RWBY Lightspeed Downgrade

[Endou_God_Hand]

I've been looking at the verse, and I've found a lot of issues with its light speed lasers/rating. As a note, this isn't targeting the Relativistic, just the FTL rating.

RWBY's lasers largely come from Penny and Ironwood, however I find this makes no sense, especially in the scenes they're used in. More often than not they hold plenty of disqualifiers which are highlighted on the Light Beam Dodging Feats page. I'd like to address them one by one.

[Penny's Lasers]

• The beam curves through the air or otherwise doesn't travel in straight lines (with the exception of realistic refraction or deflection).
• The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.
• The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.

Example 1, Example 2, Example 3
Showcased in both examples are these qualities. When Neo is hit by the laser it exhibits force, explodes on impact rapidly launching her back, and disperses in an almost splashing like mater. Additionally, it warbles and moves weirdly during its travel, showcasing it is not moving in a straight line.
With this many disqualifies, I find it hard to believe Penny's lasers are true lightspeed, even in the face of a quote on quote "All Atlas lasers are made of light." statement, which frankly may make the rating even more shaky.

[Ironwoods Laser]
Ironwood's laser canon is more or less the same thing, it showcases the following disqualifiers.

• The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

The laser emits a large firey explosion, and even has embers of fire fly off as it weirdly dissipates. This is seen numerous times throughout the fight and should not be overlooked.

• The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.

Ironwood's laser is reflected by a magical ice shield, not a mirror, not something that would normally reflect/refract light, it just bounces off of it and once again causes a large explosion.

With all of this together, I believe the light speed rating for RWBY's lasers should go.

Agree

Neutral

Disagree

 

[Dalesean027]

Those aren't the sole basis for FTL RWBY but I'll comment when off work

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Take your time

 

[Spinoirr]

Those aren't the sole basis for FTL RWBY but I'll comment when off work

Remember that art book that says Penny's lasers are made of photons

Yeah


It's from this

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8 is an artbook published by Bandai Namco Filmworks Inc. The artbook contains over 300 pages of illustrations and concept art for characters, weapons, Grimm, and other settings across Volume 1-8 of RWBY. The artbook also contains production notes and...

rwby.fandom.com

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8 is an artbook published by Bandai Namco Filmworks Inc. The artbook contains over 300 pages of illustrations and concept art for characters, weapons, Grimm, and other settings across Volume 1-8 of RWBY.

The artbook also contains production notes and interviews with Kerry Shawcross, Eddy Rivas, Miles Luna. Patrick Rodriguez, Casey Lee Williams and Alex Abraham.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Remember that guide book that says Penny's lasers are made of photons

Yeah

This doesn't matter if there's at least 3-4 disqualifiers being showcased in multiple instances.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I'm fine with the PAC thing on the spider droid, but light speed / FTL feats just don't make much sense, it's much safer and easier to scale to Rela.

 

[Spinoirr]

I'm fine with the PAC thing on the spider droid, but light speed / FTL feats just don't make much sense, it's much safer and easier to scale to Rela.

I mean even treating them as a relativistic particle beam still yields FTL results

Just lower

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I mean even treating them as a relativistic particle beam still yields FTL results

Just lower

No, the calcs all work on the pretense that the speed of the Laser is Light Speed, mainly Weekly's one for Penny and Ironwood's lasers. The Spider Droid one, which is used for V1-6 scaling, shows that it would still be relativistic.

 

[Spinoirr]

No, the calcs all work on the pretense that the speed of the Laser is Light Speed, mainly Weekly's one for Penny and Ironwood's lasers. The Spider Droid one, which is used for V1-6 scaling, shows that it would still be relativistic.

There's a recalc out there somewhere that uses a relativistic particle beam for the lasers instead

I was told of it but notshown it nor given a link to it

 

[Spinoirr]

There's a recalc out there somewhere that uses a relativistic particle beam for the lasers instead

I was told of it but notshown it nor given a link to it

Never mind, here it is

I mean to be fair the speed difference between light speed and a relativistic particle beam is like 1% or less

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Never mind, here it is

I mean to be fair the speed difference between light speed and a relativistic particle beam is like 1% or less

How recent was this made? Isn't that user banned? I don't really get what a "Miraheze" is.

 

[Spinoirr]

How recent was this made? Isn't that user banned? I don't really get what a "Miraheze" is.

The calc itself was made a few months ago, bro posted just now because it wasnt posted to a blog just in the official death battle Discord, and mirahaze is just the name of the site

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

The calc itself was made a few months ago, bro posted just now because it wasnt posted to a blog just in the official death battle Discord, and mirahaze is just the name of the site

Should it not be added to this wiki and approved by calc members?

 

[Spinoirr]

Should it not be added to this wiki and approved by calc members?

Yes

 

[Dalesean027]

Those aren't the sole basis for FTL RWBY but I'll comment when off work

ah wait never mind I checked and the other Light dodging feats were only Rel so mah bad,

Showcased in both examples are these qualities. When Neo is hit by the laser it exhibits force, explodes on impact rapidly launching her back, and disperses in an almost splashing like mater.

A laser showing force as in pushing alone is not a disqualifying since light and lasers do have momentum and exert force so sufficed to say a super high intensity laser would exert force as well (though if its strong enough to push something it'd likely melt whatever it impacts way before). Interacted as if it were a physical object would moreso entail it being actually interactable like being able to be physically held, grabbed, or like hit away

Example 1, Example 2, Example 3

Additionally, it warbles and moves weirdly during its travel, showcasing it is not moving in a straight line.
With this many disqualifies, I find it hard to believe Penny's lasers are true lightspeed, even in the face of a quote on quote "All Atlas lasers are made of light." statement, which frankly may make the rating even more shaky.

All of this were more or less pretty straight unless you just mean the additional particle effects that come off in the 3rd clip? Otherwise nothing here so far has been disqualifying.

Ironwood's laser canon is more or less the same thing, it showcases the following disqualifiers.

• The beam primarily deals damage by means other than heating materials that absorb it.
  • A laser may cause explosions, but only if it rapidly vaporizes some matter, meaning that the target needs to be partially destroyed in the process.

The laser emits a large firey explosion, and even has embers of fire fly off as it weirdly dissipates. This is seen numerous times throughout the fight and should not be overlooked.

This is pretty bad a laser wouldn't explode like this so I can definitely say this doesn't work

The beam is tangible and can be interacted with physically by normal humans, as if it was a solid, liquid or gas. It shouldn't disperse when being hit as a substance would, and should not be redirectable without using a mechanism like refraction.

here she is refracting it using ice which is something that happens with real light.

The only real bad thing here is Ironwood's beam exploding

 

[Spinoirr]

I'm fine with the PAC thing on the spider droid, but light speed / FTL feats just don't make much sense, it's much safer and easier to scale to Rela.

Well if you're fine with Adam's Rela feat remember

"Additionally, if the characters that would scale to a light beam are already very close to light speed or even exceed it, there is less of a burden of proof regarding the light beam's validity."

All the characters (minus Phyrra) scale above Adam

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I agree that Ironwood's blast shouldn't be considered lightspeed at a glance. Penny's beams would still qualify for reasons stated.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I'll respond in a short while, thanks for the message.

 

[Spinoirr]

I agree that Ironwood's blast shouldn't be considered lightspeed at a glance. Penny's beams would still qualify for reasons stated.

ironwood's laser is the same weapon as Penny's lasers, just designed to be wielded by him

Remember that art book that says Penny's lasers are made of photons

Yeah


It's from this

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8 is an artbook published by Bandai Namco Filmworks Inc. The artbook contains over 300 pages of illustrations and concept art for characters, weapons, Grimm, and other settings across Volume 1-8 of RWBY. The artbook also contains production notes and...

rwby.fandom.com

RWBY Archives Remnant Promenade Vol. 1-8 is an artbook published by Bandai Namco Filmworks Inc. The artbook contains over 300 pages of illustrations and concept art for characters, weapons, Grimm, and other settings across Volume 1-8 of RWBY.

The artbook also contains production notes and interviews with Kerry Shawcross, Eddy Rivas, Miles Luna. Patrick Rodriguez, Casey Lee Williams and Alex Abraham.

Well if you're fine with Adam's Rela feat remember

"Additionally, if the characters that would scale to a light beam are already very close to light speed or even exceed it, there is less of a burden of proof regarding the light beam's validity."

All the characters (minus Phyrra) scale above Adam

Also this rule exists

And while we're at it, maybe have someone calc Cinder reacting to the Silver Eyes after the fight with winter and penny

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

And while we're at it, maybe have someone calc Cinder reacting to the Silver Eyes after the fight with winter and penny

That would likely still be relativistic.

ironwood's laser is the same weapon as Penny's lasers, just designed to be wielded by him

You see, that's a major issue, given the scans you've shown. If all lasers are meant to be the same and Ironwood's are Penny's lasers but they make major flaming explosions, is that not a major inconsistency / strike against them?

Also this rule exists

This rule is largely talking about feats that are light speed without being lasers as far as I can tell. The relativistic feats all come from things that are photons/light.

 

[Spinoirr]

This rule is largely talking about feats that are light speed without being lasers as far as I can tell. The relativistic feats all come from things that are photons/light.

The relativistic feat for Adam comes from a particle beam, not a lightspeed laser. And Penny's lasers are explicitly light as per the guidebook, which applies to Ironwood's lasers by extension.

Also Penny's lasers explicitly cut and burn matter rather than generating force as the primary means of damage. Not to say they don't generate force but like Dale said that isn't really a disqualifying thing





there was never an instance where Penny's lasers make outright explosions. The only laser that made a explosion was Ironwood's laser gun that was built to be a super powerful laser

 

[Dalesean027]

Why are we assuming all the lasers are the exact same anyways especially when the scan says "about the same" which means there's still variation. Iron Woods lasers don't qualify but Peni's would on their own. You trying to argue every laser is the exact same hurts Adam and Peni's stuff more than not so if we're going to be treating them all as exactly the same then I'll have to agree with Endou here that that just does not work

 

[Spinoirr]

Why are we assuming all the lasers are the exact same anyways especially when the scan says "about the same" which means there's still variation. Iron Woods lasers don't qualify but Peni's would on their own. You trying to argue every laser is the exact same hurts Adam and Peni's stuff more than not so if we're going to be treating them all as exactly the same then I'll have to agree with Endou here that that just does not work

Fair enough

I guess "about the same" does mean still variation. Which means Penny's lasers are fine while Ironwood's is more questionable but remember that rule still exists to help Ironwoods laser

"Additionally, if the characters that would scale to a light beam are already very close to light speed or even exceed it, there is less of a burden of proof regarding the light beam's validity."

 

[DragoZeroNova]

If Ironwood's laser was modified to suit him, it could just be way stronger or made to be explosive in exchange for not being as fast. Idk if it should be rel or not, but I think it would be better to just say it's not Lightspeed. Penny's lasers seem fine.

 

[Spinoirr]

If Ironwood's laser was modified to suit him, it could just be way stronger or made to be explosive in exchange for not being as fast. Idk if it should be rel or not, but I think it would be better to just say it's not Lightspeed. Penny's lasers seem fine.

Yeah I posted a recalc of Ironwood's laser using a relativistic particle beam instead

Just needs someone to add it to the wiki

Also given the fact alone Penny's lasers don't blow up while Ironwood's does clearly shows they're different

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

The relativistic feat for Adam comes from a particle beam, not a lightspeed laser. And Penny's lasers are explicitly light as per the guidebook, which applies to Ironwood's lasers by extension.

Even if it's claimed to be made of light but does not ACT how light or a laser would act, it still disqualifies it.
Okay now onto Dale's message.

ah wait never mind I checked and the other Light dodging feats were only Rel so mah bad,

A laser showing force as in pushing alone is not a disqualifying since light and lasers do have momentum and exert force so sufficed to say a super high intensity laser would exert force as well (though if its strong enough to push something it'd likely melt whatever it impacts way before). Interacted as if it were a physical object would moreso entail it being actually interactable like being able to be physically held, grabbed, or like hit away

I don't know if you covered my dissipation message, but that's a big thing I noticed as well that goes with the force thing. When the laser hits other solid substances, especially after pushing people, it splashes off like water droplets, as shown in the Neo clip. I can understand showing SOME force, but it carries Neo along and launches her halfway across the battlefield, which is one of the disqualifies, with the shot itself being about as wide if not wider than Neo is, but it stops when it hits her anyway.

We have a similar situation when Cinder is hit by the same laser.

All of this were more or less pretty straight unless you just mean the additional particle effects that come off in the 3rd clip? Otherwise nothing here so far has been disqualifying.

I mean that but also the fact that the laser is not straight or acts how a laser would, it has a warble / lightning effect to it, which as far as I am aware is not how a laser, especially one made of light would work.

 

[Dalesean027]

Even if it's claimed to be made of light but does not ACT how light or a laser would act, it still disqualifies it.
Okay now onto Dale's message.

I don't know if you covered my dissipation message, but that's a big thing I noticed as well that goes with the force thing. When the laser hits other solid substances, especially after pushing people, it splashes off like water droplets, as shown in the Neo clip. I can understand showing SOME force, but it carries Neo along and launches her halfway across the battlefield, which is one of the disqualifies, with the shot itself being about as wide if not wider than Neo is, but it stops when it hits her anyway.

We have a similar situation when Cinder is hit by the same laser.


I mean that but also the fact that the laser is not straight or acts how a laser would, it has a warble / lightning effect to it, which as far as I am aware is not how a laser, especially one made of light would work.

The "warble" is just particle effect same with the dissipation its not a constant thing and changed across its depection so I wouldn't really overthink that when it isn't even constant or consistent with its depiction but otherwise again nope pushing force alone isn't disqualifying like legit a sufficiently powerful laser could carry enough force to push the moon out of orbit (granted the heat would fry earth) the pushing force of a laser just depends on just how strong and intense it is

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

The "warble" is just particle effect same with the dissipation its not a constant thing and changed across its depection so I wouldn't really overthink that when it isn't even constant or consistent with its depiction but otherwise again nope pushing force alone isn't disqualifying like legit a sufficiently powerful laser could carry enough force to push the moon out of orbit (granted the heat would fry earth) the pushing force of a laser just depends on just how strong and intense it is

The warble effect is present in every single iteration post Volume 1-3, so it's pretty consistent with current RWBY's standards. However, I'm confused, the Laser feats page states this.

• While a laser can in theory push things, through radiation pressure or by causing explosions when vaporizing part of an object, those are niche circumstances and generally a laser should not primarily push things away like a physical projectile would.

I don't think we're seeing radiation pressure, or anything of the like, it is in fact pushing the characters like a normal physical projectile would, and once again the Beam is wider than the people it hits, yet it pushes them along and stops on contact.

You also still didn't talk about the splashing of the laser once it makes contact with a surface or person.

 

[DragoZeroNova]

In regards to the wider beam and pushing people it hits, that could just be Aura, no? Since if Neo didn't have that, she just would've been dead from the laser (Same with Cinder). In fact, your own examples showcase what happens when the laser hits an Aura-less target (no push, just laser things) vs when it hits a target with Aura (soul forcefield, does forcefield things). I'm not sure it makes sense to use the results of a laser beam hitting a soul forcefield as a disqualifier, especially if other depictions of the laser beam show attributes closer to a regular laser beam, since that would make it more likely it's the forcefield's effect.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

In regards to the wider beam and pushing people it hits, that could just be Aura, no? Since if Neo didn't have that, she just would've been dead from the laser (Same with Cinder). In fact, your own examples showcase what happens when the laser hits an Aura-less target (no push, just laser things) vs when it hits a target with Aura (soul forcefield, does forcefield things). I'm not sure it makes sense to use the results of a laser beam hitting a soul forcefield as a disqualifier, especially if other depictions of the laser beam show attributes closer to a regular laser beam, since that would make it more likely it's the forcefield's effect.

A wider laser made of light wouldn't just stop upon impact with the person, if that laser is bigger than them, it would hit yes, but there would be the run-off from the parts that didn't hit still traveling, that is my issue.

And once again, none of this covers the fact that the laser splashes on impact with things, I would really like someone to address that.

 

[Spinoirr]

That's the thing, it doesnt have anything disqualifying it from being a laser. Force is no longer a disqualifier for a laser, and that was the only knock against her lasers. Her laser being stylized dont disqualify them from being lasers, they still move only in straight lines.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

That's the thing, it doesnt have anything disqualifying it from being a laser. Force is no longer a disqualifier for a laser, and that was the only knock against her lasers. Her laser being stylized dont disqualify them from being lasers, they still move only in straight lines.

I showed a direct quote from the wikis on page where force still IS a disqualifier.

• While a laser can in theory push things, through radiation pressure or by causing explosions when vaporizing part of an object, those are niche circumstances and generally a laser should not primarily push things away like a physical projectile would.

A stylized laser would be fine, but it's explicitly stated to be made of light, and light does not behave in this way. You can't just handwave that because it's "stylized". If a laser is made of light and doesn't have the qualities of light, then why say it is made of light in the first place.

 

[Spinoirr]

In regards to the wider beam and pushing people it hits, that could just be Aura, no? Since if Neo didn't have that, she just would've been dead from the laser (Same with Cinder). In fact, your own examples showcase what happens when the laser hits an Aura-less target (no push, just laser things) vs when it hits a target with Aura (soul forcefield, does forcefield things). I'm not sure it makes sense to use the results of a laser beam hitting a soul forcefield as a disqualifier, especially if other depictions of the laser beam show attributes closer to a regular laser beam, since that would make it more likely it's the forcefield's effect.

Also dragon is correct, the only times the laser is shown to 'splash' are when it hits a target that has Aura. Against auraless targets, like the ships and grimm in the clips I posted above, it cuts cleanly through them while leaving glowing teails indicating its super heating them rather than dishing out force. The fight against the Megoliath in particular brings up this property of her lasers as she uses the fact that they heat matter as a way to defeat it, a she focused her laser at its tusk to heat it up to weaken it so Ruby could cut it off

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Also dragon is correct, the only times the laser is shown to 'splash' are when it hits a target that has Aura. Against auraless targets, like the ships and grimm in the clips I posted above, it cuts cleanly through them while leaving glowing teails indicating its super heating them rather than dishing out force. The fight against the Megoliath in particular brings up this property of her lasers as she uses the fact that they heat matter as a way to defeat it, a she focused her laser at its tusk to heat it up to weaken it so Ruby could cut it off

In the same clip the laser is splashing against the grim as it impacts the tusks, while also warbling with that weird energy effect. This isn't how light acts, it doesn't matter if it's against a target with Aura or without Aura, I am talking about the qualities of the laser in particular.
Also, it's clearly showing force as the Grimm is actively pushing against the laser itself.

 

[Spinoirr]

In the same clip the laser is splashing against the grim as it impacts the tusks, while also warbling with that weird energy effect. This isn't how light acts, it doesn't matter if it's against a target with Aura or without Aura, I am talking about the qualities of the laser in particular.
Also, it's clearly showing force as the Grimm is actively pushing against the laser itself.

The warbling is stylization, it doesnt disqualify it from being a laser. It's not making the laser curve unnaturally, it still only moves in straight lines, still primarily causes heat damage, it's just a stylized beam of light.

And again, as almost everyone else here has said, force still isnt a disqualifier anymore. The guidebook gave a direct, concrete statement that her beams are light, theres not much else to argue in that regard.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I showed a direct quote from the wikis on page where force still IS a disqualifier.

A stylized laser would be fine, but it's explicitly stated to be made of light, and light does not behave in this way. You can't just handwave that because it's "stylized". If a laser is made of light and doesn't have the qualities of light, then why say it is made of light in the first place.

.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with the opposition.

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

I agree with the opposition.

Opposition to the thread, or opposition to the feat, I'm a bit confused, apologies.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Opposition of the thread. As in Dalesean and Spinoirr

 

[Endou_God_Hand]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.