Reinhard vs Dio

[TacticalNuke002]

Warren, it was nice knowing you. It was nicer knowing that we can never be friends.

 

[Warren_Valion]

Warren, it was nice knowing you. It was nicer knowing that we can never be friends.

Indeed, I would never want to associate with those who possess minds whose lunacy has no bounds.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

 

[Warren_Valion]

 

[MrKingOfNegativity]

I actually have something of a love-hate relationship with Dio.

In Part 1, he's just a hate-sink villain who suddenly gains powers and becomes a dangerous enemy. Granted, that puts him above some other villains in anime who I'll avoid mentioning for the sake of sparing some feelings, but it also makes him very one-dimensional, especially compared to later stories which actually do have more complex villains.

In Part 3, he actually gets built up as a powerful villain who's nigh-impossible to stand up to, and when we finally see him after several dozen chapters that were basically Stand-User-of-the-Week fights, he absolutely delivers in that regard. But his time onscreen doesn't actually complexify his character that much if at all; it just builds him up as a more credible villain and makes his presence in the setting a lot more ominous and threatening compared to his Phantom Blood iteration. Beyond that, his personality improves a lot over the course of Part 3, but he still boils down to being evil for the sake of being evil and having that be his most defining trait besides his newfound charisma. And while "guy who's evil for the sake of it" ca be endearing (He wouldn't be the first villai I've liked who fits that descriptio), it often makes me wonder why Araki couldn't have given him better motivations in addition to upping his villain game. (Especially seeing as 90% of those villains I just mentioned actually do end up with several quirks and wrenches thrown into the archetypes they're shaped from)

Having said all of that...I know absolutely nothing about Reinhard as a character, because my one trip into the Masadaverse ended with me losing interest pretty early on. So I can't accurately judge whether or not he's better at what he does than Dio is.

(Note: I haven't actually read Part 7 yet, so I don't know anything about that version of him. I'm told by some that he's better written, but considering how hard I remember falling off after Part 6, I'm not in a huge rush to find out.)

 

[TriforcePower1]

(Note: I haven't actually read Part 7 yet, so I don't know anything about that version of him. I'm told by some that he's better written, but considering how hard I remember falling off after Part 6, I'm not in a huge rush to find out.)

Part 7 Dio is literally a different character. He still acts like a d*ck but now he has better reasons to do so. Part 6 did try to explain why he was doing what he was doing.

Also, Part 1, among all that bad stuff, indicates why Dio is evil quite easily. He lived in the criminal underworld of London. His father hated him, and Dio became uncaring of everything after his mother's death (probably beaten by her drunk husband), which we have seen was actually kind of kind, as we see at the start of Part 1. Basically, he's misguided person by his terrible father, quickly learnt that kindness only leads to death, and wanted to take revenge on his father by doing what he was unable to do (stealing the Joestar's fortune).

He apparently forgot all of this the moment he got the Stone Mask, though, so I can't really say he's a compelling and interesting character despite that

 

[TacticalNuke002]

Human Dio was a nuanced and flawed character for sure. Raised by that bastard Dario in the slums and having to withstand bad treatment from his father and other slum dwellers, he started to hate humanity. He knew that he was more intelligent and better than those people and developed a huge ego and superiority complex. He got the opportunity to turn his life around when his father died and sent him to the Joestars. He wanted to take control of the Joestar fortune so that his wealth and social status actually matched his perception of himself. To that end, he did various bad things to Jonathan and George. He burst out crying when Jonathan wrecked him for the first time because that was his first true experience of losing. Also, we see another aspect of his character when he mostly ignores the two drunkards insulting him, until they insult his mother, which triggers him into murdering them. There is a significant amount of character development of Dio during his human phase. He wasn't just evil for the sake of being evil initially.

Of course, everything gets thrown out of the window when he rejects his humanity.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I brought this up before in a thread but I found a really good character study/analysis of Dio that made me think of him in ways I hadn't before.

This is a good read but spoilers for Part 1,3, 5, and 6. (Kind of 7 too)

 

[The_Smashor]

All that gets thrown out of the window when Dio gets the mask Speedwagon tells him he's evil.

 

[Ogbunabali]

Speedwagon telling Dio he is evil and him putting on a mask is a very important moment in Dio's life and a very good character development for him.

 

[TacticalNuke002]

I brought this up before in a thread but I found a really good character study/analysis of Dio that made me think of him in ways I hadn't before.

This is a good read but spoilers for Part 1,3, 5, and 6. (Kind of 7 too)

This is amazingly well-written and entertaining to read.

I have always had a problem with Speedwagon labelling Dio as "Born Evil" cuz that's no way to dismiss someone's history in two words.

 

[DALOKA]

This is why, in my opinion, Dio seems much more human than Reinhard, and the conflict with him seems way more personal than Ren VS Reinhard.

 

[Paul_Frank]

Reinhards's conflict wasn't really with Ren it was with Mercurius

Ren was just used as a tool

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

But...wasn't Rein and Merc the best of friends? I mean, yeah they were warped but why'd they have conflict?

 

[Paul_Frank]

Because Reinhard only existed to kill mercurius

Mercurius since he mantled the throne or maybe even since Satanael was on the throne wanted to die because there was nothing unknown to him. This is why his desire was eternal recurrence so he could find the unknown. He eventually ran out of the unknown though and went back to wanting to die. Eventually he met Marie and wanted her to take the throne and in order to kill him and dispell the world of foreknowledge while letting Marie get the throne Reinhard was made as his apoptosis

 

[Warren_Valion]

This is why, in my opinion, Dio seems much more human than Reinhard.

That's the point though.

Reinhard isn't supposed to be human, he is supposed to be something beyond humanity - someone who is struggling with complete ennui at his sheer excellence in everything.

He is cursed with Foreknowledge in every aspect of his life - the sensation of Deja Vu, that what your doing is something you have already done a hundred, a thousand, a million times before.

Some quotes to help illustrate that:

"I led a life in which there was not a thing I could not do, not a rank I could not achieve, not an enemy I could not defeat, not a woman I could not bed, and no wealth I could not earn."

"I distanced myself from the thrill of men, labeling all as waste by the wayside as I passed through. I wished to love all and everything, yet none could withstand my love. Ah, why can't you endure my touch? If a mere graze upon your delicate skin sends you shattering to a myriad pieces, how can you hope to withstand my embrace? Such cruelty. Why must this world -from the tiniest blade of grass to the vastest of mountains- be so painfully fragile. So be it, then. My love shall take the form of destruction. I shall ravage so I can cherish. I adore the weak that bow before me, as well as the defeated that bend their knees. My love expands to the vassals that rebel, and those that mean me harm. I love all and everything. And so shall I lay waste to everything before me"

He's the epitome of perfection, but perfection is dreadful - it's boring, there is nothing that he can't accomplish with the smallest of efforts.

That's why he wants to become a god, so he can paint over the meaninglessness of his existence and not only create a world where he isn't perfect at anything and where there are challenges he has to try to overcome, but a world where there are mystrious delights just waiting to be discovered.

"To be precise, there are two things I want. One is the manifestation of a situation that I would find difficult to overcome even with all my power. The other is the unknown that lies beyond that, though I know not which one will come first. The world we live in is not meant for me. Therefore, I will create and unleash one where I belong. I will summon a mountain that is worth the journey then traverse it."

The point of Reinhard's character is to become more like that he envies, which he loves - Human.

 

[Warren_Valion]

But...wasn't Rein and Merc the best of friends? I mean, yeah they were warped but why'd they have conflict?

Read Rea's route.

 

[DALOKA]

And i agree with your statement about Reinhard, Warren. That's why he's still a great character, and he's the number 1 reason why i've read and finished the visual novel really. But i prefer the more human-like monster and flawed being that Dio is.