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- #81
I mean he was going to crack the planet aswell but fair enough...Also what do you think Sargeras' hax as a titan is,since he has much more than just "strong,agile and smart"?
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Sargeras being severly downplayed.
- Thread starter Abstract101
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@Myriadofmemes My main point with that is that their feat was nowhere near infinitely smaller than the universe itself seeing on how it was portrayed. Not doing any damage while fighting is, out of anything, a meaningless PIS and many characters won't be rated that high on that site. So I seriously hope you're not expecting them to always blow up things while taking the slightest of action if that was your second point.
I can't wrongly interpret a statement only supported by the fact that it's implied to be extra-dimensional , and that there is only one version of each demon across the infinity of the universes. Add this to the fact that it's logically as large as all space-time continuums combined (Infinite 4D), and that becomes kinda obvious that it's more than just 3D or 4D.
The point of Argus, or at least his ultimate ability's, was to destroy all of creation... in one strike. Do you really think that if he wanted to destroy all things, he would have to do it an infinite number of times to actually destroy all things ? Also, the planet Argus was the epicenter of the Legion that travels across all realities, no reasons to only destroy the "main" universe which isn't any more special than the others.
"2-A is a stretch. There isn't nearly enough information presented in game..." All of creation = all that was created = Nether + infinite universes + Emerald Dream.
Kil'jaeden also said the burning crusade travels across creation , and Archimonde was said to have destroyed countless worlds across the infinity of the universes , yet these guys are equal and do the same job. That kinda implies that creation is referring to all the universes.
I can't wrongly interpret a statement only supported by the fact that it's implied to be extra-dimensional , and that there is only one version of each demon across the infinity of the universes. Add this to the fact that it's logically as large as all space-time continuums combined (Infinite 4D), and that becomes kinda obvious that it's more than just 3D or 4D.
The point of Argus, or at least his ultimate ability's, was to destroy all of creation... in one strike. Do you really think that if he wanted to destroy all things, he would have to do it an infinite number of times to actually destroy all things ? Also, the planet Argus was the epicenter of the Legion that travels across all realities, no reasons to only destroy the "main" universe which isn't any more special than the others.
"2-A is a stretch. There isn't nearly enough information presented in game..." All of creation = all that was created = Nether + infinite universes + Emerald Dream.
Kil'jaeden also said the burning crusade travels across creation , and Archimonde was said to have destroyed countless worlds across the infinity of the universes , yet these guys are equal and do the same job. That kinda implies that creation is referring to all the universes.
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@Aurzod, there is no such thing as as something that is nowhere near infinitely smaller, there is only finite and infinite. Any finite number is completely insignificant in the face of infinity and by definition, infinitely smaller next to infinity.
Your second sentence is contradictory to your whole argument. If the titans aren't dealing damage to everything and everything hasn't been destroyed than their damage to the universe hasn't been infinite. You do remember that you are trying to scale them to the supposedly infinite damage that they dealt to the universe, right?
2. The word ''extra'' is derived from the Latin word of the same spelling that means "outside". "Extra dimensional" is an umbrella term that refers to anything or anyone that is from a different universe than the one from which an individual originally comes from. That does include any potential alternate realities as well as higher dimensional ones.
The Orcs on Alternate Draenor? Extra dimensional.
Alternate Vol'Jin, Jaina, Thrall, Anduin and Baine from the War Crimes novel? All Extra dimensional.
Obviously, the demons of the twisting nether would fall under this category too. Are any of them Higher dimensional (or hyper-dimensional) however? No. Your quote is referring to the fact that demons hail from a different dimension entirely. Both the Great Dark and the Twisting Nether are infinite in size, neither of them are larger than the other and neither of them display any higher dimensional properties as stated above.
3. As for Argus destroying the entire multiverse, this quote from Aggramar's dungeon journal entry seems to suggest otherwise:
"Once the noble Avenger of the Pantheon, Aggramar was struck down by Sargeras and reborn as a titan of destruction. He now stands at the core of Argus, guarding a power that could unmake the universe".
http://www.wowhead.com/legion-dungeon-journal#antorus-the-burning-thronebosses-aggramar
I think that we can finally put this issue to rest.
Your second sentence is contradictory to your whole argument. If the titans aren't dealing damage to everything and everything hasn't been destroyed than their damage to the universe hasn't been infinite. You do remember that you are trying to scale them to the supposedly infinite damage that they dealt to the universe, right?
2. The word ''extra'' is derived from the Latin word of the same spelling that means "outside". "Extra dimensional" is an umbrella term that refers to anything or anyone that is from a different universe than the one from which an individual originally comes from. That does include any potential alternate realities as well as higher dimensional ones.
The Orcs on Alternate Draenor? Extra dimensional.
Alternate Vol'Jin, Jaina, Thrall, Anduin and Baine from the War Crimes novel? All Extra dimensional.
Obviously, the demons of the twisting nether would fall under this category too. Are any of them Higher dimensional (or hyper-dimensional) however? No. Your quote is referring to the fact that demons hail from a different dimension entirely. Both the Great Dark and the Twisting Nether are infinite in size, neither of them are larger than the other and neither of them display any higher dimensional properties as stated above.
3. As for Argus destroying the entire multiverse, this quote from Aggramar's dungeon journal entry seems to suggest otherwise:
"Once the noble Avenger of the Pantheon, Aggramar was struck down by Sargeras and reborn as a titan of destruction. He now stands at the core of Argus, guarding a power that could unmake the universe".
http://www.wowhead.com/legion-dungeon-journal#antorus-the-burning-thronebosses-aggramar
I think that we can finally put this issue to rest.
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Anyways, Ant I'm free right now, can you unlock Sargeras for a little while?
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- #86
Well tbh Myriad,it is said that he can unmake the universe...however the universe in wow can mean many things,as mentioned in chronicles that Sargeras wanted to purge the universe with the help of the legion,yet the legion's goal was to purge the multiverse,so the term is used vaguely and could mean many things.
Edit: why is this in Sargeras' profile: "Sargeras's flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras's body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles, with the effect on natural climates being devastating."
It's from wc rpg which is considered non canon so...
Edit: why is this in Sargeras' profile: "Sargeras's flesh burns with demonic energy, scorching everything in his path. Sargeras's body flames slowly increase the ambient temperature by up to 50 degrees in every direction for 1,000 miles, with the effect on natural climates being devastating."
It's from wc rpg which is considered non canon so...
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^ This
@Myriadofmemes "Any finite number is insignificant in the face of infinity" That's basically why their feat can't only be multi-galaxy level based on how it was portrayed since it was made in an infinite universe. Also, you can do a High 3-A feat without destroying the whole structure, like something can be infinite in size in only one direction without filling up the entire universe (same for the vast stretches). And if that's really not High 3-A, that's definitely at least 3-A.
You searched the definition of extra, not extra-dimensional itself which is about additional space or time dimensions. Only the demons of the Twisting Nether were referred as such, not the alternate guys from an alternate reality.
There is only one Twisting Nether, which exists across all realities and is used to travel across all of them. There is different levels of infinity you know, and I already said why it does actually display higher dimensional properties (and yet this is, of course, totally ignoring an actual author statement, which even if it doesn't prove that it transcends, it proves that it exists across all realities, each of them being infinite in size).
That's obvious since the universe is part of creation, but that's moot since it doesn't say that it's his limit. Indeed, it gets debunked by the fact that he could also destroy creation which cannot just mean one universe for reasons I already gave , the Burning crusade travels creation (infinite universes) and Argus unmake it. That's all and it makes sense, Argus was the reason the Legion continued to spawn across creation, all universes, so him destroying all of them is coherent.
@Myriadofmemes "Any finite number is insignificant in the face of infinity" That's basically why their feat can't only be multi-galaxy level based on how it was portrayed since it was made in an infinite universe. Also, you can do a High 3-A feat without destroying the whole structure, like something can be infinite in size in only one direction without filling up the entire universe (same for the vast stretches). And if that's really not High 3-A, that's definitely at least 3-A.
You searched the definition of extra, not extra-dimensional itself which is about additional space or time dimensions. Only the demons of the Twisting Nether were referred as such, not the alternate guys from an alternate reality.
There is only one Twisting Nether, which exists across all realities and is used to travel across all of them. There is different levels of infinity you know, and I already said why it does actually display higher dimensional properties (and yet this is, of course, totally ignoring an actual author statement, which even if it doesn't prove that it transcends, it proves that it exists across all realities, each of them being infinite in size).
That's obvious since the universe is part of creation, but that's moot since it doesn't say that it's his limit. Indeed, it gets debunked by the fact that he could also destroy creation which cannot just mean one universe for reasons I already gave , the Burning crusade travels creation (infinite universes) and Argus unmake it. That's all and it makes sense, Argus was the reason the Legion continued to spawn across creation, all universes, so him destroying all of them is coherent.
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D:
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@Abstract101 I disagree, "universe" only means one thing. There is no source which seems vague in any way when referring to these terms, or at least I haven't found one yet. In fact, it was Antorus who said that Creation means everything in every case it's used but I haven't seen anyone provide any source for this. So I went looking for anything that clearly, without any sort of vagueness, uses the word creation to refer to the entire multiverse every single time and I found nothing. On the other hand, while looking through the Chronicles I found overwhelming evidence that states otherwise. Even in the Tomb of Sargeras trailer that Aurzod linked when Kil'Jaeden says "the corners of creation" the camera clearly pans out to reveal the stars in the sky indicating that Kil'Jaeden is referring to this universe alone. Aurzod is very clearly incorrect about the meaning of this scene in the cinematic, in my opinion.
@Aurzod Again, these are just wild speculations without knowing anything about the circumstances that surround them. As I stated before the fight's duration and the damage dealt by each individual titan are entirely unknown so it's best to have some reservations when evaluating this. To begin with the Pantheon didn't even manage to discover any sort of significant part of the universe so the damage of the fight could very well have been contained to this small part of the Great Dark that the Titans had explored.
I haven't searched for any definitions, thank you. I've been aware of the meaning of the term extradimensional for over a decade now. As I already stated there is a very big difference between hyperdimensional and extradimensional. Going off of the term alone isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest that the Nether is more than 4 dimensional.
The nether doesn't exist in any of the universes, this is what Afrasiabi meant by his tweet, the exact opposite of what you're saying. This was further expanded upon in the chronicles which state the the Nether exists outside of the borders of physical reality and parallel to the cosmos. Portals to the Nether can be opened which do allow for the energies of the Nether to seep into the Great Dark. As I already stated up above the nether doesn't even experience quantum superposition like the Great Dark which is what gives birth to alternate realities. The Twisting Nether is just a four dimensional astral universe situated separately from the physical universe.
Just because it doesn't explicitly say that isn't his limit doesn't mean that you can just attach a number an infinite degree higher than the one the authors have stated. A sentence doesn't need to be structured like this: "Argus could potentially destroy the entire universe, but just this one because that's his limit" to be clear. Saying the universe is clear enough already. And I'm not sure how the Archimonde item fits into your argument instead of mine. The argument is about whether or not the word universe can be used interchangeably within the franchise and yet the writers were clearly bothered enough to use the plural - universes. There is a large difference between singular and plural.
@Aurzod Again, these are just wild speculations without knowing anything about the circumstances that surround them. As I stated before the fight's duration and the damage dealt by each individual titan are entirely unknown so it's best to have some reservations when evaluating this. To begin with the Pantheon didn't even manage to discover any sort of significant part of the universe so the damage of the fight could very well have been contained to this small part of the Great Dark that the Titans had explored.
I haven't searched for any definitions, thank you. I've been aware of the meaning of the term extradimensional for over a decade now. As I already stated there is a very big difference between hyperdimensional and extradimensional. Going off of the term alone isn't nearly enough evidence to suggest that the Nether is more than 4 dimensional.
The nether doesn't exist in any of the universes, this is what Afrasiabi meant by his tweet, the exact opposite of what you're saying. This was further expanded upon in the chronicles which state the the Nether exists outside of the borders of physical reality and parallel to the cosmos. Portals to the Nether can be opened which do allow for the energies of the Nether to seep into the Great Dark. As I already stated up above the nether doesn't even experience quantum superposition like the Great Dark which is what gives birth to alternate realities. The Twisting Nether is just a four dimensional astral universe situated separately from the physical universe.
Just because it doesn't explicitly say that isn't his limit doesn't mean that you can just attach a number an infinite degree higher than the one the authors have stated. A sentence doesn't need to be structured like this: "Argus could potentially destroy the entire universe, but just this one because that's his limit" to be clear. Saying the universe is clear enough already. And I'm not sure how the Archimonde item fits into your argument instead of mine. The argument is about whether or not the word universe can be used interchangeably within the franchise and yet the writers were clearly bothered enough to use the plural - universes. There is a large difference between singular and plural.
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Speaking of Argus, his Mythic intermission is now up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bp36tLd8fJE
Apparently, Aman'thul tries to Collapse Time around Argus with his Temporal Blast. However, that doesn't work on Argus, as he transforms into his Red Death Titan state. He kills us, and tries to cast the End of all Things, we interrupt that, his health goes back up to 60%, and we're now fighting Argus in his newly reformed Red state (Which is more powerful than his regular State, btw).
Pretty ******* crazy to tank a Temporal Blast like that...
Apparently, Aman'thul tries to Collapse Time around Argus with his Temporal Blast. However, that doesn't work on Argus, as he transforms into his Red Death Titan state. He kills us, and tries to cast the End of all Things, we interrupt that, his health goes back up to 60%, and we're now fighting Argus in his newly reformed Red state (Which is more powerful than his regular State, btw).
Pretty ******* crazy to tank a Temporal Blast like that...
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Also makes Aman'thul's help useless, considering that Mythic's supposed to be the Canon Version of Raid Fights. Which, tbh, makes sense. I mean, we "kill" Archimonde in the Nether, we stop Azzinoth from claiming Illidan's body for Sargeras, we stop Gul'dan's Ritual, we defeat Kil'jaeden, the Argus fight on Mythic makes the boss seem more intimidating, while also keeping some of his Normal/Heroic mode things, though...with some buffs ups, of course. And, well...it all ends at the same note, with Sargeras' imprisonment. 
Oh, and on Mythic HM, we slay Cho'gal, which ends his arc in WoD.
Oh, and on Mythic HM, we slay Cho'gal, which ends his arc in WoD.
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- #93
So it's confirmed that Sargeras possesses him or smth?
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Seems as though it's more or less a Transformation. Sargeras might just be casting things from the sidelines.
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I think that we've come to a conclusion here, but everyone else may not share this sentiment this time around. For any other unrelated topics though, we should transition over to a discussion thread.
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