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(Saint Seiya) Small but Massive Hax potency Upgrade

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TheUnshakableOne

She/Her
VS Battles
Retired
6,436
1,664

The Proposal


Soul, and Mind Hax + the resistance to those abilities be upgraded to = Infinite + Countless + billions

NOTE: This is NOT an attempt to upgrade the Cosmology, or anyone's AP. That kind of discussion should be left for a different CRT.

The Cosmological Explanation


Hades Underworld Constructs - Hades Underworld takes in souls from all worlds. These Souls have their minds dominated by his divine will, so he possesses them in both soul and mind. Elaborating more, The Underworld was used by Aiolos to connect to different worlds in the multiverse. Saint Seiya Omega says that the Underworld takes in Souls not only from "This World' but from "other worlds."

And since I know there is going to be that one guy in the crowd that says it. The "pRiMaRy CaNoN" also reiterates this. Athena was sent to the past OF A PARRELEL UNIVERSE. It was directly stated to be a "A Dimension" and it was directly stated to be a world with a "Different Time Axis." In addition to that, the classic manga even directly says that Super Dimensional Space (A construct of Hades creations) can send you to "Another Dimension." [here is an other scan that says that]. Shun and Seiya are in two completely different Space-Time Universes (the next link is a different scan) altogether, but yet Shun was able to see Seiya (a different scan coming up) walking to his permanent death in the Underworld that for some reason should belong to another Universe but we won't talk about that. So, there is "CaNoNiCaL" evidence of Hades being able to pull in souls from other completely separate Spacetime Universes.

Here is perhaps some other additional information that maybe helpful. Hades Underworld exist "above" all these worlds. Lost Canvas describes the Underworld as a higher plane that requires ascension to reach (see the translation below for that information). Episode G Tartarus (apart of The Underworld and Realms of the dead weirdly enough) is directly shown to be above the living world, (another statement from the same series is stated here) and the weakened titans were literally creating full Spacetime-Universes there. In the "CaNoN" kiki points up saying an attack is coming from above them (more evidence is seen here) when Thanatos who was in Elysium (a world in the Underworld of Hades control) sending an attack to them. So not only is the Underworld taking in souls from "all worlds" but it is also existing as a higher realm that requires ascension beyond the living world. Additionally, The "Hypermyth" describes Hades Underworld as a "dimensional plane."

Lastly for this cosmological discussion. Saint Seiya Omega tells us that there is infinite worlds via infinite possibilities. Next Dimension shows us that within a Universe (Also called Macrocosmo) each "Nebula" is in fact another separate full space-time universe, a different dimension, a different Time Axis (See links to images here -- here -- and here) Assassins uses the Kanji for the literal definition for the word multiverse (多元宇宙論) and Santia Sho not only tells us there is infinite worlds, but that there is also branching worlds that expand out from the infinite possibilities + it also tells us that each Galaxy is also a Universe. (see the translations below)

Santia Sho Translations

Chapter 80

P4
Shoko: Uh ...
Shoko: Where are the girls .......!?
Shoko: Mii !? Xiaoling !!
Shoko: Elda !! Katya ... Where are you!?
Shoko: What happened ...?
Shoko: What is this place ...

P5 Shoko: What ...!?
Shoko: There's a galaxy ... Coming here !!
Shoko: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!

Chapter 81

P1

Shaka: Spend the time ...?
Shaka: Are you renouncing to fight?
Dysnomia: Hehe ...
Dysnomia: I've already put you in "quarantine"
Dysnomia: My job as a dryad is done, don't you agree?
Dysnomia: Fighting now is meaningless ... I'm actually not interested
Dysnomia: Furthermore, I want to know more about you ... Mister Shaka
Shaka: ..........
Shaka: What on earth
Shaka: Is this place?

P2 & P3

Dysnomia: Heh ... You see ...
Dysnomia: This is the place where all space-time from all Universes converges
Dysnomia: From the Myth Era to a far away future
Dysnomia: You can access it all from here, as you wish

Shaka was taken by Dysnomia's Reverse of Universe ...

Stage 81: Justice of the Saints / Justice for Saints

Dysnomia: A forbidden place where not even the gods eyes can reach
Dysnomia: ... Do you get it?
Dysnomia: If you look at any event or fate chosen by the stars
Dysnomia: They are just small fragments among millions of sparks
Dysnomia: Very, very tiny ...

P4

Dysnomia: Oh, look ...
Dysnomia: It seems a new universe
Dysnomia: Is being born ...

P26

Shoko: Wahh ... Huh ...? I ...
Shoko: It's already morning .......... Hey, what's up ... Seems I had a long dream ...

P27

Dad: C'mon, Shoko! Are you gonna sleep forever ?!
Dad: They say a messy life is a messy mind!
Dad: Time for morning practice is already over!
Dad: Ghaa !!
Shoko: Dad, how many times did I tell not to come in without knocking?
Dad: Hurry up and get yourself ready!
Shoko: Okay, right!

P28

Shoko: ... Has this photo ..........
Shoko: Been always like that .......?

Chapter 82

P13

Dysnomia?: Such a shame
Dysnomia?: We can see everything from here, but we can't interfere in anything
Dysnomia: If we could...
Dysnomia: We would be gods, right? Hehe...
Shaka: ........ Yes
Shaka: So I'll have to defeat you and get away
Dysnomia: ..... Huh?

P14 & P15

Dysnomia: !!
Dysnomia: PERSONAL FIELD
Dysnomia: ... It didn't work...
Dysnomia: Are you already adapted to this dimension in such a short time?

P16

Dysnomia: Unbelievable... Amazing
Dysnomia: You're the soulmate* I've been searching for
Dysnomia: You won't escape....!!
Dysnomia: ABSOLUTE CONFINEMENT

*運命の人(うんめいのひと)= "destined person"

P17

Dysnomia: Don't go away, mister Shaka...
Dysnomia: I'm the only one able to understand your amazing nature
Dysnomia: Why would you go back to a world fated to be destroyed?
Shaka: Dysnomia...
Shaka: We could never understand each other
Shaka: It's wrong to say we can see everything from here
Disnomia: Huh....?
Shaka: You said the uncountable(or translation says countless) sparks seen from here
Shaka: Are too tiny

P18 & P19

Shaka: From here, we can't see the universe inside people's hearts...
Shaka: The ephemeral spark from living beings, that disperses into the infinite
Shaka: The source to create a new future
Shaka: The world's destruction is not settled

Shaka: Farewell
Disnomia: Mister Shaka...
Disnomia: So noble...

Summary: That Galaxy was actually a whole Space-Time Continuume Low 2-C Universe. We learn from Dysnomnia that each Universe has its own expanding multiverse, but Shaka also confirms that there is infinite worlds (In the world of SS future = a universe) Shaka in that last paragraph is referencing the power of Cosmo, and Miracles which is infinite.

Also, Eris later confirmed that she created that it was Universe that Shoko called a "galaxy."

Lost Canvas Translations

P02 / 03

Ilias: They are right.

Ilias: But, Sisyphus, from what perspective are you saying this?



Sisyphus: How is it ...?!

Ilias: I see ... You mean physical death ...

Ilias: Anyway, what I got in life was just my destiny.

Ilias: I can even say that I went further ...

Ilias: By nature, death is not the end of everything.

Ilias: It is just a change of state, the soul ascending to another plane.

Asmita: ...

Sisyphus: Hahaha

Sisyphus: It remains the same as always.

Sisyphus: I used to find these conversations strange.

Sisyphus: This is definitely my brother.



P04 / 05

Sisyphus: A change of state?

Sisyphus: If that's what happens, brother ...

Sisyphus: ... Then why didn't you return to the Sanctuary ?!

Sisyphus: Right now, the Sanctuary ... The whole world is being threatened by Hades.

Sisyphus: Even Regulus had to live desperately in the woods after his death.

Sisyphus: And you were just watching ?!

Ilias: You haven't changed at all, Sisyphus.

Sisyphus: Tsc ...

Sisyphus: What ?!



Sisyphus: Uooo !!!!

Asmita: Sisyphus !!

Asmita: ...

Asmita: At what point did he ...?



P06 / 07

Ilias: What did you think, Asmita?

Asmita: Tsc ...

Ilias: You came to this place to talk to me, right?

Sisyphus: Tsc ...

Asmita: Yes.

Asmita: I've been feeling it since the moment I arrived at the Sanctuary.

Asmita: In a weak way in the wind, his presence, Sisyphus must have felt it too ... But for me his presence was like a fever.



Asmita: I felt like there was a thin membrane that went to an elevated plane on which it was and that I couldn't be able to reach.

Asmita: But now, in that moment, you are before me.

Asmita: So show me your essence ...

Asmita: ... The Eighth Sense!



P08 / 09

Asmita: TREASURE FROM THE SKY !!!!

Sisyphus: That is ... The greatest technique of the Virgo Knight, only referenced in rumors!

Asmita: This technique removes the opponent's five senses as I wish.

Asmita: It can be said that it is a battlefield both offensive and defensive.



Asmita: For you who do not have a physical body, the removal of the five senses will leave the plane of your soul exposed!

Asmita: Deprived of senses !!



P10 / 11

Asmita: So ... Show me what will happen in the end ...

Asmita: ... Mister Ilias!

Sisyphus: Asmita, no!

Sisyphus: Don't underestimate my brother's power!

Asmita: ...!

Ilias: Indeed, it is an intriguing and difficult technique ...

Ilias: In that case, let me ask who you are.



Ilias: You cannot completely eliminate my senses.

Asmita: What? !!

Asmita: He's going through Heaven's Treasure!

Sisyphus: Asmita, dodge!

Sisyphus: My brother cannot moderate himself!



P12 / 13

Ilias: I'm happy, Asmita.

Ilias: See that someone like you is growing up in the Sanctuary.

Ilias: You are on a private quest for your own senses.

Ilias: You were able to isolate yourself internally, coupled with a strong understanding of the world panorama.

Ilias: This is your territory of thought within my territory of thought.

Ilias: You are powerful enough to summon the Treasure of Heaven.



Ilias: But it is still very immature.

Ilias: And you should pay attention to that now!

Ilias: PLASMA LIGHTNING !!!



P14 / 15

Asmita: AAAAAAAAARGH !!!

Asmita: I'm being crushed ... But I must resist!

Asmita: Sir Ilias' own territory seems to be dividing me!

Asmita: Certainly, in this world, Ilias' intense thoughts and desires materialize.

Asmita: In other words, an unreachable world unless this phenomenon is reproduced.

Asmita: I have to sharpen my senses and search even more deeply in me ... More deeply ...

Asmita: Even more ...



Asmita: More deeply within me ...

Ilias: All those who were born on the surface and were called enlightened ...

Ilias: ... You were able to awaken the Eighth Sense through a life of meditation and prayer.

Ilias: This is what Cosmo is.

Ilias: The Eighth Sense is not exclusive to the Knights, it is a place where every living thing on Earth should be able to reach.

Ilias: The prayers and wishes that are in harmony with the universe become the Cosmos.

Ilias: ... Being able to overcome even the notions of time and space ... And it is capable of transforming itself into a force capable of performing miracles.



P16 / 17

Ilias: Unfortunately the people of Earth have forgotten this, they ignore the need for prayers and harmony.

Ilias: They are entering an era of lies, exploitation, destruction and division.

Ilias: And the prophecy says ...

Ilias: "A dome full of ash will fall into the land of the sun"



Sisyphus: Asmita !!!

Asmita: The foundation of the universe exists both inside and outside ...

Asmita: That's right until the end.



P18 / 19

-



Sisyphus: The Cosmos of Asmita is expanding!

Sisyphus: Expanding beyond your territory of thought ...

Asmita: It's like being released from a kind of restriction ...

Asmita: How I was able to understand the structure of this world from the beginning ...

Asmita: ... I know who I am.

Asmita: My thoughts went beyond the notions of time and space ...

Asmita: ... There is no doubt whatsoever ...

Summary: The Underworld is a higher plane that requires ascension to reach

Summary of proposal:


Hades should have Soul, and Mind Hax on a scale of Infinite + Countless + X-Crap-Tons-of-billions. He takes in souls from past, present, and future from all worlds. Each soul has their mind dominated by Hades Divine will.

Infinite = From Infinite Universes

Countless = Each universe that branches off from the "Infinite possibilities" has their own multiverse that expands out

X-Crap-Tons-Of-Billions = The amount of people having their soul and mind dominated by Hades Divine Will in each Universe

So you get something like "Infinite + Countless + Billions (Plural)" soul and mind hax potency.

The beings whom have awakened their 8th Sense are immune to Hades control once they enter into His Underworld.

I believe the characters already have these abilities on their profile just to a lower extent than what is being proposed here. So this CRT is to upgrade that extent to a much higher extent.

In short, The potency for both Mind Hax, and Soul Hax along with resistance to such hax to be increased to "Infinite + Countless + Billions"

This is NOT and attempt to upgrade the cosmology of the verse. That can be done on a Separate CRT.

Lastly, the wiki already accepts all works of Saint Seiya to be canon and cross scalable. if someone disagrees with that it would require a separate CRT to avoid cluttering this one up.

 
I agree that the Underworlds in Saint Seiya have influence over the whole cosmology as we know from GA and ND that the Underworld can be used to travel throughout the cosmology and as Zeus says "any time, any universe, any world":




Even Marin and Athena speculate Aiolos and Zeus threaten all timelines (which we know they were using one of the UW's to travel through):



So we see here that the UW can indeed be used to travel the entirety of the cosmology.

Edit: as for the hax potency, I have no idea how that works
 
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The Cosmological Explanation


Hades Underworld Constructs - Hades Underworld takes in souls from all worlds. These Souls have their minds dominated by his divine will, so he possesses them in both soul and mind. Elaborating more, The Underworld was used by Aiolos to connect to different worlds in the multiverse. Saint Seiya Omega says that the Underworld takes in Souls not only from "This World' but from "other worlds."
This part is wrong.

Each universe has its own Underworld, and that Underworld only receives the souls of its universe. And Aiolos was using a portal to connect the worlds, not the Underworld. The portal that was created with a strange ritual where Aiolos sacrificed the Athena of his world.

In the last image the Yomotsu Hirakada is described, not the Underworld.
pnczMu1.jpeg
The Yomotsu Hirasaka is a completely different dimension from the Underworld. That is why it is described that in that place it is packed with soul's belonging to neither our world nor that of the dead, because the Yomotsu Hirakasa is the world between life and death.
Here is perhaps some other additional information that maybe helpful. Hades Underworld exist "above" all these worlds. Lost Canvas describes the Underworld as a higher plane that requires ascension to reach (see the translation below for that information). Episode G Tartarus (apart of The Underworld and Realms of the dead weirdly enough) is directly shown to be above the living world, (another statement from the same series is stated here) and the weakened titans were literally creating full Spacetime-Universes there. In the "CaNoN" kiki points up saying an attack is coming from above them (more evidence is seen here) when Thanatos who was in Elysium (a world in the Underworld of Hades control) sending an attack to them. So not only is the Underworld taking in souls from "all worlds" but it is also existing as a higher realm that requires ascension beyond the living world. Additionally, The "Hypermyth" describes Hades Underworld as a "dimensional plane."
The Underworld is never described as a higher dimension in TLC.

The Earth that is described in Episode.G in Tartarus is the Earth of that place, not the planet Earth.

The Hypermith has no importance to the franchise, even Kurumada does not consider it part of the canon or the multiverse of the franchise. And the new version of Hypermith removes all that information.
Lost Canvas Translations
P02 / 03

Ilias: They are right.

Ilias: But, Sisyphus, from what perspective are you saying this?



Sisyphus: How is it ...?!

Ilias: I see ... You mean physical death ...

Ilias: Anyway, what I got in life was just my destiny.

Ilias: I can even say that I went further ...

Ilias: By nature, death is not the end of everything.

Ilias: It is just a change of state, the soul ascending to another plane.

Asmita: ...

Sisyphus: Hahaha

Sisyphus: It remains the same as always.

Sisyphus: I used to find these conversations strange.

Sisyphus: This is definitely my brother.



P04 / 05

Sisyphus: A change of state?

Sisyphus: If that's what happens, brother ...

Sisyphus: ... Then why didn't you return to the Sanctuary ?!

Sisyphus: Right now, the Sanctuary ... The whole world is being threatened by Hades.

Sisyphus: Even Regulus had to live desperately in the woods after his death.

Sisyphus: And you were just watching ?!

Ilias: You haven't changed at all, Sisyphus.

Sisyphus: Tsc ...

Sisyphus: What ?!



Sisyphus: Uooo !!!!

Asmita: Sisyphus !!

Asmita: ...

Asmita: At what point did he ...?



P06 / 07

Ilias: What did you think, Asmita?

Asmita: Tsc ...

Ilias: You came to this place to talk to me, right?

Sisyphus: Tsc ...

Asmita: Yes.

Asmita: I've been feeling it since the moment I arrived at the Sanctuary.

Asmita: In a weak way in the wind, his presence, Sisyphus must have felt it too ... But for me his presence was like a fever.



Asmita: I felt like there was a thin membrane that went to an elevated plane on which it was and that I couldn't be able to reach.

Asmita: But now, in that moment, you are before me.

Asmita: So show me your essence ...

Asmita: ... The Eighth Sense!



P08 / 09

Asmita: TREASURE FROM THE SKY !!!!

Sisyphus: That is ... The greatest technique of the Virgo Knight, only referenced in rumors!

Asmita: This technique removes the opponent's five senses as I wish.

Asmita: It can be said that it is a battlefield both offensive and defensive.



Asmita: For you who do not have a physical body, the removal of the five senses will leave the plane of your soul exposed!

Asmita: Deprived of senses !!



P10 / 11

Asmita: So ... Show me what will happen in the end ...

Asmita: ... Mister Ilias!

Sisyphus: Asmita, no!

Sisyphus: Don't underestimate my brother's power!

Asmita: ...!

Ilias: Indeed, it is an intriguing and difficult technique ...

Ilias: In that case, let me ask who you are.



Ilias: You cannot completely eliminate my senses.

Asmita: What? !!

Asmita: He's going through Heaven's Treasure!

Sisyphus: Asmita, dodge!

Sisyphus: My brother cannot moderate himself!



P12 / 13

Ilias: I'm happy, Asmita.

Ilias: See that someone like you is growing up in the Sanctuary.

Ilias: You are on a private quest for your own senses.

Ilias: You were able to isolate yourself internally, coupled with a strong understanding of the world panorama.

Ilias: This is your territory of thought within my territory of thought.

Ilias: You are powerful enough to summon the Treasure of Heaven.



Ilias: But it is still very immature.

Ilias: And you should pay attention to that now!

Ilias: PLASMA LIGHTNING !!!



P14 / 15

Asmita: AAAAAAAAARGH !!!

Asmita: I'm being crushed ... But I must resist!

Asmita: Sir Ilias' own territory seems to be dividing me!

Asmita: Certainly, in this world, Ilias' intense thoughts and desires materialize.

Asmita: In other words, an unreachable world unless this phenomenon is reproduced.

Asmita: I have to sharpen my senses and search even more deeply in me ... More deeply ...

Asmita: Even more ...



Asmita: More deeply within me ...

Ilias: All those who were born on the surface and were called enlightened ...

Ilias: ... You were able to awaken the Eighth Sense through a life of meditation and prayer.

Ilias: This is what Cosmo is.

Ilias: The Eighth Sense is not exclusive to the Knights, it is a place where every living thing on Earth should be able to reach.

Ilias: The prayers and wishes that are in harmony with the universe become the Cosmos.

Ilias: ... Being able to overcome even the notions of time and space ... And it is capable of transforming itself into a force capable of performing miracles.



P16 / 17

Ilias: Unfortunately the people of Earth have forgotten this, they ignore the need for prayers and harmony.

Ilias: They are entering an era of lies, exploitation, destruction and division.

Ilias: And the prophecy says ...

Ilias: "A dome full of ash will fall into the land of the sun"



Sisyphus: Asmita !!!

Asmita: The foundation of the universe exists both inside and outside ...

Asmita: That's right until the end.



P18 / 19

-



Sisyphus: The Cosmos of Asmita is expanding!

Sisyphus: Expanding beyond your territory of thought ...

Asmita: It's like being released from a kind of restriction ...

Asmita: How I was able to understand the structure of this world from the beginning ...

Asmita: ... I know who I am.

Asmita: My thoughts went beyond the notions of time and space ...

Asmita: ... There is no doubt whatsoever ...

Summary: The Underworld is a higher plane that requires ascension to reach
First, this fight was just an illusion.

This fight is a mental plane, not a physical plane. Also, they do not describe a higher plane as a higher dimension, because the concept is different and this refers to the way they perceive the world, a more philosophical aspect, because they are talking about the concept of the enlightenment of man presented in Buddhism.
 
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This part is wrong.

Each universe has its own Underworld, and that Underworld only receives the souls of its universe. And Aiolos was using a portal to connect the worlds, not the Underworld. The portal that was created with a strange ritual where Aiolos sacrificed the Athena of his world.

Each Macrocosmo has its own underworld sure, not each universe. For example, Chronos was simply called a "Universe" but that is simply not the case. His Nebula's are in fact other space-time universes as I have posted and shown in the OP. This Timeline-inside-a-Timeline thing is called a "Macrocosmo" in the verse. and As I have shown and posted in the OP, The Underworld takes souls from those other worlds.

Also I don't think you can debunk a very straight forward and direct statement saying as this which literally says he uses the Underworld for his plans. you simply cannot decontextualize, or misinterpret this quote any other way. I don't understand how you are. You cannot get a more direct quote than this.

and the Japanese Raws also say the same exact thing.

In the last image the Yomotsu Hirakada is described, not the Underworld.
pnczMu1.jpeg
The Yomotsu Hirasaka is a completely different dimension from the Underworld. That is why it is described that in that place it is packed with soul's belonging to neither our world nor that of the dead, because the Yomotsu Hirakasa is the world between life and death.
This is also wrong, Hades Divine Will extends to yomotsu hirakasa. Also, Yomotsu Hirasaka is under Hades Jurisdiction. Even entering into you will make you subjected to Hades rule. This is something reiterated in the Classic Manga when the Saints have to awaken their 8th sense. Shun amd Seiya end up in Yomotsu Hirasaka evne though Dohko says they must enter alive with the 8th sense or die.

The Underworld is never described as a higher dimension in TLC.

I never said it was.

The Earth that is described in the Episode Tartarus is the Earth of that place, not the planet Earth.

This is derailing this isn't important to this CRT.

The Hypermith has no importance to the franchise, even Kurumada does not consider it part of the canon or the multiverse of the franchise. And the new version of Hypermith removes all that information.
Again derailing and not important. The Hypermyth is also just conjecture reached by the Graad Foundation anyways.


First, this fight was just an illusion. This fight is a mental plane, not a physical plane. Also, they do not describe a higher plane as a higher dimension, because the concept is different and this refers to the way they perceive the world, a more philosophical aspect, because they are talking about the concept of the enlightenment of man presented in Buddhism.

This doesn't disprove anything. They were exchanging information during the fight. They were learning about the 8th sense and where the Underworld stands cosmologically. Illusions, philosophy, etc is irrelevant. I highlighted the important parts using "Bolding" or "blacking out" the important sentences.

Also again where did i say i was arguing for higher dimensionality? Take that to a separate CRT i don't want to talk Attack Potency tiers here on this CRT. Simply being above a universe, or beyond the multiverse doesn't inheirtly mean its a higher dimension either.
 
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Each Macrocosmo has its own underworld sure, not each universe. For example, Chronos was simply called a "Universe" but that is simply not the case. His Nebula's are in fact other space-time universes as I have posted and shown in the OP. This Timeline-inside-a-Timeline thing is called a "Macrocosmo" in the verse. and As I have shown and posted in the OP, The Underworld takes souls from those other worlds.

Also I don't think you can debunk a very straight forward and direct statement saying as this which literally says he uses the Underworld for his plans. you simply cannot decontextualize, or misinterpret this quote any other way. I don't understand how you are. You cannot get a more direct quote than this.
and the Japanese Raws also say the same exact thing.
Each universe has its own version of the Underworld, as shown in the classic manga and Darkwing, and the word macrocosm is never mentioned in your example of Assassin. The Underworld never took souls from other worlds, this is not even described in Omega, where it is clearly stated that the souls that are in the Yomotsu Hirasaka do not belong to the world of death and the world of the living, because they are trapped in that world.

Aiolos only says that he opened several doors to the Underworld, because he was resurrecting the dead.

This is the power of the black core that he used to connect the worlds.
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KWFaNSC.jpg

gQFiUwr.jpg

od7lbCv.jpg
This is also wrong, Hades Divine Will extends to yomotsu hirakasa. Also, Yomotsu Hirasaka is under Hades Jurisdiction. Even entering into you will make you subjected to Hades rule. This is something reiterated in the Classic Manga when the Saints have to awaken their 8th sense. Shun amd Seiya end up in Yomotsu Hirasaka evne though Dohko says they must enter alive with the 8th sense or die.
No, the Yomotsu Hirasaka is a different world and Hades is not in control of that world, even Athena created a barrier there and the goddess has no power over Hades' world (confirmed even in the Taizen). And the Yomotsu Hirasaka still exists after Hades' death.

This is not the case in Kurumada's manga. Deathmask describes that the Yomotsu Hirasaka is not part of the world of the dead, it is just a world between the world of the living and the dead. The world of the dead is only reached when you fall through the hole in that place. Even Deathmask and Shiryu can be in that place, without awakening the Eighth Sense.
T9Odxmf.jpg

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J1iozRH.jpg


--------------------------------------

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The chaos of that place was created by the black core that connected the worlds.
This is derailing this isn't important to this CRT.
It is important, because you are using wrong information or misinterpreting a sentence.
Again derailing and not important. The Hypermyth is also just conjecture reached by the Graad Foundation anyways
It is just a non-canonical work for the franchise and even has a new version that removes all the information from the first version.
This doesn't disprove anything. They were exchanging information during the fight. They were learning about the 8th sense and where the Underworld stands cosmologically. Illusions, philosophy, etc is irrelevant. I highlighted the important parts using "Bolding" or "blacking out" the important sentences.

Also again where did i say i was arguing for higher dimensionality? Take that to a separate CRT i don't want to talk Attack Potency tiers here on this CRT. Simply being above a universe, or beyond the multiverse doesn't inheirtly mean its a higher dimension either.
The fight was only an illusion and what is described is only a philosophical and mental aspect. And nothing special is ever described of the Underworld, it is never said that it is above the universe, it is only described as another dimension, a dimension where you need the Eighth Sense to not be subject to the rules of Hades.
 
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Each universe has its own version of the Underworld, as shown in the classic manga and Darkwing,

Darkwing is its own Macorcosmo. There is only 1 underworld per macrocosmo as I have shown in the OP. This is becoming a repeating argument that is already debunked. ND has disproved this.

If there is an underworld for every universe (infinite underworlds) then we would have never seen Seiya in the Underworld of a "past/Another World." So your argument here holds no weight and makes 0 sense.

The Underworld never took souls from other worlds

ND proves this wrong as I already have posted the scans in the OP. Your argument here makes 0 sense. If there is truly an Underworld for every Universe then please explain why we see Seiya in Tenma's Universe-Underworld when Seiya should be in his own Universes Underworld. This makes 0 sense.

this is not even described in Omega, where it is clearly stated that the souls that are in the Yomotsu Hirasaka do not belong to the world of death and the world of the living, because they are trapped in that world.

Where does this scan imply they are trapped in that world? I don't see that anywhere where this is implied. This is some massive reaching and headcanon.

Aiolos only says that he opened several doors to the Underworld, because he was resurrecting the dead.

This is the power of the black core that he used to connect the worlds.

here we go again with misinterpretation and decontextualization.

This time I will make it easier for you to see.


3T7ptHb.jpg


Link to the original scan is here

I have no idea how to make this more obvious to you. Aiolios directly stated himself that the Black Core is the UnderWorld. I have no idea how to make that more clear. How much more of a direct statement do you need?

No, the Yomotsu Hirasaka is a different world and Hades is not in control of that world, even Athena created a barrier there and the goddess has no power over Hades' world (confirmed even in the Taizen). And the Yomotsu Hirasaka still exists after Hades' death.

I am sorry to say this my mans, but Taizen and Hypermyth are secondary canons. Their databooks. The classic manga rules over them if there is any contradictions. Which there is here. Dohko explicitly states that the 8th sense is needed to enter the Underworld or be subjected to Hades law.

Scan will be in the quote box below



This is not the case in Kurumada's manga. Deathmask describes that the Yomotsu Hirasaka is not part of the world of the dead, it is just a world between the world of the living and the dead. The world of the dead is only reached when you fall through the hole in that place. Even Deathmask and Shiryu can be in that place, without awakening the Eighth Sense.

Deathmask has a reason explained in the manga. The cancer saints have historically always been connected in some way or form with the underworld. Hence their signature move is "Underworld Conferment Wave." Which they causally use this link to travel between locations. So, yes part of the nature of the constellation Cancer is to be resistant to Underworld Hax. Shiryu on the other hand already was put near death twice, and lastly he was protected not only by Athena's power but also by the prayers of his Girlfriend. Which happened the very moment he was sent to the Underworld.
----
The chaos of that place was created by the black core that connected the worlds.
If your going to use this argument. Then your also agreeing with the idea that the Underworld is used as the connector between worlds.

It is important, because you are using wrong information or misinterpreting a sentence.
The titans literally said themselves they are in Tartarus

The fight was only an illusion and what is described is only a philosophical and mental aspect. And nothing special is ever described of the Underworld, it is never said that it is above the universe, it is only described as another dimension, a dimension where you need the Eighth Sense to not be subject to the rules of Hades.


Ilias: It is just a change of state, the soul ascending to another plane.


Asmita: I felt like there was a thin membrane that went to an elevated plane on which it was and that I couldn't be able to reach.


Asmita: For you who do not have a physical body, the removal of the five senses will leave the plane of your soul exposed!


Ilias: ... Being able to overcome even the notions of time and space ..


Asmita: My thoughts went beyond the notions of time and space ...


As I have said, I bolded the important parts.






Also while I was looking through the classic series. I found this scan which says souls ascend.


2.) How can every universe have their own Underworld when in Santia Sho when Dyssomnia saw that a world was being created they never made any mentioning of a new God being born?

3.) Any arguments of what is canon, and what is not canon, needs to be taken to a separate CRT.
 
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Darkwing is its own Macorcosmo. There is only 1 underworld per macrocosmo as I have shown in the OP. This is becoming a repeating argument that is already debunked. ND has disproved this.

If there is an underworld for every universe (infinite underworlds) then we would have never seen Seiya in the Underworld of a "past/Another World." So your argument here holds no weight and makes 0 sense.
No, Dark Wing and all the series of the franchise are part of the same multiverse, because there is only one multiverse in the franchise. What you mention about the macrocosm is never mentioned in this franchise, the macrocosm seems to be a way of naming the multiverse by Kurumada. There is an Underworld and a version of Hades for each universe in the multiverse.

It is the past of that world and Shun was moved to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future by the distortion in time and space, even Shaka and Shijima traveled to the future by that distortion.

That the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a different world of the Underworld as described by Deathmask himself in the manga.
here we go again with misinterpretation and decontextualization.

This time I will make it easier for you to see.

Link to the original scan is here

I have no idea how to make this more obvious to you. Aiolios directly stated himself that the Black Core is the UnderWorld. I have no idea how to make that more clear. How much more of a direct statement do you need?
Aiolos only created a portal to the Underworld, because the power of the black core allows him to connect worlds. A portal appeared in the Tartarus and Underworld, because Aioros was resurrecting the dead.

The power of the black core is to connect worlds as Aiolos explains in this scene, where he even explains why this portal became stronger and thanks to that he was able to move his entire planet to this world.


This has nothing to do with the Underworld that only exists in one universe, and each universe has its own Underworld.
I am sorry to say this my mans, but Taizen and Hypermyth are secondary canons. Their databooks. The classic manga rules over them if there is any contradictions. Which there is here. Dohko explicitly states that the 8th sense is needed to enter the Underworld or be subjected to Hades law.

Scan will be in the quote box below

Deathmask has a reason explained in the manga. The cancer saints have historically always been connected in some way or form with the underworld. Hence their signature move is "Underworld Conferment Wave." Which they causally use this link to travel between locations. So, yes part of the nature of the constellation Cancer is to be resistant to Underworld Hax. Shiryu on the other hand already was put near death twice, and lastly he was protected not only by Athena's power but also by the prayers of his Girlfriend. Which happened the very moment he was sent to the Underworld.
Taizen was supervised by Kurumada, a fact that appears in the pages of that work, even has more importance to the franchise than a manga like Episode.G.

Dohko explains that to enter the Underworld alive they need to awaken the Eighth Sense.


This is the Underworld.
zdI5okS.jpg


This is the world where Seiya and the rest fall when they were thrown down the hole in Hades' castle.


This is the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a different world of the Underworld.
kz7eo4W.jpg


A world that is not governed, nor created by any god, even Athena can intervene and create a barrier for this world. Athena herself cannot enter the Underworld without awakening the Eighth Sense.

Deathmask died when he fell into the hole of the Yomotsu that leads to the Underworld.
O7w6D2z.jpg

WltQYDI.jpg


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4awrOps.jpg

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Deathmask has no protection against the power of Hades, he even died and was condemned to the Underworld like the rest of the Saints.
de27.jpg

de28.jpg

de29.jpg

de30.jpg

In Saintia Sho, Mu also entered the Yomotsu Hirasaka without awakening the Eighth Sense.
pPZiaLI.jpg

yGYAXBx.jpg

fDgvfUu.jpg

7AOwK6E.jpg

Athena cannot protect the Saints of the Underworld, she could not even enter that place in any holy war, because she does not have the power to intervene in that world.
If your going to use this argument. Then your also agreeing with the idea that the Underworld is used as the connector between worlds.
No, because Aiolos created a portal in that world, just as he created a portal between the two planets.
The titans literally said themselves they are in Tartarus
This does not matter, because the Underworld is not above the world of the living. In addition in Episode.G the Tartarus is not part of the Underworld of Hades, even the Saints entered that place without awakening the Eighth Sense. In Next Dimension we can see that only Asclepius exists in that place, it is a prison for this powerful being.
Ilias: It is just a change of state, the soul ascending to another plane.

Asmita: I felt like there was a thin membrane that went to an elevated plane on which it was and that I couldn't be able to reach.

Asmita: For you who do not have a physical body, the removal of the five senses will leave the plane of your soul exposed!

Ilias: ... Being able to overcome even the notions of time and space ..

Asmita: My thoughts went beyond the notions of time and space ...


As I have said, I bolded the important parts.
Later it is revealed that this whole scene was an illusion that occurred on a mental plane. Asmita never had to reach a higher plane, because it was all an illusion.
Also while I was looking through the classic series. I found this scan which says souls ascend.

2.) How can every universe have their own Underworld when in Santia Sho when Dyssomnia saw that a world was being created they never made any mentioning of a new God being born?

3.) Any arguments of what is canon, and what is not canon, needs to be taken to a separate CRT.
1) In Saint Seiya's universe there is not even heaven for mortals.
2) Because this is a world created by Eris and she only created a replica of the physical world.
3) Kurumada's work (as the main author) is a higher canon in the franchise, the rest are just a secondary canon.
 
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I am just going to skip over the parts that keep getting repeated in circles, and continuously debunked by me other wise this CRT will never conclude.

It is the past of that world and Shun was moved to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future by the distortion in time and space, even Shaka and Shijima traveled to the future by that distortion.


So Shun was moved to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future? So then how are Tenma, and That Cancer Gold Saint there then? The future is a completely different spacetime continuum as I have shown in the OP. Again this argument isn't making any sense.

Also, the distortion in time and space doesn't appear or happen for quiet some time until after the scene of Shun seeing Seiya. Another hole in your argument. There is no provable connection between the two.

Additionally, Another Dimension works when used on Shun and Tenma. However, later when used on Ody it fails. So, your distortion argument also fails here.


This is the world where Seiya and the rest fall when they were thrown down the hole in Hades' castle.

I pulled this straight from the taizen.



This is what it says.

1. Portal do Inferno Portal que indica a entrada para o Inferno. Quando Seiya e Shun chegam ao Mundo dos Mortos, esse passam portal rumo à bataIha.

1. Portal of Hell Portal that indicates the entrance to Hell. When Seiya and Shun arrive in the Underworld, Shun pass the portal towards the battle.

When Seiya and Shun arrive in the underworld they are in Yomotsu Hirasaka and they stated to be in the Underworld.

Doesn't look like the Taizen supports your claim either.

Death Mask died when he fell into the hole of the Yomotsu that leads to the Underworld. Deathmask has no protection against the power of Hades, he even died and was condemned to the Underworld like the rest of the Saints.

This disproves nothing. He died when he fell down the hole because you lose your constellations protection once in the underworld. You lose that weird abstract nature of your stars fate/destiny. (Still trying to figure out what that ability/power is in wiki terms)

As ND reiterates what the classic series told us. Cancer Saints have some measure of resistance to those powers at Yomotsu Hirsaka. The Cancer Constellation is the closest to the Underworld. Those who are affected by the Cancer Saints signature move aren't subjected to Hades Law.

Edit: The signature move of the cancer saint opens the Gateway to Yomotsu Hirasaka, and that gateway doesn't close immediately. Those affected by it are not immediately subjected to Hades rule.


In Saintia Sho, Mu also entered the Yomotsu Hirasaka without awakening the Eighth Sense.


How Mu is able to do this is also explained in ND. The space where the portal is opened to enter Yomotsu Hirasaka by the use of the Cancer's Saint Signature move is not stable or completely closed. As Athena explains to Shun, Shun can use this weakness to escape.


This does not matter, because the Underworld is not above the world of the living. Also, in Episode.G the Taratarus is not part of the Underworld of Hades, even the Saints entered that place without awakening the Eighth Sense. Later it is revealed that this whole scene was an illusion that happened on a mental plane. Asmita never had to reach a higher plane, because it was all an illusion.

you literally just ignored a mountain of proof for your own headcanon. Additionally, i said that Taratrus is part of the World of the Dead system. not part of Hades. If i said that then I am sorry.

1) In Saint Seiya's universe there is not even heaven for mortals.
2) Because this is a world created by Eris and she only created a replica of the physical world.
3) Kurumada's work (as the main author) is a higher canon in the franchise, the rest are just a secondary canon.

1.) The Underworld exist above the living worlds as i have shown but this point is irrelvant anymore due to other evidence

2.) except it was called a literal space-time universe. But apparently it has no universe or no gods but Eris. So debunks your argument of every universe has its own underworld. This proves that there are worlds without an underworld.

3.) You have to make a separate CRT for that. this is irrelvant to this CRT and derailing.


4.) Weather or not the Underworld exist above the living worlds is also irrelevant to my proposal. It does not take away the fact that The Underwrold Hades created takes in souls from the entire multiverse.

Edit: A lot of ad-nauseum for ad-Infinium happening here.
 
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3) Kurumada's work (as the main author) is a higher canon in the franchise, the rest are just a secondary canon.

Good thing G is stated by many sources to be written by Kurumada

Not that this even matters, your personal opinion on how you think Saint Seiya's canonicity and what you personally value as "higher canon" is so completely and utterly irrelevant to this CRT. It is currently accepted all works by Okada is canon along with Kurumada's work - there is no "higher" or "lower" canon when it comes to the main manga works.
 
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So Shun was moved to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future? So then how are Tenma, and That Cancer Gold Saint there then? The future is a completely different spacetime continuum as I have shown in the OP. Again this argument isn't making any sense.

Also, the distortion in time and space doesn't appear or happen for quiet some time until after the scene of Shun seeing Seiya. Another hole in your argument. There is no provable connection between the two.

Additionally, Another Dimension works when used on Shun and Tenma. However, later when used on Ody it fails. So, your distortion argument also fails here.
It is the future of that world as explained in the manga itself and that is why Athena traveled in time to change the future.

The distortion in space and time also sent Athena and Shijima to the future (after falling into the labyrinth of the gods, the dimensional technique in the Pope's Temple), where they saw Seiya.
1.jpg

2.jpg

3.jpg
The distortion in space and time that threatens to destroy the universe is affecting the dimensional techniques of the characters.

The distortion in space and time is affecting the time-traveling Saints, and it is sending them to different places in space and time. Shun was sent to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future where he saw Seiya walking around.
I pulled this straight from the taizen.
This is what it says.
The entry that is described in the Taizen is this.
XQ4p7li.jpeg


This is the door or portal that Shun and Seiya cross to enter the Underworld.
6nJzm42.jpeg

gQHr9ko.jpeg

9DpfNvi.jpeg
This is not the Yomotsu Hirasaka.
This disproves nothing. He died when he fell down the hole because you lose your constellations protection once in the underworld. You lose that weird abstract nature of your stars fate/destiny. (Still trying to figure out what that ability/power is in wiki terms)

As ND reiterates what the classic series told us. Cancer Saints have some measure of resistance to those powers at Yomotsu Hirsaka. The Cancer Constellation is the closest to the Underworld. Those who are affected by the Cancer Saints signature move aren't subjected to Hades Law.
No, Deathmask was affected like all Saints when he fell to the Underworld, and died when entering that place like all humans. He has no special protection and his power only allows him to enter the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a world between the world of the living and the dead.

Even Deathmask describes it as the boderland between the realms of the livig and dead.
kz7eo4W.jpg


Shun only mentions the Cancer Saint's ability to travel to the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a place where there is an entrance to the Underworld (the hole leading to the Underworld).

The Yomotsu Hirasaka is not the Underworld and it is not part of this world either, because it is a completely different world.
How Mu is able to do this is also explained in ND. The space where the portal is opened to enter Yomotsu Hirasaka by the use of the Cancer's Saint Signature move is not stable or completely closed. As Athena explains to Shun, Shun can use this weakness to escape.
Mu never mentions that he will use that portal and he entered only using his mental powers (teleportation). The Saints can enter that place without any problem, because it is not ruled by Hades and it is not part of the Underworld.

The humans only die when they fall into the hole in the Yomotsu, which leads to the Underworld. That is why they can even return to the world of the living without awakening the Eighth Sense.
you literally just ignored a mountain of proof for your own headcanon. Additionally, i said that Taratrus is part of the World of the Dead system. not part of Hades. If i said that then I am sorry.
The Tartarus is part of the world of the dead of Hades in the main canon, but this is not the case in Episode.G. A different concept in both universes and an incompatible idea between the universes of this franchise.

In the main universe the Tartarus is the prison of Asclepius, the only prisoner in that place and who is escaping thanks to the distortion in space and time by Athena's time travel.
1.) The Underworld exist above the living worlds as i have shown but this point is irrelvant anymore due to other evidence

2.) except it was called a literal space-time universe. But apparently it has no universe or no gods but Eris. So debunks your argument of every universe has its own underworld. This proves that there are worlds without an underworld.

3.) You have to make a separate CRT for that. this is irrelvant to this CRT and derailing.

4.) Weather or not the Underworld exist above the living worlds is also irrelevant to my proposal. It does not take away the fact that The Underwrold Hades created takes in souls from the entire multiverse.

Edit: A lot of ad-nauseum for ad-Infinium happening here.
1) It is only one of the errors in this topic.
2) It is a world created by Eris, on the contrary to the rest of the multiverse that we do not know who created it and it is only mentioned that it was born with the big bang. The Underworld or world of the dead is a creation of Hades, not a creation of Eris or any other god.
3) There is no need, when the wiki rules do not support composite versions of characters, so each universe is different.
4) Not so, the Underworld only takes souls from its universe, and each universe has its own version of Hades and its own Underworld.

Good thing G is stated by many sources to be written by Kurumada

Not that this even matters, your personal opinion on how you think Saint Seiya's canonicity and what you personally value as "higher canon" is so completely and utterly irrelevant to this CRT. It is currently accepted all works by Okada is canon along with Kurumada's work - there is no "higher" or "lower" canon when it comes to the main manga works.
Kurumada never wrote that manga, even in an interview he mentions that he doesn't have much participation in Episode G, that's why he even contradicts it completely in Zero, where we saw the true version of the scene where Aiolos escapes from the Sanctuary to save Athena. The manga in which Kurumada probably participated the most was Saintia Sho, and even this did not prevent Kuori from having to change his original idea of the story at Kurumada's whim when he introduces the Lemur as Saga's second personality in his manga.
 
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Lancelot. Please refrain from using terms such as "main canon" as your personal opinions on what is and is not considered canon for this franchise are not the current accepted positions of the wiki for this franchise. Okada's and Kori's work are considered on equal footing with Kurumada's.
 
Maybe the law of Hades in Yomostsu Hirasaka weaker than in the Underworld ? In Yomostsu Hirasaka maybe it just affect the dead soul

 
Lancelot. Please refrain from using terms such as "main canon" as your personal opinions on what is and is not considered canon for this franchise are not the current accepted positions of the wiki for this franchise. Okada's and Kori's work are considered on equal footing with Kurumada's.
I prefer the word main universe to describe the work of Kurumada and Saintia Sho, because all the series (at least the manga published by Akita Shoten) are part of the same multiverse, but this does not indicate that all the universes follow the same rules, as each universe has different rules and concepts.
Maybe the law of Hades in Yomostsu Hirasaka weaker than in the Underworld ? In Yomostsu Hirasaka maybe it just affect the dead soul
In reality there is no law in the Yomotsu Hirasaka, because Hades has no power over that world.
 
But every dead soul in here must head to the entrance of the realm of dead like they was controlled by something, except people are blessed by god.
It is a world between life and death, and in that place are the souls of people who are about to die, so they walk to their death. Suikyo's soul, after he was mortally wounded in his fight with Dohko, his soul ended up in this place before falling to the Underworld.
 
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It is the future of that world as explained in the manga itself and that is why Athena traveled in time to change the future.

The distortion in space and time also sent Athena and Shijima to the future (after falling into the labyrinth of the gods, the dimensional technique in the Pope's Temple), where they saw Seiya.
SPOILER
The distortion in space and time that threatens to destroy the universe is affecting the dimensional techniques of the characters.

The distortion in space and time is affecting the time-traveling Saints, and it is sending them to different places in space and time. Shun was sent to the Yomotsu Hirasaka of the future where he saw Seiya walking around.


Again this argument makes 0 sense.


Another Dimension works on Shun and Tenma as i already have shown. At that time the distortion never happened. After that scene the very next chapter they went to the cancer temple in which they See Seiya. 40+ Chapters later, the 13th Gold Saint Ody appears; This is when the distortions begin. Another dimension fails on Ody because of the distortion.

I have already shown these scans.

No, Deathmask was affected like all Saints when he fell to the Underworld, and died when entering that place like all humans. He has no special protection and his power only allows him to enter the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a world between the world of the living and the dead.

Even Deathmask describes it as the boderland between the realms of the livig and dead.

Even the Taizen says he is allowed to enter Yomotsu Hirsaka while keeping his "Human Conditions"

Usa golpes diretos sobre a mente do oponente, É um Cavaleiro com poderes especiais que enviando-o para a entrada do Mundo dos Mortos. consegue ir e vir entre o Mundo dos Vivos e dos Mortos mantendo sua condição humana.

Uses direct blows on the opponent's mind, It is a Knight with special powers that sends him to the entrance of the Underworld. he manages to come and go between the World of the Living and the Dead while maintaining his human condition.


Shun only mentions the Cancer Saint's ability to travel to the Yomotsu Hirasaka, a place where there is an entrance to the Underworld (the hole leading to the Underworld).

The Yomotsu Hirasaka is not the Underworld and it is not part of this world either, because it is a completely different world.

Ad nauseum and ad Infinium but anyways

Deathmask goes into Yomotsu Hirasaka to help rescue Shura and Saga.

HOWEVER

Shun, Seiya, Hyoga, and Shiryu (who are Gold Saints at this time) called this place "The Underworld" when talking about who will go rescue Shura.

Furthermore; Deathmask also called Yomotsu Hirasaka "The underworld" whilest still at the same time still calling it Yomotsu Hirasaka by description being the boundary between life and death.

Aiolos also calls the Border/Boundry the wall that Shura, Deathmask, and Saga wer trying to pierce as "The Underworld' as well.

Here we have 2 Cancer Saints calling Yomotsu Hirasaka the Underworld.

Aiolos says here that they are trapped in the Underworld despite being in Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Shura also says that he is falling into the Underworld despite it being only Yomotsu Hirasaka.

The only reason why Shura is not dominated by Hades will is because Saga is serving as a link between the Living world and the Dead.

Aiolos lightening flame is stated to "Cover the whole Underworld" despite their location being only in Yomotsu Hirasaka

its even called "The Shadow of the Underworld."

Despite all that; They are still far away from the Archaeon river.

As I already explained and posted scans in different post above this one

Hades power extends to Yomotsu Hirasaka

As we do get redundant statements of it being apart of "The Underworld."

Here is a scan from the Taizen that also reinforces what I am saying. (see the quote box below here)


"Já foi citado que mesmo um Cavaleiro de Atena não possui vida eterna como ser huma- no, mas essa regra não se aplica ao exército de Espectros de Hades. Como governador de todo o Mundo dos Mortos, Hades é capaz de conceder un corpo físico. Para as almas mortas. O conceito de "morte" não existe entre os soldados de Hades, o que os torna destemidos em luta e guerreiros de força descomunal. físico para as almas mor O Mundo dos Mortos dominado por Hades é um mundo inatingivel pelo poder dos ou- tros deuses, inclusive Atena. Somente aqueles seres reconhecidos por Hades podem possuir poderes nesse mundo, ou seja, somente os Espectros. Isso impediu desde tempos remotos que os domínios de Hades fossem invadidos pxor outros exércitos (contudo, dessa vez o Cavaleiro de Ouro da Casa de Virgem conseguiu descobrir meios de penetrar no Mundo dos Mortos, através do Arayashiki) e Atena nunca conseguiu cortar o mal de Hades pela raiz.

It has already been mentioned that even a Knight of Athena does not have eternal life as a human being, but this rule does not apply to the Specters of Hades army. As governor of the entire Underworld, Hades is able to bestow a physical body. For dead souls. The concept of "death" does not exist among soldiers of Hades, which makes them fearless in fight and warriors of extraordinary strength. physical for dead souls The Hades-dominated World of the Dead is a world unattainable by the power of other gods, including Athena. Only those beings recognized by Hades can possess powers in this world, that is, only Specters. This prevented from ancient times the domains of Hades from being invaded by other armies (however, this time the Golden Knight of the House of Virgo managed to find ways to penetrate the Underworld, through the Arayashiki) and Athena never managed to stop the evil of Hades in the bud."


So, on top of the scans I already posted we have this additional scan along with them.

Mu never mentions that he will use that portal and he entered only using his mental powers (teleportation). The Saints can enter that place without any problem, because it is not ruled by Hades and it is not part of the Underworld.

The humans only die when they fall into the hole in the Yomotsu, which leads to the Underworld. That is why they can even return to the world of the living without awakening the Eighth Sense.

Those who enter the gateway a cancer saint opens are not affected by it as i already posted the scan. That is exactly what Mu did.

Saga had to serve as a link between worlds so that Shura isn't affected by Hades power (already posted the scan above)

The Tartarus is part of the world of the dead of Hades in the main canon, but this is not the case in Episode.G. A different concept in both universes and an incompatible idea between the universes of this franchise.

In the main universe the Tartarus is the prison of Asclepius, the only prisoner in that place and who is escaping thanks to the distortion in space and time by Athena's time travel.

Could please provide proof that hades created tartarus? his power does extend to Tartarus as shown in Episode G and Assassins, but he did not create it. In fact, the new official website supervised by Kurumada doesn't even say he created it.

1) It is only one of the errors in this topic.
2) It is a world created by Eris, on the contrary to the rest of the multiverse that we do not know who created it and it is only mentioned that it was born with the big bang. The Underworld or world of the dead is a creation of Hades, not a creation of Eris or any other god.
3) There is no need, when the wiki rules do not support composite versions of characters, so each universe is different.
4) Not so, the Underworld only takes souls from its universe, and each universe has its own version of Hades and its own Underworld.

1.) Going through the Taizen i found more evidence that the Underworld exsit above the living worlds. but nonetheless this point is irrelevant. (see the quote box below here)

"Sekishiki" é a denominação da constelação de câncer na China. Significa "buraco por onde as almas da terra sobem para o além".

"Sekishiki" is the name of the constellation of cancer in China. It means "hole through which the souls of the earth ascend to the beyond". [Scan is here]

2.) So your addmitting that there is only 1 Underworld for the whole multiverse, or at the very least you are addmitting there is less underworlds than the number of univereses.

3.) Sorry but that requires for you to make a separate and different CRT as it would derail this one and im going to have to disagree with you with separating the canons.

4.) You contradicted yourself as i pointed out in point 2.)



At this point as this keeps getting into a bigger and bigger circle with neither side yielding its becoming ad-nauseum and ad-Infinium. I think a summary is needed for others to read when they decide to review this

so far 3 staff members agree with the proposal.
 
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neutral but inclined to support the arguments of. lancelot I don't think we should meet the staff when they admit they don't know much verse
 
neutral but inclined to support the arguments of. lancelot I don't think we should meet the staff when they admit they don't know much verse
I think as long as the arguments of either sides are easy to understand, it shouldn’t matter how much of the verse people know. Imo, if either side can logically provide relevant evidence then that’s all of the verse you need to know atm.
 

Summary of the Counter arguments to what is being proposed (Against the OP)​


1.) Each universe has its own Underworld

2.) Yomotsu Hirasaka is not part of the Underworld

3.) The Underworld is not a Higher plane/Realm/Dimension

4.) Hypermyth is not important to the franchise

5.) The "Black Core" is not part of the Underworld but is its own power

6.) 90% of your information comes from Non-canon sources

7.) The distortion Time and Space in the Manga Series "Next Dimension" is the reason why Shun can see Seiya





Summary of The Counters to the Counter Arguments (in support of the OP)​


1.) The team that is opposed to the upgrade contradicted themselves a couple times in their counter arguments here. When I asked them about the minor Goddess Dyssomnia seeing the birth of a new world if it had an Underworld of its own or whole new Gods. They said "No" but they still kept saying "each Universe has its own Underworld." These two points contradict each other. If each Universe has its own underworld then Dyssomnia should have seen the creation of whole new Gods, and even an Underworld. However, There was no mention of a recreation of herself, or the primary God she serves (Eris) or the God Eris is fond of (Ares) or any Underworld. There was also no mention of another Athena being born there which would have been troublesome for Dyssomnia and Eris. Additionally, This "world' was directly stated to be a whole new and a full blown Space-Time Continuum.

In addition to this, the Manga Series of Next Dimension also debunks this claim of "An Underworld for every Universe." As we are told multiple times that Shun is in another Space-Time Universe separate and different from the Universe Seiya (who is unconscious and in wheel chair) is in. If each Universe has its own Underworld then Shun should have never been able to see Seiya in the Underworld. This requires multiple chapter worth of pictures so I'll just give out the chapter numbers.
Chapter 33 to 37 of Saint Seiya: Next Dimension
Chapters 18 to 20 of Saint Seiya: Next Dimension

2.)
As I have explained. it is indeed part of the Underworld in which Hades controls. I shall post those scans in a Quote Box below this reply.

Deathmask goes into Yomotsu Hirasaka to help rescue Shura and Saga.

Shun, Seiya, Hyoga, and Shiryu (who are Gold Saints at this time) called this place "The Underworld" when talking about who will go rescue Shura.

Furthermore; Deathmask also called Yomotsu Hirasaka "The underworld" whilest still at the same time still calling it Yomotsu Hirasaka by description being the boundary between life and death.

Aiolos also calls the Border/Boundry the wall that Shura, Deathmask, and Saga wer trying to pierce as "The Underworld' as well.

Here we have 2 Cancer Saints calling Yomotsu Hirasaka the Underworld.

Aiolos says here that they are trapped in the Underworld despite being in Yomotsu Hirasaka.

Shura also says that he is falling into the Underworld despite it being only Yomotsu Hirasaka.

The only reason why Shura is not dominated by Hades will is because Saga is serving as a link between the Living world and the Dead.

Aiolos lightening flame is stated to "Cover the whole Underworld" despite their location being only in Yomotsu Hirasaka

its even called "The Shadow of the Underworld."

Despite all that; They are still far away from the Archaeon river.

"Já foi citado que mesmo um Cavaleiro de Atena não possui vida eterna como ser huma- no, mas essa regra não se aplica ao exército de Espectros de Hades. Como governador de todo o Mundo dos Mortos, Hades é capaz de conceder un corpo físico. Para as almas mortas. O conceito de "morte" não existe entre os soldados de Hades, o que os torna destemidos em luta e guerreiros de força descomunal. físico para as almas mor O Mundo dos Mortos dominado por Hades é um mundo inatingivel pelo poder dos ou- tros deuses, inclusive Atena. Somente aqueles seres reconhecidos por Hades podem possuir poderes nesse mundo, ou seja, somente os Espectros. Isso impediu desde tempos remotos que os domínios de Hades fossem invadidos pxor outros exércitos (contudo, dessa vez o Cavaleiro de Ouro da Casa de Virgem conseguiu descobrir meios de penetrar no Mundo dos Mortos, através do Arayashiki) e Atena nunca conseguiu cortar o mal de Hades pela raiz.

It has already been mentioned that even a Knight of Athena does not have eternal life as a human being, but this rule does not apply to the Specters of Hades army. As governor of the entire Underworld, Hades is able to bestow a physical body. For dead souls. The concept of "death" does not exist among soldiers of Hades, which makes them fearless in fight and warriors of extraordinary strength. physical for dead souls The Hades-dominated World of the Dead is a world unattainable by the power of other gods, including Athena. Only those beings recognized by Hades can possess powers in this world, that is, only Specters. This prevented from ancient times the domains of Hades from being invaded by other armies (however, this time the Golden Knight of the House of Virgo managed to find ways to penetrate the Underworld, through the Arayashiki) and Athena never managed to stop the evil of Hades in the bud."

[Scan is here]

Hades power is stated to be out of Control in Yomotsu Hirasaka
Yomostu Hirasaka is stated to be Under Hades Jurisdiction
where entering Yomotsu Hirasaka subjects you to Hades Laws

3.) Weather it is, or is not, is not relevant to this topic. It was just some additional and possibly even interesting information. It does not take away anything I proposed. At this point discussing this would be derailing as I did say I won't want this to turn into an attack potency discussion.

4.) I will give them this one. Hypermyth is actually stated to be conjecture reached by the Graad Foundation in verse. However, again this takes away nothing, but also at the same time it is supported by in manga feats. Discussing this further would be derailing and irrelevant as it only is 1 scan and its related to the "higher plane of existence" topic.

5.) I will post the scan again below. It is DIRECTLY stated to be the Underworld itself. I have no idea how someone can miscontexualize, misunderstand, decontextualize, misinterpret, and just in general misread this scan. This is the most balatant and direct scan you can possibly get. I do not know how much futher you can get with this. I shall toss the scan in a quote box below.


6.) This requires a different and separate CRT as its already accepted on the wiki that everything is canon and cross scalable. Discussing what is, and is not, canon would be derailing.

7.) This is simply wrong. The distortion affects happen 40 chapters AFTER Shun saw Seiya in the Underworld. For example, Gemini Cain/Abel used Another Dimension on Shun and Tenma. The use of it worked WITH-OUT fail. The very next manga chapter we saw Seiya in the Underworld HOWEVER 40+ chapters later, when Ody finally appeared in front of the Gemini Saint. It failed because Time and Space was distorted. (See the Images in the Quote Box below)







The Proposal in the OP is to upgrade the Mind and Soul hax (along with resistance to such hax) of the Gods and 8th Sense users to....


Baseline 2-A + Countless + Billions







Agrees: Hasty12345; catzlaflame; Tarang123; Teezar; Rabbit2002; StekFence; RIZEXX; Silvervigilant

Disagrees: Lancelot_de_Cancer; Saiyan40009

Staff Agrees: KingTempest; Elizhaa; DarkDragonMedeus

Staff Disagrees: 0
 
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neutral but inclined to support the arguments of. lancelot I don't think we should meet the staff when they admit they don't know much verse
This wiki actually encourages staff to step outside their comfort zone into verses they don't know anything about to give their best input based what is presented and debated over. If staff stuck to only what they were knowledgeable in. The wiki as it is today wouldn't exist. It would limited to only a handful of the most popular verses.
 
I still agree with Unshakable here. Lancelot’s arguments have been thoroughly refuted - most of his arguments stem from his personal views of the canon which aren’t relevant to the discussion.
 
I'm leaning towards agree. It's also possible that DarkWing takes place in a different part of the Multiverse, which is why it had it's underworld destroyed but our Underworld is fine.
 
I'm leaning towards agree. It's also possible that DarkWing takes place in a different part of the Multiverse, which is why it had it's underworld destroyed but our Underworld is fine.
well this idea leads to that fact the amount of Underworlds is < the amount of universes/timelines, but there appears to be a finite amount of Underworlds, despite having infinite timelines outright stated in Omega and alluded to in Sho. I speculate that timelines and universes are different ideas in Saint Seiya (both of which contribute to the cosmology) and that the most consistent interpretation IMO is that each Universe has an UW, but the timelines have no connection to the creation of Underworlds and pantheons of gods - but this is just my own head canon at the moment. So under my speculation, DarkWing is its own universe that Claasic's UW CANNOT connect to, but the GA UW can connect to timelines that diverge from one another but have "the same universe" if that makes sense.

There's a lot of subtleties in the Saint Seiya cosmology (which will probably be clarified in a more in-depth analysis in a cosmology blog) but the main take away from this is that the Underworld we know of from classic and G connect to infinite timelines via Aiolos, Zeus and Athena's statements about Aiolos' plans etc etc (and ofc the evidence from ND).

And there also seems to be some confusion about whether or not the UW is a "higher plane", the argument in the OP is not proposing the UW is a transcendental plane in some sort of low 1-C manor, but literally a location that sits geometrically above (or below doesn't really matter) some set of timelines or universes. It's not really an important point, I just find it odd there was debate about it despite no ap claims of any kind were presented (which is usually the contention with those kinds of statements).
 
Again this argument makes 0 sense.

Another Dimension works on Shun and Tenma as i already have shown. At that time the distortion never happened. After that scene the very next chapter they went to the cancer temple in which they See Seiya. 40+ Chapters later, the 13th Gold Saint Ody appears; This is when the distortions begin. Another dimension fails on Ody because of the distortion.

I have already shown these scans.
The distortions in space and time started since they arrived in the past.
d0gb9rp.png

wJw0Ngc.png

In the most recent chapters, we can see that the distortions began even before Athena's arrival in the past, that is why Asclepius was able to interfere in the world of the living. And it affected the arrival of the Athena of that time, that is why Sasha fell in another part of the world and the Pope, Odysseus and Suikyo believed that the Athena of their time had not yet been born in this world because of the interference of the Athena of the future.
nnd07.jpg

nnd08.jpg

---------------------------------------------
nnd13.jpg

nnd14.jpg

As I showed, when the time-traveling Saints and Athena are trapped by a dimensional technique, the distortion in space and time can send them into the future.

Even on the YouTube channel of La Siguiente Dimensión, the channel of the group that translates this manga into Spanish, explain this detail in one of their videos.

It is clearly described as a world between the worlds of the living and the dead.
Uses direct blows on the opponent's mind, It is a Knight with special powers that sends him to the entrance of the Underworld. he manages to come and go between the World of the Living and the Dead while maintaining his human condition.
Even Deathmask describes this in the manga
kz7eo4W.jpeg


Deathmask clearly says that only when you fall into the hole of the Yomotsu do you enter the world of the dead (Underworld), therefore, the Yomotsu Hirasaka is not part of the world of the dead and it is not part of the world of the living either, because it is an intermediate world between those two worlds.

The Cancer Saint can only enter the Yomotsu Hirasaka, if he enters the Underworld he dies like all humans by being trapped in the rules of that place.

You can even see how Deathmask died when he fell through the hole in the Yomotsu Hirsaka and entered the Underworld.
5k7jdop.jpg

Rotbtkv.jpg

4awrOps.jpg

RgA3UUx.jpg

BZZyIq6.jpg
Episode.G has a million errors with the rest of the franchise, that's why it's impossible to mix the concepts of the different universes of this franchise. It is a manga written by Okada, not Masami Kurumada, who writes the main manga of the franchise.

Kurumada describes in his manga that the Yomotsu Hirasaka is not part of the Underworld, and is only a world between life and death.
Here is a scan from the Taizen that also reinforces what I am saying. (see the quote box below here)
This is the translation of Taizen directly from Japanese.
img244.jpg.a82062906d1ace47a50325c85b6d229d.jpg

たとえ聖闘士といえども、その命は永遠ではないことは既に前の項で述べているが、実王の軍団に関しては、その常識は当てはまらない。死者の国である冥界を治めるハーデスは、己の国の住人たちに肉体を与えることができるからだ。ハーデスの軍団に関しては、死という概念は存在せず、戦いにおいては相討ちとなることも辞さない者が多い。それゆえにその軍団は、他に類を見ない強力な力を獲得するに至っている。

ハーデスの支配する冥界は、アテナをはじめ、他の神々の力が及ばない世界であり、唯一、冥王からその存在が許された者、つまり冥闘士しか活動することが許されない。そのために他の勢力から攻め込まれることがなく、神話の時代から他の勢力の侵入を阻んできた鉄壁の守りを誇っていたのだ(だが、今度の聖戦では黄金聖闘士・乙女座のシャカは、阿頼耶識を発現させることで冥界に侵攻する手段を見出す)。このため、幾度となく戦いを繰り広げながらもアテナは、その冥界の戦力を根絶やしにすることができなかったのだ。

Como mencionado anteriormente, a vida não é eterna, mesmo para um Saint, mas em relação ao exército de Hades essa regra não se aplica. Hades governa o Submundo, a terra dos mortos, e por isso pode conceder um corpo para os habitantes da sua região. Para o exército de Hades o conceito de morte não existe e por isso são tão destemidos nas batalhas.

O Submundo governado por Hades é um mundo inatingível pelo poder dos outros deuses, inclusive Athena. Somente aqueles que foram autorizados pelo Imperador das Trevas podem agir livremente, ou seja, apenas como Specters. Portanto, sem ser atacado por outras forças, orgulhavam-se da proteção intransponível que impedia a invasão de outras forças desde a Era Mitológica (no entanto, nesta Guerra Santa, o Cavaleiro de Ouro Shaka de Virgo encontrou uma maneira de invadir o Submundo manifestando o alaya-vijnana).

It is curious that in the Taizen it is described that Athena has no power over the Underworld of Hades, because it is a world unreachable even by the power of the gods.

Also, this part of Taizen never mentions anything about Yomotsu Hirasaka.
Could please provide proof that hades created tartarus? his power does extend to Tartarus as shown in Episode G and Assassins, but he did not create it. In fact, the new official website supervised by Kurumada doesn't even say he created it.
Tartarus is described as a part of the world of the dead in Next Dimension, the world created by Hades, therefore he is the creator of that world. And Asclepius is the only one who is trapped in that place/prison (which has a different design than the one shown in Epsiode.G for this place), therefore the Titans are not in this place as in Episode.G.

A page that hasn't been updated in a long time and Kurumada himself mentions that he doesn't participate much in that manga.

In addition, Kurumada even contradicts that manga when he published Zero, where the author shows how Aiolos' real escape to save Athena went, an event very different from what Okada showed in Episode.G.

This is Okada's version.


This is Masami Kurumada's version for the main universe.

This shows that Kurumada does not take into account the original ideas of that manga for his work.
1.) Going through the Taizen i found more evidence that the Underworld exsit above the living worlds. but nonetheless this point is irrelevant. (see the quote box below here)
In the Taizen they never described that.

It only describes that souls travel beyond. Something that happens that way in all the series where the concept of the world of the dead is mentioned.
2.) So your addmitting that there is only 1 Underworld for the whole multiverse, or at the very least you are addmitting there is less underworlds than the number of univereses.

3.) Sorry but that requires for you to make a separate and different CRT as it would derail this one and im going to have to disagree with you with separating the canons.

4.) You contradicted yourself as i pointed out in point 2.)

At this point as this keeps getting into a bigger and bigger circle with neither side yielding its becoming ad-nauseum and ad-Infinium. I think a summary is needed for others to read when they decide to review this

so far 3 staff members agree with the proposal.
2) An idea that doesn't make sense for the franchise, where even the Underworld is destroyed in Kurumada's main universe and it is also destroyed in Dark Wing's universe. And every universe in the franchise has its own version of Hades and its own Underworld.

In Kurumada's manga (main universe) the Underworld (world of the dead) was completely destroyed with the death of Hades forever.
N3eNADs.jpg

janAXVo.jpg


In the Dark Wing universe the Underworld was completely destroyed by the attack of an unknown enemy (in the story it is indicated that Athena was responsible).
t6teDAw.jpg

uAuCXZE.jpg

Even in Assassin's, which you never tire of quoting, we can see that each version of planet Earth has its own version of Athena, and each world has its own Underworld and its own version of Hades.

The idea of an Underworld for the entire multiverse is completely ridiculous, even Athena only protects the Earth of his universe, not the Earths of other universes.

3) In the Wiki rules it is described that composite versions of the characters are not accepted.

4) I never contradicted myself, just explained that each universe has its own version of Hades and its own Underworld, something that can be seen in the franchise.
 
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Episode.G has a million errors with the rest of the franchise, so it is incompatible to mix the concepts of the different universes of this franchise. It is a manga written by Okada, not Masami Kurumada who writes the main manga of the franchise.
Your distasteful hate against Okada aside....

The underworld was crumbling and the boarder between life and death was fading during GA.... You know, because in classic Hades' body and soul were destroyed..... and the Underworld was collapsing..... for the sake of the crumbling cosmology at the time of the story ,both locations were used virtually interchangeably.
 
I'll be at work for the majority of the day.

Wil have to come back to this thread later.

But from quick glances I just see the same thing being debated and we're going in a full circle. Considering that the replies slowed down probably almost tome to conclude this.
 
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