Sans (Undertale) VS Oersted (Live A Live)

[FantaRin_The_First]

... Okay, the heck is happening here? I thought this thread was dead honestly. Am surprised that it came back to life.

 

[Comiphorous]

... Okay, the heck is happening here? I thought this thread was dead honestly. Am surprised that it came back to life.

im not really sure. a lot of the things said in this thread aren't exactly apparent on either's profile, and im not really breaking the ice between us to get through with that.

 

[ObsidianCrusader]

actually small building level comes from Mettaton, not undyne. and yes, most if not all hotland monsters are at that level, aswell as some Waterfall and snowdin monsters are at that level aswell. frisk's attack doesn't go up when their's go down, they just slap them as their defence plummets and strangles the life out of all of them. frisk has no magic, never will, and its accepted they never do, and use physical attacks at all times.

Based on what I can find from this wiki, the standard monsters all seem to be of wall-level. Even Tsundereplane, who I expected to have the highest of the standard monsters, seems to be comfortably in the wall-level range.
And what are you basing this claim off of? Are you claiming that even Genocide exclusives, like Undyne the Undying and Mettaton NEO, the former of which has 99 Defense, yet still takes an obscene amount of damage with each attack -- that their stats drop only for a split-second, while being and then shoot back to their regular range?
And now, as for Frisk not using magic, I believe I can debunk that...with one...simple...generally-overlooked and forgotten item...

The Empty Gun.

As I don't need to point out, this gun is quite empty; no bullets. Now you could make an argument that Frisk is just gripping it like a club, and beating their opponent to death with it like the world's worst Cain to the unsuspecting Abel, and to that, I present the Empty Gun's unique animation. Despite lacking bullets, by paying close attention, you can see that it makes an animation reminiscent of a gunshot, accompanied by various star-like patterns. Now tell me, where do we see this particular star elsewhere in the game?

Do you see what I'm getting at? The Empty Gun uses Determination as an ammunition of some sorts and uses it to attack the enemy.
So, I've proven that Frisk is capable of attacking enemies with something OTHER than physical melee attacks. What does that mean? Well, say you were to pick up the Empty Gun and go meet Mettaton. On a neutral run, you attack Mettaton and deal a standard amount of damage. On a Genocide run, you attack Mettaton and get that oh-so familiar, unnecessarily high damage number. But you didn't attack him with a Stick or a Toy Knife, you pointed your Empty Gun at him, and fired bullets of weaponized Determination. It was Determination that killed Mettaton, and thus, a magic-based attack, since Determination is undeniably some subvariation of magic. And that opens the floodgates to the possibility that ALL of Frisk's weapons are influenced in some way shape or form by Determination; a magic component that Frisk alone has, and is not influenced by any specific monster they face. Therefore...it is only logical that it is Frisk's stats -- Frisk's Determination that increases when they attack, and not the enemies' stats that plummet.

Oestered's reaction speed is not any higher than his base speed, meaning in speed equalized sans' reaction speeds are higher as his reaction speeds are higher than his base speed, gaster blasters have a 'higher' speed, meaning they are faster. all of his spells dont have a seperate rating to his basespeed, meaning sans can react to all of it, including his wind spells, they are useless here.

Oh, I disagree with this entirely. Again, I present Amber Storm, and Oersted's ability to dodge simultaneous bolts of lightning. Sans has never reacted to anything as fast as Oersted has, see his death at the hands of Frisk. And Oersted's regular movement speed is fairly average by Live a Live standards. He is fast for a human, but the Demon Lord (Not Demon King; very important distinction there) was able to avoid his attack. (1:20) Now why do I say this? Am I shooting myself in the foot? No...I point this out, so that we may return to the Amber Storm dodge. Oersted is slow enough that a flying foe can avoid him, but his REACTION SPEED is not slow enough that he can't dodge Amber Storm's lightning. Therefore, he is liable for the same treatment you are giving to Sans here.
And now, you would have me at an impasse here. There is no way to GUARANTEE that Oersted can hit Sans. ...Right?
Well, what a perfect segue...

Stamina. You can't deny to anyone that Sans is a lazybones. He only fights back when he knows reality itself is at stake.
And with Oersted climbing two simultaneous mountains, two escapes from the castle's soldiery, a myriad of random battles in the wilderness, including fights with avalanche-causing polar-bears, demons born SPECIFICALLY to kill him, finally culminating in a boss-fight with a Straybow empowered by the Demon King...It's immediately clear that Oersted by and large surpasses Sans in Stamina. Hell, if really wanted to test the limits of the No Limit Fallacy, you COULD say that, since random battles are infinitely redoable, Oersted can actually take an infinite amount of time before having to rest; but no, let's stay with our minimum here.
Now why do I bring Stamina up? It's because it IS Sans' Achilles heel; more so even than his pitiful bulk. It is the entire reason Frisk was able to catch him off-guard and kill him, and with Oersted's vastly superior Stamina, all he needs to do is to outlast Sans. And as I've proven time and time again, Oersted is ABSOLUTELY capable of dodging Sans' attacks, potentially even better than Sans can dodge his.

Sans is on a timer during this battle. Oersted can and will outlast him given the chance, so he needs to kill Oersted before the latter tires him out, or lands a lucky hit. So what can Sans do? He doesn't have anything guaranteed to hit Oersted, and he can't use telekinesis and attack at the same time... ...This is my question for you, because I can't answer that.

All of this is wrong. Oerested does basically die within a single touch to his attacks as he kills someone who does resist his abilities faster than they can react, dont bring up HP, thats game mechanics. speed equalized makes all of Oersted's attacks Supersonic leaving sans' reaction speed at Supersonic+ (roughly, didn't do the math), meaning he can react to literally everything. so unfortunately sans is not a sitting duck, he's more like a terminator duck.

Now, you say that, but I can't find any source that gives me any definite answer. You say Frisk resists Sans' abilities? Based on everything we know about Genocide Frisk, that's basically the opposite of being true. Sans' weapon set is specifically designed to COUNTER Frisk. And even then, it isn't guaranteed. Now would you say being a human grants Frisk a resistance? Well, that's irrelevant, because Oersted is human too, and there's no reason to believe he'd be any different than Frisk in this regard.

Now, I'm just going to say it...it REALLY sounds like you're trying to oversell Sans and downplay Oersted here. Your only source for Oersted is the Vs Battle Wiki, which is a third-party source, while I'm taking my non-mathematical citations directly from Live a Live, and its animations. If speed is equalized, why do you think this would benefit Sans at ALL? If anything, it's a detriment, since speed is one of his only two weapons, besides the aforementioned poison and defense-nullification. (Which you've also contradicted yourself on, numerous times, by saying Frisk resisted Sans' attacks, while also saying Sans ignores resistance.)
So, I'm gonna ask you a question here, and answer it honestly... ...Have you ever played Live a Live, or watched someone else play it? Have you ever watched Oersted perform any of his techs? Because I've played Undertale, and I've been destroyed by Sans. I've learned all that he can do, and can reliably counter him now. I'm not underselling him by any means by suggesting that he's only difficult because of his two special abilities.

Now, as for what you said about game mechanics, remember what game we're talking about here. This is Undertale, where gameplay IS your lore. Every choice you make is simultaneously gameplay and story. LV, EXP those are both story-concepts, and by extension, the HP that Love grants. So yes. HP is ABSOLUTELY relevant to this, since, and I don't need to remind you...Sans has 1.

Im going off of profile, which lists him as 'high' intellegence, if you wish to change that make a crt. also you might want to look at their profiles, since you are seemingly missing a lot of things.

KR is poison damage, its nothing more nothing less. the invincibility-null is just his attacks, NOT kr, kr is the poison, his actual attacks are the IN.

Keep in mind, the only thing that's relevant here is practical experience. Sans' intelligence rating on this wiki is largely in-part due to his worldly and down-to-earth nature. There is only one thing important here though. Is there any knowledge he has that gives him any sort of advantage against Oersted? Sans only has vague ideas on what goes on across timelines, while Oersted has detailed knowledge of the Live a Live heroes. Sans likely only knows Oersted for ONE thing, and that is the sudden and drastic end to multiple timelines. (Which is an ability of his Pure Odio form, which is being excluded in this fight.) Oersted meanwhile would be able to see Sans' battle with Frisk in other timelines. He would know how Sans dies, and what attacks he has available to him. He would know that all he needs to do is focus on dodging and outlasting Sans.
Sans has a high-tec lab and has been implied to work with Alphys on the subject of Determination. But none of this is applicable to any sort of combat.
...So, basically, yeah, I think the format of intelligence in regards to Vs Battles should be revised. I won't deny Sans is a genius, but only in a textbook and mechanical sense, not so much in a tactical sense.


Fine, I'll let you have that last one. The only reason I'm grouping them together as "Karmic Retribution," is because "Karmic Retribution and that invincibility-nulling effect" is too long-winded, and KR is more simple. It really doesn't make a difference though.

im not really breaking the ice between us to get through with that.

Hey, I'm down for a friendly and civil discussion if you are. ...It sounds like you aren't, but the offer's still there. I'm not that unapproachable, I like to think I'm pretty friendly.

 

[ObsidianCrusader]

... Okay, the heck is happening here? I thought this thread was dead honestly. Am surprised that it came back to life.

...Wait is it weird to respond to a month-old thread? I'm not really familiar with forum-culture. Is that "necroing?" Shoot, I always do that unintentionally...

Well, to put it simply, I just wanted to bring up some of Oersted's feats that I believe sway this battle in his favor. Such as Razor Sonic being able to hit Sans, and Oersted having greater reaction speed, by virtue of dodging Straybow's "Amber Storm" attack, which is multiple consecutive lightning strikes, nullifying Sans' biggest advantage in combat, being his evasiveness.

And to make it even simpler than that...This battle basically boils down to a question. "Who can outlast who?" I believe with Oersted's immensely superior stamina, literally lightning-fast reactions, and not dying when exposed to a stiff breeze, makes the answer to that question "Oersted."

 

[Comiphorous]

Based on what I can find from this wiki, the standard monsters all seem to be of wall-level. Even Tsundereplane, who I expected to have the highest of the standard monsters, seems to be comfortably in the wall-level range.

royal guards, Pyrope, Astigmatism, temmie, shyren, and Aaron all sit in small building level, and they're fodder monsters.

The Empty Gun.

I'm not even going to get into this, this isn't magic either. its a theory without any solid canon evidence backing it up. its likely frisk hitting their opponent multiple times with the gun, like they do with the tough glove and the notebook. moving on.

Oh, I disagree with this entirely. Again, I present Amber Storm, and Oersted's ability to dodge simultaneous bolts of lightning. Sans has never reacted to anything as fast as Oersted has, see his death at the hands of Frisk. And Oersted's regular movement speed is fairly average by Live a Live standards. He is fast for a human, but the Demon Lord (Not Demon King; very important distinction there) was able to avoid his attack. (1:20) Now why do I say this? Am I shooting myself in the foot? No...I point this out, so that we may return to the Amber Storm dodge. Oersted is slow enough that a flying foe can avoid him, but his REACTION SPEED is not slow enough that he can't dodge Amber Storm's lightning. Therefore, he is liable for the same treatment you are giving to Sans here.
And now, you would have me at an impasse here. There is no way to GUARANTEE that Oersted can hit Sans. ...Right?
Well, what a perfect segue...

Speed equalized, making sans have faster reaction speeds. moving on.

Stamina. You can't deny to anyone that Sans is a lazybones. He only fights back when he knows reality itself is at stake.
And with Oersted climbing two simultaneous mountains, two escapes from the castle's soldiery, a myriad of random battles in the wilderness, including fights with avalanche-causing polar-bears, demons born SPECIFICALLY to kill him, finally culminating in a boss-fight with a Straybow empowered by the Demon King...It's immediately clear that Oersted by and large surpasses Sans in Stamina. Hell, if really wanted to test the limits of the No Limit Fallacy, you COULD say that, since random battles are infinitely redoable, Oersted can actually take an infinite amount of time before having to rest; but no, let's stay with our minimum here.
Now why do I bring Stamina up? It's because it IS Sans' Achilles heel; more so even than his pitiful bulk. It is the entire reason Frisk was able to catch him off-guard and kill him, and with Oersted's vastly superior Stamina, all he needs to do is to outlast Sans. And as I've proven time and time again, Oersted is ABSOLUTELY capable of dodging Sans' attacks, potentially even better than Sans can dodge his.

Sans is on a timer during this battle. Oersted can and will outlast him given the chance, so he needs to kill Oersted before the latter tires him out, or lands a lucky hit. So what can Sans do? He doesn't have anything guaranteed to hit Oersted, and he can't use telekinesis and attack at the same time... ...This is my question for you, because I can't answer that.

Stamina doesn't matter here when he almost one shots his opponent.

He can outlast but so can frisk, who dies many. many. many times before getting to kill him. and he has many things to hit Oestered reliably. its called telekenesis spam, if he throws frisk down twice in the same place your almost guaranteed to take damage, with no way to avoid it. sans also can just screw with their mind by teleporting them rapidly throwing attacks at them. he does this in character, so there's another way.

Keep in mind, the only thing that's relevant here is practical experience. Sans' intelligence rating on this wiki is largely in-part due to his worldly and down-to-earth nature. There is only one thing important here though. Is there any knowledge he has that gives him any sort of advantage against Oersted? Sans only has vague ideas on what goes on across timelines, while Oersted has detailed knowledge of the Live a Live heroes. Sans likely only knows Oersted for ONE thing, and that is the sudden and drastic end to multiple timelines. (Which is an ability of his Pure Odio form, which is being excluded in this fight.) Oersted meanwhile would be able to see Sans' battle with Frisk in other timelines. He would know how Sans dies, and what attacks he has available to him. He would know that all he needs to do is focus on dodging and outlasting Sans.
Sans has a high-tec lab and has been implied to work with Alphys on the subject of Determination. But none of this is applicable to any sort of combat.
...So, basically, yeah, I think the format of intelligence in regards to Vs Battles should be revised. I won't deny Sans is a genius, but only in a textbook and mechanical sense, not so much in a tactical sense.

Anything Oestered is going to do, sans will immediately read their face and know whats about to happen, so yes, it does give him an advantage on knowing what's about to happen next. if he sees them about to use a spell? counter it with telekinesis. oestered isn't gonna have any rest period when sans is going to know what about to happen every time, and attack accordingly.

 

[ObsidianCrusader]

royal guards, Pyrope, Astigmatism, temmie, shyren, and Aaron all sit in small building level, and they're fodder monsters.

Okay, this seems to be more scaling to other monsters than anything else, which, again, is irrelevant. Since the stats represent the power of a monster's SOUL, and not their physical abilities.

I'm not even going to get into this, this isn't magic either. its a theory without any solid canon evidence backing it up. its likely frisk hitting their opponent multiple times with the gun, like they do with the tough glove and the notebook. moving on.

Funny -- I don't recall you backing up any of your claims with "solid canon evidence."
And it's not really a theory if the animation unique to this weapon HAS the symbol for Determination, which appears in both the Save Points, and Angel of Death Asriel's "SAVE the World" section. It's a connection and a reasonable explanation for what would otherwise be explanation-less. Do you actually believe it has Determination symbols just for the hell of it, when other weapons with unique animations like the Torn Notebook don't?
And this isn't a shotgun or rifle. It's not some long-stock barrel you could use as a club. It's a short-grip cowboy revolver. You don't beat someone with a revolver, I was being sarcastic, and especially not when a visible gunshot animation is displayed when attacking.

Speed equalized, making sans have faster reaction speeds. moving on.

So let me get this straight...Oersted's natural reaction speed, the lightning dodging feat, is naturally higher than Sans' dodging feats. So you equalize Oersted's feat, but DON'T do the same for Sans? On a related note, you still haven't answered my suspicion on you downplaying Oersted while overselling Sans. Or are you just joking around and I'm taking it seriously?

Stamina doesn't matter here when he almost one shots his opponent.

He can outlast but so can frisk, who dies many. many. many times before getting to kill him. and he has many things to hit Oestered reliably. its called telekenesis spam, if he throws frisk down twice in the same place your almost guaranteed to take damage, with no way to avoid it. sans also can just screw with their mind by teleporting them rapidly throwing attacks at them. he does this in character, so there's another way.

And here, you're overselling Sans again. So let me repeat what I said yesterday. Sans only one-shots his opponent if they bumble into his attacks and don't escape in time. Frisk never stands still when fighting Sans, so why would Oersted? Why would he just sit there and take Sans' attack, when he's EXPLICITLY BEEN SHOWN to be capable of dodging attacks MUCH faster than Sans'?
Oersted is faster than Frisk, due to having actual combat training, as well as a lightning-dodging feat that isn't telegraphed by a large, flickering red light. Again...you're lowballing him.
Everything Sans does is reactable, and there is always a way to avoid damage. I've gone through Sans' battle more times than I can count. (I can't count that high, 'cause I'm kinda dumb, but let's ignore that for now.) And now, I want to go back to a previous point...Screwing with their mind. Firstly, you do realize teleporting and attacking randomly with the goal of disorienting his opponent will only exhaust Sans and help Oersted in the end? And secondly...Oersted has dealt with mindfuck characters before. EVERY demon leading up to his final battle with Straybow was designed off human fears, and thus, designed to **** with his head. And he defeated them all. What makes you think Sans would have better luck?

Anything Oestered is going to do, sans will immediately read their face and know whats about to happen, so yes, it does give him an advantage on knowing what's about to happen next. if he sees them about to use a spell? counter it with telekinesis. oestered isn't gonna have any rest period when sans is going to know what about to happen every time, and attack accordingly.

And this...for the first time...is the only reply you've made that made me genuinely squint and scratch my head in utter disbelief. "Read their face?" You think body language makes Sans better at reading his opponent than near-omniscience? If this is just a continuation of the angry fish man joke, now's the time to drop the act and laugh.

 

[Comiphorous]

Okay, this seems to be more scaling to other monsters than anything else, which, again, is irrelevant. Since the stats represent the power of a monster's SOUL, and not their physical abilities.

yes. everyone in the verse goes down a large scaling chain... which either goes to chara, frisk, or mettaton...

Funny -- I don't recall you backing up any of your claims with "solid canon evidence."
And it's not really a theory if the animation unique to this weapon HAS the symbol for Determination, which appears in both the Save Points, and Angel of Death Asriel's "SAVE the World" section. It's a connection and a reasonable explanation for what would otherwise be explanation-less. Do you actually believe it has Determination symbols just for the hell of it, when other weapons with unique animations like the Torn Notebook don't?
And this isn't a shotgun or rifle. It's not some long-stock barrel you could use as a club. It's a short-grip cowboy revolver. You don't beat someone with a revolver, I was being sarcastic, and especially not when a visible gunshot animation is displayed when attacking.

Because half the things you have said have gone against both of their profiles, or basic rules of the site. again, theory.

So let me get this straight...Oersted's natural reaction speed, the lightning dodging feat, is naturally higher than Sans' dodging feats. So you equalize Oersted's feat, but DON'T do the same for Sans? On a related note, you still haven't answered my suspicion on you downplaying Oersted while overselling Sans. Or are you just joking around and I'm taking it seriously?

this is you not reading the profiles or the rules. speed equalized makes their base fighting speed equalized to the slower fighter, which is Oestered in this case being supersonic, Sans is Hypersonic with Hypersonic+ reactions, equalize speed sans is now supersonic with supersonic+ reactions, he's lolreacting to everything.

Oestered has no other speed rating other than 'supersonic', his reactions nor his actual attacks are faster than that.

And here, you're overselling Sans again. So let me repeat what I said yesterday. Sans only one-shots his opponent if they bumble into his attacks and don't escape in time. Frisk never stands still when fighting Sans, so why would Oersted? Why would he just sit there and take Sans' attack, when he's EXPLICITLY BEEN SHOWN to be capable of dodging attacks MUCH faster than Sans'?

Sans almost one shots because he kills people who resist his attacks within moments of touching his attacks, this speeds up the process for them. and don't mention speeds here when speed is equalized.

Oersted is faster than Frisk, due to having actual combat training, as well as a lightning-dodging feat that isn't telegraphed by a large, flickering red light. Again...you're lowballing him.

Speed equalized, those feats mean nothing here.

Everything Sans does is reactable, and there is always a way to avoid damage. I've gone through Sans' battle more times than I can count. (I can't count that high, 'cause I'm kinda dumb, but let's ignore that for now.) And now, I want to go back to a previous point...Screwing with their mind. Firstly, you do realize teleporting and attacking randomly with the goal of disorienting his opponent will only exhaust Sans and help Oersted in the end? And secondly...Oersted has dealt with mindfuck characters before. EVERY demon leading up to his final battle with Straybow was designed off human fears, and thus, designed to **** with his head. And he defeated them all. What makes you think Sans would have better luck?

because sans is smarter and can easily hold Oerested down with telekinesis? you make it sound like he has no chance here despite the fact he basically cripples them with one attack.

And this...for the first time...is the only reply you've made that made me genuinely squint and scratch my head in utter disbelief. "Read their face?" You think body language makes Sans better at reading his opponent than near-omniscience? If this is just a continuation of the angry fish man joke, now's the time to drop the act and laugh.

Information Analysis (Could tell how many times Frisk died by looking at their expressions and that Frisk tried to spare him) read their profiles for once.

also, Oestered is never Omniscient, even in their true form, so that doesn't even make sense.

 

[Comiphorous]

so anyways, to close this all off, I'll be listing all of sans' CONFIRMED advantages here;

sans ******* annihilates their soul due to them lacking soul resistance, and him murdering people with soul resistance within seconds

Oersted has never fought anyone with danmaku like sans', making him incapable of fighting sans at his peak.

sans has superior reaction speeds and LS, making it near impossible for Oersted to even hit sans in the first place

sans has the means to know what Oersted is up to by glancing up at them, making any surprise attack near impossible. (if he can tell how many times you've died through time travel, he can tell what your about to attack him with)

sans has superior range, which speaks for itself why its an advantage.

unlike Oersted, none of sans' moves have a charge up, limiting Oersted's moves even more, as he risks dying trying.

oersted simply cant reliably fight this. which is why sans wins.

 

[ObsidianCrusader]

yes. everyone in the verse goes down a large scaling chain... which either goes to chara, frisk, or mettaton...

I don't think Chara is even applicable to the same standards of scaling as everyone else. Regardless, I see scaling as a very slippery slope, and prefer to avoid it, unless there's solid reason to include it, such as "Character B survives being thrown into the sun, while Character A is able to defeat Character B. Therefore Character A's strength exceeds that of the sun's." That is what I consider to be a logical and fair use of scaling. Just because Mettaton can burst through a metal wall, does not necessarily mean that the Rabbit+Dragon guards can do the same, even if they have the same Attack stat. (Also because bursting through a wall is a physical feat, and monsters attack with magic bullets.)

Because half the things you have said have gone against both of their profiles, or basic rules of the site. again, theory.

Ah, but keep in mind, neither of their profiles are comprehensive lists on what they are capable of. I'm taking my information directly from the games -- the source material, a primary source, which is, by definition, more reliable than a secondary source.
As well, I want you to keep in mind, we know next to nothing about Sans. He fights you once, and never explains what Karmic Retribution is, never explains why he's there, and never explains what Frisk can do to resist his attacks. Everything we know is theory by your definition. We just link it all together through basic logic and connections. The Empty Gun is no different, especially since, if it WAS being used as a melee weapon, it WOULDN'T have the animation that it does. Look at the Torn Notebook. Its power is pitiful, and has a simple animation of the book spinning in place, rather than something dramatic like it opening and numbers and words flying out. I could believe Frisk is slapping someone with the notebook. The Empty Gun features a gunshot and Determination symbols. By your definition, yes, it's a theory, but so is EVERYTHING we know about Undertale's battle system. If we were to disregard that, Sans hits like a wet noodle, and you wouldn't like that, would you...?

this is you not reading the profiles or the rules. speed equalized makes their base fighting speed equalized to the slower fighter, which is Oestered in this case being supersonic, Sans is Hypersonic with Hypersonic+ reactions, equalize speed sans is now supersonic with supersonic+ reactions, he's lolreacting to everything.

Oestered has no other speed rating other than 'supersonic', his reactions nor his actual attacks are faster than that.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. "Basic Fighting Speed" in this case has a definitive answer for Oersted. The attack, "Cut One Way." A basic sword-slash with nothing spectacular about it. That is Oersted's base fighting speed, and he is STILL capable of dodging lightning, which, if I must remind you, IS FASTER THAN ANYTHING Sans has been shown dodging. If you would equalize this, then Oersted is still reactively on par with Sans, while physically outclassing him to boot.
Now look, I get that you like Sans, but you can't keep trying to twist the rules in his favor, and brush under the rug everything that works against him, because that's really what it seems like you're doing.

Sans almost one shots because he kills people who resist his attacks within moments of touching his attacks, this speeds up the process for them. and don't mention speeds here when speed is equalized.

And you haven't explained how Frisk "resists" his attacks, while at the same time Sans "ignores defense." Make up your mind.

because sans is smarter and can easily hold Oerested down with telekinesis? you make it sound like he has no chance here despite the fact he basically cripples them with one attack.

Which he can't do, because he can't attack and use telekinesis at the same time. And Sans has never been shown "holding" someone down. He throws them in quick and short bursts. You're describing an action he's never fully done in canon and we don't know if he even can do.
I'm not making it out to seem Sans has no chance. What I mean to say is that Oersted can counter what Sans can do effectively and consistently. But you're ignoring that. In fact, you keep dodging my questions and never fully address my points in any way other than (Well, Sans can dodge and Oersted can't, because he just can.)
And again, while Sans might be smarter in a textbook sense, there is no indication he is smarter in a tactical sense.

Information Analysis (Could tell how many times Frisk died by looking at their expressions and that Frisk tried to spare him) read their profiles for once.

Hah...nice try. See, what we do know about Sans is that, while he has only a vague idea on what happens in other timelines, what he is consistently shown to know is that the human is capable of resetting, via timelines stopping and starting. Sans knows how many times Frisk has died, simply because a timeline had just ended. Meanwhile, take the times when Frisk resets after sparing Sans, versus the times when Frisk resets just after killing Sans. In the former, Frisk would be furious, betrayed; this WOULD be clearly shown on their face. While in the latter, Frisk, knowing they can kill Sans, and having resetted just for the satisfaction of fighting and killing him again, would have a look of smug, sadistic pride. My point is, Sans doesn't read their face in any situation other than the last two examples; he's just taunting Frisk to anger them, and eventually drive them into quitting out of frustration. (Which his "special attack" is based off of as well.)
And before you say anything on how this is just a "theory," I want to ask you...Is Sans' dialogue when used in a mocking tone really the most reliable source? Are you really sure if he's telling the truth, or just bullshitting and trying to belittle the human?
I do read the profiles. And I also have a grasp on the way their dialogue is chosen and what significance they have. You're cherry-picking your information, and I politely ask you to be more fair to BOTH combatants.

also, Oestered is never Omniscient, even in their true form, so that doesn't even make sense.

I didn't say omniscience. I said near-omniscience. Oersted doesn't know everything, but he has been shown to know more, and in more detail than Sans.

sans ******* annihilates their soul due to them lacking soul resistance, and him murdering people with soul resistance within seconds

Unproven and unconfirmed. This is your responsibility to back up I might add.

Oersted has never fought anyone with danmaku like sans', making him incapable of fighting sans at his peak.

Lightning barrages. And you say that as though Sans' attack patterns are event that disorienting.

sans has superior reaction speeds and LS, making it near impossible for Oersted to even hit sans in the first place

And pathetically lower stamina, meaning those "superior reaction speeds" are going to dull, just like they did against Frisk.

sans has the means to know what Oersted is up to by glancing up at them, making any surprise attack near impossible. (if he can tell how many times you've died through time travel, he can tell what your about to attack him with)

Oersted doesn't have a list of his attacks and their nuances written on their face. Visible anger is different than a detailed battle plan. Meanwhile, Oersted would know what Sans' weaknesses are through his own information analysis.

sans has superior range, which speaks for itself why its an advantage.

Considering Oersted has ranged attacks as well, most with an AoE effect, this point is irrelevant.

unlike Oersted, none of sans' moves have a charge up, limiting Oersted's moves even more, as he risks dying trying.

Gaster Blasters do need to charge...

oersted simply cant reliably fight this. which is why sans wins.

Now tell me...WHAT about Sans' battlefield performance makes you think he is in ANY WAY reliable? Even more so than his opponent?

 

[ObsidianCrusader]

Now look, it's clear I'm not getting anywhere, and it's clear you're not going to back down so, rather than keep spamming this thread, I'll stop for now. That said, for anyone reading this, I hope you've taken the points I've made into consideration as to why I think Oersted would win this.

Oh, and of course...never be afraid to look for information in places other than where it's easy and convenient. You'd be surprised on what you can find.

 

[Comiphorous]

I don't think Chara is even applicable to the same standards of scaling as everyone else. Regardless, I see scaling as a very slippery slope, and prefer to avoid it, unless there's solid reason to include it, such as "Character B survives being thrown into the sun, while Character A is able to defeat Character B. Therefore Character A's strength exceeds that of the sun's." That is what I consider to be a logical and fair use of scaling. Just because Mettaton can burst through a metal wall, does not necessarily mean that the Rabbit+Dragon guards can do the same, even if they have the same Attack stat. (Also because bursting through a wall is a physical feat, and monsters attack with magic bullets.)

Everyone's scaled based off their stats. (except for sans, who stays as human level for uh... idk lol) Most ruin monsters being the lowest stats scale to chara's fall, for example. and, everyone physically attacks each other so not sure why you'd bring up the fact that they fight with magic when everyone takes magic as physical hits.

Ah, but keep in mind, neither of their profiles are comprehensive lists on what they are capable of. I'm taking my information directly from the games -- the source material, a primary source, which is, by definition, more reliable than a secondary source.
As well, I want you to keep in mind, we know next to nothing about Sans. He fights you once, and never explains what Karmic Retribution is, never explains why he's there, and never explains what Frisk can do to resist his attacks. Everything we know is theory by your definition. We just link it all together through basic logic and connections. The Empty Gun is no different, especially since, if it WAS being used as a melee weapon, it WOULDN'T have the animation that it does. Look at the Torn Notebook. Its power is pitiful, and has a simple animation of the book spinning in place, rather than something dramatic like it opening and numbers and words flying out. I could believe Frisk is slapping someone with the notebook. The Empty Gun features a gunshot and Determination symbols. By your definition, yes, it's a theory, but so is EVERYTHING we know about Undertale's battle system. If we were to disregard that, Sans hits like a wet noodle, and you wouldn't like that, would you...?

Uh, too bad i am forced to go by their profile ratings, no matter what you say here, unless you make a CRT on it and add it, im ignoring it. again, going on about the empty gun = magic wouldn't even matter since... everyone takes magic as physical hits... so they're taking physical damage regardless.

I don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. "Basic Fighting Speed" in this case has a definitive answer for Oersted. The attack, "Cut One Way." A basic sword-slash with nothing spectacular about it. That is Oersted's base fighting speed, and he is STILL capable of dodging lightning, which, if I must remind you, IS FASTER THAN ANYTHING Sans has been shown dodging. If you would equalize this, then Oersted is still reactively on par with Sans, while physically outclassing him to boot.
Now look, I get that you like Sans, but you can't keep trying to twist the rules in his favor, and brush under the rug everything that works against him, because that's really what it seems like you're doing.

this is you ignoring basic speed equalized rules and profiles, so let me get it through to you. HE IS SUPERSONIC IN THIS KEY. HE DOES NOT HAVE A SEPERATE RATING FOR HIS REACTION SPEEDS. make a crt if you want to add that though. and if you wanna bring that up just remember sans speedblitzes without speed equalized.

And you haven't explained how Frisk "resists" his attacks, while at the same time Sans "ignores defense." Make up your mind.

Would you think of that? a hax can be resisted... and the hax can also ignore durability??? THE HORROR! sans ignores durability and risk resists that durability negation, and still eats shit.

Unproven and unconfirmed. This is your responsibility to back up I might add.

You want me to prove that someone who doesn't resist a hax that ignores durability eats shit being hit with it? I dont need to explain the abc's to you, you should be able to understand that.

Lightning barrages. And you say that as though Sans' attack patterns are event that disorienting.

Lightning Barrage = bone parkour???? not the same thing.

And pathetically lower stamina, meaning those "superior reaction speeds" are going to dull, just like they did against Frisk.

As if they survive that long. Flowey who had infinite tries to kill sans never got passed him, and he has superior stamina aswell.

Oersted doesn't have a list of his attacks and their nuances written on their face. Visible anger is different than a detailed battle plan. Meanwhile, Oersted would know what Sans' weaknesses are through his own information analysis.

Frisk doesn't have 'im a time traveler and i've killed 36 people' on their face either but at a glance he suddenly knows that. go figure bud.

Meanwhile, Oersted would know what Sans' weaknesses are through his own information analysis.

knowing he can outlast his opponent will help him from being nearly one shot how?

Considering Oersted has ranged attacks as well, most with an AoE effect, this point is irrelevant.

And sans has dozens of meters on basically everything... while oerstred has several dozens of meters, he outranges here no matter what you say.

Gaster Blasters do need to charge...


Now tell me...WHAT about Sans' battlefield performance makes you think he is in ANY WAY reliable? Even more so than his opponent?

No they dont. they appear and near instantly fire after words. there is no charge.


Outskilled flowey, who had infinite tries to beat him, and didn't even lose to him.

 

[GyroNutz]

Ok, clarifying a few things here:

Oersted was rated at MHS+ before for dodging what seemed to be lightning attacks, such as Straybow's amber storm, but we eventually decided to remove that as there wasn't enough evidence that it was proper cloud to ground lightning. You could argue game limitations and whatnot, but there's no way to really say for sure (aside from hoping the remakes make it clearer).

"Several dozens of meters" is better range than "dozens of meters", for the same reason that several metres is better range than a metre. Sans may have a higher range via teleportation, but we don't know to what extent.

Sans being able to tell how many times Frisk died isn't combat applicable, for the simple reason that he's never shown to change his tactics throughout his fights. There's no proof it's combat applicable. Though I don't remember Oersted having information analysis either.

The speed that's equalized isn't attack speed, it's combat speed. Which for Sans is not explicitly stated, though it tends to be a mix of reaction and attack speed. It could be argued that Sans' combat speed is more likely to be his reaction speed, since that's the speed he moves out of the way to dodge attacks with, which would actually give Oersted the advantage. But personally I think it would be better if Sans' attack and reactions were equalized with Oersted's, with his Gaster Blasters having higher attack speed, otherwise speed equalization would make the slower character faster which should be avoided.

 

[Comiphorous]

The speed that's equalized isn't attack speed, it's combat speed. Which for Sans is not explicitly stated, though it tends to be a mix of reaction and attack speed. It could be argued that Sans' combat speed is more likely to be his reaction speed, since that's the speed he moves out of the way to dodge attacks with, which would actually give Oersted the advantage. But personally I think it would be better if Sans' attack and reactions were equalized with Oersted's, with his Gaster Blasters having higher attack speed, otherwise speed equalization would make the slower character faster which should be avoided.

isn't the faster fighter already equalized with the slower one? or did I miss something?

 

[GyroNutz]

Yeah, it's combat speed that is equalized though by default. Sans has a rating for his attack speed and reaction speed, which both make up but are kinda separate from combat speed.

 

[Comiphorous]

Yeah, it's combat speed that is equalized though by default. Sans has a rating for his attack speed and reaction speed, which both make up but are kinda separate from combat speed.

ah.

considering he can dodge attacks from frisk, you'd think he should get comparable combat speed. but I guess not

 

[Comiphorous]

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