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saint seiya speed upgrade!

I think thst this seems reasonable, but you should preferably ask the calculation group members to take a look at it.
 
My opinion is this:

Gold Saints / 8th Sense users should be like "FTL normally, MFTL+ through Miracles"

3-B Chars and onward would scale to this feat entirely.
 
I am okay with Matt Schroeder's suggestion. However, considering this calc was already accepted by the obd community, this calc gets a green light for me.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Antvasima

Yep, it does, and it does through something the series calls "Miracles", which is the willpower, determination and hot-bloodness of the hero, as well as the burning of his Cosmos being so great that for a small instant his power level skyrockets, and allows him to match far stronger opponents.

That's why in Saint Seiya it's not really shocking for a Country level character to do a Large Planet feat through a Miracle, or a Hypersonic+ character to suddenly react to a Lightspeed blast. It's just a really broken series.
Click to expand...
Willpower? DETERMNATION? Frisk confirmed for a saint.

But in all seriousness they got another speed upgrade? Jeus and I thought they were fats enough already
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
The OBD community also thinks that 7th Sense users are Quintillions FTL normally, so I'm meh on that.
Click to expand...
you have to give credit to them tho, gold cloths crossed the hyperdimension in mere seconds, possibly whiout the help of posiedon but imo only high-top tiers are quintillions FTL normally but meh since we will soon have them at sextillions who cares about quintillions
 
Hmm. So the OBD community has accepted this and Matt is entirely in support of this plus those such as Crazystarf and Victor2.

Those factors are enough for me to agree with this. Though Matt's suggestion is probably what we should go by, yeah?
 
I think that we should give the calculation group the chance to reply first. There is no need to rush.
 
Tivanenk said:
Antvasima said:
@Tivanenk Hmm. Are you fluent in Japanese? If so, would you be willing to help out Matthew Schroeder and FanofRPGs with deciphering the second Demonbane game? It would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
I have taken Japanese classes before and can read it somewhat, but I'm not sure I'm someone that you can say is fluent in Japanese. In this case, I'm helped by the fact that:
1) Manga has less words than visual novels and they're usually broken into fragments, making it easier to read.

2) Images really help as a reference to what is going on, and can help lead to the right direction at times.

3) I have both the Spanish and Brazilian scans to fall back on to check if I had the right idea when translating it at that time.

4) My knowledge of the Saint Seiya verse helps to understand how mechanics work there and makes it easier to understand concepts.
Click to expand...
I have scans for Dragon Quest that could be translated, do you think they can be translated (It is a spinoff manga)
 
well since everyone seems to agree with this calculation

so imo this feat shouldn`t scale to lower gold saints as shura himself is high(top?)tier saint and he did it via "burn" his cosmo to it`s peak.

the only gold saints that should get this scale should be those who are high-tier gold saints and above.
 
We'll have "FTL / FTL+ normally, MFTL+ through Miracles" on most Gold Saints. Some, like say, Deathmask and Aphrodite won't.
 
Well, I think that it should be okay to carry out the upgrades then.
 
So the calculation at the top?

They are trying to calculate which distance distance increases in a certain timeframe. If that sounds as if that doesn't make sense that is because it doesn't.

One can not talk about extension speed of space in values like m/s. One can tell how much it accelerates, but not which value it has.

What they are calculating there is not the speed of extension (given that that doesn't make sense), but how fast the distance between two objects grows through expansion of space. That one can adress with a number (distance got larger by x meters in y seconds), but one should note that none of the two objects are actually moving at the speed there, as its not a speed actually just something with the same dimensions. (ah, the beauty of dimensional analysis)

But ok, lets ignore all that. We got another problem and that is that the value depends on which points you take for reference. Two points initially close together will get a lower distance increase per second number than 2 points initially far away from each other.

If we assume the universe is infinite than we can take arbitarily distant points and get arbitarily large values. The reason they got so increadibly large values here is because they take two points that are as far away from each other as the diameter of the observable universe.

If I were to take two points that today are 1 meter away from each other I would get ******** speed values from this instead.

See what I mean that this doesn't make all too much sense?


So for short what is stated in the manga doesn't make sense in terms of speed and what they calculate is not what is stated in the manga.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
We'll have "FTL / FTL+ normally, MFTL+ through Miracles" on most Gold Saints. Some, like say, Deathmask and Aphrodite won't.
Click to expand...
Episode G Assassin Deathmask and Aphrodite will be sad :(
 
@Matthew Schroeder:

I realize that. Thing is that they get very great result due to using a very great distance, even though there isn't a specific distance mentioned and what they are calculating isn't the expansion speed of the universe, but the speed with which the distance inceases between the two points that they chose.

Maybe better explanation is here. In other words the "speed at which the universe expands" currently is 70 km/s per Megaparsec, which as you might notice isn't a unit of distance over time, but a unit of distance over time over distance.

This two articles discuss the matter at hand indirectly in some greater extent. (note how the first article differentiates between speed in the common sense and what they are calculating to be FTL there)
 
I see all of that, DontTalk, but the narration still explicitly calls Shura faster than the initial expansion of space caused by the Big Bang. And really, I've seen many places, science sites really, that agree that it happened far faster than light.
 
DontTalk said:
@Matthew Schroeder:
I realize that. Thing is that they get very great result due to using a very great distance, even though there isn't a specific distance mentioned and what they are calculating isn't the expansion speed of the universe, but the speed with which the distance inceases between the two points that they chose.

Maybe better explanation is here. In other words the "speed at which the universe expands" currently is 70 km/s per Megaparsec, which as you might notice isn't a unit of distance over time, but a unit of distance over time over distance.

This two articles discuss the matter at hand indirectly in some greater extent. (note how the first article differentiates between speed in the common sense and what they are calculating to be FTL there)
Click to expand...
But they are not calculating the speed at which space expanded, but rather, the speed of expansion of the boundary itself (from 440000 Planck Lengths to 0.88 mm) which can be calculated in speed unlike the expansion of space.

For instance, take cellophane wrap as an example. You can stretch it out. You can't really calculate the expansion velocity inside the boundaries of the cellophane wrap, but you can definitely calculate the speed at which the wrap expanded from one point to another. This is where you're getting it wrong, you're comparing apples to oranges.
 
@Tivanenk: Well two things to that:

They are calculating the expansion of the boundary of the observable universe. The thing is it wasn't stated that this distance is to be used.

The expansion speed of the universe is defined as a number with the unit (m/s)/m.

So the statement to get a speed would have to be "Exceed the expansion speed of the universe at the distance of the observable universe" in order to get something with the unit m/s. Like he actually states it he just doesn't refer to a speed (unit m/s), but to expansion speed in terms of (m/s)/m.

The other thing is that while what you get as expansion speed has the unit of speed (m/s) its not actually speed in common sense (hence in reality things can go faster than light expansion speed), so equalizing that to movement speed (which is speed in the common sense) technically doesn't make sense as well.

@Matthew Schroeder: Context matters here. The expansion happening faster than light is likely stated in context of some given area or distance and not just like that.
 
@DontTalk

But it does make sense. In fact, Shura even stated he's going back prior to when the speed of light even existed (I assume this tangles with the theory that the laws of physics was set after the universe born). So limiting it to things such as the speed of light doesn't make sense in this context. And besides, universe isn't simply matter, it's a collection of matter, space, and time, so limiting it to that doesn't make sense either.

In fact, you're being a little too stingy about this matter. It's not the author's job to specifically state the very exact parameters possible, it's up to the reader to make sense of what is said, and in this case, that definition is the most precise and makes the most sense in the context that is given: the boundary growth speed of the initial observable universe.

Unless you can suggest another theory that makes sense within the context, then this one stays.
 
In fact, every time a reference is made to the universe's beginning, it's always talking about the observable universe in the Saint Seiya franchise, numerous times over.
 
I never implied limiting it to the speed of light and what the reference to the beginning of the universe has to do with my points I don't see either.


Its not stingy to just not assume gigantic values if non are given. The border of the observable universe is as arbitary of a choice here as any other, especially as the whole fact that such an interpretation is even supposed to be made is not given here.

The author likely has no idea what he is talking about and by that accidentally gives a formulation of a speed that makes about as much sense as saying "I move 3 joule fast".
 
To further prove my point, do we ever harp on an author when he says something like, "The power of my lightning is 5 GJ!!!" No, we don't. We know that authors aren't physicists and they're bound to get some terms wrong. In this case, unless a viable alternative is presented, we go with this explanation because it makes sense. Sure, not the most precise, but it still makes sense. In fact, the first thing that popped into my mind when reading it was boundary, not the specific astronomical definition. Only when you start to analyze can you start getting anal about it, but we have to go under assumption that he isn't a physicist, just like we go under assumption that Tite Kubo isn't a perfect architect when he drew Seireitei.
 
DontTalk said:
"I move 3 joule fast".
Click to expand...
Okay, now you're being completely misrepresentitive. If the author had stated, "move faster the the expansion of space within a universe" You'd have a point. But he doesn't. He only states "initial expansion of the universe" which is fairly vague I might admit, but it doesn't discount the possibility that he's talking about boundaries. In fact, it could mean that he is either talking about the space itself OR the boundaries. We just throw out the one that doesn't make sense. Just like when someone says "the power of my blast is 5 joules" We know that he is either talking about power or energy. However, power in that case can also be synonymous with strength, so we don't constrict it to the scientific definition of power. So we take the one which makes sense: energy. Same case here: what makes sense when talking about speed? The boundary, obviously. So we simply discard the expansion of space because it's not specified here nor does it make any sense. You're only grabbing onto the somewhat vagueness of the entire thing and completely ignoring the fact that the author isn't a physicist and shouldn't be expected to specify "boundary". It's up to the reader to figure that out.
 
We can only go with a statement as long as

a) The statement somehow makes sense

b) the necessary variables are given

Your intuitive understanding of a statement holds no relevance. That is interpretation based on what you believe is author intent and as you well noted author intent is usually ignored.

Things are taken like depicted and the depiction here does make no sense and is in absolutely no case well defined. Not my fault.
 
The statement does make sense. In fact, I'm not the only one who came to that conclusion. Iwandesu who calced this came to the same exact one, and the rest of the members here as well considering they weren't able to see anything wrong with the calc itself.

You're the only one who is trying to bound this to the context of space and saying that it can't be right because it doesn't make sense for the expansion of space to have a velocity. Even though there is no statement about space in the scan in the first place. You're cherry picking when it comes to this, specifically limiting it to one feature, despite the fact that it's nowhere to be found in the statement, and then you proceed to accuse me of faulty interpretation (I'm not sure if you did, so I apologize if I'm wrong in this case). Even though we both interpreted in our own way.

You can't really say that "the initial expansion of the universe" is limited to space, like you interpreted it as. The interpretation of boundaries themselves is quite valid. And think of this from a non-physicist's perspective as well. When someone thinks about something expanding, like a bubble, do they think about the space inside expanding, or do they pay attention to the boundary expanding its distance? Personally, I'm sure that most would do the latter.
 
He states "speed of the initial expansion of the universe". That does actually quite clearly not mean "speed of the increase in distance between the ends of the boundary of the observable universe"

The verb speed relates to expansion here and universe Ôëá border of universe.

Your interpretation is clearly not given by the statement as said.
 
Again, let's think of other examples apart from a universe. Let's say... someone asks a physicist, "How fast did the soap bubble, which I just blew, expand?" Now, in this situation, what is your first thought? Do you immediately chastise this person, saying that a soap bubble's expansion is not defined by velocity and that the air inside the bubble does not expand with a unit of velocity? Or do you assume that he's talking about how fast the layer of the bubble is expanding?

Same situation here, when asked with how fast the universe's expansion is, a common person will probably think of a soap bubble and how it expands once you blow air into it. It's a completely viable theory. You're only hanging onto the fact that the author was not the most precise possible is this situation. But the author is not a physicist, so he doesn't need to be. He only needs to state what makes sense. Think of this from the perspective of a common person, NOT that of a physicist.
 
In fact, the fact that the word "initial" is present before "expansion" pretty much points to my theory, because when someone talks about the expansion of space, they don't refer to the initial expansion of the universe. However, when people talk about how fast the boundary of a universe expands, they most frequently refer to the initial expansion, right after the Big Bang happened.
 
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