Rosalina and her durability

[The_real_cal_howard]

Short thread, there was no reason whatsoever to downgrade her durability. Idc about the AP thing anymore but it's never once said that she used forcefields to tank the resets. If it's speculation to assume that she caused it, then it's equally speculation to say that she used her barriers for herself when it's only said she used them for Mario and Peach.

In short, Rosalina should get her Low 2-C durability back.

 

[Theuser789]

You should ask Warren to comment here since he was the one who made the original arguments

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The Forcefields are operated based on the same mechanics as her magic in general and reality warping. So her magic in general is Low 2-C, and other than that, I agree with the durability upgrade.

 

[LuckyEmile]

Fairly certain this is the basis. Considering she uses her forcefield to shield herself from being shot by Star Bits and being jumped on, and also uses it so stop Mario/Luigi from falling off the Comet Observatory, I can see why people seeing Rosalina "shielding" everyone in order to protect them can be interpretated this way...

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Issue with that however is that it stated she only protected the others, not herself. We don't have anything to prove she used it on herself during that blast.

 

[Marionaruto1]

Except for the starbits portion as she merely deflected them with her wand. The statement itself doesn't include Rosalina within those whom she shielded, and Galaxy 2 showcases her doing her giant form (now a bit more hologram like) without having to be near mario/crew to speak with them. Which demonstrates that she wasn't sharing a shield with anyone to have a conversation with Mario.

 

[LuckyEmile]

I mean... not even Mario was shown to be shielded at that point (when she is seen in her giant from at the end of Galaxy 1, that is), and it took place after the big crunch and big bang of the reactor, so there wasn't really a need at that point to shield him or herself either. Plus, I don't think however close or far they are from each other entirely matters, does it? I mean, even if we take things super literally and say she only shielded Mario and Peach at the time, even then they were far from her when the event occured, and it's quite possible she was shielding many other folks, what with it being a threat to the entire cosmos. So that isn't really so much a counterargument as it is just an exploration into another ability she holds...

(My mistake about the Star Bits, but 1/3 of the points having an error doesn't really negate the point, so the idea of that being a defensive means for herself and others does still stand).

 

[Marionaruto1]

I understand that the distance point I made doesn't matter in the long run, but I decided to mention it because in the previous thread it was used as "evidence" to suggest mario and Rosalina had shared the same shield/space (which wasn't the case).

But the auto shield is within the same vein as how peach will defend herself from Mario's jump and being shot by star bits by pulling out her umbrella in galaxy 2, it's a method of defense but it's not their only means of defense (peach for example has showcased this in her other showings like RPG).

(Also no need to worry about the starbit thing it was simply a correction as to avoid future confusion).

 

[LuckyEmile]

Yeah, I think the idea of them being in the same shield would be clumpsy... I can definitely see it being much more targetted. With that said... your analogy makes perfect sense. Indeed, Peach's parasol is just one of her many means of shielding herself, so it would make sense that Rosalina too would have many different means of defending herself... but defending others? Considering she consistantly uses forcefields to protect herself and others, and the fact that forcefields strongly resemble and are synonymous with sheilds, it makes a lot of sense that she would be shielding people with, well, her shield. I guess if we at least apply Occam's Razor to the situation, we can conclude she used her forcefields.

After all, whilst theoretically she has a whole arsenal of means to defend herself and others if we take the analogy of Peach, an analogy can only go so far when put under the microscope. Rosalina doesn't really protect others with a wide array of techniques, it's very commonly her forcefields, I guess you could say they're her go-to/what she leads with. And so even without Mr Occam lending a hand, it makes a lot of sense that this would be what she's doing, as we have no reason to believe anything else (in a game where she has consistently shielded herself and others with a forcefield, she has no reason to switch tactics in the very same game).

(Also, sorry for the untimely reply and thanks for the understanding/correction)

 

[Marionaruto1]

On the shielding portion you were mentioning, we do know that she did indeed shield mario and peach and most likely it would be in the same bubble barrier she would use to grab mario/Luigi when they fell off the observatory, we also know that she did not defend bowser from the impending explosion as even the prima guide states that bowser almost didn't survive. Notice however that it mainly focuses on the actions Rosalina took during the event who she chose to protect and whom she didn't, which again brings the same reasoning around that she didn't include herself as one of the individuals needing to be shielded.

(Also no worries about responding late)

 

[LuckyEmile]

As much as I am arguing in favour of her indeed using her forcefields/bubble barriers to protect Mario and Peach, I feel I should point out we actually don't know with 100% certainty. It's just the most likely method she used as shown by my above arguments.

As for focusing on who she protected and who she didn't... "them" is a very vague term and subject specific. It's only due to Mario and Peach being the subject that we know this. Which, of course, means the focus is pretty limited. Which brings me on to my next point which is... going to have to be a long one.

I find the idea of Rosalina only shielding Mario and Peach to be very obscure. What reason would she have to protect them? Well, Mario has been collecting Power Stars, right? You know who else has been collecting Power Stars? Captain Toad, as shown in two missions. And that's only the ones they succeeded at, take how the Toad Bridage attempted to fight Kamella, clearly due to the Power Star she flaunts. They were cut short by being crystallised, but still show eagerness to complete the mission as Mario would. Bank Toad even erects a canno , which allows Mario to reach a planet he otherwise wouldn't be able to. They'll even pilot the Starshroom in such a way to grant Mario a shortcut. Whilst not in this game, Captain Toad has even shown to overcome his famed inability to jump just to track down a Power Star, a loyalty he should still have in Galaxy 1. And the one that speaks to me most is how the Toad Bridage actually risks their life and limb in Bubble Breeze Galaxy! And this doesn't go unnoticed, as Rosalina does recognise them to be Mario's friends, and is shown to listen to them. No doubt Captain Toad bragging about his efforts to help collect the stars reached her ear.

It doesn't stop there, either, as we also see Luigi announcing he will write Mario letters if he finds a Power Star on his search (which he does) and he delivers numerous times. In fact, for his Green Star, Luigi makes it clear he wants Rosalina to know he collected it himself, and his quest does seem to be acknowledged. Rosalina even recognises Luigi as Mario's brother, and so she knows the two are close. (I don't think him possibly being a space Luigi negates the point too much, as they see each other as brothers, and everyone else does too).

And this is all without mentioning the other people who helped, by, at the very least, ensuring the stars don't fall into Bowser's claws. There's also Gearmo with his annoying Bob-Omb missions, who appears to be close to Rosalina considering he lives in the Engine Room of her ship. I'd like to quickly touch on the most potent example of this, which is in Sea Slide Galaxy, where everyone comes together to search for Silver Stars, including Bees and Penguins. In fact, one penguin was clearly eager to help their cause, considering he exhuasted himself. This group effort didn't go unnoticed, either, as it was such a big event even Penguru noticed. And so it's pretty possible Rosalina also noticed, or at least was made aware afterwards. And a reminder, they aren't helping Mario in this, they're helping Rosalina; she's the one who requested the Power Stars to be collected, so this is all for her.

So, yes, it doesn't say Rosalina shielded herself... Just like it how doesn't say she shielded the Toad brigade, Luigi, Gearmo, those at close range to her, and the many other NPCs who helped out when the entire cosmos is in danger. Oh, but it did state she helped Peach, who didn't do a thing in the mission to save the Power Stars. Please, do go on about how Rosalina is an unjust, ungrateful, jerkish deity who suffers bias and picks out people based on pure whim despite nothing else ever pointing to that character trait before or after this scene.

Which is a humourous way of basically saying that there were way more deserving people to be shielded that Princess Peach Toadstool. A lot of people risked their lives for her, so it feels really out of character for her to pick and choose like that... I guess one argument you could make in defence of this is that she acknowledges Peach is Mario's special one, and we see from Super Mario Galaxy 2's ending that the desire to be reunited with someone important to you is a pretty important force in the universe (and beyond if applied to the franchise as a whole), and so she'd be keeping the two safe in light of this, but even then, that falls short. In the ending of SMG2 itself, she doesn't actually bring up this force due to the bond between Mario and Peach, but instead because of the bond between herself and Young Master Luma. So she should be well aware that it applies to other people, and so perhaps the people she explicitly refers to as Mario's friends and Mario's brother might be worth saving too. After all, we see Mario's desire to save Luigi as a baby, and later saving him in games such as SM64DS, SM3DL and even Super Mario Galaxy itself does indeed fall in line with this force, and it works both ways (Mario is Missing, Luigi's Mansion Trilogy, etc). So, even this reasoning would be awkward, not to mention a stretch because the force wasn't even introduced at this point, no matter how consistant it has been.

So, tl;dr, not only should Rosalina protect more than just Mario and Peach but she would protect more than just them if she were to stay in-character, or at the very least show gratitude. And as such, if they don't mention her shielding them, it has no reason to mention her shielding herself. Therefore, odds are she was indeed shielding herself. An interesting point is that it's written as though she shielded Mario and Peach solely from the blast, and even you say she was accounting for "who needed to be shielded". If we take it super-literally, therefore, the reason she isn't shielding anyone other than those two is that they're the only people close enough for it to be an issue. If she had no need to shield Luigi and the Toads, people equal to and lesser than Mario (take, for example, how Mario could defeat Kamella, but the majority of the Bridage was defeated), then clearly at their distance there is no threat to them at all from this blast, basically meaning she can't even claim the feat for her own self. Though, as I said, that's only if we take it super-literally. Another point is that Rosalina will make sure that Mario won't fall off her ship. If she's that protective, why wouldn't she help the others in a universal crisis? Once again, not protecting everyone seems very out of character for her.

So, yeah, I think the idea of it not mentioning people being shielded when they clearly should be is rather silly, and taking into account Rosalina's character, we can conclude she most likely did indeed shield more than just those stated.

EDIT: I forgot to mention throughout all of this that the reason she didn't shield the lumas is because they were trying to stun/nullify the black hole...

 

[Soupywolf5]

Good god that post's a long boi

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

To be fair, everyone she hasn't shielded could have just been revived when the Space-Time Continuum was reset.

 

[LuckyEmile]

To be fair, everyone she hasn't shielded could have just been revived when the Space-Time Continuum was reset.

Hmm, but in that case, why shield Mario and Peach in the first place if she's confident they'll just be revived? And what if she was one of the people revived when the Space-Time Continuum was reset?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

She was teaching them about the cycle of life, that would probably be the reason.

 

[LuckyEmile]

It feels kinda of weird she'd protect Mario solely to teach him of the great cycle of life, especially when you consider she also protected Peach, who is nowhere to be seen in this lecture. It doesn't even really hold water as a means of defence, either, as we can outright hear Mario and Rosalina aren't the only ones in this astral plane, with Rosalina addressing his attention to the baby stars, implying that this took place after this revival you proposed. In which case, neither really support the idea of her surviving without a forcefield... Maybe if Peach was there too, it would be more believable, but the fact she is missing seems to indicate that this scene no longer concerns who she shielded.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It seems really weird, but it's what we got. Also, I recall Peach also being there, or at least it was stated she was shielded as well.

 

[LuckyEmile]

It's indeed weird, and whilst it is what we have... we also have more. Reading between the lines seems to point at more than just Mario and Peach being shielded, and so is an appealing counterpoint. And thus, if more than just those two were shielded, then there's also a chance Rosalina herself was shielded.

And unfortunately, Peach isn't there to attend Rosalina's lecture. Considering the statement is the only proof we have of her being protected, one which doesn't come from the game itself, it's fair that the game didn't decide to show her, but, in light of this statement, it means that whoever got shielded isn't important for this scene. And so whether of not Rosalina survived isn't actually backed up by the scene itself if we are to believe people got revived after the Big Crunch and Big Bang. Chronologically, the lecture scene takes place after the Big Bang, and so would be after this hypothetical resurrection event, which is backed up by more than just Mario and Rosalina being present in this astral plane. As such, if we are to adopt this school of thought, then it's entirely likely Rosalina didn't actually survive the destruction (I don't mean 100%, but there is nothing to disprove the idea, and instead the passing of time seems to support the idea).

And of course, if we reject that school of thought, ergo, the revival event didn't occur, then, well, we're back to the whole idea that Rosalina wouldn't favour Mario and Peach above everyone else. Which... whilst it does now support the idea she survived the Big Bang and Big Crunch, it's likely this was thanks to her forcefields...

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Why are we reading between the lines at all?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure. But in depth details can be important.

 

[LuckyEmile]

See above long post. Reading between the lines is essential in general, so this case should be no exception.

 

[Marionaruto1]

You've made many points so i'll look at them one by one.

-Rosalina only shielding Mario and Peach to be very obscure. What reason would she have to protect them?

As DDM had mentioned She was teaching Mario about the cycle of life and how everything changes and nothing remains the same even if by a little, and how she wanted Mario to see that wonder, Which Mario also exclaims at the end of the game by shouting "welcome new galaxies" Showcasing what Rosalina wanted. Peach, as you had already mentioned later in the same paragraph, is that she acknowledges Peach as Mario's special one and did not want peach to forget this experience, Bowser is his own special case. Luigi you can also say was also shielded due to him also having been a playable character.

-You know who else has been collecting Power Stars?

Yes, many people had power stars but as Rosalina exclaims the Stars had been scattered (by a strange pulling force) not that bowser collected them all, so it's just as likely that bowser did not grab them all Since in Mario 64 and 64DS he had a Habit of Not being able to find/collect all the stars in Peach's castle. Along with their being friendly creatures who have no connections to Bowser, that may have came by these power stars by chance. Many of them didn't even now the power they hold which is shown by them giving it away in most cases for doing simple labor jobs or as a trophy.

-Sea Slide Galaxy, where everyone comes together to search for Silver Stars, And a reminder, they aren't helping Mario in this, they're helping Rosalina; she's the one who requested the Power Stars to be collected, so this is all for her.

The mission you used as an example is a bit poor as the inhabitants looking for the silver stars were only helping captain toad, they never once mention doing this for rosalina. The only person doing this for rosalina is Mario/Luigi, Captain Toad is doing it for Mario/Luigi it's a simple Ladder no greater purpose than that. reg people->Captain toad->Mario/Luigi->Rosalina. These people don't know for what reason they're collecting the silver stars they don't even know who rosalina is. So no this was not all for Rosalina and while you could say they "helped" not a single one of them were able to collect any of the silver stars Mario/Luigi still had to do all the work with he others mainly pointing out what they "think" is a silver star.

-this doesn't go unnoticed, as Rosalina does recognise them to be Mario's friends, and is shown to listen to them. No doubt Captain Toad bragging about his efforts to help collect the stars reached her ear.

Yes rosalina acknowledge them but at the same time she also shruggs them aside and mainly only tells Mario/Luigi that they are at a disignated section on the observatory, and besides helping Mario, Rosalina never speaks to them as they are not the main ones embarking on the mission to save the powerstars.

-There's also Gearmo.

Gearmo is part of a species and the example you are using is very unlikely to be the same exact gearmo that gave Mario a power star as theirs no evidence to back as there are other gearmo that wear a green shirt and have a black gear hair, and as for the conversation the gearmo has in the engine room it makes him sound like they had just met Mario and is not an acquaintance.

-do go on about how Rosalina is an unjust, ungrateful, jerkish deity who suffers bias and picks out people based on pure whim despite nothing else ever pointing to that character trait before or after this scene.

This is not Rosalina first rodeo when it comes to the universe being remade. Rosalina speaks of changes and how things never repeat in Quite the same way, telling Mario that "he'll see". We also know that this is the case as those who were reborn after the ending of galaxy do not have any memories of these events during galaxy 2, Rosalina, however, speaks as though she has seen multiple of them. (we know Mario/Luigi, peach, and bowser retain memories due to the ending of galaxy). I don't know what you want me to tell you about the diety part and how Rosalina can pick and choose based on whims because that is usually what happens with dieties of a higher power. Rosalina is a mystery character shrouded in mystery, she doesn't showcase any character traits that provide any evidence for what you may be "jokingly" suggesting. this ending scene was just Rosalina wanting to show and explain to Mario and specifically him about the cycle of life, whether it's weird or not makes no difference as this was what Rosalina wanted to do.

(Sorry for the late reply, I was using my phone at first and then my whole argument got overwritten when i accidentally clicked Quote and being busy with work had this response take a bit longer).

 

[Antvasima]

So what are the conclusions here?

 

[Marionaruto1]

Conclusions (these were never argued against)

- Rosalina's used forcefields to tank the resets. Rosalina should get her Low 2-C durability back.

- The Forcefields are operated based on the same mechanics as her magic in general and reality warping. So her magic in general is Low 2-C.

Unconcluded (still being discussed/debated)

- if Rosalina did or did not shield herself from the universe explosion.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

The chick is implied to have survived several of these resets, hence her knowledge of what happens when they happened. You're telling me that she just so happened to shield herself every single time, nothing saying she used forcefields? If you're gonna say we're using implications to downgrade her from Low 2-C, you're using implications to limit her to forcefields.

The general "you." Not anyone in particular.

 

[Theuser789]

You should ask Warren to comment here since he was the one who made the original arguments for it

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Done.

 

[Warren_Valion]

I couldn't even begin to care about this topic anymore, especially since this is the most tumultuous week in my life with it being finals week.

I wasted enough of my time on this topic back when I made my original thread on the topic. Do whatever you want, Goodbye.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Hey you're not the only one in finals week. You can't ride that high horse with me.

 

[Mephistus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PLsbLWG_x8

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) that is the vanilla game fyi

Problem is its entirely off-screen and Rosalina's forcefields passively protect her from even mario drop kicking her from behind her back.

Also, its more outlandish to say she tanks the universal ending events with her natural durability if base Mario chars like Bowser are currently 4-C or less than low 2-C and she get's physically hurt by stuff the base cast like peach and mario get equally hurt by and needed protection from said events.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Those are all game mechanics; Rosalina was only playable in 3D World via fan service and nothing to do with plot or story. Also, you can sort of tell that she was clearly the one who recreated the Universe as we see her wave her arms right before we see the Universe get reseted and everyone wakes up in the Mushroom Kingdom safe and sound.

And actually, there is going to be another thread upgrading the base cast to 4-A based on multiple feats.

 

[Mephistus]

I'm entirely against Rosalina being the one responsible for the universe being recreated and her magic being low 2-C via that to begin with.

Either the universe itself did the job via the guidebook by displaying its awseome power or the lumas did the job since them dying repeats the process as per Rosalinas own words.

Hard to call it game mechanics if she's bothering to block something with her forcefields that she should shrug off mario's attack like a star bit attack being physically deflected like a flea.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Her forcefields aren't passive, the game itself is trying to prevent you from attacking Rosalina regardless of where you atracking.

Using 3D World as an example doesn't work due to the fact that we aren't going to scale her from this game as she's superior to the main cast. It also contradicts that her forcefields are always passive.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Dino did say it was said on the Nintendo Official website that's not longer up and running that she indeed was the one who created the Grand Stars, and it was the power of a single Grand Star that destroyed the Universe.

It's still a gag, nothing to take seriously. The Star bits thing don't actually damage her at all.

 

[Theuser789]

Pretty sure it was agreed in the last thread that unless that is actualy proved she would remain at the tier she is right now, that was the agreement

 

[DatOneWeeb]

We aren't arguing that she recreated the universe, we are scalling her magic.

I have no idea why her using a forcefield to block an attack would contradict any of this, might as well say Marie from Splatoon doesn't scale to Inklings because she blocks ink if you try to shoot at her.

 

[Mephistus]

The toads merely gathering together star bits made a Grand Star in the intro to the first galaxy game, it doesn't seem like that would scale to her unless the said scan makes it clearer.

I'm not seeing any definite points that she didn't use her forcefield if she's used it on herself in character during the same game.

 

[Marionaruto1]

Rosalina's forcefields passively protect her

"the auto shield is within the same vein as how peach will defend herself from Mario's jump and being shot by star bits by pulling out her umbrella in galaxy 2," P╠Âa╠Âs╠Âs╠Âi╠Âv╠Âe╠ ╠Âu╠Âm╠Âb╠Âr╠Âe╠Âl╠Âl╠Âa╠ ╠Âp╠Âe╠Âa╠Âc╠Âh╠ ╠Âw╠Âh╠Âe╠Ân╠Â?╠Â

This would also disprove the passive force fields since she's obviously able to be hit in this game, so yea 3D world can be chalked down to game mechanics to nerf Rosalina to a comparable level.

(While writing this one more messages pops up it was directed at Mephistus but others have already said what I did).

 

[DatOneWeeb]

How does this relate to what we are saying when this wasn't a scan are using.

 

[Theuser789]

We aren't arguing that she recreated the universe, we are scalling her magic.

I have no idea why her using a forcefield to block an attack would contradict any of this, might as well say Marie from Splatoon doesn't scale to Inklings because she blocks ink if you try to shoot at her.

I thought this thread was only for dura?

Because tbh the original arguments for the downgrade (AP part) haven't been adreesed yet