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His defense and attack stats seem to be brought up fairly often despite that being "not what we're doing".
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Sans durability issue
- Thread starter Buttersamuri
- Start date
Jackythejack
They/Them- 20,020
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It seems like it's being brought up to downgrade him, but that's not why it's currently where he's at.
Butters is using the stats as an argument to downgrade him
Butters is using the stats as an argument to downgrade him
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It's not the stats alone I'm using. It's the fact stats are unreliable and the fact Sans is in canon below monsters who get one shot by Frisk at their weakest. So it makes no sense that he scales to frisk when monsters above him physically get one shot at frisks weakest. There is absolutely no reason we could or should scale properly. Stats are unreliable, inconsistent, and frisks mechanics work far different to monster mechanics. And Actual feats, Sans lacks any, but monsters above him get one shot even from minute 1.
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Bump
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Bump
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By this, would an Unknown durability be appropriate? Since he has 1 HP, that would mean that any hit done to him is too strong for his level, and he gets one shot. By durability, we arent sure if hes tanked anything without dying.
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Unknown or Wall level at best I believe. I think Unknown is best fitting since we can't properly scale him. People above him get one shot, and he has no other feats that support anything higher.
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Bump
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This is mostly wrong. I'll get down to this soon.
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Bump
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Bump
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There are several reasons sans scales. First is the fact that sans has higher defence stats than shyren, moldsmal and whimsum who can take hits from frisk (with whimsum only dying in one hit if frisk uses every ounce of his strength). Then there is sans having the same attack as defence. Theres the fact that zero determination frisk can have his stats down to zero and tank this feat which would make his stats lower than sans. Snowdrakes mother barely scratching damage on an actual zero determination frisk and being far weaker in ap than any monster in the game.
Sans statement of being the weakest enemy doesn't mean his attack and defence are both weaker than any other monster in the game. It just refers to him having the lowest attack potency and being the easiest to kill without factoring in his other abilities. Other weak monsters with lower attack than sans have defence to compensate and vica versa, hence why his stats are considered the weakest. It doesn't mean he is weaker than everyone in every way. Dealing one damage to frisk alone is 9-A due to being more effective than the exploding oven and durability being comparable to ap in the exact same statement if anything solidifies sans tier.
There is nothing inconsistent about stats. They give an accurate portrayal of characters standings in verse. The only thing inconsistent is the game file stats (non cannon gameplay mechanics), random gags that don't tell you the stats, not being linear (which doesn't make it inconsistent or unusable), hp scaling which is simply a gameplay mechanic which just effects how much punishment someone takes from someone at a similar level, and god tiers where stats don't even matter.
Your argument against the characters with zero defence is flawed. Frisk for starters needs their absolute full power to one shot them and isnt even at absolute zero in determination. They are not below frisk to the point where they are not even the same tier and are still evidently comparable to a frisk who has a decent amount of determination scaling to their attack. Youre also saying that sans doesn't compare because he is stated below characters frisk can one shot, and yet the statement you are using also puts his durability comparable if not superior to them.
One shotting someone with zero defence and another without it does not prove an inconsistency either. Anybody who scales to or below frisk in stats will have zero defence and can vary. There is no set level for everybody with zero defence.
Then there is the argument of frisks stats working differently. Where your only proof is hp which is a completely different mechanic altogether. The only real difference with frisk is that his determination puts him at a similar level to the person hes facing and his stats function as an addon. All this means is that frisk has that attack and defence stacked onto his power increase. It doesn't change the fact that his zero stats when he has zero determination would be logically inferior to monsters with higher stats than him.
Either way, there is no reason to disregard stats altogether and act like sans doesn't have defences above several other characters including the person who performed the feat to begin with along with having his atk being the same as his def. Even if there are some inconsistencies, then it should only be disregarded when it is inconsistent. Throwing out the main and only scaling system given in verse just because it seems contradictory through certain mechanics, resulting in even more unquantifiable tiering is ridiculous.
Zero determination frisk never tanked an attack from undyne or papyrus. The closest to this is when he was being chased on the bridge, where he can take just as much damage as he does fighting undyne in close combat proving he did not have zero determination, on top of being able to run at superhuman speeds. There is also no proof of undyne being several times sans level either.
Sans statement of being the weakest enemy doesn't mean his attack and defence are both weaker than any other monster in the game. It just refers to him having the lowest attack potency and being the easiest to kill without factoring in his other abilities. Other weak monsters with lower attack than sans have defence to compensate and vica versa, hence why his stats are considered the weakest. It doesn't mean he is weaker than everyone in every way. Dealing one damage to frisk alone is 9-A due to being more effective than the exploding oven and durability being comparable to ap in the exact same statement if anything solidifies sans tier.
There is nothing inconsistent about stats. They give an accurate portrayal of characters standings in verse. The only thing inconsistent is the game file stats (non cannon gameplay mechanics), random gags that don't tell you the stats, not being linear (which doesn't make it inconsistent or unusable), hp scaling which is simply a gameplay mechanic which just effects how much punishment someone takes from someone at a similar level, and god tiers where stats don't even matter.
Your argument against the characters with zero defence is flawed. Frisk for starters needs their absolute full power to one shot them and isnt even at absolute zero in determination. They are not below frisk to the point where they are not even the same tier and are still evidently comparable to a frisk who has a decent amount of determination scaling to their attack. Youre also saying that sans doesn't compare because he is stated below characters frisk can one shot, and yet the statement you are using also puts his durability comparable if not superior to them.
One shotting someone with zero defence and another without it does not prove an inconsistency either. Anybody who scales to or below frisk in stats will have zero defence and can vary. There is no set level for everybody with zero defence.
Then there is the argument of frisks stats working differently. Where your only proof is hp which is a completely different mechanic altogether. The only real difference with frisk is that his determination puts him at a similar level to the person hes facing and his stats function as an addon. All this means is that frisk has that attack and defence stacked onto his power increase. It doesn't change the fact that his zero stats when he has zero determination would be logically inferior to monsters with higher stats than him.
Either way, there is no reason to disregard stats altogether and act like sans doesn't have defences above several other characters including the person who performed the feat to begin with along with having his atk being the same as his def. Even if there are some inconsistencies, then it should only be disregarded when it is inconsistent. Throwing out the main and only scaling system given in verse just because it seems contradictory through certain mechanics, resulting in even more unquantifiable tiering is ridiculous.
Zero determination frisk never tanked an attack from undyne or papyrus. The closest to this is when he was being chased on the bridge, where he can take just as much damage as he does fighting undyne in close combat proving he did not have zero determination, on top of being able to run at superhuman speeds. There is also no proof of undyne being several times sans level either.
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And also regarding future arguments involving inconsistencies with stats. Take note that basically every monster in the underground is comparable. I briefly went over this in the town level downgrade thread.
The only time one shotting could happen is introducing a top tier monster to a bottom tier monster. And even then it wouldnt be casual (unless you bring in undyne the undying or maybe mettaton neo)
The only time one shotting could happen is introducing a top tier monster to a bottom tier monster. And even then it wouldnt be casual (unless you bring in undyne the undying or maybe mettaton neo)
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Gonna continue this. Just gonna make response in a bit
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Dude. Seriously? At this point in time?
Don't expect the argument to be the same. There is many different arguments I have towards this.
But if you wanna leave it for so long to begin with, id rather you leave it till i get this blog done. The minimum for sans durability i currently support is at least wall level possibly small building level.
Don't expect the argument to be the same. There is many different arguments I have towards this.
But if you wanna leave it for so long to begin with, id rather you leave it till i get this blog done. The minimum for sans durability i currently support is at least wall level possibly small building level.
XSOULOFCINDERX
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I disagree with the OP.
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