Regeneration From Energy

[Flashlight237]

So when I asked about whether regenerating from a photon, which doesn't have mass and may as well just be energy as far as we're aware, I was told it'd be considered High regeneration. At the same time, reading DarkDragonMedeus' and Da3ggman's responses also brought something else up... We haven't accounted for regenerating from straight up energy, which things like light basically is.

Every tier up to High picked out elements that have mass. Low-High is liquid mass, Mid-High is ash or gaseous mass, and High is molecular, atoms, and particles. The most conventional particles; photons, neutrons, and electrons; evidently have mass, yet there are some tinier entities that don't have mass.

After that, we jump straight from things that have mass to things that neither have mass nor energy, with Low-Godly involving some weird metaphysical stuff like souls and thoughts. Nothing accounting for energy.

The easiest approach to the quandary would be adding energy to High, which solves the matter with a couple sentences, but at the same time doesn't exactly account for the complexity of things like energy or quantum nonsense like strings.

The other option, which I think fits the idea of regenerating from energy better without getting to metaphysical nonsense is a new tier. This may be seen as finicky to others, but I think the difference between the wiki's current listing and explanations for both "High" and "Low-Godly" it's significant enough to warrant the new tier addition. The explanation I've came up with is as such.

False-Godly: The ability to regenerate from concepts that either do not have mass or are intangible, yet remain physical. Things like light, heat, energy, charge, and quantum mechanics including strings and branes fall under this category.

I have made a draft profile of one example of this concept under the new Regeneration tier, which is displayed as such: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Flashlight237/Draft_Profile:_Glow_Pikmin

I called the new tier "False Godly" because while things like light and energy aren't exactly "matter," they don't fall under Godly's requirement for regeneration from something non-physical either.

That's my proposal for accounting for stuff like energy in regeneration. Hopefully this gets through.

 

[TheGreatJedi13]

Isn't Photons considered as Boson which is still a subatomic particle

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This just sounds like low-godly.

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not sure if a new level between High and Low-Godly is needed. Also, it used to be "Regenerating from pure energy" was listed as an example of High regeneration, but Antvasima removed it due to not wanting to get mixed up with the ability to Mass-Energy convert themselves for teleportation purposes. But if something destroys the body until it is reduced to pure energy, and then the energy reforms into matter, that is still considered High regeneration.

 

[Antvasima]

Medeus is correct here as far as I am aware.

 

[Flashlight237]

Not sure if a new level between High and Low-Godly is needed. Also, it used to be "Regenerating from pure energy" was listed as an example of High regeneration, but Antvasima removed it due to not wanting to get mixed up with the ability to Mass-Energy convert themselves for teleportation purposes. But if something destroys the body until it is reduced to pure energy, and then the energy reforms into matter, that is still considered High regeneration.

Thinking about it more, on one hand, I was also on the same level as you with not being sure if it's exactly necessary. On the other hand, I feel the removal, while in good faith, was not the best way to handle such an issue and I think it could've handled immateral-yet-physical concepts like energy and strings better. Now there isn't exactly a hard border between High and Low-Godly because of it (unlike other tiers where there IS), with one member in this thread even thinking regeneration from energy is Low Godly. I think this is best explained through an infographic.

I divided the infograph into three categories: material and physical (atoms, subatomic particles and such), immaterial yet physical (light, heat, energy, quantum crap), and immaterial and nonphysical (souls and metaphysical crap). The key is as follows

• Red: High Regen
• Yellow: False Godly Regen (proposed)
• Blue: Low Godly Regen

If what you're saying is correct, it would've been the first set of bars (red, red, blue), but because energy got nixed from the regen chart, it turned into the second bar and thus the Regeneration page's current handling of things (red, white, blue; where the lack of clarity is marked as "WTF?????"). Because of the unclarity, I had one guy in this thread coming in thinking it's more like the fourth set of bars (red, blue, blue). My proposal intends to better clarify the ordeal of immaterial-yet-physical regeneration by better defining the borders between such entities, hence the third set of bars (red, yellow, blue).

Given the infographs and the writing presented, can you see where and how things got spotty?

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Thinking about it more, on one hand, I was also on the same level as you with not being sure if it's exactly necessary. On the other hand, I feel the removal, while in good faith, was not the best way to handle such an issue and I think it could've handled immateral-yet-physical concepts like energy and strings better. Now there isn't exactly a hard border between High and Low-Godly because of it (unlike other tiers where there IS), with one member in this thread even thinking regeneration from energy is Low Godly. I think this is best explained through an infographic.

I divided the infograph into three categories: material and physical (atoms, subatomic particles and such), immaterial yet physical (light, heat, energy, quantum crap), and immaterial and nonphysical (souls and metaphysical crap). The key is as follows

• Red: High Regen
• Yellow: False Godly Regen (proposed)
• Blue: Low Godly Regen

If what you're saying is correct, it would've been the first set of bars (red, red, blue), but because energy got nixed from the regen chart, it turned into the second bar and thus the Regeneration page's current handling of things (red, white, blue; where the lack of clarity is marked as "WTF?????"). Because of the unclarity, I had one guy in this thread coming in thinking it's more like the fourth set of bars (red, blue, blue). My proposal intends to better clarify the ordeal of immaterial-yet-physical regeneration by better defining the borders between such entities, hence the third set of bars (red, yellow, blue).

Given the infographs and the writing presented, can you see where and how things got spotty?

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Phoenks]

I think regeneration from energy should be Low-Godly as well.

We already considered "meta-physical energy" to be Low-Godly, which includes things like magical or spiritual particles and ectoplasm. I think energy particles should be considered an equivalent.

I always thought Low-Godly simplified was "regeneration after all physical matter has been destroyed." Which means regeneration from something like energy, which isn't matter, after all matter had been destroyed, would qualify.

The problem lies in the current definition of Low-Godly being more vague, I would say. "Physical destruction of body" is a little less specific than what it could be.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I think regeneration from energy should be Low-Godly as well.

We already considered "meta-physical energy" to be Low-Godly, which includes things like magical or spiritual particles and ectoplasm. I think energy particles should be considered an equivalent.

I always thought Low-Godly simplified was "regeneration after all physical matter has been destroyed." Which means regeneration from something like energy, which isn't matter, after all matter had been destroyed, would qualify.

The problem lies in the current definition of Low-Godly being more vague, I would say. "Physical destruction of body" is a little less specific than what it could be.

It depends on case by case; it's it's just an explosion that turned the entire body into pure energy (Such as a mass-energy conversion that happened via pure destruction and NOT self transmutation) and they regenerated, it would be High regeneration. But if it's some sort of Spiritual energy is what they regenerated from, then Low-Godly works.

 

[Flashlight237]

I knew this would lead to a wonky debate.

 

[Phoenks]

It depends on case by case; it's it's just an explosion that turned the entire body into pure energy (Such as a mass-energy conversion that happened via pure destruction and NOT self transmutation) and they regenerated, it would be High regeneration. But if it's some sort of Spiritual energy is what they regenerated from, then Low-Godly works.

Why would that be High, though? If Low-Godly is supposed to be regeneration from the destruction of physical matter (of a body), which I believe it is supposed to be, then your example should work as Low-Godly as well.

 

[Da3ggman]

From the regeneration page for Low Godly:

The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body

Since photons are accepted to not have any physical mass, there would be nothing physical to regenerate from; regenerating from light, as weird as it might seem, fits the bill perfectly IMO.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Why would that be High, though? If Low-Godly is supposed to be regeneration from the destruction of physical matter (of a body), which I believe it is supposed to be, then your example should work as Low-Godly as well.

If I blow a large body of matter but reduced it to pure physical energy (Which takes an E = m * c^2 type of calculation), it would still be physical energy and thus not technically erased. Spiritual energy such as variations of Ki or other types of UES aren't really physical but spiritual energies that tend to have all the powers and none of the weaknesses of traditional energy.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

This sounds like a ship of Theseus dilemma. If you are turned into photons, those photons are scattered and will travel space until they hit something and are absorbed and remitted as different energy, reflected, refracted etc. At what point do those photons stop being the person they once wore?

 

[Flashlight237]

This sounds like a ship of Theseus dilemma. If you are turned into photons, those photons are scattered and will travel space until they hit something and are absorbed and remitted as different energy, reflected, refracted etc. At what point do those photons stop being the person they once wore?

Good point. I'll link the article for further reading: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

 

[Da3ggman]

If I blow a large body of matter but reduced it to pure physical energy (Which takes an E = m * c^2 type of calculation), it would still be physical energy and thus not technically erased. Spiritual energy such as variations of Ki or other types of UES aren't really physical but spiritual energies that tend to have all the powers and none of the weaknesses of traditional energy.

Hmm, good point. Though, I still think that being reduced to only physical energy is different enough from the current High Regeneration to warrant something else.

 

[Da3ggman]

Bump

 

[DontTalkDT]

Regenerating from energy is, by current standard, supposed to be part of High. "Raw" energy, like photons, appears in the form of quanta which fall into the subatomic particle category. Nobody said we are talking exclusively about subatomic particles with mass, after all.
If you want to make that more explicit, I suppose you can just explicitely add "energy" to the list of things High can be.
An extra tier seems unnecessary, in any case.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Regenerating from energy is, by current standard, supposed to be part of High. "Raw" energy, like photons, appears in the form of quanta which fall into the subatomic particle category. Nobody said we are talking exclusively about subatomic particles with mass, after all.
If you want to make that more explicit, I suppose you can just explicitely add "energy" to the list of things High can be.
An extra tier seems unnecessary, in any case.

Can I add something to the definition of High Regeneration to clarify that?

 

[Flashlight237]

Regenerating from energy is, by current standard, supposed to be part of High. "Raw" energy, like photons, appears in the form of quanta which fall into the subatomic particle category. Nobody said we are talking exclusively about subatomic particles with mass, after all.
If you want to make that more explicit, I suppose you can just explicitely add "energy" to the list of things High can be.

That is pretty much what DarkDragonMedeus said, but like he said, energy was listed as part of High like you have said here, but was removed as some sort of "avoid confusion" measure. Of course that led to the debate here.

From what I can tell, those who argue for High Regen basically say that energy (ex. light) is still considered physical and thus would fall under that umbrella. At the same time, those who argue that it should fall under "Low Godly" believe that at that point, you're no longer matter, but energy, which doesn't necessarily make a body in on itself.

Now, you did bring up quanta, which I haven't seen prior, and the funny thing about it is... Quanta isn't necessarily sub-atomic particles, or really anything specific for that matter. It's basically just a bare minimum... Or at least that's how Wikipedia introduced it. I'm a little busy right now, so I couldn't check: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum

Really, my proposal of "False Godly" is more of a happy medium with how split the debacle is (including how it's a Ship of Theseus issue).

 

[ImmortalDread]

Can I add something to the definition of High Regeneration to clarify that?

No, just add “energy” to possible uses of “high”. I don't think anything beyond this is necessary.

As for my stance here; I am with DT.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

No, just add "energy" to possible uses of “high”. I don't think anything beyond this solves this thread.

As for my stance here; I am with DT.

I don't understand.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I don't understand.

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles.

to

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, energy or sub-atomic particles.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

to

Done. What remains to be done here?

Regeneration

Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans. It has several different levels that range in potency from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[ImmortalDread]

Nothing I suppose. It can be closed unless there are objections.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Nothing I suppose. It can be closed unless there are objections.

Flashlight doesn't seem satisfied.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Flashlight doesn't seem satisfied.

It appears that the thread has been declined. DDM and DT are not in agreement with the proposed new tier. However, they have the freedom to express their objections. Therefore, my suggestion is to keep the thread open for a few days until additional input is received from the staff members.

 

[Flashlight237]

It appears that the thread has been declined. DDM and DT are not in agreement with the proposed new tier. However, they have the freedom to express their objections. Therefore, my suggestion is to keep the thread open for a few days until additional input is received from the staff members.

I'm not in full agreement or disagreement myself. I'm more concerned with the wonkiness of the topic at hand than I am picking sides.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I'm not in full agreement or disagreement myself. I'm more concerned with the wonkiness of the topic at hand than I am picking sides.

What should we do with this thread?

 

[Flashlight237]

What should we do with this thread?

I'd say go with Dread's idea of leaving it up for a few days and see if others would like to weigh in and see where this leans.

 

[Flashlight237]

What should we do with this thread?

It's been four days with no support or objections since, so feel free to close it now.

 

[Antvasima]

I tried to improve on the wording somewhat. Is this fine, or can it be misunderstood or give exaggerated statistics?

Regeneration

Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans. It has several different levels that range in potency from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Flashlight237]

I tried to improve on the wording somewhat. Is this fine, or can it be misunderstood or give exaggerated statistics?

Regeneration

Regeneration, often referred to as a healing factor, is the ability to passively heal oneself from wounds at an accelerated rate, with many characters proving capable of regenerating from wounds that would be lethal to normal humans. It has several different levels that range in potency from...

vsbattles.fandom.com

All good.

 

[Antvasima]

I meant that should I switch the word "energy" to "energy particles" instead, in order to not potentially mix up the theme and scale too much here.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I meant that should I switch the word "energy" to "energy particles" instead, in order to not potentially mix up the theme and scale too much here.

I changed it to "physical energy units" to cover for that. If that's fine, you can close this.

 

[Antvasima]

It seems fine to me.

I will close this thread then. Thank you to you and all others who helped out here.