Scarlet witch upgrade

[Yoazkk6188]

Scarlet witch should be Low 2-C at peak by destroying the Darkhold and Castle in every universe

The Multiverse contains an uncountable infinite amount of timelines according to MCU Cosmology page where every timeline has endless possibilities which are infinite branching points that each create timelines and those timelines branch out from their own infinite points and so on Timelines are temporally infinite and have infinite instances of time occuring at once and every moment leads to a multiverse of infinite possibilities so there is uncountable infinite amount of timelines

The uncountable infinite amount of timelines from the Sacred Timeline that are branching out indefinitelyconnected to the rest of the Multiverse which is infinite. The rest of the Multiverse have infinite amount of those unique timelines, which is further confirmed by the Marvel Website

Due to Wanda destroy the Darkhold in every uncountable timeline/universe collectively in the Multiverse as a whole, destroying an uncountable infinite amount of 3D Matter is 4D/Low 2-C power

 

[LMalone22]

It makes sense that official statement is that she is the most powerful being in the universe. I am neutral and biased towards agree

 

[Qawsedf234]

The Multiverse contains an uncountable infinite amount of timelines according to MCU Cosmology page

If you go to the second section of the page you'll see this

With this we can conclude that all of the uncountable infinite timelines that branched out indefinitely from the Sacred Timeline at least contain an infinite number of universes, realities and dimensions, endless possibilities where every passing/singular moment can branch out into infinite realities and possibilities, making each single branch a 2-A structure which in turn can branch out into uncountable infinite 2-A structures on its own, and so on ad infinitum with each single branch.

This makes the entire structure of the Sacred Timeline along with all of its uncountable infinite branched timelines ad infinitum a Low 1-C structure. And the Multiverse as a whole contains an infinite amount[4] of those unique timelines,[21] which is further confirmed by the Marvel Website,[22][23] like the Sacred Timeline and its branches called "trees"[15] which are stacked,[4] making the entire Multiverse and the space containing all the timelines and branches, called the End of Time, higher into Low 1-C (5D

The entire multiverse is Low 1-C because its an infinite set of spaces being multiplied into itself an infinite number of times.

If the standard universe was Low 2-C, then this wouldn't work scaling wise.

Due to Wanda destroy the Darkhold in every uncountable timeline/universe collectively in the Multiverse as a whole, destroying an uncountable infinite amount of 3D Matter is 4D/Low 2-C power

Wanda destroyed the Darkhold in an infinite number of singular spaces. Which is why its High 3-A and not Low 2-C. The number of total Low 2-C spaces are uncountable infinite, but a singular Low 2-C space is just a countable infinity.

 

[LMalone22]

Wanda destroyed the Darkhold in an infinite number of singular spaces. Which is why its High 3-A and not Low 2-C. The number of total Low 2-C spaces are uncountable infinite, but a singular Low 2-C space is just a countable infinity.

Isn't it that each universe should have infinite space since the watcher states that the universe is endless

 

[Qawsedf234]

Isn't it that each universe should have infinite space since the watcher states that the universe is endless

The Darkhold would still not give her more than High 3-A. You need an Uncountable Infinite number of objects to get that number and you can't get that from taking a finite number and multiplying it by infinity. There's an infinite number of timelines and each timeline houses an infinite number of dimensions. Those two infinities being multiplied is why the entire structure is Low 1-C.

Wanda affected one singular item across the timelines, which is why it wasn't rated at Low 2-C. The range itself is like 5D, but the feat is High 3-A.

 

[LMalone22]

You mean she needs to affect more than one 3D objects for her to get Low2-C rating? But what I'm talking about is that official list says she's the most powerful being in the universe and her acted with the darkhold should justify her upgrade

 

[Qawsedf234]

You mean she needs to affect more than one 3D objects for her to get Low2-C rating?

She would need to affect an infinite amount of matter an infinite number for times to get Low 2-C. Because it's ^. Right now you're doing X^ which will only ever get you High 3-A.

powerful being in the universe and her acted with the darkhold should justify her upgrade

Her being the most powerful as a statement is supporting evidence for her High 3-A rating. She's stronger than any Celestial currently as an example. But that doesnt justify a Tier 2 upgrade currently.

 

[LMalone22]

Her being the most powerful as a statement is supporting evidence for her High 3-A rating. She's stronger than any Celestial currently as an example. But that doesnt justify a Tier 2 upgrade currently.

What about eternity?

 

[Qawsedf234]

What about eternity?

Eventually maybe. When she performed the feat, no. Its just High 3-A.

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

in order to go beyond high 3-A it'd need to be elaborated that she destroyed darkhold in the infinite space-times across their past present future afaik

 

[LMalone22]

But I wonder, since the timelines are infinitely branching out and it's new universes and she destroys the darkhold in the multiverse, does that mean she destroys the darkhold in every timeline and every new universe infinitely, which would make sense given that she destroys infinite matter on top of infinitely?

 

[FriendOfTheTeaParty]

But I wonder, since the timelines are infinitely branching out and it's new universes and she destroys the darkhold in the multiverse, does that mean she destroys the darkhold in every timeline and every new universe infinitely, which would make sense given that she destroys infinite matter on top of infinitely?

could be taken as she destroys every darkhold in every universe in that moment and from that point they start branching off the darkhold no longer exists

 

[JackBlot1]

It makes sense that official statement is that she is the most powerful being in the universe. I am neutral and biased towards agree

Is this AI generated?

 

[LMalone22]

Is this AI generated?

No

 

[JackBlot1]

No

Where is this from then? Most of these words are spelt incorrectly, theres no way marvel would post something like that.

 

[LMalone22]

Where is this from then? Most of these words are spelt incorrectly, theres no way marvel would post something like that.

doctor strange in the multiverse of madness Art Book Official Here. you can see that page at 2.05 minutes

 

[Phoenks]

Guess I'll just reply here.

Given that SW has Low 1-C range on her page, I'm guessing its already been accepted that she can destroy an uncountably infinite amount of Darkholds (since there's an uncountably infinite amount of universes for her to erase it from).

So yeah, this would hold up in my mind. Uncountably infinite amount of 3D material destroyed = 4D. Low 2-C sounds fine to me. A bit of an interesting way to get there.


Edit:

Because it's ^. Right now you're doing X^ which will only ever get you High 3-A.

X^infinity is Aleph-1. Same as infinity^infinity

see: Continuum hypothesis (Taken as true, it assumes 2^Aleph-0 is equal to Aleph-1 — The wiki takes this as true, just so you know)

So yeah, even with that logic, it would still end up be Low 2-C.

 

[LMalone22]

And should she also have hax 4-D?, she can use darkhold spells to access energy across the multiverse

 

[Qawsedf234]

Given that SW has Low 1-C range on her page, I'm guessing its already been accepted that she can destroy an uncountably infinite amount of Darkholds

Taken as true, it assumes 2^Aleph-0 is equal to Aleph-1 — The wiki takes this as true, just so you know

But I don't see how it would count for the higher end of that hypothesis. She destroyed a single object an infinite number of times, not an object an uncountable infinite.

The reason the MCU multiverse is Low 1-C is because each timeline is 2-A in size (infinite dimensions) and there are infinite timelines. But she's only effecting a single object in each of those timelines rather than all objects in each timeline. 1 multipled by infinity doesn't get you Aleph-1, it gets you Aleph-0.

 

[Phoenks]

But I don't see how it would count for the higher end of that hypothesis. She destroyed a single object an infinite number of times, not an object an uncountable infinite.

The reason the MCU multiverse is Low 1-C is because each timeline is 2-A in size (infinite dimensions) and there are infinite timelines. But she's only effecting a single object in each of those timelines rather than all objects in each timeline. 1 multipled by infinity doesn't get you Aleph-1, it gets you Aleph-0.

Well, truthfully, I don't even think we need to use the hypothesis for this case. (But even if we did, it isn't 1 object. That object is made up of countless molecules. Countless atoms. Countless 3-D particles of space. The only way it wouldn't end up being Low 2-C is if it were a single infinitesimal point particle)

It says she destroyed the darkhold in every universe, and she has Low 1-C range as a result of scaling to the uncountable realities.

The math would actually just be multiplying 1 Darkhold multiplied by the Aleph-1 amount of universes it exists in. Which is simply Aleph-1 Darkholds. A Low 2-C amount of stuff.

Unless she didn't actually destroy it in an Aleph-1 amount of universes.

 

[LMalone22]

an infinite number of times

I swear I never heard anywhere that she did that. What she did was she destroyed infinite objects in every infinite universe, not that she destroyed them for infinite number of times. If that were the case, she would have died and been reborn infinite many times to do that

 

[Qawsedf234]

That object is made up of countless molecules. Countless atoms. Countless 3-D particles of space

It's not countless, its a finite number of atoms because its a finite sized book. There's only one book per timeline as well.

and she has Low 1-C range as a result of scaling to the uncountable realities.

Her range has nothing to do with the amount of matter effected. There's just not as many Darkholds as you're implying to get Low 2-C.

Unless she didn't actually destroy it in an Aleph-1 amount of universes.

As I said before, she didn't. There's a infinite number of timelines that she destroyed them in, but those timelines aren't an uncountable infinity. They only get that high because of how massive each individual timeline is, but she wouldn't scale to affecting the entire structure, but an individual component in them.

 

[Phoenks]

It's not countless, its a finite number of atoms because its a finite sized book. There's only one book per timeline as well.

Uhm. "Countless" is just a synonym for a very large number? Lol. I didn't wanna go look up how many billions of trillions of molecules and atoms a book has. I guess on vsbw it be used differently.

The main idea is just that it wouldn't be 1 being raised to the infinite power. Since the book isn't just 1 indivisible thing. It takes up some amount of non-infinitesimal 3-D space so if you did think she destroyed that raised to the infinite power, it would be Low 2-C.

As I said before, she didn't. There's a infinite number of timelines that she destroyed them in, but those timelines aren't an uncountable infinity. They only get that high because of how massive each individual timeline is, but she wouldn't scale to affecting the entire structure, but an individual component in them.

I'm a bit confused. How does it get to Low 1-C if there's no uncountable infinity of universes she affected them in? Could you break that down more thoroughly?

 

[Qawsedf234]

How does it get to Low 1-C if there's no uncountable infinity of universes she affected them in? Could you break that down more thoroughly?

• Each timeline is 2-A, as it has an infinite amount of universe sized alternate dimensions. These dimensions aren't like the universe, but they're the weird abstract spaces seen in Doctor Strange and Any-Man
• Every possible choice and every choices choice makes a different timeline

It's Low 1-C because you have a 2-A number of structures that duplicate themselves infinitely.

But that's for the totality of space. There's only a countable infinite number of any particular dimension and only a countable infinite number of Darkhold because of that.

It's why Wanda shouldn't have Low 1-C range to be honest, but more like 2-A range. Though that is debatably I guess.

 

[LMalone22]

structure of the multiverse in MCU is low1-c, she destroys the Darkhold and Mount Wundagore. In every universe, that means the multiverse, and that also means every time period, because if you talk about infinite timeline, that means each timeline in the MCU has its own time period and she not only destroyed it in every timeline but every universe too so how can it not be range low1-c I'm confused

 

[Phoenks]

But that's for the totality of space. There's only a countable infinite number of any particular dimension and only a countable infinite number of Darkhold because of that.

In the movie it says she destroyed every Darkhold in the multiverse.

Including ones outside the Sacred Timeline (Which itself is already a 2-A structure). Sinister Strange universe as an example. Likely including every universe that America can enter.

So idk, it does seem to me like she would just be affecting every Darkhold across the entire structure. And that's what's currently accepted from the looks of it.

I'm also confused why you say there's only a countably infinite number of any particular dimension. Since each of them branch out in the same way.

 

[Qawsedf234]

the movie it says she destroyed every Darkhold in the multiverse.

Yes, and there's only one Darkhold per timeline within the Multiverse. There aren't sn infinite amount of Darkholds per timeline, but one per timeline.

So idk, it does seem to me like she would just be affecting every Darkhold across the entire structure

Which isn't an uncountable infinite number, as there's a countable infinite number of timelines with one Darkhole per timeline.

I'm also confused why you say there's only a countably infinite number of any particular dimension. Since each of them branch out in the same way.

Because every singular dimension in a timeline has a countable infinite number of alternate timeline versions. Only as a collective do you get an uncountable infinite number of universal spaces and Wanda didn't effect that uncountable infinite number of spaces.

 

[Phoenks]

Yes, and there's only one Darkhold per timeline within the Multiverse. There aren't sn infinite amount of Darkholds per timeline, but one per timeline.

Every timeline branches into a 2-A structure with infinite worlds though. And she affects every timeline in the multiverse. There's an uncountably infinite amount of universes collectively within them, each with a darkhold inside them. Aleph-1 amount of Darkholds.

Overall it sounds to me like you'd need to downgrade her range back to 2-A for these arguments to make sense. ATM she is just outright accepted to affect uncountably infinite realities.

So until that downgrade happens I'm not quite sure you can exactly even argue against this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Overall it sounds to me like you'd need to downgrade her range back to 2-A for these arguments to make sense.

Yeah, that would be my suggestion. She only effected a countable infinite number of spaces and not the entire Multiverse which is where the range would come from.

There's an uncountably infinite amount of universes collectively within them, each with a darkhold inside them

This is where your issue is. There are not a Darkhole for every universe, there is one Darkhold per timeline. Every unique timeline only contains one Darkhold, so there can't be an uncountable infinite number of them per our current cosmology.

 

[Phoenks]

This is where your issue is. There are not a Darkhole for every universe, there is one Darkhold per timeline. Every unique timeline only contains one Darkhold, so there can't be an uncountable infinite number of them per our current cosmology.

Every timeline has infinite universes though.

Like, say universe 1 or whatever has a darkhold.

That universe branches into infinite universes. Each of those would have a darkhold since they're based upon that first one.

And then every branched universe from there would still contain the darkhold. (And that's just within a single "timeline")

I just don't really see what you're saying. It ends up being aleph-1 no matter how you slice it.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Every timeline has infinite universes

The timelines have infinite dimensions, but only one universe. Every alternate universe (where Earth is at) is a new timeline with its own multiverse. There's a countable infinite number of universes with one Darkhole per universe.

Your assumption is that the baseline universes are uncountably infinite, when that's not the accepted criteria for the cosmology.

ends up being aleph-1 no matter how you slice it.

I think you're just not getting how the cosmology works currently. You're just overestimating the size of the timelines.

 

[Phoenks]

The timelines have infinite dimensions, but only one universe

??? I don't know what the difference between dimension and universe is here.

I'm going off the MCU cosmology page, which explicitly says this:

Further evidence of this are some statements from WoG which imply that each timeline is a multiverse on its own.

It accepts that even lone timelines are themselves 2-A multiverses made up of infinitely branched realities.

Also, even just based on this:

After the death of He Who Remains, the Sacred Timeline was freed and branched out[9] indefinitely at every point of time[11] into bigger timelines that connected with the rest of the Multiverse,[20] the number of which is infinite.[21] As a plus, the Sacred Timeline, and thus its branches, is stated by WoG to be temporally infinite as there are infinite instances of time always occurring at once.[22] During What If...?, we are told that there are endless possibilities where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities.[23] The Watcher states that every passing moment is a possibility for a new branching,[21] and an article from the Marvel Website also states: "One singular moment leads to a multiverse of infinite possibilities".[24] All these statements confirms that there are an uncountable infinite amount of timelines that are branching out indefinitely from the Sacred Timeline at every passing/singular moment, with infinite instances of time always occurring at once.

Would make this an uncountably infinite amount of Darkholds. If literally every instant of the multiverse is already an uncountably infinite amount of branches. Affecting all the Darkholds across the multiverse would be uncountable. Hell, even if you think it's just some part of the multiverse, it would still be uncountable.

I genuinely don't get the confusion here. I don't think I'm the one not understanding the cosmology. Feel free to bring in another party to the conversation though.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If literally every instant of the multiverse is already an uncountably infinite amount of branches.

Multiverses are made from individual choices which is how it branches off to infinity. It's personal actions that cause the divergence rather than quantum randomness.

Additionally you missed the bottom portion of that section

With this we can conclude that all of the uncountable infinite timelines that branched out indefinitely from the Sacred Timeline at least contain an infinite number of universes, realities and dimensions, endless possibilities where every passing/singular moment can branch out into infinite realities and possibilities, making each single branch a 2-A structure which in turn can branch out into uncountable infinite 2-A structures on its own, and so on ad infinitum with each single branch.

This makes the entire structure of the Sacred Timeline along with all of its uncountable infinite branched timelines ad infinitum a Low 1-C structure. And the Multiverse as a whole contains an infinite amount[9] of those unique timelines,[26] which is further confirmed by the Marvel Website,[27][28] like the Sacred Timeline and its branches called "trees"[20] which are stacked,[9] making the entire Multiverse and the space containing all the timelines and branches, called the End of Time, higher into Low 1-C (5-D).

The timelines are 2-A that branch infinitely out. Its why the MCU got upgraded in the first place to Low 1-C was because it's a stacked number of infinites, but that's for all timelines together and that's only for effecting all realms of the multiverse at once, which Wanda does not do.

genuinely don't get the confusion here

I mean it goes both ways. If you want to get others feel free to, but I don't see it being upgraded since there just isn't that many Darkholds.

 

[Phoenks]

The timelines are 2-A that branch infinitely out. Its why the MCU got upgraded in the first place to Low 1-C was because it's a stacked number of infinites, but that's for all timelines together and that's only for effecting all realms of the multiverse at once, which Wanda does not do.

But it literally says she erased "every Darkhold in the multiverse." That would be every Darkhold from every universe, including all the branches, of which there's an uncountably infinite amount of.

Ah, at this point we're just going back and forth.

I don't understand why you don't think there's that many Darkholds, when there is that many universes.

In fact, even a branch out of a single universe containing a darkhold would result in an uncountably infinite amount of darkhold realities going by the cosmology.

With this we can conclude that all of the uncountable infinite timelines that branched out indefinitely from the Sacred Timeline at least contain an infinite number of universes, realities and dimensions, endless possibilities where every passing/singular moment can branch out into infinite realities and possibilities, making each single branch a 2-A structure which in turn can branch out into uncountable infinite 2-A structures on its own, and so on ad infinitum with each single branch.

Like, that bolded text means any singular event eventually culminates in uncountably infinite realities. All of which would possess the same core traits of its predecessors, such as the existence of a Darkhold.

There's just no way she isn't affecting an uncountably infinite amount of them going by what's said on the cosmology.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Ah, at this point we're just going back and forth

Sure. Just list me as disagreeing.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Qawsed, this still seems more High 3-A combined with Multiversal+ range.

 

[Phoenks]

You'd have to downgrade scarlet witch to 2-A range for Qwased to make sense. Otherwise he's just wrong based on the mathematics and current cosmology she's accepted to affect.

But also, as I said, she literally is said to destroy it across the whole multiverse. Including things beyond the Sacred Timeline. So I don't even think you could downgrade her to 2-A range.

 

[Qawsedf234]

You'd have to downgrade scarlet witch to 2-A range for Qwased to make sense

Sure, sounds good to me and I feel it's more accurate anyways

 

[Cropfist]

It makes sense that official statement is that she is the most powerful being in the universe. I am neutral and biased towards agree

Thanos had the very same statement, and it was contradicted by Wanda herself.

 

[FinePoint]

Your assumption is that the baseline universes are uncountably infinite, when that's not the accepted criteria for the cosmology.

It is.

Spoiler: Timeline Size

"After the death of He Who Remains, the Sacred Timeline was freed and branched out[9] indefinitely at every point of time[11] into bigger timelines that connected with the rest of the Multiverse,[20] the number of which is infinite.[21] As a plus, the Sacred Timeline, and thus its branches, is stated by WoG to be temporally infinite as there are infinite instances of time always occurring at once.[22] During What If...?, we are told that there are endless possibilities where a single choice can branch out into infinite realities.[23] The Watcher states that every passing moment is a possibility for a new branching,[21] and an article from the Marvel Website also states: "One singular moment leads to a multiverse of infinite possibilities".[24] All these statements confirms that there are an uncountable infinite amount of timelines that are branching out indefinitely from the Sacred Timeline at every passing/singular moment, with infinite instances of time always occurring at once.

"This makes the entire structure of the Sacred Timeline along with all of its uncountable infinite branched timelines ad infinitum a Low 1-C structure. And the Multiverse as a whole contains an infinite amount[9] of those unique timelines,[26] which is further confirmed by the Marvel Website,[27][28] like the Sacred Timeline and its branches called "trees"[20] which are stacked,[9] making the entire Multiverse and the space containing all the timelines and branches, called the End of Time, higher into Low 1-C (5-D)."

To destroy all of an object across the "multiverse" in the context of the MCU is destroy that object across an entire Low 1-C structure, and I don't know why you think there's only one Darkhold per either. The only objects confirmed to be unique per timeline (even across all its branches) are the infinity stones since they help make it up, but the Darkhold is just a book written by some demon ultimately, it shouldn't have any similar problem.

Therefore, I think Phoenks is correct and this should be a Low 2-C feat.