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Hades and the underworld
The most controversial subject when talking about Saint Seiya, without a doubt, is the underworld, and maybe it's because of the poor translations of the work or the lack of interpretation of how this idea is elaborated in the work.
Hades created the space-time of the underworld?
The answer is quite simple and straightforward, Hades didn't create it, he just started to reign there since the age of myths. This is something explained since the first encyclopedia (Cosmo Special - Hypermyth) which was sold on July 27, 1988 and released on August 10, 1988. About 10 years later, the final version of the encyclopedia, also known as by its romaji "Taizen", it was released in Japan on August 22, 2001, and finally, we also have the final version of the hypermyth, released on November 21, 2001 in Monthly Comic Tokumori "Saint Seiya Shôshû-hen". There are many counter-arguments to masking these sources of information, such as saying that the two encyclopedias are secondary canons because they are guides, not manga. Although these arguments are irrelevant, as these materials were written by Kurumada, and were even present in the first version of the manga, but it evolved into such abundant information that he had to write in separate magazines. With all that said, let's start with the explanations:
The first statement about Hades and the Underworld occurs in Vol. 23, Chapter 84, and the following is said:
遥 か 神話 の 時代 時代 よ り ハ ー デ ス 様 が 支配 な さ れ て き た こ の 実 界 で は 人間 な ど ウ ジ 虫 に 等 し い の だ! (http://imgur.com/a/CR8tkyN)⇨Here in the underworld, where Hades-sama has established a reign since the age of myths, humans are as weak as worms!
な さ れ て き た is actually an inflection of な す, with these forms: te-ita form. Indicates an action in progress. Thus, the translation has some statements and an etymology:
1-Hades-sama became the ruler since the age of myth
2-Hades-sama has established influence since the age of myths
3-Hades-sama has built a government since the age of myths
4-Hades-sama has achieved control since the age of myth.
In every sentence, we'll just bump into the concept of him dominating the underworld lands and establishing his reign there. Consequently, Hades saying that he sustained the underworld he created says only about the prisons that were built for souls to be punished under his rule.
Going to Hypermyth and Taizen we find the same foundation. Hypermyth (1988):
神神の時代
地球上に多くの人間たちが生まれるようになると,その体内に"神神の意志"を目覚めさせた者が現れるようになる.小宇宙の発現が第七感(セプンセンシズ)によるものとするならは,神神の意志はそれらをはるガにしのぐ超感覚であるといえる.そして,ますはじめに神神の意志を発現させることのできる3人の者が現れる.彼らはゼっス,ハーデス,ポセイドンと名集り,神として人びとにあがめられ,その勢力を広げていつた.やがて,ゼウスは天空と大地,ポセイドンは海,ハーデスは冥界を右めるようになる.
age of the gods
humanity as they became numerous, there emerged those who awakened the divine will. If the manifestation of the microcosm is due to the Seventh Sense, it can be said that the Divine Will is the supersense that goes far beyond the others. And, in the first place, three appeared who manifested the Divine Will. They were called Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon, and they were worshiped by mortals as gods, and their powers expanded. Eventually, Zeus rightfully inherited the heavens and earth, Poseidon the oceans, and Hades the underworld.
Parts of hypermyth are also within taizen. Taizen (2001), page 154.
ゼ ウ ス た ち オ リ ン ポ ス 神族 と ク ロ ノ ス 兄弟 の テ ィ タ ン 神族 の 「神 々 の 戦 い」 は 壮 絶 を 極 め, 両 者 は 10 年 間 も 争 い つ づ け た が 一 つ い に ゼ ウ ス だ ち が 勝利 し た と い う. そ し て 共 に 戦 っ た 2 人 の 兄 一一ポ セ イ ド ン ン は 海 を 、 ハ ハ ー デ ス は 冥界 を 支配 し 、 ゼ ウ ス 自身 は 主 神 の 座 に 就 き き 、 天空 を 支配 す る 事 に な ウ ス 自身 は 主 神 の 座 に 就 き 、 天空 を 支配 す る 事 に な っ た。
The terrible "Holy War" between Zeus and the Gods of Olympus against the Titans, brothers of Kronos, lasted more than 10 years and ended with the triumph of Zeus. Of the two older brothers who fought alongside Zeus, Poseidon was given the seas to rule, and Hades the underworld. Zeus assumed the position of King of the Gods and ruled the skies.
Tokumori: Houou Seiza Tenshô-hen
"The History of the Great Holy Wars"
From here, there is an analysis made by the Graad foundation, among the spectacular "Hypermito", which can search are ongoing so far, we would like to present what should be noticed.
"The History of the Great Holy Wars"
From here is the analysis made by the Graad Foundation, among the spectacular “Hypermyth”, whose research is ongoing until now, we would like to present what should be highlighted.
And lastly, and without any benefit of the doubt because the context is loud and clear, let's get to the big Hades line at the end of the manga. Hades states;
The underworld I created will disappear along with me... Hell, Elysium, all of it...
If the existence of the underworld space-time depended on Hades, surely anything once erased should no longer exist, the underworld plane should also have collapsed, but is that really what happens? The answer is clear, no. Leaving for the Next Dimension, after the Battle with Lord Hades, Seiya is left in a wheelchair because of the curse of the Sword of Hades that was placed in his chest in the battle against the God. Athena and Shun go to the previous Holy War which took place in the 18th century to destroy this cursed sword within three days in the future (). Keeping that in mind, all events that happen to Seiya in the future happen within 1-3 days (or even less depending on the CR's completion), anyway, it's a relatively short period of time since they left the Elysium field. . In this way, we can see that although Hades was recently erased, as the souls of future saints went to help Athena and Shijima as soon as she was taken out of the Labyrinth that would lead her to Seiya in the future (http://imgur.com/a/ aVxNiWN)
underworld size
First of all, the size of the underworld is not infinite. Most of the quotes that say this realm is infinite in size, in the original talk about the eternity of the land realm that in comparison with the human world will one day cease to exist, about the philosophy that hell, Elysium (paradise), will be eternally there for souls.
Charon claiming the underworld hell is infinite
そ う だ こ こ こ か ら 冥界 は 八 八 つ の 獄 三 つ の の 谷 十 の 壕 ... そ し て 四 四 つ の 圏 と い う と と て つ も な く く 暗 く 果 て し な い い 地獄 十 の 壕 し て 四 四 つ の 圏 と い う と と つ つ も な く く 暗 く 果 て し な い い 地獄 地獄 の
http://imgur.com/a/DGl5S0O
圏 壕jigoku no sekai ga "
This phrase depending on Kanji can mean infinite space, for example
てしな果い"宇宙" ( https://tangorin.com/kanji/宙 )⇨ Hateshinai uchuu ⇨infinite space / universe
However, that's not the meaning here, as Acheron is talking about the torment of hell, and how hell is endless, divided into eight prisons to judge the souls of the dead, so the feeling of "infinity" is a while. without end, or as the kanji itself also means "evarlasting" and "暗 く"to despair, then we have:
That's right. From here, you are in the realm of Hell, which is extremely desperate and eternal, divided into eight prisons, three valleys, ten malebolges, and four spheres.
Malebolges are the "evil ditches" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge)
Going to the Elysium entry phrase contextually the "infinite" doesn't refer to size but rather the sense of something that will last forever as that's what Thanatos and Hypnos and the other minions of hades keep bragging about the nature of life after death, as above.
1-言 っ た は ず ず だ こ こ は 神話 の 時代 よ り 血 で 汚 さ れ た こ と の な い 実 王 の 地 だ と
( http://imgur.com/a/t7FFtoe )⇨I have already said, this place is the territory of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades), and it has never been unsullied by blood since the age of myth.
2-"あそこはハーデス様の真の肉体が神話の時代より眠っておられる場所だ" e "ただし普通の眠りではないこのヒュプノスが与えた永遠の眠りだ⇨ "This is where the true body of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades) has been resting since the age of mythology." and "This is no ordinary sleep. I have put her into an eternal sleep"
3-There is also Mainstay's quote from Poseidon attached in the "Arc of Poseidon" section, where she elaborates further on the issue of Gods seeking to raise eternal realms, because the matter of the universe has a life limit.
In addition to the relationships about the passage of time, and because they are eternal, we can also remember that at the beginning of the Next Dimension the fields of Elysium were moved to the earth and could fit there.
Seiya against Hades in the Elysium field ( http://imgur.com/a/Mu9pGYA ), Alone, Hades' host body from 240 years ago, being remembered by Hades himself from when Tenma was his friend, and himself in the Elysiums ( http://imgur.com/a/DUJUhEk ). Dohko and Shion getting information that Hades was on Elysium (http://imgur.com/a/ANqVSee), and Dohko was going to kill him now (http://imgur.com/a/My8oVye). Eventually, we are shown that not only the fields of Elysium were teleported to earth, but also Hades' shrine with his sword (http://imgur.com/a/238jilW), and also his castle (http://imgur .com/a/zQEp1uS ).
To be perfectly specific, the Elysium fields are not infinite in size.
hyperdimension
I think this should be in the speed features section. Anyway, the classical universe ( http://imgur.com/l0Iwiwf ) is countless light years ( http://imgur.com/l0Iwiwf ), but this is not part of the hyperdimension, but of real space. The "hyperdimension" is a wormhole connecting the Wailing Wall to Elysium and other dimensions. And it's not the vague argument that the Bronze Boy traveled to the light in the hyperdimension ( http://imgur.com/hdlYIec ), which led to the fields of Elysium. The "hyperdimension" or "extra dimension" is a wormhole because it is visually drawn as one, represented as one, and functions as such.
First, examples of diagrams of a wormhole: [1] http://imgur.com/MAs5I4M , [2] http://imgur.com/e7nfJDH, [3] https://cdn.mos.cms. futurecdn.net/n6LzftRUbAhUMCSWmi2Sji.jpg
1-visually has the grids of a wormhole (http://imgur.com/udlKKK8)
2-There is visible spatial dilation and contrast between superspace and wall space (http://imgur.com/h66HyaM)
3-There is a planet smaller than the wall showing that space dilated (http://imgur.com/7pawWIL)
If that's not enough to convince you, let's go into the context of this "realm". After Hades and Athena flew across the wall to the fields of Elysium, the solar system returned to its normal orbit, and there was no dimensional space of any kind in the view of physical space. Dohko explains that the very act of going through the wall takes him to another dimension http://imgur.com/a/XuREDw1
たとえぶち披いた穴を通ってエリシオンへ行こうとしても普通の人問でははじき返されるか異空間へ呑み込まれるのが落ちじゃ ( http://imgur.com/Zy22d3P )⇨"Even if they opened a hole to get to Elysium, ordinary humans would just be sucked in or swallowed up into another dimension until they died"
This is enough to invalidate the speed formulas about traveling here, however, to dispel the myth of the Hyperdimension talent, we also have the following information:
1-エリシオン...ハーデスの肉体が眠ってる至上の楽園嘆きの壁の向こうにある異次元世界.. ( http://imgur.com/a/fLXUZlg )⇨Elysium fields: Paradise where Hades' body was kept intact. It is a world located in another dimension, behind the Wailing Wall.
2-Seiya e Shun:ち ... 超次 元? かも時空しが捻じれ現象を起こしている
( http://imgur.com/a/J3le1zJ ) ⇨ Seiya: The road to...an extra dimension? Shun: And it's causing a space-time warp
Therefore, the bronzeboys just crossed the interdimensional portal also known as the "hyperdimension", which leads to countless other planes of existence like Elysium, which is countless lights away from the Wailing Wall in real space, and at the end of the universe.
The most controversial subject when talking about Saint Seiya, without a doubt, is the underworld, and maybe it's because of the poor translations of the work or the lack of interpretation of how this idea is elaborated in the work.
Hades created the space-time of the underworld?
The answer is quite simple and straightforward, Hades didn't create it, he just started to reign there since the age of myths. This is something explained since the first encyclopedia (Cosmo Special - Hypermyth) which was sold on July 27, 1988 and released on August 10, 1988. About 10 years later, the final version of the encyclopedia, also known as by its romaji "Taizen", it was released in Japan on August 22, 2001, and finally, we also have the final version of the hypermyth, released on November 21, 2001 in Monthly Comic Tokumori "Saint Seiya Shôshû-hen". There are many counter-arguments to masking these sources of information, such as saying that the two encyclopedias are secondary canons because they are guides, not manga. Although these arguments are irrelevant, as these materials were written by Kurumada, and were even present in the first version of the manga, but it evolved into such abundant information that he had to write in separate magazines. With all that said, let's start with the explanations:
The first statement about Hades and the Underworld occurs in Vol. 23, Chapter 84, and the following is said:
遥 か 神話 の 時代 時代 よ り ハ ー デ ス 様 が 支配 な さ れ て き た こ の 実 界 で は 人間 な ど ウ ジ 虫 に 等 し い の だ! (http://imgur.com/a/CR8tkyN)⇨Here in the underworld, where Hades-sama has established a reign since the age of myths, humans are as weak as worms!
な さ れ て き た is actually an inflection of な す, with these forms: te-ita form. Indicates an action in progress. Thus, the translation has some statements and an etymology:
1-Hades-sama became the ruler since the age of myth
2-Hades-sama has established influence since the age of myths
3-Hades-sama has built a government since the age of myths
4-Hades-sama has achieved control since the age of myth.
In every sentence, we'll just bump into the concept of him dominating the underworld lands and establishing his reign there. Consequently, Hades saying that he sustained the underworld he created says only about the prisons that were built for souls to be punished under his rule.
Going to Hypermyth and Taizen we find the same foundation. Hypermyth (1988):
神神の時代
地球上に多くの人間たちが生まれるようになると,その体内に"神神の意志"を目覚めさせた者が現れるようになる.小宇宙の発現が第七感(セプンセンシズ)によるものとするならは,神神の意志はそれらをはるガにしのぐ超感覚であるといえる.そして,ますはじめに神神の意志を発現させることのできる3人の者が現れる.彼らはゼっス,ハーデス,ポセイドンと名集り,神として人びとにあがめられ,その勢力を広げていつた.やがて,ゼウスは天空と大地,ポセイドンは海,ハーデスは冥界を右めるようになる.
age of the gods
humanity as they became numerous, there emerged those who awakened the divine will. If the manifestation of the microcosm is due to the Seventh Sense, it can be said that the Divine Will is the supersense that goes far beyond the others. And, in the first place, three appeared who manifested the Divine Will. They were called Zeus, Hades, and Poseidon, and they were worshiped by mortals as gods, and their powers expanded. Eventually, Zeus rightfully inherited the heavens and earth, Poseidon the oceans, and Hades the underworld.
Parts of hypermyth are also within taizen. Taizen (2001), page 154.
ゼ ウ ス た ち オ リ ン ポ ス 神族 と ク ロ ノ ス 兄弟 の テ ィ タ ン 神族 の 「神 々 の 戦 い」 は 壮 絶 を 極 め, 両 者 は 10 年 間 も 争 い つ づ け た が 一 つ い に ゼ ウ ス だ ち が 勝利 し た と い う. そ し て 共 に 戦 っ た 2 人 の 兄 一一ポ セ イ ド ン ン は 海 を 、 ハ ハ ー デ ス は 冥界 を 支配 し 、 ゼ ウ ス 自身 は 主 神 の 座 に 就 き き 、 天空 を 支配 す る 事 に な ウ ス 自身 は 主 神 の 座 に 就 き 、 天空 を 支配 す る 事 に な っ た。
The terrible "Holy War" between Zeus and the Gods of Olympus against the Titans, brothers of Kronos, lasted more than 10 years and ended with the triumph of Zeus. Of the two older brothers who fought alongside Zeus, Poseidon was given the seas to rule, and Hades the underworld. Zeus assumed the position of King of the Gods and ruled the skies.
Tokumori: Houou Seiza Tenshô-hen
"The History of the Great Holy Wars"
From here, there is an analysis made by the Graad foundation, among the spectacular "Hypermito", which can search are ongoing so far, we would like to present what should be noticed.
"The History of the Great Holy Wars"
From here is the analysis made by the Graad Foundation, among the spectacular “Hypermyth”, whose research is ongoing until now, we would like to present what should be highlighted.
And lastly, and without any benefit of the doubt because the context is loud and clear, let's get to the big Hades line at the end of the manga. Hades states;
The underworld I created will disappear along with me... Hell, Elysium, all of it...
If the existence of the underworld space-time depended on Hades, surely anything once erased should no longer exist, the underworld plane should also have collapsed, but is that really what happens? The answer is clear, no. Leaving for the Next Dimension, after the Battle with Lord Hades, Seiya is left in a wheelchair because of the curse of the Sword of Hades that was placed in his chest in the battle against the God. Athena and Shun go to the previous Holy War which took place in the 18th century to destroy this cursed sword within three days in the future (). Keeping that in mind, all events that happen to Seiya in the future happen within 1-3 days (or even less depending on the CR's completion), anyway, it's a relatively short period of time since they left the Elysium field. . In this way, we can see that although Hades was recently erased, as the souls of future saints went to help Athena and Shijima as soon as she was taken out of the Labyrinth that would lead her to Seiya in the future (http://imgur.com/a/ aVxNiWN)
underworld size
First of all, the size of the underworld is not infinite. Most of the quotes that say this realm is infinite in size, in the original talk about the eternity of the land realm that in comparison with the human world will one day cease to exist, about the philosophy that hell, Elysium (paradise), will be eternally there for souls.
Charon claiming the underworld hell is infinite
そ う だ こ こ こ か ら 冥界 は 八 八 つ の 獄 三 つ の の 谷 十 の 壕 ... そ し て 四 四 つ の 圏 と い う と と て つ も な く く 暗 く 果 て し な い い 地獄 十 の 壕 し て 四 四 つ の 圏 と い う と と つ つ も な く く 暗 く 果 て し な い い 地獄 地獄 の
http://imgur.com/a/DGl5S0O
圏 壕jigoku no sekai ga "
This phrase depending on Kanji can mean infinite space, for example
てしな果い"宇宙" ( https://tangorin.com/kanji/宙 )⇨ Hateshinai uchuu ⇨infinite space / universe
However, that's not the meaning here, as Acheron is talking about the torment of hell, and how hell is endless, divided into eight prisons to judge the souls of the dead, so the feeling of "infinity" is a while. without end, or as the kanji itself also means "evarlasting" and "暗 く"to despair, then we have:
That's right. From here, you are in the realm of Hell, which is extremely desperate and eternal, divided into eight prisons, three valleys, ten malebolges, and four spheres.
Malebolges are the "evil ditches" (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malebolge)
Going to the Elysium entry phrase contextually the "infinite" doesn't refer to size but rather the sense of something that will last forever as that's what Thanatos and Hypnos and the other minions of hades keep bragging about the nature of life after death, as above.
1-言 っ た は ず ず だ こ こ は 神話 の 時代 よ り 血 で 汚 さ れ た こ と の な い 実 王 の 地 だ と
( http://imgur.com/a/t7FFtoe )⇨I have already said, this place is the territory of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades), and it has never been unsullied by blood since the age of myth.
2-"あそこはハーデス様の真の肉体が神話の時代より眠っておられる場所だ" e "ただし普通の眠りではないこのヒュプノスが与えた永遠の眠りだ⇨ "This is where the true body of the Lord of the Underworld (Hades) has been resting since the age of mythology." and "This is no ordinary sleep. I have put her into an eternal sleep"
3-There is also Mainstay's quote from Poseidon attached in the "Arc of Poseidon" section, where she elaborates further on the issue of Gods seeking to raise eternal realms, because the matter of the universe has a life limit.
In addition to the relationships about the passage of time, and because they are eternal, we can also remember that at the beginning of the Next Dimension the fields of Elysium were moved to the earth and could fit there.
Seiya against Hades in the Elysium field ( http://imgur.com/a/Mu9pGYA ), Alone, Hades' host body from 240 years ago, being remembered by Hades himself from when Tenma was his friend, and himself in the Elysiums ( http://imgur.com/a/DUJUhEk ). Dohko and Shion getting information that Hades was on Elysium (http://imgur.com/a/ANqVSee), and Dohko was going to kill him now (http://imgur.com/a/My8oVye). Eventually, we are shown that not only the fields of Elysium were teleported to earth, but also Hades' shrine with his sword (http://imgur.com/a/238jilW), and also his castle (http://imgur .com/a/zQEp1uS ).
To be perfectly specific, the Elysium fields are not infinite in size.
hyperdimension
I think this should be in the speed features section. Anyway, the classical universe ( http://imgur.com/l0Iwiwf ) is countless light years ( http://imgur.com/l0Iwiwf ), but this is not part of the hyperdimension, but of real space. The "hyperdimension" is a wormhole connecting the Wailing Wall to Elysium and other dimensions. And it's not the vague argument that the Bronze Boy traveled to the light in the hyperdimension ( http://imgur.com/hdlYIec ), which led to the fields of Elysium. The "hyperdimension" or "extra dimension" is a wormhole because it is visually drawn as one, represented as one, and functions as such.
First, examples of diagrams of a wormhole: [1] http://imgur.com/MAs5I4M , [2] http://imgur.com/e7nfJDH, [3] https://cdn.mos.cms. futurecdn.net/n6LzftRUbAhUMCSWmi2Sji.jpg
1-visually has the grids of a wormhole (http://imgur.com/udlKKK8)
2-There is visible spatial dilation and contrast between superspace and wall space (http://imgur.com/h66HyaM)
3-There is a planet smaller than the wall showing that space dilated (http://imgur.com/7pawWIL)
If that's not enough to convince you, let's go into the context of this "realm". After Hades and Athena flew across the wall to the fields of Elysium, the solar system returned to its normal orbit, and there was no dimensional space of any kind in the view of physical space. Dohko explains that the very act of going through the wall takes him to another dimension http://imgur.com/a/XuREDw1
たとえぶち披いた穴を通ってエリシオンへ行こうとしても普通の人問でははじき返されるか異空間へ呑み込まれるのが落ちじゃ ( http://imgur.com/Zy22d3P )⇨"Even if they opened a hole to get to Elysium, ordinary humans would just be sucked in or swallowed up into another dimension until they died"
This is enough to invalidate the speed formulas about traveling here, however, to dispel the myth of the Hyperdimension talent, we also have the following information:
1-エリシオン...ハーデスの肉体が眠ってる至上の楽園嘆きの壁の向こうにある異次元世界.. ( http://imgur.com/a/fLXUZlg )⇨Elysium fields: Paradise where Hades' body was kept intact. It is a world located in another dimension, behind the Wailing Wall.
2-Seiya e Shun:ち ... 超次 元? かも時空しが捻じれ現象を起こしている
( http://imgur.com/a/J3le1zJ ) ⇨ Seiya: The road to...an extra dimension? Shun: And it's causing a space-time warp
Therefore, the bronzeboys just crossed the interdimensional portal also known as the "hyperdimension", which leads to countless other planes of existence like Elysium, which is countless lights away from the Wailing Wall in real space, and at the end of the universe.
