Samus' Speed and Keys

[LordXcano]

Where is this MHS calculation? Scaling from Zebes' gravity is technically calc stacking although to a limited extent, however even if we disregard that it's pretty difficult to say which speed would be which on Earth as it doesn't scale linearly like that.

 

[SomebodyData]

Where is this MHS calculation? Scaling from Zebes' gravity is technically calc stacking although to a limited extent, however even if we disregard that it's pretty difficult to say which speed would be which on Earth as it doesn't scale linearly like that.

It would be calc stacking if we used Samus' speed outside of Zebes or in another occurence and then made a calc, this calc simply finds out the speed of a particular event, like most speed finding calcs.

Uh, except it kinda does? She would need to be MHS normally to move at SS+ on 960x the gravity of Earth.

 

[LordXcano]

I remember a calculation of her Shinespark overcoming Zebes' gravity that might have been MHS. If it is then yeah she'd still be MHS on the wiki and the Mach 50 Frigate Orpheon thing would just be apart of fiction not always being 100% consistent

 

[SomebodyData]

The Mach 50 part probably comes from the fact that they can't animate FTL or even MHS flight speed, with is pretty normal. Not to mention the calc requires cinematic timing making it faulty...

 

[LordXcano]

can't animate FTL or even MHS flight speed

Yes you can, just draw it as a streak going towards something.

http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=35334

Anyway this is a thing. The keys I'm looking for are

MHS (possibly MHS+) | At least FTL (I'll do a calc on this later) | Hypersonic+

The first is her low-tier suits, the second is her high-tiers for dodging EMR waves, and the last is her Samus and Joey incarnation who's best feat (other than the Sun Freeze) is catching a bullet.

 

[SomebodyData]

Or maybe they took the more artisitic choice by actually placing Ridley and Samu's ship in a chase rather than being lazy?

"At least FTL"

Still disregarding Dark Samus' feat and the MFTL+ feat from MPH, the feat that placed her at MFTL+ in the first place

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

and the last is her Samus and Joey incarnation who's best feat (other than the Sun Freeze) is catching a bullet.

We have her Samus and Joey stats?

 

[SomebodyData]

@Azzy idk, also idk why he would feel like seperating it to begin with

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Just wondering, because doesn't S&J Samus have like...an at least 4-A feat, or something like that?

 

[SomebodyData]

Yeah... that white (or black?) hole feat...

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

Yeah... that white (or black?) hole feat...

making one?

 

[LordXcano]

Or maybe they took the more artisitic choice by actually placing Ridley and Samu's ship in a chase rather than being lazy?
"At least FTL"

Still disregarding Dark Samus' feat and the MFTL+ feat from MPH, the feat that placed her at MFTL+ in the first place

I didn't disregard it, I addressed it earlier and you seemed to drop it so I thought you conceded. We have no reason to believe she was booking it to a planet at 1 million+ c because unless we use circular logic we know she would've died doing that. The Dark Samus feat is more likely to be teleportation, as it is explicitly faster than her flight and she can do it with next to no energy over long-distances.
Just wondering, because doesn't S&J Samus have like...an at least 4-A feat, or something like that?

It does, I'm asking for a different Key because we have nothing indicating that it's canon, and even if it isn't the stats are so ridiculously above her usual that it's similar to the Super Mario Galaxy key.

 

[SomebodyData]

I didn't disregard it, I addressed it earlier and you seemed to drop it so I thought you conceded. We have no reason to believe she was booking it to a planet at 1 million+ c because unless we use circular logic we know she would've died doing that. The Dark Samus feat is more likely to be teleportation, as it is explicitly faster than her flight and she can do it with next to no energy over long-distances.
Just wondering, because doesn't S&J Samus have like...an at least 4-A feat, or something like that?

It does, I'm asking for a different Key because we have nothing indicating that it's canon, and even if it isn't the stats are so ridiculously above her usual that it's similar to the Super Mario Galaxy key.

Again, I said that it is a very common trope, are we to say that because Whis didn't crash into King kai's planet that he didn't go at MFTL+ speeds? Or literally every time some character with extreme speeds but crappy reactions (Silver Surfer cough cough) that he slowed down to extreme levels when he landed to Earth several times even when he is shown to be at full rush when he does land?

"teleportation" like i said several times, this only occurs when shes bearten to a point where she can't substain herself (ie she gets beaten badly), why would she limp to Samus during their finl fight in an attempt to continue to fight to only unwillingly become particles?

Actually S&J made a refrence to "Any Objections, lady?" before Other M even came out, so unless Other M is non-canon (tho I wish it was), there would be no way that the book would exist in the non-canon side.

 

[LordXcano]

Again, I said that it is a very common trope, are we to say that because Whis didn't crash into King kai's planet that he didn't go at MFTL+ speeds? Or literally every time some character with extreme speeds but crappy reactions (Silver Surfer cough cough) that he slowed down to extreme levels when he landed to Earth several times even when he is shown to be at full rush when he does land?

Silver Surfer does have good reaction feats though. Hell I calculated the one that boosted him to FTL reaction wise on his page. There's another feat of him individually watching stars move by and calculating their position as he flies around at MFTL+ speeds. Whis also has reaction feats backing him up.

"teleportation" like i said several times, this only occurs when shes bearten to a point where she can't substain herself (ie she gets beaten badly), why would she limp to Samus during their finl fight in an attempt to continue to fight to only unwillingly become particles?

She becomes particles and flies away to regenerate in safety. It's not "teleportation", per se, but I refer to it as such because it's easier than "faster mode of transportation via becoming particles".

Actually S&J made a refrence to "Any Objections, lady?" before Other M even came out, so unless Other M is non-canon (tho I wish it was), there would be no way that the book would exist in the non-canon side.

If Han Solo references the Death Star exploding in Lego Star Wars that doesn't mean it's canon. This likely just means that whoever wrote Other M was inspired by S&J, that doesn't mean it's canon.

 

[SomebodyData]

Silver Surfer does have good reaction feats though. Hell I calculated the one that boosted him to FTL reaction wise on his page. There's another feat of him individually watching stars move by and calculating their position as he flies around at MFTL+ speeds. Whis also has reaction feats backing him up.

Is that why he has MHS reactions on his page?

She becomes particles and flies away to regenerate in safety. It's not "teleportation", per se, but I refer to it as such because it's easier than "faster mode of transportation via becoming particles".

Again, you're not seeing the fact that in the final fight with LS Samus, she approaches Samus as she begins to unstablize and become particles in an attempt to damage her, which makes no sense if shes trying to escape

If Han Solo references the Death Star exploding in Lego Star Wars that doesn't mean it's canon. This likely just means that whoever wrote Other M was inspired by S&J, that doesn't mean it's canon.

Alright, can I ask why you treat it as non-canon other than "because it feels different"?

 

[LordXcano]

Is that why he has MHS reactions on his page?

"Probably FTL going by feats."

Again, you're not seeing the fact that in the final fight with LS Samus, she approaches Samus as she egins to unstablize and become particles in an attempt to damage her, which makes no sense if shes trying to escape

You don't have to use it as a method of escape, it'd be kinda weird for a transportation based power to be solely limited to escape and incapable of anything else.

Alright, can I ask why you treat it as non-canon other than "because it feels different"?

That wasn't the only reason. There's no statements about it being canon (despite that existing for other parts of the series), and there's no references to the events that happened in it in-canon.

 

[SomebodyData]

"Probably FTL going by feats."

Still even if he was FTL+, the gap would be too huge, all things considered

You don't have to use it as a method of escape, it'd be kinda weird for a transportation based power to be solely limited to escape and incapable of anything else.

What? Then why did she begin to unstabilize under your reasoning?

That wasn't the only reason. There's no statements about it being canon (despite that existing for other parts of the series), and there's no references to the events that happened in it in-canon.

Literally no game or manga is stated to be canon, under that logic everything is non-canon.

Yes there was, the "Any Objections" statement but you disregarded it as "inspired by S&J"

 

[Numbersguy]

I think I will have to agree with LordXCano, the feat looks pretty weird too me with it being MFTL, but it it is lightspeed or something, it should be pretty fine.

 

[SomebodyData]

again, i havent really heard a debunk of the feat outside of ignoreing a common fiction trope

 

[LordXcano]

Still even if he was FTL+, the gap would be too huge, all things considered

What about the "scanned billions of stars while moving MFTL+" feat I mentioned? What about the feat where he searches the entire surface area of the Earth in the time it takes to say half a sentence?

Either way, Silver Surfer can survive crashing at those speeds, so it's justified in that case. Samus can neither react or survive a crash like that.

What? Then why did she begin to unstabilize under your reasoning?

Because she was heavily damaged and wanted to play it safer?

Literally no game or manga is stated to be canon, under that logic everything is non-canon.

AFAIK there have been several interviews confirming at least prime to be apart of canon. Other M references the manga heavily, and it was explicitly stated to take place between Super and Fusion, so we know that the manga is canon too.

Yes there was, the "Any Objections" statement but you disregarded it as "inspired by S&J"

I'd need context though. Besides, that wasn't my only objection. Even if S&J referenced Super Metroid or something directly that wouldn't make it automatically canon. There are no references to it in the games we know to be canon, which makes it unlikely that it ever occurred.

Metroid 1 and 2 are canon because they were referenced by Super Metroid in the intro, and Fusion was explicitly stated to be after Super so that's canon too. Other M was stated by the developers to be between Super and Fusion and it draws its backstory from the manga, so we know both of those are canon. The Prime series was stated by the developer to be between Metroid 1 and 2, so we know that's canon as well.

What's missing here is S&J. Other than one line I haven't seen context for, it's never been referenced to in the games we know to be canon nor ever stated to be canon by the developers.

Yes the "Any objections lady" is technically a reference, but it's a retroactive one. Adam Malkovich is the one who spawned that phrase in-universe IIRC, and since Other M was made after S&J by your word that would mean that in order for this to be the games making reference to the events of S&J (thus canonizing it) this would have to take place before Samus ever joined the military, which we know isn't true as the Metroids are referenced as a threat she had bee fighting, not a threat she newly encountered.

 

[SomebodyData]

What about the "scanned billions of stars while moving MFTL+" feat I mentioned? What about the feat where he searches the entire surface area of the Earth in the time it takes to say half a sentence?

Again that would translate as flight speed

Either way, Silver Surfer can survive crashing at those speeds, so it's justified in that case. Samus can neither react or survive a crash like that.

Except he never crashes, hence the entire reaction =/= flight

Because she was heavily damaged and wanted to play it safer?

If she wanted to play it safer why would she be heading towards Samus?

AFAIK there have been several interviews confirming at least prime to be apart of canon. Other M references the manga heavily, and it was explicitly stated to take place between Super and Fusion, so we know that the manga is canon too.

It also references the S&J manga, how ever you called it "inspired" by the S&J manga, why is the manga an exception?

I'd need context though. Besides, that wasn't my only objection. Even if S&J referenced Super Metroid or something directly that wouldn't make it automatically canon. There are no references to it in the games we know to be canon, which makes it unlikely that it ever occurred.

Metroid 1 and 2 are canon because they were referenced by Super Metroid in the intro, and Fusion was explicitly stated to be after Super so that's canon too. Other M was stated by the developers to be between Super and Fusion and it draws its backstory from the manga, so we know both of those are canon. The Prime series was stated by the developer to be between Metroid 1 and 2, so we know that's canon as well.

You... do know that just because something takes place in a timeline does not make it canon, (I.e Broly takes place in the 9 days wait for the Cell Games but is non-canon and etc) Also Metroid 1 isn't in the main canon anymore btw, Zero Mission is.

Yes the "Any objections lady" is technically a reference, but it's a retroactive one. Adam Malkovich is the one who spawned that phrase in-universe IIRC, and since Other M was made after S&J by your word that would mean that in order for this to be the games making reference to the events of S&J (thus canonizing it) this would have to take place before Samus ever joined the military, which we know isn't true as the Metroids are referenced as a threat she had bee fighting, not a threat she newly encountered.

Metroids have existed for a while, even before Samus joined the military. Also this could take place after Metroid ZM and before Metroid 2, you do know that?

 

[LordXcano]

Again that would translate as flight speed

No, if you're flying by an object and keeping track of it then it also counts as reaction speed. Watching a ball fly at me at 100c is no different then flying by at 100c and watching a stationary ball.

Except he never crashes, hence the entire reaction =/= flight

Then obviously he does have similar reactions and we would count it as such. The only reason we don't is because Brevoort said otherwise.

If she wanted to play it safer why would she be heading towards Samus?

You said this was the final battle right? Then she'd fly towards Samus in a hard-to-hit form in an attempt to corrupt/kill her and persue her own goals. It's the last fight of the game, she can't leave now.

It also references the S&J manga, how ever you called it "inspired" by the S&J manga, why is the manga an exception?

When and how? "Any objections lady" isn't a reference to the events within it, as I explained.

You... do know that just because something takes place in a timeline does not make it canon, (I.e Broly takes place in the 9 days wait for the Cell Games but is non-canon and etc) Also Metroid 1 isn't in the main canon anymore btw, Zero Mission is.

The difference there is that the Broly movies were not made by the primary author, it's secondary/non-canon. The Metroid games are made by Nintendo, as so their word on the timeline placements are canon.

Metroids have existed for a while, even before Samus joined the military. Also this could take place after Metroid ZM and before Metroid 2, you do know that?

My point was that it is impossible for Samus and Joey to have its events referenced by Other M.

Adam Malkovich made the phrase before ZM and Metroid 2 took place, so it'd be a retroactive reference to the events of Samus' life. Therefore, it is not a reference by the games to S&J's events, as that doesn't make sense within the timeline.

 

[SomebodyData]

No, if you're flying by an object and keeping track of it then it also counts as reaction speed. Watching a ball fly at me at 100c is no different then flying by at 100c and watching a stationary ball.

Remember the fictional trope?

You said this was the final battle right? Then she'd fly towards Samus in a hard-to-hit form in an attempt to corrupt/kill her and persue her own goals. It's the last fight of the game, she can't leave now.

Then why didn't she?

The difference there is that the Broly movies were not made by the primary author, it's secondary/non-canon. The Metroid games are made by Nintendo, as so their word on the timeline placements are canon.

Nintendo also made the manga, and the timeline was prior to the S&J manga, so by that logic, MP3 and Other M are also non-canon.

My point was that it is impossible for Samus and Joey to have its events referenced by Other M.

Adam Malkovich made the phrase before ZM and Metroid 2 took place, so it'd be a retroactive reference to the events of Samus' life. Therefore, it is not a reference by the games to S&J's events, as that doesn't make sense within the timeline.

Except for the fact that S&J takes place after Metroid ZM, as it mentions both the destruction of Samus' ship, the fall of the first Space Pirates Zebes base, and the second death of Ridley.

 

[LordXcano]

Remember the fictional trope?

tbh, what trope? I rarely ever see someone go towards a planet max-speed. Especially if they're in a ship. They almost always stop before they reach planet or are shown being able to easily react due to vast distance between them and the ground.

Then why didn't she?

Because Samus beat her?

Nintendo also made the manga, and the timeline was prior to the S&J manga, so by that logic, MP3 and Other M are also non-canon.

That wasn't my line of reasoning at all.

Except for the fact that S&J takes place after Metroid ZM, as it mentions both the destruction of Samus' ship, the fall of the first Space Pirates Zebes base, and the second death of Ridley.

Again, that's the manga referencing the games, not vice versa. The Death Star is destroyed in Lego Star Wars, but that isn't canon to the main series.

 

[SomebodyData]

tbh, what trope? I rarely ever see someone go towards a planet max-speed. Especially if they're in a ship. They almost always stop before they reach planet or are shown being able to easily react due to vast distance between them and the ground.

Yes, however sometimes the vastness of the distance isn't enough normally, look at Superman (Post-Flashpoint) and his trip through the entire universe without accidently killing any alien, star, and etc all in two months.

Or, Whis, also traveling in in less than an hour from the edge of the universe without crashing the second he begins to fly.

Because Samus beat her?

Did you play the game or see the fight? She unstabilized at the end of the fight, in the cutscene after being beaten. Dark Samus continued to fight but was destabilized against her own will.

That wasn't my line of reasoning at all.

After re-reading it I see that. So then I state, we know now that

A-Prior to Other M, the statement didn't exist in the video games

B-S&J however, made that statement

Even if its retroactive, the statement comes from S&J, something that the original creator would only know, which implies that Sakamoto did particpate in the manga, making it far more likely to be canon than not.

 

[LordXcano]

Yes, however sometimes the vastness of the distance isn't enough normally, look at Superman (Post-Flashpoint) and his trip through the entire universe without accidently killing any alien, star, and etc all in two months.

Even at the speed he was going it is still very very unlikely that he ever crashed into another planet. Space is too vast for that. Plus does it ever say he avoided killing anything? Hell I'm pretty sure he states he crashed through several black holes along the way.

Or, Whis, also traveling in in less than an hour from the edge of the universe without crashing the second he begins to fly.

Again, vast distance. Plus Whis can react faster than he can fly anyway.

Did you play the game or see the fight? She unstabilized at the end of the fight, in the cutscene after being beaten. Dark Samus continued to fight but was destabilized against her own will.

Does she use the destabilized form offensively though? If she controls it, then I see no reason to assume she can't do it normally.

Even if its retroactive, the statement comes from S&J, something that the original creator would only know, which implies that Sakamoto did particpate in the manga, making it far more likely to be canon than not.

Or perhaps he just read the manga?

 

[SomebodyData]

Theres also the time he flew from Pluto to the Earth in seconds, which even with FTL reactions he would have crashed into the Earth.

No. No she doesn't (have you played the game? If so, you should probably replay it....)

And stole the concept? Theres also the likelyhood that he made the manga, or particpiated in it.

 

[LordXcano]

Theres also the time he flew from Pluto to the Earth in seconds, which even with FTL reactions he would have crashed into the Earth.

He could've slowed down, which is what usually happens in fiction.

No. No she doesn't (have you played the game? If so, you should probably replay it....)

Alright I'll concede on that. But since she still uses it to leave she still controls it. It could just be that the particle form has a harder time "interacting" with matter.

And stole the concept? Theres also the likelyhood that he made the manga, or particpiated in it.

Simply getting a concept from something doesn't imply you worked on it, otherwise George Lucas would've worked on Flash Gordon since that was an inspiration for Star Wars

 

[SomebodyData]

He could've slowed down, which is what usually happens in fiction.

Alright I'll concede on that. But since she still uses it to leave she still controls it. It could just be that the particle form has a harder time "interacting" with matter.asd

Simply getting a concept from something doesn't imply you worked on it, otherwise George Lucas would've worked on Flash Gordon since that was an inspiration for Star Wars

But at what point? Had he slowed down half way or near Earth, he would have had to been far too MFTL+ prior to stop without crashing. Had he slowed down sooner, and he wouldn't have reach the Earth soon enough.

Alright

The difference is that this is more than just a concept, it is a critical piece of dialouge in the story. It is an event that had happened only in the manga til Other M refrenced it. Wavering it off as a piece of the story that was stolen is very absurd.

 

[LordXcano]

I'm gonna leave a . here while I think about this for a while and maybe watch a walkthrough or two, sorry

 

[SomebodyData]

Its alright, the Metroid universe tend to be big for a couple of games and manga. Take your time.