Rewriting the Abstract Existence page

[Kaltias]

Extending AE to living ideas and similar stuff is fine by me.

What I meant is that they do fit the criteria to be a "conceptual being", just a Nominalist-Idealist concept instead of a "concept" as we intend it when talking about Conceptual Manipulation.

 

[The_Everlasting]

My general point is that I feel we really need to extent the Abstract Existence page to encompass this stuff, because it currently only discusses concepts.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree with Evahlasting.

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

Well like I said with Ever, if we're gonna do this, we should probably define what defines "Abstract" and where is the line between it and Non-Corporeal (We currently rate the Touhou Gods, who are described as "Ideas", as just Non-Corporeal for example)

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

>"We established that Abstacts would have type 8 and Mid-Godly"

.........Did we???

 

[DMB_1]

>"We established that Abstacts would have type 8 and Mid-Godly"
.........Did we???

From what I understand, yes, a while ago. That's the entire reason as of why the ones of Mortis kept having Mid-Godly for such a long time.

 

[Kaltias]

The rule was the opposite actually.

Being an embodiment wasn't enough to get AE, and you needed to demonstrate mid-godly/type 8

 

[Antvasima]

I am too busy to get in-depth involved in this, but it seems like the rest of the staff have a good grasp of the situation.

Somebody would have to write a draft for the new text in a blog though.

 

[Kaltias]

@Saik

I'd say that in order to rate something as "abstract" the main point would be existing as a concept, but including Nominalism and Idealism.

So it wouldn't necessarily be a concept that alters reality when changed, but it would include stuff like living ideas.

@Ant

I can do it when the discussion will be concluded

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Kaltias]

In this case an abstract would be something that embodies either a concept, a thought, an information, or something akin to this.

The difference between an abstract and a non-corporeal would be basically that the essence of the abstract is "only an idea", so to speak.

Meanwhile something like a ghost isn't merely an idea, you simply can't interact with its essence under normal circumstances.

It's harder to explain than to imagine lol

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

What characters do we know will be affected by this?

 

[Saikou_The_Lewd_King]

I'm probably gonna try my hand at making the Touhou Gods abstracts too, given their description as being ideas (Not the mental kind either, given that they existed before humans did).

The Creation Trio is already in the process of being downgraded too.

 

[Kaltias]

The members of the CT are abstracts following those criteria though.

Also, anyone has a suggestion to explain what qualifies as "abstract" (and the difference with simple non-corporeality) following these criteria?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Maybe the SGDL?

 

[Kaltias]

The SGDL are type 2 I think.

If you meant who is affected including people already considered abstracts, pretty much all of them I assume

 

[DMB_1]

Or Bill Cipher

 

[Executor_N0]

Apocalymon would fit like Type 1, I believe. It is directly described as being just a "concept" not having a corporeal existence, the physical body you see is just an avatar used by it. But its true form is a conceptual existence, a mere idea/form (In this case, the concept of non-evolution).

 

[Kaltias]

That would be type 1 yeah.

 

[Kaltias]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

Perhaps it would be best if you write a draft now, and then ask the staff for further input.

 

[Kaltias]

I'll write a draft tomorrow

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the help.

 

[Kaltias]

Made a draft.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Looks good, guessing existing as a possibility is type 1.

About type 3, maybe we should explain what exactly being an embodiment entials? For type 1, to affect the being you need to be able to affect their abstraction while type 2 the being will regenerate as long as the abstraction exists.

Only thing said about type 3 is destroying the abstraction isn't necessary to destroy them, but do you need to be able to affect the abstraction directly to affect them? I already brought it up before, where a type 3 could be a physical being, might be worth mentioning.

 

[Antvasima]

I also think that the draft seems to be fine, but we preferably need more input.

 

[Kaltias]

The thing is that "what being a type 3 embodiment entails" varies from fiction to fiction.

Is specifying that they could be corporeal really necessary if it's already specified that only type 1 abstracts are necessarily non-corporeal?

I edited the draft a bit

 

[Kaltias]

Also, if we are regrouping various kinds of abstracts (ideas, concepts, possibilities etc) under a single term, would it be a good idea to specify that even if the type of AE is the same, the kind of abstractions also makes a difference?

For example killing a type 2 abstract reliant on an idea =/= killing a type 2 reliant on a concept

 

[Antvasima]

That might be a good idea, yes, but I am not the right person to ask.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Well clearly killing something reliant on a concept isn't the same as killing something reliant on an idea, with the former being superior, so might be worth mentioning.

 

[Aeyu]

I agree with creating additional types for "Abstract Existence", although we should maybe perhaps change the name of the power/ability to "Embodiment", where we can then have different types relating to what said character embodies (physical attribute, alignment, idea/ideal, concept, transcendental)

I think we should add embodying physical constants and alignments, respectively, as lower types (Types 4 and 5)

 

[Crzer07]

I agree with the levels as even the low tiers (tier 8-7) are manifestations of certain things like ppl in bleach verse. Abstract gives the impression of it being platonic so I guess if u wanna call it something else or split them into more pages.

 

[Kaltias]

Changing it to "Embodiment" is fine by me.

Would they really count as lower types? It seems more like embodying a different part of reality

 

[Kaltias]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

You can ask some other staff members and former staff members to give input here via their message walls.

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody remind me about our conclusions so far?