Reflections on the Attack Reflection ability page

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Permission to post here granted to me by Random-Helper323. Have a soundtrack.

In the distant and war-torn past of a few hours ago, there was a databasing-brained kerfuffle about if characters using their swords consistently and reliably (not just some freak accident) to reflect attacks from gunfire counted as Attack Reflection. Reportedly this sort of confusion has come up before, too. Courtesy of DaReaperMan, here's an example of the sword-based Attack Reflection application that's as clear-cut as it gets: Genji from Overwatch.

Obviously reflecting attacks counts as Attack Reflection whether or not, say, the deployed sword of the user doing it came with an enclosed instruction book saying "this sword is made expressly for Attack Reflection!" It is also worth considering that stats & even generally high skill alone aren't necessarily enough to entail the specific skill to reflect a bullet with a sword if never remotely demonstrated, just as not every character with Superhuman Physical Characteristics can perform Acrobatics, so perhaps we shouldn't assume that being able to perform such a technique applies to every blade-wielding Supersonic+ character with Weapon Mastery. Therefore, feat-displaying characters such as Genji earn the Attack Reflection ability as opposed to it being always assumed in Weapon Mastery.

(No point in a "limited" prefix since common sense recognizes that every ability is limited & a good citation should sketch the limits on the profile anyway.)

But the (minor) problem is, there's been some confusion resulting from the current state of the Attack Reflection page as it is has a note that suggests that reflecting attacks as a subset of another power isn't enough to earn the Attack Reflection power on a page, especially if the power/ability isn't specifically tailor-made exclusive for attack reflection purposes only.

Personally, I think Attack Reflection should be listed for every character who has demonstrated consistently & reliably reflecting attacks, whatever the means and limits. Not every Telekinesis user necessarily can use Telekinesis to catch bullets, nor can the ones who can catch bullets necessarily reflect every attack ever, but the ones who do the thing onscreen should get the ability for it regardless of degree. Characters who logically can reflect attacks via other powers but haven't directly displayed it being a case-by-case basis to add Attack Reflection to, default being displayers-only. And there are plenty of other powers listed as subsets of other powers, such as every Plot Manipulation user being a Reality Warping user yet not necessarily vice versa. The miniscule amount of redundancy is worth it for clarity in Attack Reflection, too.

My proposals, which entail a bit of editing on the Attack Reflection page itself but little-to-no further editing on profiles as they are:

• Nix that one note prohibiting listing Attack Reflection as a subset of other abilities. In ability descriptions on profiles, it would look like "Attack Reflection via Telekinesis/Weapon Mastery" or "Weapon Mastery (Attack Reflection)," etc, being briefly explained and sourced in any case: the usual. Most relevant profiles already do this correctly anyway; the ability page itself just needs to be freed of unnecessary qualifiers.
• Add a profile with demonstrated feats of reflecting bullets with a sword -- such as Genji (Overwatch) -- to the list of examples on the Attack Reflection page for clarity to preclude confusion.
• Specify if the reflected attack has to be returned to sender to qualify, or if reflecting the attack to the side is fine. "Reflection" does imply that moreso than "redirection" or "deflection" but I personally think keeping the current used application of reflecting the attack at all is fine, like how a mirror may "reflect" light from a laser into another direction. Profiles should have examples of usage, anyway, so people can surmise from the examples if in a specific case if the reflected attack can likely be returned by the reflector to its original sender.

Vote tally for my general proposal (if alternate proposals are raised and seriously considered, then I'll edit this OP to indicate as such):
Agreed:
Disagreed:
Neutral:

 

[Random-Helper323]

One way or the other, I do think this ability and its standards should be made clear. I've seen other disagreement about what qualified and what didn't.

 

[RaikiKurohane99]

I personally think using something like a weapon to consistency reflect attacks should qualify, but we should differentiate it from other forms of reflection-type abilities.

One way to go about this would be to add a Possible Uses section, and differentiate between attack reflection through physical means and by magical means.

On the other hand, I think it should be a requirement that the attack is being sent back to the attack, as otherwise can also just be achieved by a super-high durability (throwing a rock at a dense steal block will either crush the rock or make it bounce off, but obviously that isn't a special ability)

Deflection with weapons per say, can also be done by skills. But I agree that Reflection (back to the sender) is a bit special.

 

[Qawsedf234]

But the (minor) problem is, there's been some confusion resulting from the current state of the Attack Reflection page as it is has a note that suggests that reflecting attacks as a subset of another power isn't enough to earn the Attack Reflection power on a page, especially if the power/ability isn't specifically tailor-made exclusive for attack reflection purposes only

The page is not saying that

Attack Reflection as an ability must refer to a power in which a major or direct aspect is dedicated to reflecting or deflecting some form of action. Reflection/deflection as a secondary power, such as using Telekinesis to redirect something, Elemental Control to redirect its respective element, or using a barrier that happens to cause ricochet on projectiles, would not be considered as Attack Reflection, as those aspects are secondary effects of a primary power.

What this means is that a power or ability must intentionally reflect an attack. Captain America's shield is attack Reflection, while Manchester Black's barrier isn't. Genji's parry has the direct ability to reflect attacks, it is not a secondary feature of the blade.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

[A] power or ability must intentionally reflect an attack. Captain America's shield is attack Reflection, while Manchester Black's barrier isn't. Genji's parry has the direct ability to reflect attacks, it is not a secondary feature of the blade.

I thought that the primary feature of the blade was to, y'know, cut things. With reflecting attacks being a secondary feature that he can do with it and that we see him do with it. And I don't know much about this Manchester Black bloke, but if we see his barrier reflect attacks then he should have Attack Reflection on his profile & if we never see it reflect attacks then he shouldn't have Attack Reflection on his profile.

Again, the goal here is to drop the confusing language in the current Attack Reflection ability page by focusing on "what we see the thing do" moreso than the "dedicated to" aspect (which is a bit too subjective) or even "what the thing theoretically can do" beyond reason. If it does the thing, it gets the thing. You guys can give yourselves the workload of sub-sub-sub-categorizing from there for 2300+ profiles if you want, but I think just keeping up what we do in practice on profiles (have an example showcasing the use of the ability so one can infer its extents) and making the one ability page a teensy bit better-worded is preferable.

 

[Qawsedf234]

thought that the primary feature of the blade was to, y'know, cut things.

A fictional weapon can have multiple primary or direct functions. Attack Reflection/Deflection requires that a main property of the pbject, ability, or character is to intentionally redirect something else. A bullet bouncing off Superman's head isn't attack reflection, it's just a byproduct of his durability. Genji is intentionally trying to redirect an attack.

And I don't know much about this Manchester Black bloke, but if we see his barrier reflect attacks then he should have Attack Reflection on his profile & if we never see it reflect attacks then he shouldn't have Attack Reflection on his profile.

The point of the barrier is that it just acts a shield that happens to cause attacks to move around it. It doesn't intentionally redirect things in the same way Smash Bros' Fox's shield does. The point of the last revision in the page is that the ability in question must intentionally deflect/reflect something or be listed as a core property. Just bouncing off something isn't enough of a qualification.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

snip

Ok, if those are the traits you want to go with, then the page should have those definitions stated more clearly. As it is, it sounds as if, say, a telekinesis user can never ever have Attack Reflection due to it being a subset of some other power: "Reflection/deflection as a secondary power, such as using Telekinesis to redirect something [...] would not be considered as Attack Reflection, as those aspects are secondary effects of a primary power," in addition to being redundant, sounds overly restrictive. And there are no listed examples of it being performed via weaponry despite that being a common application, and it isn't certain if the reflected attacks in question have to always be returned to sender or if they can just be (intentionally) reflected to the side or generally reflected in a way that may or may not hit the original sender.

Relisted below, the OP's bullet points should be addressed by some light re-writing on the page in order to preclude any further confusion caused by the currently vaguely-worded ability page. Though, y'know, not a huge priority since it isn't as if a fuss arises from this on a daily basis, just a side task.

Spoiler: Fixes

My proposals, which entail a bit of editing on the Attack Reflection page itself but little-to-no further editing on profiles as they are:

• Nix that one note prohibiting listing Attack Reflection as a subset of other abilities. In ability descriptions on profiles, it would look like "Attack Reflection via Telekinesis/Weapon Mastery" or "Weapon Mastery (Attack Reflection)," etc, being briefly explained and sourced in any case: the usual. Most relevant profiles already do this correctly anyway; the ability page itself just needs to be freed of unnecessary qualifiers.
• Add a profile with demonstrated feats of reflecting bullets with a sword -- such as Genji (Overwatch) -- to the list of examples on the Attack Reflection page for clarity to preclude confusion.
• Specify if the reflected attack has to be returned to sender to qualify, or if reflecting the attack to the side is fine. "Reflection" does imply that moreso than "redirection" or "deflection" but I personally think keeping the current used application of reflecting the attack at all is fine, like how a mirror may "reflect" light from a laser into another direction. Profiles should have examples of usage, anyway, so people can surmise from the examples if in a specific case if the reflected attack can likely be returned by the reflector to its original sender.