Rock Lee upgrade

[Bernkastelll]

it should be at least 24x as it mentions Dozens of times, not Dozen times

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You need a full Jinchuriki form to use a tailed beast bomb.
Are we scaling Jinchuriki to tailed beast bombs?

In their Tailed Beast Forms, yeah.

You need MS for Amaterasu.
Are we scaling MS users to Amaterasu?

False equivalence.
Besides, don't we consider Amaterasu to be Durability Negation?

Guy states that the Forward Lotus increases one's strength by dozens of times, and then immediately after states that the Forward Lotus only opens the First Gate. The Rin no Sho page for the Reverse Lotus explicitly states that "[in] the "Front Lotus", he's limited [to] the First Gate". And yes, speed is increased as well.

The Eight Gates Inner Formation is consistently pinned as granting the user power that surpasses the Gokage combined—even by tens of times.

 

[Reio35]

This is definitely not talking about the first lotus. Guy was clearly talking about the reverse lotus which can destroy your body if used. Lee wasn't that hurt after the first lotus.

Also the lotus is just technique that has nothing to do with the gates. However when used in combination with the gates. It can be enhanced by 24×. Im unsure weather guy is talking about the lotus when its used with all the gates open or just 3. But from the context it seems hes talking about lotus when it's used with all gates give you 24× amp considering he was talking about when all the gates are released and it would completely destroy the body. And when lee used lotus it only broke his leg.

 

[KingTempest]

In their Tailed Beast Forms, yeah.

False equivalence.
Besides, don't we consider Amaterasu to be Durability Negation?

Here's a better argument then.

You need 6th gate to use Asakujaku which produces fire because of it's combat speed.
Every movement done in 6th gate isn't as fast as Asakujaku

Guy states that the Forward Lotus increases one's strength by dozens of times, and then immediately after states that the Forward Lotus only opens the First Gate.

Asakujaku needs the 6th gate and it's faster than anything the 6th gate can produce on its own.
Hirudora needs the 7th gate and it's stronger than anything the 7th gate can produce on its own.
Night Guy needs the 8th gate and it's stronger than anything the 8th gate can produce on its own.

The Rin no Sho page for the Reverse Lotus explicitly states that "[in] the "Front Lotus", he's limited [to] the First Gate". And yes, speed is increased as well.

Speed is increased with Sage Mode as well. We don't accept it to be 1:1 with the strength multiplier.

The Eight Gates Inner Formation is consistently pinned as granting the user power that surpasses the Gokage combined—even by tens of times.

What does this have to do with anything?

 

[Nullflowerblush]

You need 6th gate to use Asakujaku which produces fire because of it's combat speed.
Every movement done in 6th gate isn't as fast as Asakujaku

When Guy first used the Sixth Gate on Kisame, his ordinary kick was lit ablaze. And, the Asakujaku is just Guy punching fast—his own raw speed, as with every other pure taijutsu technique, which is backed up by his previous fight with Kisame (i.e., his initial flaming kick).

Hirudora needs the 7th gate and it's stronger than anything the 7th gate can produce on its own.

"It's just a plain super punch".
The Jin no Sho also confirms that the Hirudora is simply a shockwave created from an ordinary Seventh Gate punch.
The battle with Madara also confirms that his air cannons are weaker than his straight punches.

These techniques do not increase one's speed or anything of the sort, because rather than utilizing Nature Transformation (i.e., any elemental attack, by the way, they should have Elemental Manipulation, but let's save that for later), Shape Transformation (i.e., Rasengan, Chidori, etc.), or just a concentration of Chakra in general (i.e., Chakra Enhanced Strength, Butterfly Bullet Bombing, etc.) in order to increase one's power, Taijutsu relies on the user's raw physical ability—their stamina.

Speed is increased with Sage Mode as well. We don't accept it to be 1:1 with the strength multiplier.

How come? Taijutsu revolves around the user's physical abilities, and when Taijutsu is strengthened, so are those abilities, which include speed.

What does this have to do with anything?

The Eight Gates Inner Formation has a consistent amp (i.e., tens of times greater than the Gokage combined; likely only in the case of Guy, though), so the argument that Guy was referring to all Eight Gates when stating that the user's strength increases by dozens of times is bunked; unless you care to argue that Guy is High 6-A in his formal state.

 

[KingTempest]

When Guy first used the Sixth Gate on Kisame, his ordinary kick was lit ablaze. And, the Asakujaku is just Guy punching fast—his own raw speed, as with every other pure taijutsu technique, which is backed up by his previous fight with Kisame (i.e., his initial flaming kick).

Because he was preparing for Asakujaku there.
No fire here

"It's just a plain super punch".
The Jin no Sho also confirms that the Hirudora is simply a shockwave created from an ordinary Seventh Gate punch.

He threw like 6 attacks here and not a single Hirudora.

The battle with Madara also confirms that his air cannons are weaker than his straight punches.

I said night guy, not air cannons

These techniques do not increase one's speed or anything of the sort, because rather than utilizing Nature Transformation (i.e., any elemental attack, by the way, they should have Elemental Manipulation, but let's save that for later), Shape Transformation (i.e., Rasengan, Chidori, etc.), or just a concentration of Chakra in general (i.e., Chakra Enhanced Strength, Butterfly Bullet Bombing, etc.) in order to increase one's power, Taijutsu relies on the user's raw physical ability—their stamina.

The eight gates is revolved around allowing more chakra into the body. This point is moot.

How come? Taijutsu revolves around the user's physical abilities, and when Taijutsu is strengthened, so are those abilities, which include speed.

Because it's never stated to be 1:1.

The Eight Gates Inner Formation has a consistent amp (i.e., tens of times greater than the Gokage combined; likely only in the case of Guy, though), so the argument that Guy was referring to all Eight Gates when stating that the user's strength increases by dozens of times is bunked; unless you care to argue that Guy is High 6-A in his formal state.

Dozens can reach up to that level as well you know that right. That's just more dozens than a few

 

[Nullflowerblush]

He threw like 6 attacks here and not a single Hirudora.

I said night guy, not air cannons

This does not disprove the fact that the Hirudora is nothing more than an air cannon created by a heavy attack—Guy states as such, and the databook states as such. And, I brought up the Sekizo to illustrate the point that "punches > air cannons created by punches".

The eight gates is revolved around allowing more chakra into the body. This point is moot.

Okay, you missed the point.
Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation increase one's power exponentially.
Concentrating Chakra into your fists increases one's strength exponentially.

The Eight Gates simply unlock nodes in the body that restrict the flow of Chakra in one's body, allowing them to access more and more of their power. This is not comparable to those three examples above; whereas those examples are of one's Chakra being manipulated in a way that boosts their power, the Eight Gates is a case of the body tapping into more of its energy, thus allowing them to access more of their strength. Every bit of power that a user of the Eight Gates acquires is their own, the strength they built up with their body—it's just locked behind a barrier.

Dozens can reach up to that level as well you know that right. That's just more dozens than a few

Yea, but it's kinda funky how those two statements were disconnected.

 

[KingTempest]

This does not disprove the fact that the Hirudora is nothing more than an air cannon created by a heavy attack—Guy states as such, and the databook states as such. And, I brought up the Sekizo to illustrate the point that "punches > air cannons created by punches".

You can't compare a small air cannon to Hirudora. Saying because one air cannon is weaker than it's regular punches doesn't mean that all of them are weaker than its natural punches. This is like saying he's holding back against everyone he's ever used Hirudora on because he didn't hit them with his fist.

Hirudora is a super punch, but that super punch isn't what he always produces in 7th gate.

If these special techniques didn't amp anything then they wouldn't be special.

Okay, you missed the point.
Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation increase one's power exponentially.
Concentrating Chakra into your fists increases one's strength exponentially.

The Eight Gates simply unlock nodes in the body that restrict the flow of Chakra in one's body, allowing them to access more and more of their power. This is not comparable to those three examples above; whereas those examples are of one's Chakra being manipulated in a way that boosts their power, the Eight Gates is a case of the body tapping into more of its energy, thus allowing them to access more of their strength. Every bit of power that a user of the Eight Gates acquires is their own, the strength they built up with their body—it's just locked behind a barrier.

Fair point.

Another thing is that you know that people can draw out more power and speed w/out the gates right?
A prime example is the Chidori users, who draw out their full speed when they wish correct?

Yea, but it's kinda funky how those two statements were disconnected.

The first statement is all that matters.
Saying "the lotus makes people dozens of times stronger" and connecting it to anything but the lotus says a lot.

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Oh, I am so sorry for disappearing like that.

You can't compare a small air cannon to Hirudora. Saying because one air cannon is weaker than it's regular punches doesn't mean that all of them are weaker than its natural punches. This is like saying he's holding back against everyone he's ever used Hirudora on because he didn't hit them with his fist.

Hirudora is a super punch, but that super punch isn't what he always produces in 7th gate.

Alright, that's fair. But Guy explicitly noted that it's a "super punch". The Lotus is never described as super series of kicks.
if it is, then i will eat my hat.

Another thing is that you know that people can draw out more power and speed w/out the gates right?
A prime example is the Chidori users, who draw out their full speed when they wish correct?

The Chidori involves "super-activating one's flesh", thus releasing an enormous amount of chakra, making the user "too fast to ascertain the opponent's counterattack". The technique is also another example of Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation increasing power exponentially, so across the board, the Chidori is an amp. But, the Chidori increases the power and the speed of the user by augmenting their chakra through cellular hyper-activation and elementumkinetic application. Opening the Eight Gates allows the user to release more of their inner chakra, rather than actually boosting it.

The first statement is all that matters.
Saying "the lotus makes people dozens of times stronger" and connecting it to anything but the lotus says a lot.

So, he is 5x more powerful with the First Gate, and a dozens of times more powerful with the Lotus specifically?

The Lotus draws its power from opening the Gates and again, it is just a series of kicks and a grapple. With the Hirudora, sure, you could state that it's a special amp, since it's referred to as a "super punch", but these cases are not comparable.

Also, again, Guy states that the dozens of times multiplier derives from opening the Gate, not from the Lotus itself.

 

[KingTempest]

Oh, I am so sorry for disappearing like that.

We all have lives, you're good

Alright, that's fair. But Guy explicitly noted that it's a "super punch". The Lotus is never described as super series of kicks.
if it is, then i will eat my hat.

The lotus is a technique that hurt's Lee's body even though other first gate techniques don't hurt his body. There's a clear difference in the techniques.

The Chidori involves "super-activating one's flesh", thus releasing an enormous amount of chakra, making the user "too fast to ascertain the opponent's counterattack". The technique is also another example of Shape Transformation and Nature Transformation increasing power exponentially, so across the board, the Chidori is an amp. But, the Chidori increases the power and the speed of the user by augmenting their chakra through cellular hyper-activation and elementumkinetic application. Opening the Eight Gates allows the user to release more of their inner chakra, rather than actually boosting it.

This does not amplify his speed, it's him using his peak natural speed.
The activation of the flesh allows more chakra, which is stated. They use the speed portion separate from the flesh portion.

So, he is 5x more powerful with the First Gate, and a dozens of times more powerful with the Lotus specifically?

I always took it that the boost to stats wasn't linear, and even though it lets you use 100% of your muscular power, it's not as simple as "100/20"

Look at Deku. His 5% is Large building and his 100% is Small City level+. Muscular Increase isn't linear with power increase.

The Lotus draws its power from opening the Gates and again, it is just a series of kicks and a grapple. With the Hirudora, sure, you could state that it's a special amp, since it's referred to as a "super punch", but these cases are not comparable.

No, it draws in power directly from the "energies locked within the wielder's cellular structure" which is the physical energy portion of chakra.

Also, again, Guy states that the dozens of times multiplier derives from opening the Gate, not from the Lotus itself.

"Limits that the LOTUS uses chakra to forcibly override, enabling the user to draw upon strength that is dozens of times his usual level, even if the user's body is destroyed in the process."

I don't know how you guys got this being from the gates when it verbatim says that it's the lotus that does it.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I dont mean to be rude but I feel like we should limit the amount of Naruto CRTs we are doing.

 

[KingTempest]

I dont mean to be rude but I feel like we should limit the amount of Naruto CRTs we are doing.

You're not wrong, we have like a dozen open

 

[M3X_2.0]

You guys are a bit late

https://vsbattles.com/threads/rule-violations-reports-new-forum.107529/post-3917568