Sans Vs Ryuunosuke (7-2-0) (GRACE)

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Okay...thats an insane reach.

It isn't. How do u conventionally dodge an attack from someone who sees their attack hitting you from the future? Literally b4 time resonates with the current... Reaction speed?? Lmaoo

 

[ShionAH]

Again this is pointless, Ryuunosuke's gonna see 2 seconds of that dialogue and close the distance and paste him immediately b4 sans even opens his mouth lmao......

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Sans FRA.

Via?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Again this is pointless, Ryuunosuke's gonna see 2 seconds of that dialogue and close the distance and paste him immediately b4 sans even opens his mouth lmao......

Blud seems pretty evil ngl

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Blud seems pretty evil ngl

Bros gonna pull a smug face and physically show sans he doesn't care

 

[ShionAH]

Bros gonna pull a smug face and physically show sans he doesn't care

"That expression... thats the expression of a badly written anime character"

 

[Catbowtie]

That + Social Influencing

I don't understand.

Again I've already stated Ryuunosuke can foresee his attacks from 2 seconds into the future hitting his opponent. This isn't anything to do with just pure speed bruh we're talking about time stuff which sans doesn't have a chance against.... He also sees opponents faster than him in slow motion due to being a shadow (ie, the guy sees 1 second of action as 5 seconds so his reaction will mean jack since he's ginna be snail pace in ryuunosuke's perception) if frisk is using what he gains from the future to use against sans after dying then that's meaningless as the same was tried on Haine (The same person who has the ability as Ryuunosuke). He has to be doing allat in real current time.

My brother in Christ. I'm not trying to sound condescending or anything but Sans just dodges. I'll dissect each point in bulleted numbers relating to each sentence.


1. This is comparable to Frisk if not inferior to them. In all 10 canonical deaths, Sans attacks the same way.

2. Sans fought someone who had literal control over the timeline and killed them two times. Can you draw differences between Shinpei's and Frisk's control of time?

3. It doesn't matter if Shinpei can see people in slow motion because his Instinctive Action Teleportation is exactly that. Shinpei can't see teleportation in slow motion because teleportation happens instantly.

4. I don't understand this sentence.

You mean after reseting countless times? My guy if firsk has to reset to gert that information then this isn't comparable to someone who's doing that mid battle,i don't see any form of precognition that sans dodges real time attacks from someone who sees the future in combat. That is so incomparable

You're right, it's not comparable, but it yields the same results. Frisk has prior knowledge of all 10 timelines she fought Sans through. Shinpei can see into the future for 2 seconds. Frisk's and Shinpei's prior knowledge yield the same result because they both know what is going to happen in 2 seconds.

I still believe Ryuunosuke will be unaffected due to Shinpei being the mvp with Objective Mode telepathically speaking to him nid battle but I'll count your vote

Can Objective Mode resist Social Influencing that is able to have a cold-blooded murder have a change of heart? Your reasons for Social Influencing not working on Shinpei is null because it simply doesn't apply to Sans' Social Influencing.

While it is a wincon. I believe it's kinda unrealistic to be incon. Sans is not gonna start with using social influencing for like 7/10 percent of the chances these guys fight. He usually starts with cqc stuff or his notable hax, as suh i believe Ryuunosuke jist closes the distance first and slaps Sans to death as that's the more objective case, I vote for Ryuunosuke

Sans is going to start with Social Influencing. Let me break it down for you (Not being condescending)

1. Both combatants start the fight thinking that their opponents wish to cause any amount of harm to whatever thing they hold precious. In the case of Sans, for all he knows, this is another Chara situation where if he doesn't stop Shinpei, he destroys the timeline
   
   
2. Clairvoyance kicks in and tells Sans "Hey man, this guy actually hasn't killed a bunch of people and is actually a good guy!"
   
   
3. Sans tries to talk down Shinpei because he doesn't want to fight (Courtesy of Shion giving us Sans' Weakness)

Therefore, Sans starts with Social Influencing. Even if the fight does continue, Sans just uses his Breaking the Fourth Wall Combat-applicable ability and then just uses Social Influencing. Shinpei will genuinely have to sit there and listen to Sans talk. Angel's descriptions of Objective Mode does not cover what Sans' Social Influencing does, so Shinpei just gets Social Influenced.


Holy crap you guys talk fast. I'll circle around for more comments.

 

[ShionAH]

I don't understand.

I am saying the same thing as you

 

[Catbowtie]

That's not what i said. Sans doesn't dodge attacks mid-combat from those who actively see the future as they fight. Rather he dodges attacks from those who know the future from a fight he won in a timeline and was redo'd due to reset via unknown means, they're two different scenarios. If sans was to dodge Ryuunosuke's attacks, he'd need to have Resistance to Fate Hax as ryuunosuke literally sees his attacks hitting Sans from the future and can change how he approaches whenever.

This is comparable to Frisk. Shinpei "resetting the timeline" is literally using the same words as Frisk "resetting the timeline" Via unknown means is still yielding the same result of resetting the timeline. Unless we are to assume that Frisk is lame enough where they died at Sans' Strongest Attack (which in this situation, Sans wouldn't even do because he knows Shinpei is a good guy) 10 times in a row, Frisk should be adapting to Sans' attacks more and more.


Sans needing resisting to Fate Manipulation makes this match a Stomp. You are proposing that not only Shinpei can move faster than Sans can react to, you are also saying that Sans straight up can't dodge Shinpei's attacks. Unless it is limited by Shinpei needing to walk up to Sans (I.E, Shinpei needing to get to Sans to attack him), then there's nothing Sans can do.

Again this is pointless, Ryuunosuke's gonna see 2 seconds of that dialogue and close the distance and paste him immediately b4 sans even opens his mouth lmao...... That weakness makes this matchup worse as Sans won't have time to do anything.

Sans dodges (Via Instinctive Action Teleportation) Or, it makes this match a Stomp for the reasons I said before. and is present within this reply.

It isn't. How do u conventionally dodge an attack from someone who sees their attack hitting you from the future? Literally b4 time resonates with the current... Reaction speed?? Lmaoo

By instinctively dodging the attack. Is Shinpei blitzing Sans so fast he can't see him? If not, then Sans dodges using Instinctive Action Teleportation. Seeing 2 seconds into the future doesn't change that Sans will dodge it instinctively. Shinpei seeing 2 seconds into the future will only tell him that Sans is talking, not that Sans will dodge. I feel as though you are misrepresenting Shinpei's Precognition.

If it's how I think the Precognition working: Shinpei sees 2 seconds into the future, he will see that he attacks Sans and Sans dodges.

If it works in what it is represented by Fallen Angel: Shinpei sees 2 seconds into the future and sees that Sans is talking. Using this knowledge, Shinpei attacks Sans, but Sans dodges because of his Instinctive Action Teleportation.

Via?

Soul of Cinder said "FRA" which means "For Reasons Above." Soul of Cinder means that he votes Sans because he agrees with the win condition of "Sans Social Influences Shinpei" I'm assuming that Soul of Cinder has liked all of the comments he has agreed with. So it should be self-explanatory upon further investigation.

Bros gonna pull a smug face and physically show sans he doesn't care

Sans can read the expression of Frisk, who has a perpetual blank face. Can Shinpei hide his expression better than what Frisk's blank face can?

I am saying the same thing as you

Gotcha. Your vote is staying on Inconclusive?

 

[ShionAH]

Your vote is staying on Inconclusive?

How would Social Influencing work? If they become pals or stop fighting is that a win for Sans or Inconclusive?

 

[Catbowtie]

It's a win for Sans because Sans stops Shinpei from fighting


It's better explained by this:

In character, but will attempt to win the battle. Characters will not give up of their own accord. That means a character that is uninterested or sees no chance of winning won't simply leave and characters wouldn't simply become friends with each other. This doesn't prevent a character being made to give up, because the other character manipulates them via things like, for example, mind control, fear inducement, psychological tricks or superhuman charisma.

"Manipulates" isn't the correct term here, but it fits the situation: Sans is talking Shinpei down from fighting him, which can be equated to Shinpei giving up the fight. It only works because Sans has Social Influencing. Sans literally changes Shinpei's mind because of his Social Influencing (I.E, making Shinpei not want to fight him), which then can be counted as a win for Sans. Something something, ask me for elaboration if that doesn't help.

 

[ShionAH]

Changing my vote to Sans then

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

This is comparable to Frisk if not inferior to them. In all 10 canonical deaths, Sans attacks the same way.

What is comparable to frisk? Again i see nothing on Frisk's profile about Precognition. If it's from a reset, wouldn't Sans need to experience a reset b4 he sees through the movements Frisk knows? I don't understand how that works, because he himself doesn't have future sight but It seems he does some sort of action reading to then attack and kill frisk....

That sort of ability is kinda pointless if Ryuunosuke can foresee his stuff hitting which sans doesn't have an option to even if he does predict what someone knows to counter them so ggs to that. He also doesn't need to mive as the guy has a weapon he could jist forsee hitting sans.

Sans fought someone who had literal control over the timeline and killed them two times. Can you draw differences between Shinpei's and Frisk's control of time?

So has shinpei?? Shinpei is fighting someone who can use their abilities to transfer themselves into the past and change his own future, he's also fighting someone with the same ability to loop back in time as he does. The same person can track him in whatever timeline he is in and copy his biology/physiology at the same time to literally know exactly how he proceeds and yet Shinpei still outsmarts them and kills both of them in the end. Sans isn't special lol, Shinpei also matches against those who can control time on a 2-A scale and defeats them with outsmarting them alone, imagine this + having someone who literally sees how sans will proceed from 2 seconds ahead.

It doesn't matter if Shinpei can see people in slow motion because his Instinctive Action Teleportation is exactly that. Shinpei can't see teleportation in slow motion because teleportation happens instantly.

Haha Ryuunosuke sees him teleport 2 seconds ahead and just amps himself to slap sans to death. Eventually he'll get overcomed as I can argue rn that Ryuunosuke has greater stamina, try fighting against a stronger opponent and dodging their attacks effortlessly without precognition when they can extend their arms beyond the height of the effil tower while your body laced with fatal injuries and is passively being deconstructed by simply existing.

You're right, it's not comparable, but it yields the same results. Frisk has prior knowledge of all 10 timelines she fought Sans through. Shinpei can see into the future for 2 seconds. Frisk's and Shinpei's prior knowledge yield the same result because they both know what is going to happen in 2 seconds.

Not necessarily. Shinpei doesn't have the ability to see the future, ryuunosuke does. Through sheer brain power he could determine the moves of those who have seen the future, changed it so shinpei ultimately dies and loses, kniw his location in whatever timeline he spawns in and are actively using his own intelligence against him. Unironically Shinpei doesn't have control over his powers and does what Frisk needs to do with His prior knowledge except Ryuunosuke here fills the gap that Shinpei can't by seeing more than what frisk//sans can.

Can Objective Mode resist Social Influencing that is able to have a cold-blooded murder have a change of heart? Your reasons for Social Influencing not working on Shinpei is null because it simply doesn't apply to Sans' Social Influencing.

Yes. His Objective Mode simply chooses the best course of action when he's faced with a task ahead of him. The guy convinced his enemy who was about to mass kill him after he literally made them lose all their powers to not kill him which is a far greater feat than simpky convincing a mo to not kill again. influencing a literal murderer to stop killing does not equate to him to being able to convince some random guy to not fight against him when they're both in the mindset to fight nor will that stop ryuunosuke from closing 20 meters in a second and send sans flying. I find it ironic, Sans is not influencing someone outside of what he usually influences just as how shinpei wouldn't 'resist' but see through itas social influencing isn't a supernatural ability like fear hax but simply how youre able to affect society and people with your talents lol.

1. Both combatants start the fight thinking that their opponents wish to cause any amount of harm to whatever thing they hold precious. In the case of Sans, for all he knows, this is another Chara situation where if he doesn't stop Shinpei, he destroys the timeline
   
   
2. Clairvoyance kicks in and tells Sans "Hey man, this guy actually hasn't killed a bunch of people and is actually a good guy!"
   
   
3. Sans tries to talk down Shinpei because he doesn't want to fight (Courtesy of Shion giving us Sans' Weakness)

Therefore, Sans starts with Social Influencing. Even if the fight does continue, Sans just uses his Breaking the Fourth Wall Combat-applicable ability and then just uses Social Influencing. Shinpei will genuinely have to sit there and listen to Sans talk. Angel's descriptions of Objective Mode does not cover what Sans' Social Influencing does, so Shinpei just gets Social Influenced.

Given how shinpei is . i believe this is a solið wincon

 

[ShionAH]

I feel like OP keeps adding additional abilities to this character or smth

Like now he suddenly passively kill Sans by destroying his matter??

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Sans needing resisting to Fate Manipulation makes this match a Stomp. You are proposing that not only Shinpei can move faster than Sans can react to, you are also saying that Sans straight up can't dodge Shinpei's attacks

Again, it is literally what his precog is. He can see visions of what his opponent does in the future, view what happens to him in the future aswell as forseeing his attacks reaching the opponent from the future by 2 seconds. Sans has no idea without prior knowledge that this will happen aswell as IA Teleportation can also be forseen by Ryuunosuke meaning he can amplifying his speed to close the distance faster than that happens. His sense of time is slowed here so he has more than the given slowed down 5 seconds to 1 seconds ratio to literally hit sans once. Sans only dodges attacks that have happened in resets by knowing it'll come and is able to achieve the same results 10 times, it wouldn't work the same mid-combat because he doesn't know that ryuunosuje can loop/see the future

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Like now he suddenly passively kill Sans by destroying his matter??

Think that's someone this character fought and not them

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I feel like OP keeps adding additional abilities to this character or smth

Like now he suddenly passively kill Sans by destroying his matter??

??? I did NOT mention that . Why are you lying. All the abilities are on the profile which i have been using. My argument is simply he attacks sans and kills him with a graze immediately b4 sans uses social influceing as you all have stated he resorts to that as a first move which is a more solid wincon.

 

[ShionAH]

Think that's someone this character fought and not them

Then how Resistance to Deconstruction help here?

??? I did NOT mention that . Why are you lying.

while your body laced with fatal injuries and is passively being deconstructed by simply existing.

You did, How is this relevant to Sans??

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Anyway, the speed amp seems to be locked behind his other keys, since Ryuunosuke seems to be the reason behind the speed amp in the first place, I think at least

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

This is comparable to Frisk. Shinpei "resetting the timeline" is literally using the same words as Frisk "resetting the timeline" Via unknown means is still yielding the same result of resetting the timeline. Unless we are to assume that Frisk is lame enough where they died at Sans' Strongest Attack (which in this situation, Sans wouldn't even do because he knows Shinpei is a good guy) 10 times in a row, Frisk should be adapting to Sans' attacks more and more.

Not entirely. Here's why;

• Shinpei's timeline reversal (Not reseting btw) brings his consciousness back to the past into a timeline where the results he wants are reached. (Ie. He goes to a timeline where if he wanted icecream, the eye would ensure he goes to a timeline where he does aka it fulfils his will)
• Shinpei's is not 'unknown'. He specifically needs to die to activate it.
• The situation changes for each loop and gets more recent the more it activates

As such they're similiar but not comparable. When shinpei loops, the destroys the timelines he's in aswell as others on a 2-A scale and creates infinite timelines and ressurects him back into the past where he will suceeed. So sans wouldn't know shinpei is a good guy, infact he'd kbow nothing about shinpei and if he dies omce, it's over for sans entirely as the destruction of timelines would reach him in infinite timelines to come

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

You did, How is this relevant to Sans??

Are you serious shion? It clearly wasn't an argument for Deconstruction hax or him resisting it...... Its validating his stamina, as he's able to fight normally despite his body being negatively impacted by outsources..... Please deduct what I've stated very carefully because everything regarding that paragraph is in coordination to stamina... Not hax‍

 

[ShionAH]

Why are you not counting our votes, I personally didnt see you bring any proof that disproves the initial argument.

Hell his “after death” according to the profile is just the same as Frisk but fancier

It should be 3 - 0 right now I think.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

In all, I believe the arguments of sans literally knowing his opponent resets and dodges their attacks the same way every 10 death frisk has is not comparable to a situation where he meets an opponent for the first time, who he doesn't know who uses precognition as well as puesdo clairvoyance 'NOT RESETS' in mid combat to see what you do and how u proceed b4 it happens. You simply cannot compare mid combat precog to someone having to literally reset the battle to have prior knowledge especially when his opponent knows u do. IA teleportation is meaningless because Ryuunosuke will see that too, in snail pace with his sense of time . Sans resorting to cqc in any other chnace they fight is asking for death, his physical blows and ranged attacks get dodged & countered instantly and Ryuunosuke has a speed amp. The social influencing stuff i could argue with shinpei's other feats and im not able to do much more than respond to threads currently so but I'll let the wincon stay. The wincon is null to some extent as these guys are Supersonic+ starting 20 meters away with Ryuunosuke having like 2 seconds prior knowledge of what sans will do and have enough time to counteract and spank him with amps & his perception of time. That's my conclusion.

 

[ShionAH]

Ohh look at what I found

“Weakness: Shinpei's nature will stop him from wanting to kill others unless he's bloodlusted ”

Mind explaining this, champ?

 

[Dragonite007]

Sannes FRA

 

[ShionAH]

Sannes FRA

Damn long time no see, waddup

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Why are you not counting our votes, I personally didnt see you bring any proof that disproves the initial argument.

My bad, all votes are counted. I was distracted by the arguments.

Hell his “after death” according to the profile is just the same as Frisk but fancier

Its the reason why sans dies if he kills ryuunosuke once. Its more than just frisk stuff too, the guy can go up to 300+ years back and persuade sans parents to not birth him aswell as viewing what timeline he'll resurrect in.

It should be 3 - 0 right now I think.

Pretty sure i stated i vote for Ryuunosuke earlier... Ayo vote manip

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Ohh look at what I found

“Weakness: Shinpei's nature will stop him from wanting to kill others unless he's bloodlusted ”

Mind explaining this, champ?

I assumed they were using the Ryuunosuke key, but again that one can't speed amp lol
Edit: Actually there's a "Same as before." so Ig they both have this weakness

 

[ShionAH]

Pretty sure i stated i vote for Ryuunosuke earlier... Ayo vote manip

Bro I am not even the OP I cannot vote manip

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Sannes FRA

Counted.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Bro I am not even the OP I cannot vote manip

I wasn't being serious hence the smile

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

sans FRA btw

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I assumed they were using the Ryuunosuke key, but again that one can't speed amp lol
Edit: Actually there's a "Same as before." so Ig they both have this weakness

They don't. It says shinpei for a reason. They're two different people but they fight within the same body, it should be removed cuz I didn't put that. + Ive already explained that ryuunosuke is willing to kill those he perceives as enemies

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

4-1 btw

 

[AThe1412]

Tumblr Sexy Man FRA.

 

[Catbowtie]

What is comparable to frisk? Again i see nothing on Frisk's profile about Precognition. If it's from a reset, wouldn't Sans need to experience a reset b4 he sees through the movements Frisk knows? I don't understand how that works, because he himself doesn't have future sight but It seems he does some sort of action reading to then attack and kill frisk....

That sort of ability is kinda pointless if Ryuunosuke can foresee his stuff hitting which sans doesn't have an option to even if he does predict what someone knows to counter them so ggs to that. He also doesn't need to mive as the guy has a weapon he could jist forsee hitting sans.

Frisk doesn't need Precognition to have the same result as Shinpei. For example, if I'm watching a tv episode I've already watched before, I will know everything that happen in that episode. This doesn't give me Precognition, but I still know what will happen "in the future" of that episode. This same situation applies to Frisk. Despite not having Precognition, Frisk is still able to know what happens in the future because they are using their knowledge from previous RESETs.

The Sans-es that Frisk fight is not the same person. They are all different people. Which means canonically, Sans is able to fight someone that has fought him 10 times before and still beat them. This is Sans experiencing the fight for the very first time (against Frisk, who has fought him 10 times before)

In the case of Shinpei foreseeing, Shinpei would just foresee his attack wouldn't hit. Here, let me just read his profile so I can understand...

• Time-Based Precognition (Ryuunosuke is printed & shifted in coordinates 2 seconds ahead in time, as such he is able to see visions of 2 seconds into the future in a split moment[64]. This ability includes speech, natural events like cloud-to-ground lightning, gun fire directed at him or others and even stealth attacks he isnt aware of[65][66][67][68]. He can also forsee his attacks on others making them a sure hit[69][70])

Okay, so I looked into "He can also foresee his attacks on others, making them a sure hit" and it's actually describing Ryuunosuke knowing where someone will be in the future, therefore aiming his next attack to that position. Ironically, in both of the scans, it actually has Ryuunnosuke saying "But I foresaw that shot hitting!" and "My bullets should have hit!" implying that other abilities CAN get around Precognition. Sans would still be able to dodge, since in both interpretations yield the same result: Ryuunnosuke sees Sans dodging to another place, aims for that area, then Sans dodges again because of his IA Teleportation, or Ryuunnosuke DOESN'T see Sans dodges, attacks him, then Sans dodges because IA. Either those two, or I just read the panels wrong.

Ryuunnosuke has a knife, so Sans just dodges away from him.

So has shinpei?? Shinpei is fighting someone who can use their abilities to transfer themselves into the past and change his own future, he's also fighting someone with the same ability to loop back in time as he does. The same person can track him in whatever timeline he is in and copy his biology/physiology at the same time to literally know exactly how he proceeds and yet Shinpei still outsmarts them and kills both of them in the end. Sans isn't special lol, Shinpei also matches against those who can control time on a 2-A scale and defeats them with outsmarting them alone, imagine this + having someone who literally sees how sans will proceed from 2 seconds ahead.

Okay...just the same as Frisk? This is literally all the exact same thing as Frisk down to the E that makes up "Timeline" I don't understand why you brought this up...Can you show me the panel for Shinpei outsmarting and killing both of them?

Haha Ryuunosuke sees him teleport 2 seconds ahead and just amps himself to slap sans to death. Eventually he'll get overcomed as I can argue rn that Ryuunosuke has greater stamina, try fighting against a stronger opponent and dodging their attacks effortlessly without precognition when they can extend their arms beyond the height of the effil tower while your body laced with fatal injuries and is passively being deconstructed by simply existing.

What? Is Ryuunosuke amplifying his statistics enough where he can perception blitz Sans? If not, Sans dodges. Sans can be overcame, but that wouldn't be before Sans uses his Breaking the Fourth Wall Combat-applicable move. Sans would notice himself getting tired, then just use the ability. That's how he canonically used it against Frisk. Frisk was tiring him out so he used his Special Move. If Ryuunosuke can't perception blitz him by this time, Ryuunosuke loses.

Not necessarily. Shinpei doesn't have the ability to see the future, ryuunosuke does. Through sheer brain power he could determine the moves of those who have seen the future, changed it so shinpei ultimately dies and loses, kniw his location in whatever timeline he spawns in and are actively using his own intelligence against him. Unironically Shinpei doesn't have control over his powers and does what Frisk needs to do with His prior knowledge except Ryuunosuke here fills the gap that Shinpei can't by seeing more than what frisk//sans can.

So...comparable to Frisk? He's doing what Frisk is doing? + Ryuunosuke? Uhm...I don't even understand this section. Are you saying Shinpei = Frisk w/ 10 timelines of practice against Sans? Can you show me the scan of Shinpei beating someone who can see the future? I don't even understand man.

Yes. His Objective Mode simply chooses the best course of action when he's faced with a task ahead of him. The guy convinced his enemy who was about to mass kill him after he literally made them lose all their powers to not kill him which is a far greater feat than simpky convincing a mo to not kill again. influencing a literal murderer to stop killing does not equate to him to being able to convince some random guy to not fight against him when they're both in the mindset to fight nor will that stop ryuunosuke from closing 20 meters in a second and send sans flying. I find it ironic, Sans is not influencing someone outside of what he usually influences just as how shinpei wouldn't 'resist' but see through itas social influencing isn't a supernatural ability like fear hax but simply how youre able to affect society and people with your talents lol.

What's to say that Objective Mode wouldn't just tell Shinpei to listen to Sans? What is the "best course of action" supposed to be? Meaning, is the best course of action supposed to be what makes Shinpei beat Sans? Or does it help Shinpei live the situation? If it's the former, does the word beat mean "kill" or does it simply mean "win the encounter." Shinpei can very well "win" against Sans by just not fighting Sans because Objective Mode would tell Shinpei that Sans doesn't even want to fight and kill him, and genuinely means to do good.

Influencing a literal murderer to stop killing does equate to him being able to convince a random guy, even more so. Think of it like this: If Sans is able to convince a stone-cold killer to stop fighting, how easy do you think it is for Sans to convince an actual good guy to stop fighting? I also explained why Sans wouldn't think Shinpei is exactly like Chara. Tl;DR, Clairvoyance would tell him that Shinpei is a good guy. Sans doesn't like to kill good people. That's it.


Sans dodges Ryuunosuke's attacks with IA Teleportation. There's nothing to "see through" with Sans' Social Influencing. Objective Mode would tell Shinpei that Sans is being genuine in wanting to not fight him. Why do you keep repeating that Shinpei is going to "See through" Sans' Social Influencing?

Again, it is literally what his precog is. He can see visions of what his opponent does in the future, view what happens to him in the future aswell as forseeing his attacks reaching the opponent from the future by 2 seconds. Sans has no idea without prior knowledge that this will happen aswell as IA Teleportation can also be forseen by Ryuunosuke meaning he can amplifying his speed to close the distance faster than that happens. His sense of time is slowed here so he has more than the given slowed down 5 seconds to 1 seconds ratio to literally hit sans once. Sans only dodges attacks that have happened in resets by knowing it'll come and is able to achieve the same results 10 times, it wouldn't work the same mid-combat because he doesn't know that ryuunosuje can loop/see the future

What is that statement? "[...] meaning he can amplifying his sped to close the distance faster than that (the teleportation) happens" How is Ryuunosuke moving faster than instant teleportation? Can you show me a panel of him moving faster than someone can teleport? Sans has Instinctive Action Teleportation. He is instantly teleporting instinctively.

Ryunnosuke's sense of time being slowed doesn't matter because Sans' Teleportation is instant. Ryunnosuke can't "slow down" Sans' instant teleportation. Also, you are misrepresenting Sans' dodging capabilities and are completely wrong . Sans does not know what attacks Chara is throwing out. Sans is seeing how Chara fights for the first time. Sans doesn't retain his memories throughout RESETs, he only knows that they have happened. It's just...Angel, your statements are wrong because it is said in the game itself that Sans doesn't remember RESETs. Even when I try to understand what you are saying in a different thought process, it's just wrong again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are saying this:

Sans knows about the attacks Chara is going to make because it has happened in a previous RESET.

This is wrong on multiple levels. Sans doesn't retain information about previous timelines. Even if Sans DID retain information, both Chara AND Sans would be attacking and dodging differently from their previous selves, which would mean that Sans would just straight up behave differently and would still be able to dodge attacks he's never seen before.

??? I did NOT mention that . Why are you lying. All the abilities are on the profile which i have been using. My argument is simply he attacks sans and kills him with a graze immediately b4 sans uses social influceing as you all have stated he resorts to that as a first move which is a more solid wincon.

Sans dodges. Sans using Social Influencing as his first move doesn't prevent his Instinctive Action Teleportation from dodging Ryunnosuke's attacks. Sans is able to dodge someone's attack in the middle of talking. Even if Ryunnosuke amps himself, Sans is dodging because Ryunnosuke isn't amplifying himself to the point where he is perception blitzing Sans. If Ryunnosuke can go faster than Sans' Instinctive Action Teleportation, then okay, but Fallen Angel's statements of "Ryunnosuke amps himself" isn't quantifiable because we don't know how fast he is compared to himself when he isn't amplified. Just vaguely faster. Like I've stated before, if Ryunnosuke isn't perception blitzing Sans, Sans just dodges.

Not entirely. Here's why;

• Shinpei's timeline reversal (Not reseting btw) brings his consciousness back to the past into a timeline where the results he wants are reached. (Ie. He goes to a timeline where if he wanted icecream, the eye would ensure he goes to a timeline where he does aka it fulfils his will)
• Shinpei's is not 'unknown'. He specifically needs to die to activate it.
• The situation changes for each loop and gets more recent the more it activates

As such they're similiar but not comparable. When shinpei loops, the destroys the timelines he's in aswell as others on a 2-A scale and creates infinite timelines and ressurects him back into the past where he will suceeed. So sans wouldn't know shinpei is a good guy, infact he'd kbow nothing about shinpei and if he dies omce, it's over for sans entirely as the destruction of timelines would reach him in infinite timelines to come

I'll address each bulleted point with my own

• Just because they don't use the same words doesn't mean it doesn't have the same result. Frisk is "resetting time" back to a certain point, while Shinpei is "reversing time" back to a certain point. They are the same thing. In fact, you literally described what Frisk does.
• Sans wouldn't kill Shinpei, so this doesn't matter
  
  
  
• This proves that Shinpei's time travel is inferior to Frisk's. I've actually read the scan for this ability and I know what Fallen Angel is talking about. Basically, what Fallen Angel is saying is that Shinpei's time travel has a limit on it. Each time he dies or resets, time moves forward just a little, effectively putting a cap on how far back Shinpei can time travel back into the past. Frisk does not have this limitation. Frisk can complete the entirety of UNDERTALE and reset all the way back to when she first fell into the underground with no restrictions.

The Undertale Cosmology is 2-B as a whole. And what you're describing is exactly what happens in Undertale too. Shinpei doesn't get to..."nullify" Sans' Clairvoyance because Sans' Clairvoyance will work the same in all timelines. Unless Shinpei is like...removing abilities from Sans in each timeline, Sans will always know, across all timelines, that Shinpei is a good guy. That simply isn't how that works. Also, "it's over for sans entirely as the destruction of timelines would reach him in infinite timelines to come" What? Why does this matter? Where did this come from?

In all, I believe the arguments of sans literally knowing his opponent resets and dodges their attacks the same way every 10 death frisk has is not comparable to a situation where he meets an opponent for the first time, who he doesn't know who uses precognition as well as puesdo clairvoyance 'NOT RESETS' in mid combat to see what you do and how u proceed b4 it happens. You simply cannot compare mid combat precog to someone having to literally reset the battle to have prior knowledge especially when his opponent knows u do. IA teleportation is meaningless because Ryuunosuke will see that too, in snail pace with his sense of time . Sans resorting to cqc in any other chnace they fight is asking for death, his physical blows and ranged attacks get dodged & countered instantly and Ryuunosuke has a speed amp. The social influencing stuff i could argue with shinpei's other feats and im not able to do much more than respond to threads currently so but I'll let the wincon stay. The wincon is null to some extent as these guys are Supersonic+ starting 20 meters away with Ryuunosuke having like 2 seconds prior knowledge of what sans will do and have enough time to counteract and spank him with amps & his perception of time. That's my conclusion.

This is all blatantly wrong and misrepresents Sans' abilities, as well as repeating information that has already been addressed in previous messages. He knows when RESETs happens, yes, but he doesn't retain the information of the reset timeline. That makes the entirety of the bolded sentences completely invalid. I've already argued about everything Fallen Angel is proposing, so I'll repeat the information again in this message. If I see any of the same arguments as before, I will simply say "Read previous messages."

• Ryunnosuke would look two seconds into the future and see that Sans dodges his attack. Ryunnosuke uses this information to attack where Sans will be, Sans will dodge again because of Instinctive Action Teleportation.
  
  
  
• Seeing time in slow motion doesn't do anything because Sans is teleporting instantly. It doesn't matter if Ryunnosuke can perceive 5 seconds in 1 second when Sans' teleportation works instantly without any time between "Not teleporting" and "Is teleporting"
  
  
  
• Sans doesn't do close-quarters-combat.
  
  
  
• Supersonic+ doesn't matter because speed is equalized. Ryunnosuke is as slow as Sans now. Sans can react to people comparable to him with Instinctive Action Teleportation.
  
  
  
• Ryunnosuke's speed amplifications wouldn't help him hit Sans because Sans isn't getting perception blitzed (and if he is getting perception blitzed, he still capable of using Instinctive Action Teleportation because he used it when he was quite literally asleep)

As much card-stacking as Shinpei and Rynnosuke has, with the given abilities they have there's literally nothing they can do to amplify themselves to hit Sans because unless there is a multiplier or some equivalent for Ryunnosuke & Shinpei that perception blitzes Sans so hard his IA Teleportation can't cover it, Sans dodges it. I've even seen Adem Warlock say that speed amplification is locked behind another key, so...Sans just dodges Ryunnosuke's attacks with more ease.



In conclusion, Sans social influences Shinpei and there is nothing Shinpei can do about becoming Sans' friend.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yet another an anime soul claimed by sans fra.

This character vs sans is interesting. Might throw him at some peeps from verses I’m more knowledgeable.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

Okay, so I looked into "He can also foresee his attacks on others, making them a sure hit" and it's actually describing Ryuunosuke knowing where someone will be in the future, therefore aiming his next attack to that position. Ironically, in both of the scans, it actually has Ryuunnosuke saying "But I foresaw that shot hitting!" and "My bullets should have hit!" implying that other abilities CAN get around Precognition. Sans would still be able to dodge, since in both interpretations yield the same result: Ryuunnosuke sees Sans dodging to another place, aims for that area, then Sans dodges again because of his IA Teleportation, or Ryuunnosuke DOESN'T see Sans dodges, attacks him, then Sans dodges because IA. Either those two, or I just read the panels wrong.

The reason it didn't hit is because Haine was there.

• His shot did hit shide in the future
• Haine used her own precognition which is the literal same as Ryuunosuke as she has the same ability as he does being the mother of all shadows.
• Haine protrays the information to shide b4 two seconds registered so he could react despite Ryuunosuke forseeing

Aka you don't know the full context of the panel even if you read it. Ryuunosuke's own future sight was read by Haine for Haine to counter it which is why it didn't hit. To counter this ability, You need similar precognition to Ryuu or Resistance to Fate as there's quite literally nothing you can do to conventionallly dodge an attack that hit you ahead of time. This point isnt attacked to the bone (get it cuz sans funni ) My point still stands. The only reason it didn't hit because Ryuunosuke's own future was read in the moment.

This is Sans experiencing the fight for the very first time (against Frisk, who has fought him 10 times before)

How does he accomplish this? I need a reason as to why he's able to do this. Like He doesn't seem to be acasual? Or is it due to calculating his attack pattern? Does he know the future himself? I can bring up a point and some evidence to debunk this once and for all.

Can you show me the panel for Shinpei outsmarting and killing both of them?

Im not able to show scans rn because imgur is buggy. Haine was outsmarted and defeated by Shinpei and his team after he went to attack her main body and despite her using shinpei's own intelligence against him (as she became him literally) and knowing where he is as she placed a mark on him. He was one step ahead which led to her demise.
Shide was the final boss who they ganged up on but barely defeated given enough time for ushio to create a weapon that does as he cannot be conventionally killed. He wanted to steal the eye that gives them power over time to destroy the world.

" I don't understand why you brought this up

Because shinpei has fought against people who can do similar and more than what sans can do to evade attacks from the future against himself, those who not only see the future but know 100% of his plans at all times. Aka sans gets killed here due to the sheer skill difference in that department. I think y'alls knowledge being unknown of what shinpei can do here while comparing it to inferior comparison of skills is unsettling.

Can you show me the scan of Shinpei beating someone who can see the future? I don't even understand man.

With pleasure~ Not only see the future but use his own thoughts against him through sheer calculations and not via his own loops because even those were used against him.

What's to say that Objective Mode wouldn't just tell Shinpei to listen to Sans? What is the "best course of action" supposed to be? Meaning, is the best course of action supposed to be what makes Shinpei beat Sans? Or does it help Shinpei live the situation?

The Objective Mode is a state where shinpei manifests another version of himself (kinda like a spiritual state) who calms him down even in a state where he's basically dead and thinks up countless possibilities and accurate ways to escape the situations he's in. If sans is simply just convincing him to become his friend and 'stop the violence' , then shinpei will agree due to how pacifistic he is, and since sans is such a incredible yapper ryuunosuke will be affected too as he's also easy to convince as long as he's not bloodlusted. Again i believe the Social Influence arguments stand as I think about how shinpei and ryuunosuke usually are but if it's a case where sans would manipulate them then it would go otherwise but since that isn't the case...

What is that statement? "[...] meaning he can amplifying his sped to close the distance faster than that (the teleportation) happens" How is Ryuunosuke moving faster than instant teleportation?

Not what i said. He'd close the distance faster than sans can even think to start teleporting. Ryuunosuke while his tendons smashes, some inner organs failed and on the verge of death can still amplify himself to such speeds that he effortlessly blitzes those faster than him before they can even process what happened WHILE THEY LITERALLY KNEW THE FUTURE.

Sans dodges. Sans using Social Influencing as his first move doesn't prevent his Instinctive Action Teleportation from dodging Ryunnosuke's attacks. Sans is able to dodge someone's attack in the middle of talking. Even if Ryunnosuke amps himself, Sans is dodging because Ryunnosuke isn't amplifying himself to the point where he is perception blitzing Sans. If Ryunnosuke can go faster than Sans' Instinctive Action Teleportation, then okay, but Fallen Angel's statements of "Ryunnosuke amps himself" isn't quantifiable because we don't know how fast he is compared to himself when he isn't amplified. Just vaguely faster. Like I've stated before, if Ryunnosuke isn't perception blitzing Sans, Sans just dodges.

Countered this above. The guy has to activate the ability meaning ryuunosuke has time along with prior knowledge with his precog.
Here's how it'll play out;

1. They meet face to face
2. Ryuunosuke gets a vision of sans simply yapping for 2 seconds
3. Ryuunosuke forsees his attack hitting sans (Again sans cannot dodge this as he doesn't have any ability that lets him either know about it/escape that fate)
4. Ryuunosuke sees sans activating his teleportation ability from the future to evade the attack
5. Ryuunosuke rushing literally sees sans in slow motion (Since he sees 1 second as 5 seconds for free falling objects) Ryuunosuke has a total of at least 10 seconds to simply amplify himself and move so fast that sans cannot process left from right
6. Minecraft skeleton death noises

Just because they don't use the same words doesn't mean it doesn't have the same result. Frisk is "resetting time" back to a certain point, while Shinpei is "reversing time" back to a certain point. They are the same thing. In fact, you literally described what Frisk does.

1. Similar abilities, Shinpei's has more perks and abilities to it. Simple, I never denied this. He doesn't get the ability to go back beyond his opponent was even born and change their past now does he? Stop making it seem like frisk can do 100% what shinpei can with his abilities because I can debate that to death and show the difference lol.

Ryunnosuke's sense of time being slowed doesn't matter because Sans' Teleportation is instant. Ryunnosuke can't "slow down" Sans' instant teleportation. Also, you are misrepresenting Sans' dodging capabilities and are completely wrong . Sans does not know what attacks Chara is throwing out

Im not realizing most of the points validating the teleportation argument cuz they doesn't even make sense & are mostly strawmanning my points and i believe even the youngest generation could figure this out. Heres why; How does perception have anything to do with stopping someone from casting a move? That was simply not what i implied or stated LMAOO. His perception hax makes it so his sense of time will perceive sans in a constant almost standstill for a period of time with sans at that point being in the process of "thinking" to use his hax and at that point ryuunosuke will be perceiving that moment and everything else around him as normal..... It's that simple, if perception hax was all ryuunosuke had, if he can't cross the distance in time then he'll be able to sense sans (with his sensing hax ofc) the moment he teleports to a new location and change his movement there. What's good about that is sans will be exerting himself while ryuunosuke will be experiencing a average sunday afternoon jog since time is slowed and the moment sans decides to stop to either launch an attack or start yapping, it gives ryuunosuke the objective to just end him.

This proves that Shinpei's time travel is inferior to Frisk's. I've actually read the scan for this ability and I know what Fallen Angel is talking about. Basically, what Fallen Angel is saying is that Shinpei's time travel has a limit on it. Each time he dies or resets, time moves forward just a little, effectively putting a cap on how far back Shinpei can time travel back into the past. Frisk does not have this limitation. Frisk can complete the entirety of UNDERTALE and reset all the way back to when she first fell into the underground with no restrictions.

Ummm son listen here, im not being condensing here but.... You do understand that 90% of this wiki who of the following don't;

• Have acasuality type 3
• Have 2-A durability
• Resist all the hax shinpei's ability has including the fate manip stuff
• Resist EE on the scale it's projected

WILL NOT and i repeat WILL NOT survive the initial first loop shinpei enters right? At baseline they're at best the same ability but my good sir please do not take the opportunity to downplay shinpei's abilities for the sake of making a point, it's clear it does more than just reset/reverse time. You won't even be able to figure out shinpei can loop without having 2-A cosmic awareness which no one in undertale does just as how it's simple for monsters to obliterate frisk 10 times despite him knowing future events after solely reseting time countless times.

is all blatantly wrong and misrepresents Sans' abilities,

Womp womp. I don't know sans abilities much. Im attacking what i see on the profile and/or what you all mentioned here/seen in other threads involving sans. And it's pretty ironic you're coming at me for 'misinterpretation' after completely gathering your own thought to assume the abilities of shinpei and ryuunosuke like their precog and time abilities which is far from the truth .

He knows when RESETs happens, yes, but he doesn't retain the information of the reset timeline

So does each and every cast of summer time rendering lol. Haine specifically can tell when shinpei loops meaning she can formulate a plan to seize him at any moment which utterly fail, summer time rendering doesn't just rely on "knowing you can reset" to counterattack, they use brainpower to completely and utterly destroy the opponent, basically think accurate possibilities that'll work despite having a major advantage against you. These guys know both what happened in the past reset and the future one along with having more experience of using their abilities and are actively using it against just a normal guy. It simply isn't comparable to frisk nor comparable to what sans has faced. The downplay is insane here.


In conclusion. Sans just dies here from their first encounter and nothing was attacked but misinterpreted and strawmanned for the sake of downplay. I also sense complete bias to sans side due to how shinpei's and ryuunosuke's abilities are being straight up lied upon without even having knowledge of how they work.

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

I do ask the all the opposition who are for sans to read my counterarguments and reply to them to avoid any feeling of unfairness

 

[Fallen_Angelicx]

All new votes counted btw