, either way just null it, no need to break his bankai

>>>No, its not. And I figured someone would counter with this. Yhwach started out without having it activated, yes. But he turned it on before Ichigo used Gran Rey Cero Infused Getsuga Tensho on him.

>>>End of Chapter 673, Yhwach's Almighty turns o . End of Chapter 675, Ichigo musters up his quincy and hollow powers . He attacks Yhwach with Gran Rey Cero + Getsuga after this point.

Are you sure u evereadbleach?

>>>And even if im wrong on this point IMade, you forgot about the 2nd time Ichigo used Getsuga Tensho on Yhwach. Where Yhwach blatantly had the Almighty activated and the attack killed him and forced Yhwach to rewrite his death. How do you explain this?

U mean when Yhwach is under the effect of KS? sure thing, not like it will matter since Yhwach cant null AP.

>>>I know its not the power null. That isnt my point. What my point here is that Yhwach wouldnt have had to break them in the first place if he already passively power nulled them because they would have already been incapable of harming him. He wouldnt need to destroy them, yet he did.

Because not all of Bankai is hax based abilities, he specifically stated bankai like ichigo to be dangerous to him and hence he break it, better to not take a risk.

>>>A power being used differently =/= its an entirely different power. And this is because Jugram doesnt have full mastery over it like Yhwach does. That doesn't make the power itself different. It is still the same power to see into the future, shape it, etc. He just doesnt use it to the same extent as Yhwach can. Him using it less effectively doesnt defeat my point about the passive null.

>>>Besides, Jugram himself explicitly says the Almighty is switched over to him when Yhwach sleeps. Im pretty sure someone who fully understands the ability and has possessed the ability before as the vessle for Yhwach's power would have pretty good credibility.

Are you serious? first look at jugram profile, all he can do is see the future and its not even as good as Yhwach as uryu noted, and he also say he's not a good as Yhwach in using it, even so far as stated to uryu to not judge A based on his fight against him since it merely a borrowed power but such will be not the case for Yhwach.

>>>So....it aligns with my point then. Unless Yhwach is incapable of power nulling something beyond his power, which means you'd have to make a choice. Either the null isnt passive, or it can't null something superior to Yhwach, which is what your saying the Antithesis is.

What do you mean by this? If there are power that beyond his nulling abililtis, he wont able to null it either it passive or active, thats common sense, nut sure why u need to bring this up and as others say, uryu is alwast been an exception to this because he possessed a power that surpassed his and even so far as can survive and unaffected by Yhwach assholen when he still a baby.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I'll post these 2 images, if you spot the difference then you'll know wether he had it active or not.

 

[IMadeThisOn8-1-2017]

Ahh, thanks Warren, I was about to reply to him.

Also, Kukui has based two of his points on instances of Yhwach where his Almighty is off such as using his sword against Ichigo or the Gran Rey Getsuga. Yhwach states he won't use the Almighty against Ichigo and activates it after Ichigo's Gran Rey Getsuga made him bleed.

So, once again a case of Kukui using his misinformation to try to downplay Bleach and ending up with him being wrong. What is this, the 5th time now?

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

>Yhwach's Almighty can't negate physical strength, dude - he can't "powernull Zamasu into a regular sword" nor can he "negate" a Gran Ray Cero fused Gestsuga.

Gran Ray Cero fused Getsuga was the only thing I was arguing, not physical strength. And why exactly would he not be able to nullify it? It's a technique.

>Yhwach used his future sight to break either Bankai with physical properites like Ichigo or Renji, or used it to destroy the weapon of someone who has comparable AP to himself and could harm him with a swing, like Aizen and Ichigo.

You do know the soul society is filled with bankai that are not just physically based or AP based right? Renji I can understand and i'll concede on that, but Ichigo's Zangetsu isn't just physically based dude. Getsuga is an energy based technique and Gran Rey Cero which is that + spatial manipulation.

>So even if Yhwach's power null negated KS mindhax in Yhwach's altered perception - that still wouldn't negate the force behind Aizen's swing, and Aizen is a being comparable in strength to Yhwach - so destroying the Bankai entirely makes sense.

Ichigo, Renji and Aizen's bankais specifically? sure. If it was just there's, you'd be right here. But Yhwach destroyed all of the Bankais in the future, some of which are definitely not just strength based.

>The Almighty is a multitude of different powers, dude. And it says it clear as day in the manga that Jugram can't use the Almighty to its fullest capabilities like Yhwach can - the only power Jugram showed was Precognition, and it must have not been very strong since he didn't know that Uryu even had the Anthesis later in that same fight which goes to show that Jugram didn't have The Almighty's Info Analysis either. So Jugram not having The Almighty's Power Null makes sense to the context of the scene.

I think its more that Jugram had everything but not to the same extent as Yhwach and less that he had missing powers from the Almighty. But assuming that what you're saying is true Warren, there is still a problem with this.

If the power null is supposed to be passive, then it wouldnt just be excluded from Jugram just because he cant use the Almighty to the same extent as Yhwach. A passive skill is something thats inherently included and does not need active dominion over, that's what makes it a passive hax in the first place. Lacking fate hax? Sure, I can buy that. Absorption? I can buy that too as haxes like those for the Almighty are active ones and would actually require control. But passive skills within the Almighty should remain there no matter who uses it. Meaning, no matter how little mastery Jugram has over the Almighty, his level of mastery shouldnt just discard a passive hax.

>What's your point here? That Yhwach can't negate something he is explicted stated of not being able to negate?

Not necessarily that. My point was that because the antithesis wasn't passively nulled and was canonically implied to be an actual threat to the Almighty, even its superior like Yhwach says, it should mean even more that the null isn't passive. Unless it is true that Yhwach can't negate something that surpasses his power, which i'd be willing to concede to.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Ahh, thanks Warren, I was about to reply to him.
Also, Kukui has based two of his points on instances of Yhwach where his Almighty is off such as using his sword against Ichigo or the Gran Rey Getsuga. Yhwach states he won't use the Almighty against Ichigo and activates it after Ichigo's Gran Rey Getsuga made him bleed.

So, once again a case of Kukui using his misinformation to try to downplay Bleach and ending up with him being wrong. What is this, the 5th time now?

No problem, but let's try and not antagonize another member, please?

There is no need for that as it can lead to a shitshow of a thread, not saying it will, but I am still a Discussion Moderator after all - just try and show Kukui were he is wrong, kay?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

well anyway i think i will vote for the A FRA

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I can't tell if you're seriously calling Zangetsu some sort of hax weapon. It's a sword that releases Ichigo's reiatsu as energy slashes. That is all it does. His spatial manipulation doesn't hurt anyone it's just a side effect that does nothing for him. You were in the very thread and agreed to this.

You're also taking this "All bankai are destroyed in the future" literally for some reason. There was no one else in the vicinity but Aizen, Yhwach, Ichigo, and Renji. unless you're saying he actually broke all bankai in two in existence.

You should really drop this Jugram point, it's not going to sell.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

except Jugram had no information analysis. So how will he see and understand the powers to nullify it? if you think he does have it feel free to get it added on his profile.

Jugram should have an Almighty key honestly since he canonically uses it whenever Yhwach sleeps. But thats beside the point.

Jugram not having the info analysis makes no sense when even with his inferior mastery over the Almighty, he still easily forsaw Uryu betraying the Sternritter and looked into the distant future. Plus, isnt the Almighty's precog passive? Because Jugram still very easily made use of it, which shows that Jugram can use passive skills from the Almighty when its in his possession.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

He has experience using the precog, you do realize the precog is the only thing Almighty did for as long as Jugram has known Yhwach right?

 

[Warren_Valion]

>What's your point here? That Yhwach can't negate something he is explicted stated of not being able to negate?

Not necessarily that. My point was that because the antithesis wasn't passively nulled and was canonically implied to be an actual threat to the Almighty, even its superior like Yhwach says, it should mean even more that the null isn't passive. Unless it is true that Yhwach can't negate something that surpasses his power, which i'd be willing to concede to.

>Gran Ray Cero fused Getsuga was the only thing I was arguing, not physical strength. And why exactly would he not be able to nullify it? It's a technique.

GRC is an energy attack that is fueled through Ichigo's Reiryoku. In other words, its based on his AP.

And Yhwach can't negate AP, he can negates powers.

>You do know the soul society is filled with bankai that are not just physically based or AP based right? Renji I can understand and i'll concede on that, but Ichigo's Zangetsu isn't just physically based dude. Getsuga is an energy based technique and Gran Rey Cero which is that + spatial manipulation.

>Ichigo, Renji and Aizen's bankais specifically? sure. If it was just there's, you'd be right here. But Yhwach destroyed all of the Bankais in the future, some of which are definitely not just strength based.

You are getting something wrong here - Yhwach didn't destroy all Bankais, he said all Bankais are already destroyed in the future, and so he uses his Fate Manipulation to bring that Future into the present to destroy Ichigo, Aizen, and Renji's Bankai.

It's like how we Humans know how all stars will be destroyed in the far future, that doesn't mean we have destroyed all the stars in the universe.


And like I said, Getsugas and GRCs are energy-based attacks that are based on the Reiryoku level of the user. Reiryoku is Spiritual Energy, the more spiritual energy you have, the physically stronger you are - energy attacks are AP based, just like in Dragon Ball. They aren't a hax that can be negated. Don't know why you would think this.

And as for the Spatial Manipulation, that's just an affect the energy has on the world due to its power, to bring up Dragon Ball again, its like how Super Buu's Vice Shout was strong enough to puncture a hole in the dimensional barrier.

It isn't apart of the ability, its an effect of it - one which Yhwach's could have negated, but he couldn't have negated the attack itself. So he still would be injured by a Getsuga none the less

>I think its more that Jugram had everything but not to the same extent as Yhwach and less that he had missing powers from the Almighty. But assuming that what you're saying is true Warren, there is still a problem with this.

If the power null is supposed to be passive, then it wouldnt just be excluded from Jugram just because he cant use the Almighty to the same extent as Yhwach. A passive skill is something thats inherently included and does not need active dominion over, that's what makes it a passive hax in the first place. Lacking fate hax? Sure, I can buy that. Absorption? I can buy that too as haxes like those for the Almighty are active ones and would actually require control. But passive skills within the Almighty should remain there no matter who uses it. Meaning, no matter how little mastery Jugram has over the Almighty, his level of mastery shouldnt just discard a passive hax.

You think?

So you are making a bunch of assumptions on what powers Jugram has with a weaker Almighty, and then using that as proof that the Almighty's powernull isn't passive despite Yhwach explicitly stating that it is when he is explaining his powers to Ichibe?

A passive skill just means that it doesn't require effort to sustain - that doesn't mean that it should be apart of Jugram's Almighty. An Almighty lesser to that of Yhwach's like how Yhwach's Almighty is a lesser version to that of Reio's.

As I stated eariler, Jugram showed that he didn't have the Almighty's Info Analysis either, which is also passive, so your clearly wrong on this topic.

The context of the scene explains itself - you are the one having trouble believing it, but that's not on the manga, that's on you.

>Not necessarily that. My point was that because the antithesis wasn't passively nulled and was canonically implied to be an actual threat to the Almighty, even its superior like Yhwach says, it should mean even more that the null isn't passive. Unless it is true that Yhwach can't negate something that surpasses his power, which i'd be willing to concede to.

This point makes no sense. Yhwach being unable to negate something doesn't mean that his negation isn't passive - there is no correlation between those two concepts.

Yhwach can't negate a Type 1 Abstracts' powers, but that doesn't mean that Yhwach's negation isn't passive.

That just means that Yhwach's power null has limits, like every power in fiction does.


I am done answering questions or making rebuttals for the night. Good night.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Alright then. You can guys can continue the matchup (if its not already done).

And a personal thanks for Warren for making sure this stayed civilized. Personally appreciate that we could have this discussion and keep it calm and collected.

 

[Heavens_Feel]

Don't know why people try cherry pick specific scenarios (wrong ones at that) when we are given a clear description of how the ability works but to each their own.

My vote goes to Yhwach for reasons previously mentioned

 

[Warren_Valion]

Don't know why people try cherry pick specific scenarios (wrong ones at that) when we are given a clear description of how the ability works but to each their own.
My vote goes to Yhwach for reasons previously mentioned

I don't believe that Yhwach has any reasons for his victory.

IIRC, the ongoing consensus was that the match would be inconclusive because neither party would be able to fully kill the other.

I guess that's a logical conclusion to make, so Inconclusive FRA.

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

i guess if Y can take scion out even if he does not kill him it would count as a win for Y unless scion can come back in less than 24 hours

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Don't know why people try cherry pick specific scenarios (wrong ones at that) when we are given a clear description of how the ability works but to each their own.

Because actual portrayls take priority over statements. Last thing im gonna say here as I wanted to make clear why I argued earlier.

EDIT: Im also going to vote for inconclusive FRA. Forgot to put this.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I'll vote Inconclusive as well, I don't think there's anything Scion can throw at Yhwach that would properly put him down, and vice versa due to redirection of attacks and powers into other universes + his true form existing in a pocket dimension protected from interdimensional travel/powers.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yhwach - 2? (Heaven, TOAA)

Scion -

Inconclusive - 4 (Dargoo, KuKui, Warren, Sigurd)

 

[Naeblis495]

i vote Incon as well

 

[AppleLord]

I can't tell if you're seriously calling Zangetsu some sort of hax weapon. It's a sword that releases Ichigo's reiatsu as energy slashes. That is all it does. His spatial manipulation doesn't hurt anyone it's just a side effect that does nothing for him. You were in the very thread and agreed to this.
You're also taking this "All bankai are destroyed in the future" literally for some reason. There was no one else in the vicinity but Aizen, Yhwach, Ichigo, and Renji. unless you're saying he actually broke all bankai in two in existence.

You should really drop this Jugram point, it's not going to sell.

Zangetsu has always had had.

(insert surprise Pikachu face here)

Zangetsu's power is to absorb energy into the blade. Ichigo always put his own energy into the blade and throw it as GETSUGA TENSHŌ but in the final battle with Yhwach he manages to absorb his opponent energy through his blade.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yhwach - 2? (Heaven, TOAA)

Scion -

Inconclusive - 5 (Dargoo, KuKui, Warren, Sigurd, Naeblis)

 

[Warren_Valion]

Yhwach doesn't have a win condition, nor any reason for why he should win - so I believe the votes for him shouldn't count.

 

[Dat_Dot]

Incon FRA.

 

[Dragopentling]

Incon FRA

 

[Warren_Valion]

That's seven votes I believe - Grace has started.