(Saint Seiya) Small but Massive Hax potency Upgrade

[Hasty12345]

Eh.......why do we accept non canon works to be canon to Saint Seiya franchise or is there something I don't understand?

Something you don't understand.

Everything in Saint Seiya is considered canon to the franchise at the moment. Matt did a blog about it.

Lancelot is apart of a group of people in the community who dislike Okada's work despite them being directly linked to classic and the franchise as a whole, so they like going around calling them "non-canon". There's an official Saint Seiya canon timeline on the official website.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Your distasteful hate against Okada aside....

The underworld was crumbling and the boarder between life and death was fading during GA.... You know, because in classic Hades' body and soul were destroyed..... and the Underworld was collapsing..... for the sake of the crumbling cosmology at the time of the story ,both locations were used virtually interchangeably.

No, it's just that Okaga's manga has no importance for Kurumada's work, that's why the author contradicts that manga when he published Zero.

The world of the dead disappeared forever with the death of Hades in the original manga, something different from what is shown in Assassin, since it is a different universe and has a different story.

Something you don't understand.

Everything in Saint Seiya is considered canon to the franchise at the moment. Matt did a blog about it.

Lancelot is apart of a group of people in the community who dislike Okada's work despite them being directly linked to classic and the franchise as a whole, so they like going around calling them "non-canon". There's an official Saint Seiya canon timeline on the official website.

This was before the publication of Zero and Kurumada's new works that contradict Okada's manga, therefore, it is now a parallel universe. Only Saintia Sho, which is the manga in which Kurumada contributed the most, is part of the main universe, but this did not even save this manga from an obligatory retcon by Kurumada to introduce the Lemur as Saga's second personality to his story.

All of the franchise's works are part of the same multiverse, but not all are part of the same universe. The manga of Episode.G, like TLC and Dark Wing, is its own universe.

No, even in the franchise the Episode.G universe is considered a different universe from the main universe.

 

[Hasty12345]

author contradicts that manga when he published Zero.

retconnign a single fight (that appears in a flashback iirc), does not invalidate the entire manga, that again, is stated to be a prequel to classic.

The world of the dead disappeared forever with the death of Hades in the original manga, something different from what is shown in Assassin, since it is a different universe and has a different story.

It was shown Hades was trying to save the UW in his ethereal form which staved off the collapse causing the boarder between life and death to blurr. And yes. Assassins does take place in another universe, but it is heavily implied and even shown that the events of classic occurred to that version of Seiya. The only thing we know is that ND possibly didn't happen in that timeline.

 

[Hasty12345]

This was before the publication of Zero and Kurumada's new works that contradict Okada's manga, therefore, it is now a parallel universe.

No, retcons happen in just about every big franchise. unless you make Ikki awakening the 7th sense in Classic non-canon because he's sub light speed in ND

 

[Hasty12345]

No, even in the franchise the Episode.G universe is considered a different universe from the main universe.

No, only assassins is it's own universe as it is stated to be a different time axis, something that is never stated with G.

 

[Hasty12345]

Only Saintia Sho, which is the manga in which Kurumada contributed the most, is part of the main universe,

Kurumada's contribution doesn't change the "amount of canonicity" the manga's have. They're all equal contributions to the franchise.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

It was shown Hades was trying to save the UW in his ethereal form which staved off the collapse causing the boarder between life and death to blurr. And yes. Assassins does take place in another universe, but it is heavily implied and even shown that the events of classic occurred to that version of Seiya. The only thing we know is that ND possibly didn't happen in that timeline.

The Underworld in the main universe disappeared, there is no Hades' world of the dead, because the god disappeared forever. In Assassin, Hades fought to combat the effect of the black core, but the world of the dead still exists, because the god was not destroyed as in the original manga, that's why the story of this world is different (even Seiya does not mention Thanatos' name among the gods he fought in the past).

No, retcons happen in just about every big franchise. unless you make Ikki awakening the 7th sense in Classic non-canon because he's sub light speed in ND

The protagonists never mastered the Seventh Sense, so their speed and power decrease with each new arc. Without the help of a Gold Cloth or God Cloth, they can only reach the power of a Gold Saint for a short period of time..

No, only assassins is it's own universe as it is stated to be a different time axis, something that is never stated with G.

Okada's new manga (Requiem) continues the plot of Episode.G with Pontus, and also continues the plot of Assassin, that's why that world's version of Shion who lost his arms and eyesight when he used the Crystal Vortex appears. Episode.G universe is the same future world that appears in Assassin.

 

[Hasty12345]

Shion who lost her breasts

Shion is a dude my guy.....

I'll get around to addressing the rest later on in the day.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

But from quick glances I just see the same thing being debated and we're going in a full circle. Considering that the replies slowed down probably almost tome to conclude this.

It's because the idea of an Underworld for the multiverse doesn't make sense, even Matt never agreed with this idea in other topics in this forum.

I don't understand what is the obsession with that idea, when it was rejected in other topics. Where it was shown that each universe has its own gods and each universe has its own version of the Underworld, because there are multiple Hades in the multiverse. Even each version of the Earth in the multiverse has its own version of Athena, Saori does not protect other Earths of the multiverse, she only protects the Earth of his universe.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This becoming a thread that is devolving and becoming derailing fast. If you an issue with something accepted on past CRT's make a new CRT about it. Don't clutter up this one with something already accepted ajd has been accepted for years. (Regarding canons)

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is just infinite.

Scans for this?

The infinite stuff seem fine, however I do need the scans of Hades doing the soul/mind hax thing.

I'll get the scans when I'm off work.

The infinite multiverse has a multiverse branching off of it that expands outwards. But 2-A standards change so much anymore idk what the standard is lol

Edit: eh its a busy work week. it might take me some time to get to back to this but i'll let you know when i post something. Should be in a few hours and if not then... it'll likely be tomorrow..

 

[StekFence]

In short, The potency for both Mind Hax, and Soul Hax along with resistance to such hax to be increased to "Infinite + Countless + Billions"

Should this also affect law manip, as it also goes into affect once entering the underworld?

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Should this also affect law manip, as it also goes into affect once entering the underworld?

That only affects 3 or more worlds in the underworld. I suppose it could in theory upscale if you involve some math, but im not a physicist lol

I'll respond to Ogs questions later. I finally got all the scans I needed.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

This is just infinite.

Scans for this?

The infinite stuff seem fine, however I do need the scans of Hades doing the soul/mind hax thing.

When someone dies their soul immediately leaves the body and enters into the "Dimension of Death/World of the Dead/Underworld" this is an instantaneous affect. These souls "Ascend up." (There is multiple other scans that say that too.) This happens instantly as death occurs. The soul is what goes into the Underworld as it is a place only souls go; minus the 8th sense and specters as those are special cases. Anyways, Hades created The Underworld as a means to punish mortals. In truth, mortals are supposed to reincarnate but because Hades created the Afterlife (The Underworld) he steals the souls of the dead and brings them to his Domain for punishment for their sins, crimes, etc. An example of Hades hax in affect is seeing the line of the dead walking further into the Underworld. As you can see no one is resisting, or fighting back. (the ones who do have special exceptions that are explained in verse such as an item, power, or divine protection.) That is because Hades "Divine Will" (A SS-Verse unique concept) permeates through the entire Underworld and they have been subjected to his will. (Here is another scan that says that).

Also I was thinking Baseline 2-A*Countless*Billions on the basis that there is a baseline 2-A Cosmology generated by Humans via infinite possibilities, but those Universes have an expanding Universe branching off of them, and along with that there are worlds that Humans do not create, but Gods create them (as seen in Episode G when the Titans use their planets which are stated to have billions of lives), and worlds without Humans. Saint Seiya Omega implied that Hades also takes souls from those worlds, and they become subjected to his power as well. (packed filled with souls belonging neither to our world (The living world), nor the dead)

So a baseline 2-A multiverse with a countless expanding multiverse branched off those worlds each with billions of lives in those worlds.

 

[Hasty12345]

Just to add, if you're still unsure about Hades' Divine Will affecting his domain (the UW), it's stated that Poseidon's and Athena's permeate the ocean and sanctuary:

(2 images)

 

[Elizhaa]

So a baseline 2-A multiverse with a countless expanding multiverse branched off those worlds each with billions of lives in those worlds.

Technically, it would still be baseline 2-A cosmology, from the new accepted additions clarified the tiering system Faq. Infinitely growing (infinite) is still a countable infinite; counterintuitively, countable infinite sets are the same size.
I now agree with Ogbunabali on infinite.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Technically, it would still be baseline 2-A cosmology, from the new accepted additions clarified the tiering system Faq. Infinitely growing (infinite) is still a countable infinite; counterintuitively, countable infinite sets are the same size.
I now agree with Ogbunabali on infinite.

ah okay. I admit 2-A standards are confusing as they seem to constantly change twice a year anymore lol. Alright this is fine as well

 

[Ogbunabali]

When someone dies their soul immediately leaves the body and enters into the "Dimension of Death/World of the Dead/Underworld" this is an instantaneous affect. These souls "Ascend up." (There is multiple other scans that say that too.) This happens instantly as death occurs. The soul is what goes into the Underworld as it is a place only souls go; minus the 8th sense and specters as those are special cases. Anyways, Hades created The Underworld as a means to punish mortals. In truth, mortals are supposed to reincarnate but because Hades created the Afterlife (The Underworld) he steals the souls of the dead and brings them to his Domain for punishment for their sins, crimes, etc.

He doesn't appear to be taking the souls and putting them in though? They just naturally go in his dimension after they die. That isn't really soul hax.

An example of Hades hax in affect is seeing the line of the dead walking further into the Underworld. As you can see no one is resisting, or fighting back. (the ones who do have special exceptions that are explained in verse such as an item, power, or divine protection.) That is because Hades "Divine Will" (A SS-Verse unique concept) permeates through the entire Underworld and they have been subjected to his will. (Here is another scan that says that).

I didn't see where it said that Hades was forcing the dead to go in the hole. And if that's true then it contradicts your earlier statement that he forcefully puts souls into his realm. It'd either be soul or mind hax, but not both.

 

[StekFence]

bump

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

I'll be able to respond to this tomorrow. I haven't forgotten just been very busy lately.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

This becoming a thread that is devolving and becoming derailing fast. If you an issue with something accepted on past CRT's make a new CRT about it. Don't clutter up this one with something already accepted ajd has been accepted for years. (Regarding canons)

The problem is that even though the manga and series of the franchise were accepted as canon, they are not all part of the same universe, a detail that is even mentioned in Matt's description of the canon for this franchise. You cannot be mixing different concepts of the series, because they are not part of the same universe and even several concepts are different and incompatible between the different universes, for example the Genrōmaōken is described as a technique of the Pope in TLC and Episode.G, but Next Dimension confirms that it is a technique of Geminis, this is an incompatible concept between these universes, because the description of the technique is different.

He doesn't appear to be taking the souls and putting them in though? They just naturally go in his dimension after they die. That isn't really soul hax.

I didn't see where it said that Hades was forcing the dead to go in the hole. And if that's true then it contradicts your earlier statement that he forcefully puts souls into his realm. It'd either be soul or mind hax, but not both.

Yes, it seems more like the natural order of the universe (the Yomotsu only represents the death cycle of humans, that's why the souls of people who are about to die appear in that place and walk towards their death), the souls travel through the Yomotsu to enter the the world of the dead because that is the structure of their universe and not because Hades controls those souls. Also, Hades' power does not affect the Yomotsu, even that place is protected by Athena's cosmos and has a barrier that prevents Hades and his army from entering through that place.

Although a god like Eris could change the natural order of souls in this universe. In the new conflicting world of the goddess, the souls of the weak who could not adapt to that world would arrive in paradise (Eden of Eris) to obtain eternal rest (transformed into flowers and insects of that place).

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

He doesn't appear to be taking the souls and putting them in though? They just naturally go in his dimension after they die. That isn't really soul hax.


I didn't see where it said that Hades was forcing the dead to go in the hole. And if that's true then it contradicts your earlier statement that he forcefully puts souls into his realm. It'd either be soul or mind hax, but not both.

Hades interfered with the system of reincarnation. He has to capture the souls of mortals for his goal of "punishing them." He interferes with death in such a way that without him "Death" becomes "Erasure" for motrals because there is no afterlife or spiritual plane for them to go. Their souls disappear after death..

Yomotsu Hirasaka is place where hades power Extends too. Shura was trying to fight off Hades control during a fight as he was getting closer and closer to fully dying [one] [two] [once hades power touches him (three)]

In Santia Sho, the Santias had their souls separated from their bodies they state that their body is being pulled to the Underworld (Yomotsu Hirasaka). They even state that they were being forced to climb a wall

Yomotsu Hirasaka is under Hades jurisdiction
^^^^ That is the name of the location you see the line of dead walking further into the Underworld

Yomotsu Hirasaka is stated to be in the Underworld, and apart of the Underworld systems. That is what these scans in the quote back are showing

Deathmask goes into Yomotsu Hirasaka to help rescue Shura and Saga.

Shun, Seiya, Hyoga, and Shiryu (who are Gold Saints at this time) called this place "The Underworld" when talking about who will go rescue Shura.

Furthermore; Deathmask also called Yomotsu Hirasaka "The underworld" whilest still at the same time still calling it Yomotsu Hirasaka by description being the boundary between life and death.

Aiolos also calls the Border/Boundry the wall that Shura, Deathmask, and Saga wer trying to pierce as "The Underworld' as well.

Here we have 2 Cancer Saints calling Yomotsu Hirasaka the Underworld.

Aiolos says here that they are trapped in the Underworld despite being in Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Shura also says that he is falling into the Underworld despite it being only Yomotsu Hirasaka.

The only reason why Shura is not dominated by Hades will is because Saga is serving as a link between the Living world and the Dead.

Aiolos lightening flame is stated to "Cover the whole Underworld" despite their location being only in Yomotsu Hirasaka

its even called "The Shadow of the Underworld."

Despite all that; They are still far away from the Archaeon river.

Hades power is stated to be out of control in Yomotsu Hirasaka

Hades controls the Dead and the entire Underworld systems. That is what this next quote box is going to show.

冥界と死者たちを統べる神。
The god who controls the underworld and the dead. [link]


"Já foi citado que mesmo um Cavaleiro de Atena não possui vida eterna como ser huma- no, mas essa regra não se aplica ao exército de Espectros de Hades. Como governador de todo o Mundo dos Mortos, Hades é capaz de conceder un corpo físico. Para as almas mortas. O conceito de "morte" não existe entre os soldados de Hades, o que os torna destemidos em luta e guerreiros de força descomunal. físico para as almas mor O Mundo dos Mortos dominado por Hades é um mundo inatingivel pelo poder dos ou- tros deuses, inclusive Atena. Somente aqueles seres reconhecidos por Hades podem possuir poderes nesse mundo, ou seja, somente os Espectros. Isso impediu desde tempos remotos que os domínios de Hades fossem invadidos pxor outros exércitos (contudo, dessa vez o Cavaleiro de Ouro da Casa de Virgem conseguiu descobrir meios de penetrar no Mundo dos Mortos, através do Arayashiki) e Atena nunca conseguiu cortar o mal de Hades pela raiz.

Translation: It has already been mentioned that even a Knight of Athena does not have eternal life as a human being, but this rule does not apply to the Specters of Hades army. As governor of the entire Underworld, Hades is able to bestow a physical body. For dead souls. The concept of "death" does not exist among soldiers of Hades, which makes them fearless in fight and warriors of extraordinary strength. physical for dead souls The Hades-dominated World of the Dead is a world unattainable by the power of other gods, including Athena. Only those beings recognized by Hades can possess powers in this world, that is, only Specters. This prevented from ancient times the domains of Hades from being invaded by other armies (however, this time the Golden Knight of the House of Virgo managed to find ways to penetrate the Underworld, through the Arayashiki) and Athena never managed to stop the evil of Hades in the bud."
[Scan is here]

When entering any part of the Underworld, Yomotsu or any other, you become subjected to Hades rule. (This also gets reiterated in other works in the series)

It'd either be soul or mind hax, but not both.

You bring up a good point here. Though wouldn't it be Soul hax for him physically bringing the souls to a spiritual plane? But also Mind Hax because he using his "Will" to posses them? so 2 separate haxes happening here is where my mind was going.

---

I found this one last night, but Dysnomnia's Reverse Side of The World is stated to be in the Underworld (Kanji used means "Hades")

Kanji used
奈落 = Naraka; Hell; Hades [ljisho] [scan link]

This is interesting because Dysnomnia (this name is probably spelled wrong) says all of space-time from all universes converges there. you can view any event or future.

P2 & P3

Dysnomia: Heh ... You see ...
Dysnomia: This is the place where all space-time from all Universes converges
Dysnomia: From the Myth Era to a far away future
Dysnomia: You can access it all from here, as you wish

Shaka was taken by Dysnomia's Reverse of Universe ...?

Stage 81: Justice of the Saints / Justice for Saints

Dysnomia: A forbidden place where not even the gods eyes can reach
Dysnomia: ... Do you get it?
Dysnomia: If you look at any event or fate chosen by the stars
Dysnomia: They are just small fragments among millions of sparks
Dysnomia: Very, very tiny ...

P4

Dysnomia: Oh, look ...
Dysnomia: It seems a new universe
Dysnomia: Is being born ...

To give you a summary of what im trying to say.....

Death for mortals was originally supposed to reincarnate them, but Hades began to hate mortals. So he created the concept of the Afterlife so when Mortals die they fall into his Underworld so they can be punished there for eternity. In other words, this isn't a unique world mechanic where they simply go there after death, but Hades brings them there to prevent them from reincarnating.

Yes, it seems more like the natural order of the universe (the Yomotsu only represents the cycle of death of humans, that is why the souls of people who are about to die appear in that place and walk to their death).

Their already dead. That is the only way to go there.

In addition, Hades' power does not affect the Yomotsu, even that place is protected by Athena's cosmos and has a barrier that prevents Hades and his army from entering through that place.

I see your changing your point/topic/subject again. Yet another contradiction you are creating putting more holes in your "Points"

Although a god like Eris could change the natural order of the universe. The souls would no longer enter the world of the dead and would now be part of the goddess' Eden. The souls of the weak who could not adapt to the world of conflict that the goddess wished to create would be granted paradise and eternal rest in Eden.

Your basically agreeing with me here because hades is also shown to change the natural order of the universe.

The problem is that even though the manga and series of the franchise were accepted as canon, they are not all part of the same universe, a detail that is even mentioned in Matt's description of the canon for this franchise.

Matts canon blog

• January 4th 2017
• Matts CRT where he says everything is canon and cross-scalable was on November of 2017

November 2017

https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-multiversal-upgrades.2373/

Matt even cross-scales the Cosmology shown in Omega (Anime) to the rest of the manga series which is even has supporting feats in the manga series.

You cannot be mixing different concepts of the series, because they are not part of the same universe and even several concepts are different and incompatible between the different universes, for example the Genrōmaōken is described as a technique of the Pope in TLC and Episode.G, but Next Dimension confirms that it is a technique of Geminis, this is an incompatible concept between these universes, because the description of the technique is different.

were crossing scaling cosmologies as all mangas take place within it. Skills, and attacks, can vary between universes. TLC is a completely separate and wholly different timeline in the same macrocosmo as the classic work. For examples, Zeus has fought many different versions Seiya's but only 1 Seiya was different out of all the ones he fought. Insignificant skills/attacks are irrelevant here.



If you have a problem with the how the canons are treated make your own CRT. Any further talk of it should be considered derailment. This is becoming redundant.

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

Hades interfered with the system of reincarnation. He has to capture the souls of mortals for his goal of "punishing them." He interferes with death in such a way that without him "Death" becomes "Erasure" for motrals because there is no afterlife or spiritual plane for them to go. Their souls disappear after death..

No, the wound from Hades' sword only damaged Seiya's soul and sent him into the void, that is why he did not reincarnate. Even Deathmask mentions that he can do the same with his Seki Shiki (when used in the Yomotsu), because his technique destroys the opponent's soul and sends it to a dimension outside the reincarnation cycle.

Spoiler

Deathmask: おそらく魂はズタズタにみしらぬ次元に飛散し
Deathmask: 未来永劫ニ度と現世に転生することもあるまい!

Any character that completely destroys a soul interferes with the cycle of reincarnation.

The power of Hades does not control the souls in the Yomotsu in any way.

Yomotsu Hirasaka is place where hades power Extends too. Shura was trying to fight off Hades control during a fight as he was getting closer and closer to fully dying [one] [two] [once hades power touches him (three)]

In Santia Sho, the Santias had their souls separated from their bodies they state that their body is being pulled to the Underworld (Yomotsu Hirasaka). They even state that they were being forced to climb a wall

Yomotsu Hirasaka is under Hades jurisdiction
^^^^ That is the name of the location you see the line of dead walking further into the Underworld

Yomotsu Hirasaka is stated to be in the Underworld, and apart of the Underworld systems. That is what these scans in the quote back are showing

No, the original manga shows that Hades has no power over that world, even Athena's cosmos affects the Yomotsu and creates a barrier that prevents the Specters and Hades from entering that place.

Spoiler

It was the cosmos of Deathmask/Poena that guided the souls of the Saintias in that place.

Spoiler

The TLC universe is not part of the same universe, it even has different concepts with the original manga, for example the concept of the Specters or the structure of the world of Hades, because the Superdimension is not part of this world and it is only a dimension that the gods use to travel to other places. In the TLC manga, the Specters had a base there, unlike in the original manga where the Specters cannot even enter the Yomotsu due to Athena's power.

Hades controls the Dead and the entire Underworld systems. That is what this next quote box is going to show.

Hades rules the Underworld, not the Yomotsu Hirasaka.

The god of death in this universe is Thanatos, but this does not mean that all deaths in this universe occur by the power of Thanatos.

---

I found this one last night, but Dysnomnia's Reverse Side of The World is stated to be in the Underworld (Kanji used means "Hades")

Kanji used
奈落 = Naraka; Hell; Hades [ljisho] [scan link]

This is interesting because Dysnomnia (this name is probably spelled wrong) says all of space-time from all universes converges there. you can view any event or future.

The place described on that page is the depths of Eden (the place created by Eris), not the Reverse of Universe of Dysnomia.
大いなる奈落に決死のダイブをする聖闘少女たち...!!

Spoiler

This is the English translation of LGG of this page.
Stage 80: Depths of Darkness
P1
☆ Putting their lives on the line, Saintias dive into the depths*!
*It's written "into Naraku/Naraka", something like "the underworld" according to Buddhism. For I get, this is more like a metaphorical comparison.

Shoko: Please, be safe...!!
Shoko: Saori......!!
Shoko: !?

The depths of Eden were even named Netherworld/Hell at another time, but this place is not related to the world of Hades.

Spoiler

To give you a summary of what im trying to say.....

Death for mortals was originally supposed to reincarnate them, but Hades began to hate mortals. So he created the concept of the Afterlife so when Mortals die they fall into his Underworld so they can be punished there for eternity. In other words, this isn't a unique world mechanic where they simply go there after death, but Hades brings them there to prevent them from reincarnating.

The cycle of reincarnation still exists in this universe, that's why the Saints mention it several times and Seiya is a reincarnation, even Odysseus is named as the reincarnation of Asclepius. As Shaka describes it, humans can reincarnate in one of the six worlds of Buddhism. Even in TLC it is also mentioned that mortals are trapped in a cycle of reincarnation in the Gaiden of Asmita.

The existence of the Underworld never eliminated the cycle of reincarnation from this world, and it is only a world where the souls of humans can end after death, such as the Jigokukai, Gakikai, Chikushôkai, Seikai, etc.

Their already dead. That is the only way to go there.

The Yomotsu is a world between life and death, the souls that walk in that place are of humans who are serious or near death. That is why Hyoga's soul walked in that place even when he was not dead and Seiya's soul walks in that place even when he still has three days to live.

Your basically agreeing with me here because hades is also shown to change the natural order of the universe.

It was Eris, not Hades. Even Athena who protects humanity does not have the power to change the natural order of souls in this universe.

If Chronos has the power to send others through time, it does not mean that Athena and Hades have that power.

Matts canon blog

• January 4th 2017
• Matts CRT where he says everything is canon and cross-scalable was on November of 2017

November 2017
https://vsbattles.com/threads/saint-seiya-multiversal-upgrades.2373/
Matt even cross-scales the Cosmology shown in Omega (Anime) to the rest of the manga series which is even has supporting feats in the manga series.

were crossing scaling cosmologies as all mangas take place within it. Skills, and attacks, can vary between universes. TLC is a completely separate and wholly different timeline in the same macrocosmo as the classic work. For examples, Zeus has fought many different versions Seiya's but only 1 Seiya was different out of all the ones he fought. Insignificant skills/attacks are irrelevant here.

If you have a problem with the how the canons are treated make your own CRT. Any further talk of it should be considered derailment. This is becoming redundant.

A page from 2017, Matt currently even doubts Cronos as multiversal and that feat, because now we have new descriptions and new series.

In 2017 fans still believed that the destruction of the universe was something caused by the resurrection of the Golden Ophiuchus, and now we know that this is not true and the destruction of the universe is a consequence of the time travel of Athena and the Saints to save Seiya.

In addition, the franchise continues to expand and Kurumada published new works (Zero, Origin, Destiny, new chapters of Next Dimension and the Final Edition of the original manga) that explain various details of this universe.

The cross-scalable is only for destructive power, speed, etc, because some descriptions are similar in the different universes, for example the basic description of the cosmos.

But this does not apply to several concepts and ideas in the series, as some concepts are very different, for example the nature of the Specters in the original manga and in Dark Wing is different from what is seen in TLC, and we can also see that the Specters are immune to Seki Shiki in the main universe, unlike in TLC where the Specters are affected by this technique.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Lancelot de Cancer's assessment makes sense to me.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Lancelot de Cancer's assessment makes sense to

All ive done is debunk him and it keeps coming back to ad nauseum and ad Infinium.

He keeps applying his own "head canon" to things as a couple others pointed out besides me. He also keeps changing his argument on several different various points which ends up contradicting a previous point he held.

though may i ask what part of his post do you agree with?

edit: If he doesn't like how the canons are used he needs to make a seperate CRT instead of derailing this thread.

If he doesn't like the 2-A Rating in the verse. Also needs to make a seperate CRT for that as it just clutters, clogs up, and derails this one into multiple pages worth

I will say i disagree with both.

Maybe somehting like A debunk blog and an updated and new canoncity blog with a Cosmology blog may help. I could get started working on such.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Their posts about Hades. I'm neither here nor there with the canon argument.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Their posts about Hades. I'm neither here nor there with the canon argument.

Ah okay

i will only focus on those comments of his then..

Though my comments will massivley start to slow down now.

irl issues caused me to use only wireless hotspotting and i used up all my highspeed hotspotting data...


I just want to say Thank you for helping out here btw..

 

[Ogbunabali]

Take your time, there's no rush.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

No, the wound from Hades' sword only damaged Seiya's soul and sent him into the void, that is why he did not reincarnate. Even Deathmask mentions that he can do the same with his Seki Shiki (when used in the Yomotsu), because his technique destroys the opponent's soul and sends it to a dimension outside the reincarnation cycle.


Deathmask: おそらく魂はズタズタにみしらぬ次元に飛散し
Deathmask: 未来永劫ニ度と現世に転生することもあるまい!

Any character that completely destroys a soul interferes with the cycle of reincarnation.

I think you are completely missing my point here.

Characters aren't destroying the souls of an entire population of Earth. Some characters do die of old age like normal humans in the verse. Hades is capturing the remaining souls and putting them in his underworld which interferes with the Cycle of Reincarnation by preventing them from moving into that system.

I am not saying Hades is altering it or changing it, but he is simply just a road block that is blocking the passing of people from entering into the system of reincarnation.

No, the original manga shows that Hades has no power over that world, even Athena's cosmos affects the Yomotsu and creates a barrier that prevents the Specters and Hades from entering that place.

You contradicted yourself here. Your yet again changing your point. You are yet again trying to change something to fit your narrative.

---

This is what you said earlier on this thread [link to where it was said is here]

たとえ聖闘士といえども、その命は永遠ではないことは既に前の項で述べているが、実王の軍団に関しては、その常識は当てはまらない。死者の国である冥界を治めるハーデスは、己の国の住人たちに肉体を与えることができるからだ。ハーデスの軍団に関しては、死という概念は存在せず、戦いにおいては相討ちとなることも辞さない者が多い。それゆえにその軍団は、他に類を見ない強力な力を獲得するに至っている。

ハーデスの支配する冥界は、アテナをはじめ、他の神々の力が及ばない世界であり、唯一、冥王からその存在が許された者、つまり冥闘士しか活動することが許されない。そのために他の勢力から攻め込まれることがなく、神話の時代から他の勢力の侵入を阻んできた鉄壁の守りを誇っていたのだ(だが、今度の聖戦では黄金聖闘士・乙女座のシャカは、阿頼耶識を発現させることで冥界に侵攻する手段を見出す)。このため、幾度となく戦いを繰り広げながらもアテナは、その冥界の戦力を根絶やしにすることができなかったのだ。

Como mencionado anteriormente, a vida não é eterna, mesmo para um Saint, mas em relação ao exército de Hades essa regra não se aplica. Hades governa o Submundo, a terra dos mortos, e por isso pode conceder um corpo para os habitantes da sua região. Para o exército de Hades o conceito de morte não existe e por isso são tão destemidos nas batalhas.

O Submundo governado por Hades é um mundo inatingível pelo poder dos outros deuses, inclusive Athena. Somente aqueles que foram autorizados pelo Imperador das Trevas podem agir livremente, ou seja, apenas como Specters. Portanto, sem ser atacado por outras forças, orgulhavam-se da proteção intransponível que impedia a invasão de outras forças desde a Era Mitológica (no entanto, nesta Guerra Santa, o Cavaleiro de Ouro Shaka de Virgo encontrou uma maneira de invadir o Submundo manifestando o alaya-vijnana).

It is curious that in the Taizen it is described that Athena has no power over the Underworld of Hades, because it is a world unreachable even by the power of the gods.

---

So your changing your narrative from Athena having no possible way to influence the Underworld to now suddenly she has a way hhhmmmm? This sounds very suspicious to me.

Hades rules the Underworld, not the Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Since it appears my scans are being ignored instead I will post all of the scans themselves on thread instead of linking them.

Because IT IS DIRECTLY STATED that Yomotsu Hirasaka IS PART OF HADES UNDERWORLD and his power can reach there.

I will show the full images of the scans in quote boxes below instead of just linking them.

If you look very closely you can clearly see that Yomotsu Hirasaka is directly stated to be "THE UNDERWORLD!" in those scans.

I have more scans but I'm limited to only 20.

There is over 20 pictures for you that say YOMOTSU HIRASAKA IS APART OF HADES UNDERWORLD. I don't know how else you can miscontexualize, decontextualize, miscontruct, disinform that. Here is a link to the full Imgur Album with over 27 scans in it that prove Yomotsu is under Hades control.

Allow me to explain using scans. When a character dies their soul immediately leaves the body and their soul ascends up into the underworld as described and explained multiple times. We also physically see this in the animes and the mangas. It is directly stated that when someone dies they fall into the dimension of death, which is the directly stated to be the Underworld in that very same scan. The very first world they end up in is Yomotsu Hirasaka which that world AS I SHOWN IN THE QUOTE BOX ABOVE there is over 20 scans (and more than that but i am limited to using 20 scans) Saying YOMOTU HIRASAKA IS APART OF HADES UNDERWORLD!! Is it also stated that it is part of his Jurisdiction of worlds. One episode of Saint Seiya Omega was literally titled "Border between life and death (Description for Yomotsu Hirasaka) Battle in Hades! (Hades = The Underworld)" Hades reaps the souls of the dead from the Macrocosmo (Multiverse), and puts them into his Underworld to punish mortals for their sins.

For refence Saint Seiya interchanges the words Hell, Hades, World of the Dead, and Underworld. They all reference the same cosmological structures which are Hades Underworlds.

You CANNOT IN ANYWAY DEBUNK BALATANT SCANS. These scans are as blatant as they can be. They are as direct as they can be. Trying to miscontextualize them, decontextualize them, and warp them into something else shows bias. How much more blatant do the scans have to be before you accept them? This is clearly the definition of Belief Perseverance.

Belief Perservance (also known as conceptual conservatism) is maintaining a belief despite new information that firmly contradicts it. Such beliefs may even be strengthened when others attempt to present evidence debunking them, a phenomenon known as the backfire effect (compare boomerang effect).

The cycle of reincarnation still exists in this universe, that's why the Saints mention it several times and Seiya is a reincarnation, even Odysseus is named as the reincarnation of Asclepius. As Shaka describes it, humans can reincarnate in one of the six worlds of Buddhism. Even in TLC it is also mentioned that mortals are trapped in a cycle of reincarnation in the Gaiden of Asmita.

The existence of the Underworld never eliminated the cycle of reincarnation from this world, and it is only a world where the souls of humans can end after death, such as the Jigokukai, Gakikai, Chikushôkai, Seikai, etc.

Again you missed my point, Hades underworld are a blockage on the path to reincarnation. hhhmm maybe i could explain it better. Think of a car on a street, their destination is 50 meters down the road but they got stopped by a police officer. The destination that is 50 meters down on the other end of the street is the system of reincarnation but the police officer is Hades Underworld who takes him to jail for speeding. He is preventing them from reaching their true destination by simply being an obstacle that kidnaps souls.

---

I ignored irrelevant things to this thread to prevent derailing and to remain on tract. This has already gone on for too long, and has done nothing but keep going in circles with Ad Nausem and Ad Infinium.

The whole crux of the oppositions counter proposal is

"Yomotsu Hirasaka is not controlled by Hades' But i already debunked with many scans and the opposition is providing no new information.

and "Canons must be separate and not cross scalable" which requires a whole new CRT for that.

lastly their entire argument gets destroyed by this one 1 scan which i shall toss in a quote box below. Which literally states that Underworld can connect to multiple dimensions. Which gets reinforced by evidence I already presented in the OP.

so far 3 staff agree and 1 staff disagrees.


Agrees: @Hasty12345; @catzlaflame; @Tarang123; @Teezar; @Rabbit2002; @StekFence; @RIZEXX; @Silvervigilant; @AerrowStorm1

Disagrees: @Lancelot_de_Cancer; @Saiyan40009

Staff Agrees: @KingTempest; @Elizhaa; @DarkDragonMedeus

Staff Disagrees: @Ogbunabali (Agrees with @Lancelot_de_Cancer)

Edit: Honestly, this thread should be closed and concluded as it seems the same arguments never cease..

 

[AerrowStorm1]

so far 3 staff agree and 1 staff disagrees.


Agrees: @Hasty12345; @catzlaflame; @Tarang123; @Teezar; @Rabbit2002; @StekFence; @RIZEXX; @Silvervigilant

Disagrees: @Lancelot_de_Cancer; @Saiyan40009

Staff Agrees: @KingTempest; @Elizhaa; @DarkDragonMedeus

Staff Disagrees: @Ogbunabali

Edit: Honestly, this thread should be closed and concluded as it seems the same arguments never cease..

Missed me. I agree.

 

[TheUnshakableOne]

Missed me. I agree.

Ah I'm sorry that buddy lol I did that in a hurry

 

[Lancelot_de_Cancer]

I think you are completely missing my point here.

Characters aren't destroying the souls of an entire population of Earth. Some characters do die of old age like normal humans in the verse. Hades is capturing the remaining souls and putting them in his underworld which interferes with the Cycle of Reincarnation by preventing them from moving into that system.

I am not saying Hades is altering it or changing it, but he is simply just a road block that is blocking the passing of people from entering into the system of reincarnation.

Hades does not interfere in the cycle of reincarnation, even his world is part of this system, since his Underworld is probably the Hell described by Shaka in the six worlds of reincarnation.

Saints and humans keep reincarnating in the world, so Seiya is a reincarnation of Tenma, Shaka is a reincarnation of a Buddha, and other characters also mention that they are a reincarnation.

Hades does not alter the cycle of reincarnation, and his world is only a part of this cycle.

You contradicted yourself here. Your yet again changing your point. You are yet again trying to change something to fit your narrative.

t is curious that in the Taizen it is described that Athena has no power over the Underworld of Hades, because it is a world unreachable even by the power of the gods.

I never contradict myself, because literally the Taizen says that Athena has no power over Hades' Underworld, and this is something we can see in the manga, only until the goddess awakens the Eighth Sense can she enter the Underworld to destroy Hades' body and end the holy war forever. Even Dohko clearly states that the Saints and Athena were never able to enter that world in the ancient holy wars.

The Yomotsu Hirasaka is not the Underworld as Deathmask describes.

And this place does not appear on the map of the Underworld created by Masami Kurumada.

We can even see in Next Dimension that the Yomotsu was not destroyed after the death of Hades, therefore, this world is not part of the world created by this god.

If you look very closely you can clearly see that Yomotsu Hirasaka is directly stated to be "THE UNDERWORLD!" in those scans.

I have more scans but I'm limited to only 20.
[...]

It is curious that most of these images are from manga and series other than Kurumada's manga.

A manga like The Lost Canvas that is a different world from the main universe, where the author has a million mistakes and problems with Kurumada's original idea for her work. Even the concept of the Specters is very different from what is presented in Kurumada's manga.

Okada's work, which was pointed out several times that this author takes a lot of liberties when writing his story, even added a million concepts that are not relevant in Kurumada's work. We can even see the nonsense he invents for Requiem, where now the gods have a different goal than the one shown in Kurumada's work.

They are stories that have several concepts that contradict those shown in Kurumada's work, so they are incompatible. Or maybe later you are going to say that Genrōmaōken is a technique of the Pope, just because in this manga they indicate it, when in Kurumada's work it is said and shown that it is a technique of the Gemini Saint.

Please use Masami Kurumada's original manga to confirm your information, not a secondary canon written by another author.

The Yomotsu Hirasaka has a completely different design in Omega, probably as a consequence of the destruction of the Underworld of Hades and that this place replaced it after the death of the god.
Because if you don't remember, Omega is a continuation of the original anime, where Hades as in the manga was completely destroyed by Athena (even Abzu mentions that Athena is the last of the gods to take over the universe) and the world of the dead he believed disappeared after his death.


Even Hades never names the Yomotsu as one of the worlds that he created and will be destroyed with his death, and the Yomotsu was not destroyed in Omega either, because it still exists after the god's disappearance. This confirms that this place is not part of the god's world.

Again you missed my point, Hades underworld are a blockage on the path to reincarnation. hhhmm maybe i could explain it better. Think of a car on a street, their destination is 50 meters down the road but they got stopped by a police officer. The destination that is 50 meters down on the other end of the street is the system of reincarnation but the police officer is Hades Underworld who takes him to jail for speeding. He is preventing them from reaching their true destination by simply being an obstacle that kidnaps souls.

Hades does not interreumpete or block it in any way, because humans are still reincarnating in the world of the living.

"Yomotsu Hirasaka is not controlled by Hades' But i already debunked with many scans and the opposition is providing no new information.

and "Canons must be separate and not cross scalable" which requires a whole new CRT for that.

lastly their entire argument gets destroyed by this one 1 scan which i shall toss in a quote box below. Which literally states that Underworld can connect to multiple dimensions. Which gets reinforced by evidence I already presented in the OP.

You have NOT debunked anything, and simply the original manga clearly states that it is not part of Hades' Underworld and is not a place controlled by the god.

This is only valid if the concepts do not contradict each other in the different manga and series, but this is not the case, since we are clearly seeing that the different authors contradict each other and each one has his own description of that world. And in this case, the main author's work takes precedence over a secondary canon, it's the same deal the wiki uses for databooks and anime adaptation.

The argument I use is the description given in the Taizen, Siantia Sho and original manga (Saint Seiya, Next Dimension, Zero, Origin and Destiny) about that place. On the contrary, your whole argument depends on a manga like Episode.G that will never take priority over Kurumada's original manga and a manga like TLC that has a million problems with Kurumada's work (even directly considered as a different universe). If you want to argue against the explained, please use data from the original manga and not a secondary canon.