Revisiting the Elizabeth Greene shockwave

[Golden_Void]

Before on Alex Mercer's profile, he had a hypersonic reaction (at least, I'm not home to check the history), but now it's supersonic+, so let's see.

Mercer can casually dodge tank shells, which have a velocity of 1575m/s (mach 4.59), even at near-point blank range. 1m/1575m/s = 0.00063s, supersonic+ reactions. When Greene uses her shockwave, Alex's time perception slows down immensely, obviously proving that this is faster than what he can casually react to.

I did an in-game test, and when you pull up the weapon wheel, it slows down time significantly for a few seconds, then goes back to normal. I used a stopwatch, and I got about 1.051 seconds (I did multiple tests) equals a tenth of an in-game second. I was able to verify this since many events in the game have an in-game timer. Using this ability I was even able to jump out of the way while the missile didn't even leave the barrel of the tank.

So since 1/10 of a second = about 1 second to Mercer, 0.00063/10 = 0.000063s, high hypersonic reactions.

I'll still have to calc the actual shockwave later, but that should be his reaction speed when he slows his perception of time.

Feat here at the beginning: https://youtu.be/IrkzQD6Xq08

 

[Golden_Void]

Bump

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know. This may be an example of Calc Stacking. However, I would prefer more community input.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

The first part would be calc stacking

The part about the weapon wheel, if I am corectly understanding what you mean, would be game mechanics

 

[Kaltias]

^ Monarch beat me at it.

The weapon wheel time slow is just used to not stress the player

 

[Antvasima]

Okay then. Thanks for the input.

 

[Golden_Void]

Yeah I know, that was only because I had to be somewhere, but now I'm home to figure out the stressful amount of time slowing that happened, even though it looks exactly the same, which if it is, would be usable, since there's no in-game timer for the fight.

You said the first part is calc stacking. The tank part?

1. He can casually dodge tank shells. Which mean his reaction speed must be casually supersonic+ as I've shown.

The only part I can see as calc-stacking would be his time-perception, but that's a muliplier.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I thought that you multiplied his speed with slowed time. Perhaps I misunderstood.

 

[Golden_Void]

I didn't multiply his speed, I multiplied his reaction speed, which is logically what happens when your perception of time increases, that's why I'm confused about this being calc-stacking.

The only thing I have to do is find the amount of time-slowing in the Greene fight.

 

[Kaltias]

Calc stacking is saying "it must be as fast as a tank shell".

 

[Golden_Void]

"When Greene uses her shockwave, Alex's time perception slows down immensely, obviously proving that this is faster than what he can casually react to."

He doesn't adjust his perceptions when he's getting shot at by a tank, however he does so when Greene uses her shockwave, implying its a much faster attack, not that it has any bearing on the calc itself since it wasn't done based on her shockwave.


That said, while fighting a rage-inducing Greene, I found it takes Alex 1.32s to cross three street lines . When Greene uses her shockwave and his perception slows, the same feat takes him 4.977 seconds to do. That makes his perception increase 3.77x his normal levels.

1m/1575m/s = 0.00063s/3.77 = 0.00016s Hypersonic+ Reactions

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Or, as it looks more likely to me when I just saw the feat...

It is just cinematography. It has no bearing that Mercer himself is actually capable of percieving the event in slow motion

 

[Kaltias]

The thing is saying "this thing is obviously faster than his usual reactions" is calc stacking. Same reason why we don't have Island level Homura Akemi because she survived an impact with a skyscraper that blitzed her (she has Mach 619 reactions). Because assuming that it was Mach 619 is calc stacking

 

[Golden_Void]

Well the reasoning for why his perception changes and the fact that it does are two different things. Also Monarch that's just a lowball. If that was the case, Cole's precision bolt doesn't slow down his time perception, it would just be cinematography.

Calc stacking uses the result of one calc as a basis for another feat, which isn't what I did. But logically if you have to slow down time for one attack and not for another, it does suggest that the first attack is faster.

 

[Antvasima]

I would appreciate more staff input regarding this issue.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Unite, Cole's Precision is explicitly said to slow down his perception of time, and is theorised to be done so by overcharging the brain.

Time slowing down when opening the weapons menu to switch abilities would most definitely be game mechanics. And the feat you have, unless there is an ability/mutuation explicitly stating that Mercer's perception of time slows down, then the time slow effect during Greene's shockwave would most definitely be simple cinematography to look impressive to the player.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the information.

 

[Golden_Void]

The time effect isn't just simple cinematography, considering when you're within range of her devastator, everything slows down, but when you're not, everything happens with a normal time effect. It would make no sense to simply be that reason.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

I think a good place to start on calculating the speed of the shockwave is by measuring the distance the shockwave travels and how long it takes to get there.

The shockwave can easily cover a portion of Times Square iirc

 

[Golden_Void]

It wouldn't work like that for game reasons. In game values aren't representative of the real game values at all, even though they're made with those values.

Example: We know a tank shell travels at mach 4.6. They're going to represent that much slower in the game. Same as Saints Row. The game specifically says the character is practically faster than a speeding bullet, and that they break the sound barrier, but if you do an in-game speed test, you're going to get subsonic results because that's how games represent speed.

While in-game, I've seen Greene's shockwave travel further than a tank missile did in slow motion, but it would be mostly unquantifiable and at the very least inaccurate to try and find her shockwave speed, which is why I based it on the tank shell, because its one of the most solid feats he has.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

But Times Square is a real place which has an actual area to measure. You could try to get an areal view of the shockwave area and compare it to a map of real life Times Square

 

[Golden_Void]

Yeah that's what I've been doing for some of the other feats in-game. I'll try that though.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Do you guys think they made an actual representation of the map there? To cover all sizes and what not? Actual question, I'm not sure if they were trying. Otherwise, I can probably do the same with other video games.

What is the basis for Alex's perception boosting? Logically he can but we don't know to what extent and can thus only use the actual feats he has. Example Cole's reaction 'early' was enough to perceive the spinning of a wind fan. Not to mention it has the benefit of being an ability that he had to actually unlock.

Alex reacting to tank shells is already pushing it since such a thing called "Aim dodging" already exists. I haven't seen him react to any tanks shooting any shells at him. This calc of yours although at first glance is sensible, is not enough. Whether it's calc stacking or not is another issue entirely imo but once you mix gameplay mechanics in it it becomes a bit silly.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Well in this interview with the designer of Prototype 2, he explains that P2 includes a more "condensed" New York, but make of that what you will.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Condensing new york is probably just restrictions on the game engine and data though. Unless there is an ingame reason given for a smaller Times Square, I would use the size of the real Times Square

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Well alrighty then

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Condense also means tighter and possibly smaller. It was unlikely he was considering that since it seems out off topic. Rather it makes more sense for it to be a smaller New York. But then again that's still a possibility.

 

[Golden_Void]

Do you guys think they made an actual representation of the map there? To cover all sizes and what not? Actual question, I'm not sure if they were trying. Otherwise, I can probably do the same with other video games.
What is the basis for Alex's perception boosting? Logically he can but we don't know to what extent and can thus only use the actual feats he has. Example Cole's reaction 'early' was enough to perceive the spinning of a wind fan. Not to mention it has the benefit of being an ability that he had to actually unlock.

Alex reacting to tank shells is already pushing it since such a thing called "Aim dodging" already exists. I haven't seen him react to any tanks shooting any shells at him. This calc of yours although at first glance is sensible, is not enough. Whether it's calc stacking or not is another issue entirely imo but once you mix gameplay mechanics in it it becomes a bit silly.

1. Yes it's based on the actual NYC. Amazing Spider-man is like this too (I'm pretty sure all NYC based games are), but some aspects of the maps are tweaked for legal/privacy/other reasons, but for all intents and purposes it's the same.

2. Devastators of the enemy (within range of damage) trigger this perception change, as well as when Alex launches his own. In cutscenes, it slowed when he was blown out of his apartment and he recovered while the fireball was still in the air, other examples I would have to check for.

3. Regarding aim-dodging, I don't think that's the case. In one of the cutscenes, he has a grenade launcher used against him, and he stares the guy down while its propelling, only blocking at the last second, he does the same thing when he allows a soldier with a rocket launcher to strike him to create a diversion.

Also, unlike P2 where every incoming explosive is laser guided, you would have no indication of anything coming at you in P1.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Please don't quote huge walls of texts. It's distracting.

Well that's fine by me. It confuses me but if it counts it counts then. I could probably apply the same to Seattle in Infamous Second Son then in that case.

It doesn't feel concrete aside from cinematic time. But then again it's not like I'm that against having his ability considering logically it should exist for him. That said we can't just add a calc based on how different the perspective is on those scenes since it would be confusing. With cutscenes in mind you'd probably get only something transonic or Faster than the eye.

Yes. He literally stared at the guy. However....

https://youtu.be/0B3lHfivQMQ?t=146

[The M406 40 mm HE (high explosive) grenades fired from the M79 travel at amuzzle velocity of 75 meters per second.]

For M203 is a grenade launcher it's around 270 meters per second.

That's the highest I found so far. So at best it's supersonic reactions. Also Alex performs a ridiculous amount of aim dodging. That's how he avoided the rocket blasts (almost) from his first fight with them. Also not to mention the fact that if we implement the idea that "Oh time didn't slow down for him during this scene so he reacted to this casually" would be inaccurate.

Funnily enough, I played both and know the brutality of the second half of the game. But just because we can't see any of those things firing at us doesn't mean it's not possible to aim dodge. People in movies do it all the time.

 

[Golden_Void]

Avoided what rocket blasts? If you're referring to the same one from that video you link, he tanked that. And I don't see how he aim dodges, considering every attack on him besides guns and grenade launchers are tracking. Using in-game feats he can dodge nearly everything.

"That said we can't just add a calc based on how different the perspective is on those scenes since it would be confusing."

I don't see the confusion.

"Oh time didn't slow down for him during this scene so he reacted to this casually" would be inaccurate.

Except many verses in fiction portray this. Characters reacting normally to super fast stuff, but when something crucial comes along everything is in slow motion and it shows the character utilizing their serious speed.

Hell, Cole has MHS speeds via fighting Kessler, and you can literally walk and aim dodge almost all of his attacks.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'm still pretty sure that all examples of the perception change are just there for the player's benefit.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

The chopper rocket when he first woke up and was chased by a helicopter. He literally aim dodged when he dodged sniper bullets from a chopper. Aim dodging is a fundamental ability in the first prototype game once you face the big guns. Using in game feats would also mean he dies to bullets.

See the issue is that this trailer doesn't show the perspective of Alex Mercer. I already conceded that it's a normal ability but it's ridiculous to think he could double it or something like that. There's no valid proof claiming he did this casually 100%. Is there a possibility? Yes. Is there a possibility he used the perception boost to react? Yes. Is there a possibility he didn't use it? also yes. But in the end, you need something more concrete to apply that. Also I would be more inclined to believe that that is a casual thing for him, if Alex had ever actually had a 'time slow effect' in a cutscene.

Yes. The guy who uses lightning as an attack has the attack speed of a lightning. Yes. You realize it's not the movement speed that applies but rather combat speed? And it's much more believable considering he uses actual lightning and the guy is a flash stepper/teleporter. Alex doesn't have the advantage of being called faster than a bullet.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Thank you Monarch

 

[Golden_Void]

If you're talking about the chopper missile when he first got his powers, then he tanked that one too.

I honestly don't see him aim dodging at all, but if using in game feats means he dies to bullets, then I can say using in game feats, he tanked a thermobaric explosion and the resulting building collapsing on top of him as he unlocked his first power, as well as surviving a nuke, at which point we can chalk bullet damage up to game-induced stupidity, since a thermobaric tank shell can kill you despite you tanking a thermo-explosion at the beginning of the game, and even being bulletproof in the game trailer while tanking anti-armor rounds.

Alex also never had any serious threats in a cutscene that required him to do so. The only thing really was seeing his perception slow from his apartment explosion where he recovered mid-fireball.

And yes I know he attacks with lightning, but that whole entire fight is nothing but aim dodge city. If anything, Kessler is the one with the reaction feats.

As far as Alex not being called faster than a bullet, at least in P1 that's possibly the case.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Weird. It happened in the PS3. Or is ti a graphics error.

Yes, so you see how ridiculous using GM and in game feats can be?

And that's not even possible to consider a cutscene.

• shakes head* I'll still say that the guy who can move fast enough to dodge lightning by moving into an entirely different location the moment it fired, is pretty damn fast.

What.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

He's saying that Kessler is the only one with the speed feat, even though Cole managed to react to Kessler several times, even after Kessler flung him away, knocking him down, and Cole still managed to react in time to both get up and engage with Kessler in a physical struggle.

I'm split on the aim dodging thing, but I still think the shockwaves feat is most important right now.

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

Gone way too off topic anyway. Either way I find it unlikely but oh well. Focus on that for now. Any progress on a calc?

 

[Golden_Void]

Even in another video, they're dodging out of the way before Kessler even shoots at them, and he still shoots in their old position, not their new one, though logically they should be avoiding it while being in the path of fire.

And even so, it doesn't change the fact that he still accomplished evading her shockwave under a slow perception where even tank shells appeared slow. Even if we were to quanitfy the feat, we would still have to find it under normal time. I'm replaying the game atm to get an aerial view.

 

[PTSOXMONKEY99]

Once again, we're talking about Cole matching Kessler, who can dodge Cole's lighting bolts, in reactions and combat. And it is possible to dodge the beam in game after it was fire. Also, with Precision, you can see the beam move in slow motion.

But we're getting off topic with this. This is a Prototype speed revision thread, not a inFAMOUS VS [PROTOTYPE] thread. (please leave those behind in 2011)

If even tank shells move in slow motion, then hell yeah that's quantifiable. The question is, a) is it a game mechanic thing and b) how slow is the shell moving? Does the shockwave out pace it? And by how much?

 

[Antvasima]

So, can anybody give a summary of the conclusions here? I am very tired and have a hard time focusing.