[Re:Zero] Transcendents Scale to Reinhard

[Gigi_4_life]

Scaling Cecilus and Halibel to Reinhard​

This CRT explores the scaling of Cecilus and Halibel in relation to Reinhard, analyzing their feats from the story and incorporating information from the Q&As.

Cecilus is stated to be equal in skill to Reinhard

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 57

Simply put, the reason for the collapse of the loot house was that an ordinary, blunt blade had found a wielder who could fulfill its true purpose as a sword, and thus had it been swung.

If that was the case, then.

If the Sword Saint could achieve that, there was no reason why an equally skilled wielder could not do the same.

Cecilus is stated to be faster than Reinhard

Spoiler: SPOILER: MOST RECENT Q&A

Q: Considering the jump from the moon to the earth, wouldn’t Reinhard’s speed be several thousand times the speed of sound, allowing him to orbit around the Re:ZERO world in a few seconds? Who is the character closest in speed to Reinhard? How much of a difference in speed is there between Reinhard and the character closest to his speed?
A: That’s a smart question. However, since the Re:ZERO world is not Earth, we don’t know if the distance to the moon is the same as it is to Earth. It might be super close! (laughs) I did that scene with Reinhard kicking the moon back because I thought it would be fun, so I didn’t think too much about the specifics… But purely speaking of “who is the character closest in speed to Reinhard?” Cecilus would be faster than Reinhard. While he’s fast, Reinhard would probably be stronger if they fought. Speed and strength have different correlations.

Halibel and Cecilus are considered to be comparable to Reinhard by both the narration and the world at large

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 6 CHAPTER 27

Ram:「If we put confidence in Barusu and Emilia-sama’s words then our enemy is of the same caliber as the Knight Reinhard… If as said they truly are equal to the world’s strongest man, then there’s one that’s at least close to his level in every part of the world.」

Subaru:「So essentially Reinhard is the strongest in the Kingdom and each of the other three countries have their own strongest.」

Ram:「In the Vollachian Empire there’s the First General, the『Blue Lightning』Cecilus Segmunt; in the Holy Kingdom of Gusteko there’s the『Crazed Prince』; and in the Kararagi City States there’s the『Admirer』Halibel. But each have different traits to them.」

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 7 CHAPTER 29

Subaru: [Then the one strong enough to be on par with Reinhardt, is Cecilus, right? It’s common sense that we go for that person… wouldn’t he be enough?]

One among the four strongest human beings, those who had made a name for themselves in the Four Great Countries.

If Cecilus, who had been mentioned to be amongst these four, was a person considered to be on par with Reinhard, then it would be very much as if the outcome of the battle would be decided by that person alone.

In fact, that Reinhard could win even if he fought everyone in the Kingdom, was an extraordinary expectation and view that had sprouted in Subaru.

So, naturally, he held such sort of presupposition for Cecilus, who was Reinhard’s equal.

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 70

Even though Subaru was aware of this as information, two of the world’s strongest individuals were unbeatable in ways that went beyond his simple imagination. In fact, with them he felt like he could not lose, just like having Reinhard on his side.

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 74

Through the countless cracks formed throughout its body, it began to shine, and in the next moment, aiming in every direction with quite literally no blind spots, a rain of light―― nay, an undodgeable mist of light was unleashed.

Supposing its nature was that of raindrops, then the Sword Saint, the Blue Lightning, the Admirer would all be able to evade it.

But, in the case it was that of particles of mist, then even those transcendent beings would have trouble evading.

Cecilus can kill every Divine General in Vollachia combined

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 7 CHAPTER 29

Subaru: [In fact, if they’re not popular can we leave them alone…?]

Abel: [That is also a problem. That person has the ability to change the course of the war all by his lonesome, depending on the situation. Even if we are capable of securing all of the remaining Divine Generals, there is a good chance that he alone could take my head.]

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 57

Chisha: [Indeed, I accept that your answer is so. At the same time, if you stand on His Excellency’s side, then my prospects for victory are essentially nonexistent. Even were I to have Arakiya or General First-Class Olbart… No, even were I to have all of the Nine Divine Generals other than you on my side, it would likely be no match for you.]

Cecilus made Reinhard realize that he wasn't alone as the strongest and made him enjoy their rematch (which ended in a tie)

Spoiler: SPOILER: EX 4

"After that, I felt I had to teach the Sword Saint something myself. I had to show him that he wasn't alone, either. That I was there. And there might even be others who stand with us. That's what I wanted him to understand."
There had been no time for a relaxed chat between Reinhard and Cecilus. Thus, the Volakian general could not hope he had communicated as clearly as he might have with words. However, he was also confident that he had most certainly conveyed his feelings across, at least in some measure--- for Reinhard, Dragon Sword drawn, seemed to be enjoying himself as he battled the man in the blue kimono.

Spoiler: SPOILER: SWORD IDENTITY PART 2

Arakiya: [Have you ever done anything General First-Class-like?]

Cecilus: [I have! With the dignity of the Vollachian Empire at stake, I fought a one-on-one battle with the Kingdom’s strongest, the Sword Saint!]

Arakiya: [I heard you got your ass kicked.]

Cecilus: [Well, when we fought again in the Kingdom it was a draw!]

Cecilus has the potential to reach Reid's level of skill

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 38

Thus, through Rowan Segmunt’s diligent efforts, a vessel to reach the Heavenly Sword, Cecilus Segmunt, was born, and Rowan’s duty was fulfilled.

Seeing his child soaking in his first bath, giggling as he gazed upon the drawn blade pressed against his neck, Rowan was released from the binds that had tied him down for a long, long time.

When a Stargazer ascertained that their commandment had been fulfilled, they would be liberated from the role bestowed upon them.

Afterwards, what would overcome the mind was a loss of understanding for the sense of values that they had calmly obeyed until then for no reason at all, even distorting their beliefs and convictions.

Of course, the same thing happened to Rowan.

In order to fulfill his commandment, he had been desperate to create a child with the talent to reach the Heavenly Sword; upon seeing the child born at the end of all of it, the moment he realized he had accomplished it, it did not matter to him anymore.

As a result, what remained was his son who was recognized for his potential to reach the Heavenly Sword, and his very self, who had lost sight of his goal to reach the Heavenly Sword, and had squandered the prime years of his life for the sake of others.

After seeing kid Cecilus fight, Emilia thinks he can become as strong as Reid

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 7 CHAPTER 104

With a light sound, its scales were penetrated, and the Cloud Dragon was flicked to the left and to the right. Due to the sword dance, it was deprived of its vision, it was deprived of its freedom, it was deprived of any opportunity to counterattack.

Despite being a wee one still, Cecilus’s skills were absurd.

Both in terms of handling her body and weapons, Emilia had believed herself to have become quite respectable, but this was a dimension to which she could not compare herself to. Perhaps he even had the potential to become as absurdly strong as Reid, whom she had happened to meet at Pleiades Watchtower.

Reinhard and Cecilus share the feat of dodging rain

Spoiler: SPOILER: VOLUME 19

In an instant, the world around Reinhard was engulfed and annihilated by the droplets. Subaru was speechless as he watched the sheer destruction that reshaped the landscape before his very eyes. But Emilia squeezed his tense hand.
"It's okay."
That was enough to assure him that Reinhard was still safe even if it seemed all but impossible. And sure enough, Reinhard emerged in one piece, still shooting right at Regulus.

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 57

It was a domain undoubtedly tessellating with Death itself, and it was the kind of intense battle where one would have to dodge raindrops amidst a storm――,

Cecilus: [If that’s what’s needed! Be it drops of rain or grains of sand, let’s dodge them!]

The eleven lines separating life and death ran amok, one more made its return, making it twelve lines, and evading those, evading, evadinginginginginginginginginging――.

Spoiler: SPOILER: SWORD IDENTITY PART 1

Cecilus: [I can even dodge the rain if I really try, y’know.]

They also both have insane intuition

Spoiler: SPOILER: REINHARD BIRTHDAY Q&A

Q: I hate studying!!! By the way, is Reinhard’s intelligence maxed as well?

A: His intelligence is normal, but his intuition is incredible, so even when taking a test, he’ll get full marks from giving answering normally. Even if it’s not multiple choice.

Spoiler: SPOILER: REINHARD BIRTHDAY Q&A

Q: If Reinhard played chess or shogi or go, is he still the strongest? And if he played go against Subaru-kun, could he win?

A: It's not because he's smart, but because he knows where to put his piece, that he's the strongest, but he himself really hates winning like that, so he doesn't like to play games like that. It makes him feel like he's making fun of his opponent. Hence, whether in go or chess or shogi, Subaru would get utterly defeated.

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 36

Cecilus: [I’m not particular over the number one-hundred-and-one. One-hundred-and-two, one-hundred-and-three, or even two-hundred would be fine! You’d lose a hundred times out of a hundred to that Cyclops Tribe guy. But what if you did it a thousand times, ten-thousand times, or a hundred-thousand times? Quite literally, you might draw a one in ten-thousand chance. You drew that right at the start. Am I wrong?]

Al: [――Hk.]

The deception that he was remaining silent as he focused on catching his breath, had reached its limit.

Within Al’s steel helmet, the expression that Cecilus could not see had warped; he feared Cecilus from the bottom of his heart. That insight, speech, and conduct, even Al could not comprehend what in the world they were.

By the way Cecilus was speaking, he had mostly correctly guessed the Authority that Al possessed. And that was not through logic, but rather an understanding through guesswork, so to speak.

Spoiler: SPOILER: BROTHERHOOD OF PLEIADES PART 3

Cecilus: [Well now let’s see, I wonder if Boss’s “True Sight” will be able to overcome my whimsy?]

Just how much did he know? Flashing his white teeth, Cecilus spouted a loathsome remark.

In the truest sense, he had pierced the crux of Subaru’s Return by Death―― The fact that it seemed like he was even doing that by instinct, was Cecilus’s most troublesome quality.

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 41

Cecilus: [If that’s the case, even if we go to the trouble of hiding, they may suddenly send their forces against us. ――I don’t think it’s such a good idea to kill too many enemies.]

Al: [You said that earlier. The reason being…]

Cecilus: [A hunch, as I said earlier.]

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 9

Boy: [Oh, is it possible that it’s strange for me to be here? If you perhaps think that one of your allies disobeyed you and spoke about it or something, that would be a needless worry! I don’t really know why, but I just came all the way here on a hunch after all!]

Spoiler: SPOILER: THE LAND OF WOLVES / DEATH UNTO THE WEAK, NO MERCY 12

ーーAs a matter of fact, this was not the first time that Chisha and the other soldiers had been deployed to subjugate dissidents, only for them to have already been annihilated before they could clash. It was the fourth instance of such an occurrence.

Having uncovered the presence of dissidents within the Abellux Domain, the troops dispatched to subjugate them were beaten to the punch. That had happened on three occasions in the past two months, and this time marked the fourth instanceーー,

Boy: [You guys laid a trap. The people acting as an opposing force were something like former criminals this time. By deliberately giving criminals captured in the domain weapons and equipment and sending them out, you created a group of fugitives. Then, you sent soldiers to subjugate the dissidents that you yourselves created. ーーIt was in order to lure me out!]

Chisha: […I certainly did not think you had read that far into the situation.]

Boy: [It wasn’t anything more than just reading the synopsis. Are you the one who wrote this? Or was it perhaps the “Miracle of Abellux”, His Excellency Vincent Abellux?]

Halibel scales to Cecilus

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 15

Subaru: [――! Hey, do you know about Ceci?]

Halibel: [Hm? Oh, I do know him, yeah? After all, he came ta try ‘n kill me once. Tho’ for some reason, after throwin’ down for a bit, he said somethin’ like “Seems like the conclusion shall not be now!” ‘n he went back home.]

Spoiler: SPOILER: ARC 8 CHAPTER 66

???: [That’s why there’s people who’re more motivated than me flyin’ around. So long as they ain’t stronger than me, I guess there ain’t no problem.]

???: [People stronger than Halibel-san…]

Halibel: [The only one who’s absolutely stronger than me’s the Kingdom’s Sword Saint. That ‘un aside, it depends on compatibility ‘n the circumstances.]

Characters that get upgraded:
Cecilus: He should be the same as his wrath if key (high 6A in base and 5C with his swords)
Halibel: He should at least scale to Cecilus and Reinhard in speed and skill

Characters that get downgraded:
Theresia: She should have a speed downgrade due to no longer scaling to Cecilus (we can discuss who she scales to in another speed thread)
Prime Wilhelm: same as Theresia


Credits: @SatellaTheWoE and @Zabazab for helping me out with this CRT

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Cant wait for this disaster

 

[VortechsTG]

While we're at it, we need to downgrade Theresia and anyone she scales to to superhuman speed because it takes her two seconds to complete a 50 meter dash.

Spoiler: Spoiler: Theresia 2018 Q&A

Q: Around how many seconds would it take for Thearesia to run the 50m dash?

A: It's difficult to say about the stronger characters in such a story world, but she'd be around the two second mark, wouldn't she?

I think any characters significantly slower like those who scale to old Wilhelm should be considered peak human.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

While we're at it, we need to downgrade Theresia and anyone she scales to to superhuman speed because it takes her two seconds to complete a 50 meter dash.

Spoiler: Spoiler: Theresia 2018 Q&A

Q: Around how many seconds would it take for Thearesia to run the 50m dash?

A: It's difficult to say about the stronger characters in such a story world, but she'd be around the two second mark, wouldn't she?

I think any characters significantly slower like those who scale to old Wilhelm should be considered peak human.

i was literally talking to him about how Theresia would need to be downgraded from FTL now

 

[MasterOwOgay]

cant wait for speed is messy 3 thread

 

[VortechsTG]

Speed ain't messy. Arc 8 is messy.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

I think this CRT is pretty valid, Halibel should only really scale in speed and skill imo since he is super haxxed and barely has any AP feats afair
Theresia and whoever she scales to would get downgraded from FTL (Thank god) to Olbart (there should be some scaling in Ex 6) or whoever is next in line


honestly i never really agreed with MH+ travel speed for Theresia and Wilhelm anyway so good riddance however i do feel like 50 metres in 2 second statement might be a bit low so we can discuss on that
agree with the rest for now

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I think this CRT is pretty valid, Halibel should only really scale in speed and skill imo since he is super haxxed and barely has any AP feats afair
Theresia and whoever she scales to would get downgraded from FTL (Thank god) to Olbart (there should be some scaling in Ex 6) or whoever is next in line


honestly i never really agreed with MH+ travel speed for Theresia and Wilhelm anyway so good riddance however i do feel like 50 metres in 2 second statement might be a bit low so we can discuss on that
agree with the rest for now

^^^
Now I can finally sleep

 

[Fezzih_007]

Agree,

 

[Zabazab]

I disagree, but I'll respond properly tomorrow. Just know that I think the anti-feats for Cecilus are too huge to ignore.

Edit: Literally 20 minutes after I posted this, the WN updated and the new chapter had this in it, so yeah sure this is fine. Halibel should just have the same rating as Cecilus though, rather than randomly being tens of thousands of times weaker.

――さて、ラインハルト・ヴァン・アストレアは最強である。

『青き雷光』セシルス・セグムントの方が速く、『礼賛者』ハリベルの方が技巧派で、『狂皇子』ヴェイグ・アドガルドの方が死から遠く、四大に連なる大精霊たちの方がマナの総量で上回り、魔女教大罪司教たちの方が不条理な権能を有し、大罪の『魔女』たちの方が多くの命を奪い、凡百の善人の方が嘘がうまく、凡百の悪人の方が絶えずしぶとい。

Then, Reinhard van Astrea is the strongest.

"The Blue Lightning" Cecilus Segmunt is faster, "The Admirer" Halibel's skill is superior, "The Mad Prince" Vague Adgard is further from death, The Four Great Spirits of the Elements collectively have more mana, the Witch Cult's Sin Archbishops possess more illogical Authorities, the crimes of the "Witches" have taken far more lives, many kinds of good people are better liars and many kinds of bad people are more persistent.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I disagree, but I'll respond properly tomorrow. Just know that I think the anti-feats for Cecilus are too huge to ignore.

Edit: Literally 20 minutes after I posted this, the WN updated and the new chapter had this in it, so yeah sure this is fine. Halibel should just have the same rating as Cecilus though, rather than randomly being tens of thousands of times weaker.

Tappei loves me oh and Al Shario should get high 6A or 5C

 

[Zabazab]

Tappei loves me oh and Al Shario should get high 6A or 5C

This can go in a different CRT given the chapter isn't even translated yet...

 

[GG55HH]

I disagree, but I'll respond properly tomorrow. Just know that I think the anti-feats for Cecilus are too huge to ignore.

Edit: Literally 20 minutes after I posted this, the WN updated and the new chapter had this in it, so yeah sure this is fine. Halibel should just have the same rating as Cecilus though, rather than randomly being tens of thousands of times weaker.

New chapter in arc 9?

 

[Gigi_4_life]

New chapter in arc 9?

Yeah, we finally saw Reinhard fight again and the narration started talking abt aspects in which other characters surpass Reinhard in

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Tappei wrote this chapter so Gigi could get his CRT passed

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Tappei wrote this chapter so Gigi could get his CRT passed

Tappei bends the story to my will, I remember when I was first discussing with Zab abt Cecilus being relative to Reinhard, like not even a few weeks later, the "equally skilled" quote dropped and the Q&A abt Ceci being faster appeared as well

 

[VortechsTG]

Ok, Cecilus and Halibel certainly do scale to Reinhard in terms of speed and skill. That much is clear now. Strongly disagree with anything else.

Although Cecilus does stand at the height of strength alongside Reinhard in some respects, it's still made clear neither him nor anyone else alive today stands on equal footing with him (save for Satella who for all intents and purposes is not around). That is made very clear in both the new chapter and the Halibel quote in the op. Cecilus is likely implied outright to be stronger in wrath if than the main story and even if he weren't, using that as evidence is sketchy at best.

There is no reason to downgrade Theresia and Wilhelm, especially when weaker characters in their novels have relativistic feats. They simply scale too.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

There is no reason to downgrade Theresia and Wilhelm, especially when weaker characters in their novels have relativistic feats. They simply scale too.

Who do they scale to? Theresia and Wilhelm have been firmly established to be far below Reinhard in everything while Cecilus and Halibel scale above him in speed and skill respectively

 

[VortechsTG]

Who do they scale to? Theresia and Wilhelm have been firmly established to be far below Reinhard in everything while Cecilus and Halibel scale above him in speed and skill respectively

This is not true. They were established to be well below Reinhard overall. So was Cecilus. Just as an example Julius and Ferris were talking about how Cecilus never stood a chance against Reinhard.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

Finally someone fighting my battle. I am saying since years that Cecilus is underrated. Add how Reinhard complimented him sincerely for the first time of his life and the IFs stuff.

"You are the powerful opponent chosen by the sword.
Reinhard always maximize the strengths of others. But this time the praise had more sincere feelings than the literal meaning"

 

[Gigi_4_life]

This is not true. They were established to be well below Reinhard overall.

After witnessing Reinhard on the battlefield for the first time, Wilhelm was reminiscing about how, after beating Theresia, he thought he could be as strong as he wanted and after seeing Reinhard, he realized how foolish he was.

Spoiler: VOLUME 20

He had proven that there was no distance that could not be overcome
--How narrow and small his world had been.
The quality was different. The height was different. The weight was different. It was different in every possible way. It was not something even remotely in the realm of achievable. It was something that quite literally lived in a different world from everyone and everything else.

So was Cecilus.

I wouldn't say he's well below when he has statements from the narration saying he's equal in skill to Reinhard and faster than him.

Just as an example Julius and Ferris were talking about how Cecilus never stood a chance against Reinhard.

I don't see how Cecilus being weaker than Reinhard means anything at all. Reinhard is the strongest, nobody can beat him.

And well, they said how he never stood a chance, but it's revealed in Sword Identity that the match was a draw and later in ex 4 it is said that Cecilus made Reinhard realize he wasn't alone at the top.

"After that, I felt I had to teach the Sword Saint something myself. I had to show him that he wasn't alone, either. That I was there. And there might even be others who stand with us. That's what I wanted him to understand."
There had been no time for a relaxed chat between Reinhard and Cecilus. Thus, the Volakian general could not hope he had communicated as clearly as he might have with words. However, he was also confident that he had most certainly conveyed his feelings across, at least in some measure--- for Reinhard, Dragon Sword drawn, seemed to be enjoying himself as he battled the man in the blue kimono.

This is further backed by Reinhard telling Cecilus in wrath if that their previous match meant a lot to him.

Cecilus: “I was waiting for this opportunity―― A chance to cross swords with you.”

Reinhard: “…Cecilus-dono, I have already fought with you before. That match was, to me, of great significance. Why is it you…”

 

[VortechsTG]

Wilhelm would disagree

You can't just drop this with no context or source and act like it means something.

I wouldn't say he's well below when he has statements from the narration saying he's equal in skill to Reinhard and faster than him.

And yet he doesn't stand a chance against him.

I don't see how Cecilus being weaker than Reinhard means anything at all. Reinhard is the strongest, nobody can beat him.

Then Theresia and Wilhelm being weaker than him doesn't mean anything either.

And well, they said how he never stood a chance, but it's revealed in Sword Identity that the match was a draw and later in ex 4 it is said that Cecilus made Reinhard realize he wasn't alone at the top.

It was officially a draw. Cecilus was never actually going to beat Reinhard in a million years.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

You can't just drop this with no context or source and act like it means something.

fixed

And yet he doesn't stand a chance against him.

From Julius and Felix's POVs, who only witnessed a holding back Cecilus in Vollachia. Cecilus being faster than Reinhard and equally as skilled should mean he can at least put up a fight against him, even if he does obviously lose in the end.

Then Theresia and Wilhelm being weaker than him doesn't mean anything either.

Fair enough

It was officially a draw. Cecilus was never actually going to beat Reinhard in a million years.

Yeah, it's a friendly sparring, they were both holding back.

The fact that it's acknowledged that Reinhard was having fun fighting when he realized he wasn't alone at the top seems to imply that the gap between them as fighters isn't huge.

 

[VortechsTG]

fixed

Ok, fair. Reinhard's sword slashes are stronger than Theresia's. This is consistent with what I have been saying though. Cecilus ain't destroying and recreating the world with a single sword slash either. It is important to point out he has drawn the dragon sword here.

From Julius and Felix's POVs, who only witnessed a holding back Cecilus in Vollachia.

And their actual final fight that was supposedly a "draw."

Cecilus being faster than Reinhard and equally as skilled should mean he can at least put up a fight against him, even if he does obviously lose in the end.

No, it doesn't mean that inherently. Reinhard's strength is in another league. This is the same reason we equalize speed in matches but in reverse. Just because one stat is comparable doesn't mean others will be. That was kinda the whole point of the comparisons in this newest chapter. Some can surpass Reinhard in one area but all the same Reinhard is unquestionably the strongest because of everything else. That was hammered in as the whole point.

The fact that it's acknowledged that Reinhard was having fun fighting when he realized he wasn't alone at the top seems to imply that the gap between them as fighters isn't huge.

It does not imply this. Reinhard also really enjoyed fighting Garfiel. For someone like him who is always far beyond everyone else, someone who can even put up a little bit of a challenge for him in some ways is going to be refreshing. That's only natural. He is severely deprived of any challenge. At best this is a speculative line of reasoning. It isn't more important than the statements directly comparing Cecilus to both Theresia and Reinhard. The former being around his level and the latter being impossible for him to defeat.

 

[Lgamer099_99]

I remember that in the ex novel they mentioned how Reinhard is the only one who can fight Cecilus even though they got Marcos who is pretty solid strong fighter, Marcos can def fight Theresia.

 

[VortechsTG]

I remember that in the ex novel they mentioned how Reinhard is the only one who can fight Cecilus even though they got Marcos who is pretty solid strong fighter, Marcos can def fight Theresia.

I agree that Marcos can fight Theresia but this does not contradict the point. And where was this stated?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Theresia contemplating killing the war god, the twin shura and the rest of the gang with a handkerchief she was handed

 

[Trxyway]

two seconds to complete a 50 meter dash.

, i hope noone ever asks tappei anything speed related ever again

 

[Zabazab]

And where was this stated?

Closest statement I found is this

“Still, what a pleasure to come face-to-face with Old Cliffside himself, Marcos Gildark-dono. I would certainly love to see what I could learn from you in a match…”

“The honor is mine. But I believe I’ll refrain.”

“Hmm, that’s too bad. Really too bad.” The Blue Lightning of Vollachia slumped.

“Don’t be too disappointed,” Marcos said with the grin of a true warrior, an expression full of blood and steel. The captain nodded at Cecilus. “I know of a much better opponent for you. He’s just come back—and I’m happy to tell you he’s quite open to the idea of accepting your challenge.”

Julius started. “…! Captain, you don’t mean—?”

“Aw, you’ve got to be kidding… You are kidding, right?” Ferris added, all too aware of what Marcos had in mind. Their shock came from different places, but the result was the same. Their reactions hinted to Cecilus what must be going on, that his wish had unexpectedly been granted. “This better opponent— could it be…?”

“The Sword Saint,” Marcos said, putting an end to all doubt. Then he added, “Reinhard van Astrea is awaiting Cecilus Segmunt-dono in the training ground. Just… try not to kill each other.” –Ex Novel 4, "The Silver Flower Dance of the Sword Saint and the Blue Lightning"

I do think it's worth acknowledging why Reinhard=Cecilus can be argued against. Like, this is their entire only on-screen fight (Reinhard is slightly nerfed by a Collar of Submission, too):

“And so I shall! Right, excellent, let’s see just how good this newcomer is!” Cecilus took the emperor’s remark as his cue, striking a fighting stance with his third-best sword and promptly disappearing. He had sounded completely at ease during their banter, but the prowess of The Blue Lightning of Vollachia was on full display now. Julius was unable to see even Cecilus’ ponytail as the general sped forward. The strike, like a bolt from the sky, lashed out at Reinhard’s neck with the power of a storm.

“Aw, you must be joking…”

“Many pardons. It happened to be right at my feet, so I just decided to use it.” Cecilus gazed in amazement at Reinhard, who had just apologized for causing such a surprise. Clutched in the Sword Saint’s hand was a katana, or rather, what remained of one. It was Cecilus’ fifth-best sword, the one Julius had shattered.

“…!” That single exchange was enough to convey Reinhard’s unparalleled strength. Eyes shining, Cecilus disappeared again. He went as fast as his namesake, then even faster. Multiple images of the man in the blue kimono began to appear until it seemed as though Reinhard was against an army of a hundred. It was beyond anything Julius’s defensive reflexes might have been able to respond to. This surely must have been Cecilus’ last resort.

But if Cecilus at his greatest seemed superhuman, then so did Reinhard. The Sword Saint didn’t give an inch of ground, parrying the encroaching attacks with nothing but the hiltless blade of his opponent’s own broken weapon. Reinhard deflected, swept away, and guarded against every strike. With only half a sword, one he had to hold with the tips of his fingers to not cut himself, Reinhard was defending against what was essentially an enchanted sword. Such power was truly something from the realm of nightmares. And if that was how Julius saw it, then how much more did the enemy, the Divine General, think of it?

Yet even in the face of such fearsome strength… “Think you can keep up with this?!” Cecilus unleashed a devastating crosswise cut, but there was a tremble in his voice now. Every mode of attack he had tried had been thoroughly rebuked. Maybe it was amazement— or even fear; either would have been appropriate when confronting Reinhard.

But in fact, the quiver in his voice was not from any excess of emotion. It was from facing this thing head-on…

“More…”

“I believe it’s about time I counterattack,” Reinhard said.

Cecilus licked his lips and tensed his waist as he prepared to move even faster. It was only an instant, the blink of an eye in the midst of a thunderstorm, but it wasn’t lost on Reinhard. Swiftly, he drew an arc with one long leg, targeting Cecils’s slim body. His kick sliced through the air with not only beauty, but enough power to split a tree in half with a single blow.

In a battle of swords, the deliberate choice to use a kick sent a very clear message, and it was right to do so— but to choose it during such a clash of titans was tantamount to foolishness.

“Leaving your dear sword sheathed is going to cost you your life!” Cecils exclaimed. Reinhard had left the Dragon Sword at his hip, and now Cecilus’ strike came rushing at him. It was a slash designed to catch the incoming kick; even Reinhard couldn’t win in a battle of blade against leg. Consequently, he chose to twist his waist and hip, changing the angle of his strike in midair.

“Wha—?!” With a crack like a whip, the foot that had been coming for his chest was suddenly aimed at Cecilus’ delicate neck.

“…!” The impact robbed the Divine General of consciousness, and the man’s eyes rolled back in his head for a moment. The swordsman fell to the ground like a puppet with cut strings.

The empire’s strongest fighter made a thump as he collapsed. It left the two remaining members of the Nine Divine Generals speechless. Julius and Ferris were surprised as well, of course. To them, Reinhard’s victory had never been in doubt, but the degree to which he had overwhelmed Cecilus was still a surprise.

“Pride upon pride… To challenge an opponent without understanding his true strength, and to come out like this… I have had quite enough of theatrics. To be defeated without even a chance to use one’s full strength is not in keeping with the principles of the empire.” Vincent seemed a man apart, neither openly surprised nor particularly crestfallen. This was despite the fact that his own general— one of his strongest warriors— had just been defeated. The ruler of Vollachia’s attitude of near boredom hadn’t changed. –Ex Novel 4, "Diplomacy by Bloodshed"

Cecilus says he's wholly and truly outmatched as a result:

Finally, he looked around at them vacantly, his gaze settling on Reinhard. “Um, then what about settling things between us?”

“I’m afraid I’ll have to ask that it be another time,” Reinhard responded with a wry smile. “Perhaps when I’m not in… this situation.” He tapped a finger against the [Collar of Submission] around his neck.

“Ahh, yes indeed,” Cecilus said, nodding. “But— doesn’t that mean I am wholly and truly outmatched?!” –Ex Novel 4, "Diplomacy by Bloodshed"

Emperor Vincent affirms that Cecilus is not yet a swordsman equal to Reinhard:

“He lost once. It will not happen again. Under any other circumstances, I would not even furnish him with a second chance to be defeated.” Vincent, his chin still in his hands, pulled his lips back. The predatory grin told Groovy and Moguro everything. Even Cecilus’ defeat had been foreseen by the Emperor.

Vollachia’s strongest fighter, who had never known anything but victory, had tasted loss in his battle with the Sword Saint from the Kingdom of Lugunica. Such an experience would forge Cecilus Segmunt into a swordsman the equal of Reinhard van Astrea.

“The collar… The rebellion… The defeat of my strongest…” If all this had truly been within the purview of the emperor’s plans, then words failed at the profundity of his thinking. But even in the face of all this, why? Why risk his own life?

“All simply to improve the chance of success.” –Ex Novel 4, "Diplomacy by Bloodshed"

 

[Gigi_4_life]

I do see the points, but they're all from ex 4, and it seems like Tappei retconned Cecilus' strength from that point onwards.

Heck, we have Al saying in the latest chapter that he doesn't think base Reinhard can replicate Cecilus' feat of destroying Al Shario when the latter had the Dream Sword, which basically confirms Cecilus with the Dream Sword can cut through things that base Reinhard can't.

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 14 SPOILERS

I'm not optimistic that Al Chario can't be prevented.

In fact, the `Blue Lightning'', who was considered to be on the same level as the `Sword Saint'', had achieved the unparalleled feat of slicing down the fallen star with a single swing of his sword during the Battle of the Imperial Capital.

That Star Slash was the result of Cecilus’ swordsmanship combined with the power of the 『Dream Sword』, and he didn’t think that Reinhard, who couldn’t pull off the 『Dragon Sword』, could do the same.

 

[VortechsTG]

I do see the points, but they're all from ex 4, and it seems like Tappei retconned Cecilus' strength from that point onwards.

Then you can't use quotes from ex 4 in your argument. You can't say it suggests Cecilus is much weaker than Reinhard after saying it suggests he is equal to him.

Heck, we have Al saying in the latest chapter that he doesn't think base Reinhard can replicate Cecilus' feat of destroying Al Shario when the latter had the Dream Sword, which basically confirms Cecilus with the Dream Sword can cut through things that base Reinhard can't.

Bear in mind this a spell Echidna can use effortlessly. If we take this at face value base Reinhard is also below Echidna without divine protections. Echidna.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Then you can't use quotes from ex 4 in your argument. You can't say it suggests Cecilus is much weaker than Reinhard after saying it suggests he is equal to him.

I never said it suggested he was much weaker than Reinhard. I simply think that the more recent statements and feats of Cecilus are more suggestive of his true strength. I think there's a reason most of the arguments for Cecilus being fodder to Reinhard come from ex 4. But anyways, I still think ex 4's ending shows he's not fodder.

I think that Cecilus was first written to be solidly weaker than Reinhard, but not fodder, while right now he's even better than Reinhard in speed and similar in skill, which I don't think was the case previously (ergo the Wilhelm statements and etc...)

Bear in mind this a spell Echidna can use effortlessly. If we take this at face value base Reinhard is also below Echidna without divine protections. Echidna.

After witnessing Cecilus cut through Al Shario, Al mentions it's a sort of trump card that she can't use a lot

Cecilus Segmunt had slayed the star.

In the likeness of the Witch of Greed, the one behind the curtain who had employed a forbidden magic that was a specialty of that same Witch, was now wide-eyed at the same reality Al had witnessed.

It was no easy feat to make a star fall.

Even the real Witch of Greed had said that she would not want to make more than one fall in the span of a day.

In other words, she could not fire more in succession.

Reinhard obviously stomps Echidna (hell, we see Cecilus and Halibel stomp multiple Echidna lvl beings (Sphinx) at the same time in arc 8), but Al Shario is specifically said to be the pinnacle of destruction in the latest chapter

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 14 SPOILERS

--Al Chario.



It was one of the forbidden techniques that the ancient 『Witches』 were good at.

This was the realization of an incredible miracle: a star, a gigantic mass of mana that shone and burned in the far reaches of the sky, was brought down to the earth by utilizing the property of homogeneous mana attracting each other.

Naturally, to make a star fall on a specific spot requires precise control of magic and an unimaginable amount of mana to make it happen. In exchange for the difficulty of making it happen, the mana contained in the light of a star is comparable to that of a great spirit, and it is said that in the past it even brought down a flock of dragons.



Its destructive power easily surpasses even the destructive breath of a Dragon, who was given the right to destroy the world with just a roar; it could be said to be the pinnacle of destructive acts.



"Magic is a miraculous study that has the potential to turn any imagination into reality, you know? The birth of a magic so powerful it can sneer at the breath of a 'Dragon' was inevitable if there was someone who wished to surpass it... someday, a magic even more powerful than the magic that can make stars fall will be born. Humans are truly greedy, don't you think that's wonderful?"



"So," said the beautiful white-haired "Witch" to Aldebaran with a smug look on her face.

Even now, when I think back on that smug look, I get angry, but I believe it wasn't a lie or a bluff. That's because I was able to see the real thing with the smug-looking "Witch" with my own eyes.

In other words, this was a destruction that surpassed even the breath of the 『Dragon』, the current pinnacle of destruction.

Echidna having this OP spell doesn't mean she's "stronger" than Reinhard (tho Al Shario should pack more pure power than base Reinhard), Reinhard can simply blitz her before she activates it or dodge it (which he could have probably done in the latest chapter if it hadn't been for VolcanicAl's intervention). Reinhard would obviously be able to cut through it if he could unsheathe Reid but that damn sword is never in the mood it seems.

 

[VortechsTG]

I never said it suggested he was much weaker than Reinhard. I simply think that the more recent statements and feats of Cecilus are more suggestive of his true strength.

Then you agree that it's not inconsistent, and it's true that Cecilus is not a swordsman on Reinhard's level yet?

I think there's a reason most of the arguments for Cecilus being fodder to Reinhard come from ex 4.

Yes, it's because it's the only time they are together and we see the most clear and direct of comparisons.

After witnessing Cecilus cut through Al Shario, Al mentions it's a sort of trump card that she can't use a lot

And yet, despite what this quote says, she did in fact use it again. And she has many such trump cards. We know of at least three others of comparable power. One of them is Ol Shamak and another is Stone Armor so they don't really matter much here but it's still well established she has many such spells. These trump cards are part of her arsenal at the end of the day. If Sphinx can react to and fight Cecilus even without these trump cards and then Cecilus has to draw out his greatest power ever to counter one of them it implies they're pretty comparable.

Reinhard obviously stomps Echidna (hell, we see Cecilus and Halibel stomp multiple Echidna lvl beings (Sphinx) at the same time in arc 8

This does not happen. Sphinx was low on mana. We saw Sphinx fight him earlier while maybe on sufficient mana and he clearly won but she was still a threat to him. And then there's his fight with Muspel, one of the four great spirits who are supposed to be weaker than Roswaal and Echidna, who was being held back by Arakiya. Al has to save him there so he wouldn't die. He was arguably stronger then than in ex 4.

but Al Shario is specifically said to be the pinnacle of destruction in the latest chapter

Many things are said to be "the pinnacle." It doesn't mean much.

Reinhard can simply blitz her

No, he can't, because she can react to even Cecilus.

Reinhard would obviously be able to cut through it if he could unsheathe Reid but that damn sword is never in the mood it seems.

Have you considered that maybe it is simply that Reinhard needs the sword to do these things? The fact that he can't here does not prove that Cecilus is an equal to Reinhard at full power, or even to him in this fight. It just proves that his sword has more cutting power than Reinhard's bare hands. Reinhard is still almost certainly much physically stronger.

 

[Gigi_4_life]

Then you agree that it's not inconsistent, and it's true that Cecilus is not a swordsman on Reinhard's level yet?

No, that is in fact one of the retcons, as the narration explains Cecilus being able to use the space slash by saying he's equal in skill to Reinhard

Simply put, the reason for the collapse of the loot house was that an ordinary, blunt blade had found a wielder who could fulfill its true purpose as a sword, and thus had it been swung.

If that was the case, then.

If the Sword Saint could achieve that, there was no reason why an equally skilled wielder could not do the same.

Cecilus: [――You did a great job, Al-san.]

Yes, it's because it's the only time they are together and we see the most clear and direct of comparisons.

When they were both nerfed (Reinhard because of the collar and Cecilus because he's holding back), but I see the point

If Sphinx can react to and fight Cecilus even without these trump cards and then Cecilus has to draw out his greatest power ever to counter one of them it implies they're pretty comparable.

Kid Cecilus mind you, and yet Al told Cecilus to not kill Sphinx during this fight (due to her kamikaze trick that Al can't ever avoid or protect himself from) and due to the fact that Arakiya needed to be protected

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 65

???: [――Ah in that case I’m terribly sorry but that’ll no longer be… wahwahwahwahwahwahwah!?]

The Witch narrowed her eyes, framed by white lashes, and murmured disapprovingly.

Cecilus, aiming at her slender neck from behind, was startled by the earthen wall that suddenly appeared before him, and immediately kicked away into the air, spun around and landed, then turned his furious and reproachful eyes toward Al.

Cecilus: [Hey hey Al-san! What are you doing getting in my way all of a sudden? That was supposed to be the stylish scene where I show off my abilities after being underestimated at the beginning! Even the audience is booing me!]

Al: [Sorry to steal your spotlight, but I can’t let you do that. After all, if I let you do that, everyone… or, at least, I‘d be wiped out.]

Witch: [――. Hmm.]

Cecilus stomped his feet on the ground in protest, to which Al replied, causing the Witch to let out a sigh.

From that single comment, the Witch seemed to have realized that Al had seen through her trap―― a technique that distorted space, blowing away an entire area as it recoiled.

As soon as Cecilus would cut off the Witch’s head, causing the power maintaining the twisted space to cease, a dead man’s switch would be triggered―― rather than detonating upon the press of a button, it was a trap with the same mechanism as a bomb that would be triggered by the release of a button.

It was a power that Al could not withstand, regardless of how many walls of earth he erected or how much armor of stone he wore.

In reality, Cecilus might have been able to flee even while carrying Arakiya, but for Al it was a passageway to death with no means of escape.

Therefore, he could not let the Witch be killed recklessly. ――This was a fact that Al had been able to ascertain through fifty-three attempts of trial and error.

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 65

Even with Cecilus around, he could not be too careful. This was because, along with the fact that one could not carelessly kill the Witch, Al had become convinced of another fact.

That was――,

Al: [Cecilus, hold onto Lil’ Miss Arakiya tightly.]

Cecilus: [Of course I don’t intend to throw her away carelessly but… doesn’t that way of putting it make it sound like I should treat her as if she was as important as a princess?]

Al: [That’s right. ――Since the aim of that woman, is Lil’ Miss Arakiya’s life.]

The Witch, the bearer of the Great Disaster, had brought herself here, all due to the fact that Arakiya’s life slumbered within the arms of Cecilus.

This does not happen. Sphinx was low on mana. We saw Sphinx fight him earlier while maybe on sufficient mana and he clearly won but she was still a threat to him. And then there's his fight with Muspel, one of the four great spirits who are supposed to be weaker than Roswaal and Echidna, who was being held back by Arakiya. Al has to save him there so he wouldn't die. He was arguably stronger then than in ex 4.

Sphinx managed to gain a portion of the mana from the Crystal Palace, which completely recharged her and is why she decided to employ more clones of herself

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 72

At this moment, after deconstructing the magic crystals with the activation of the incomplete magic circle, there were forty-four Witches that Sphinx had manifested by absorbing some of the vast amount of Mana.

After Sphinx realized her spell to create the undead stopped, she admitted she couldn't do anything to Cecilus and Halibel, despite having Echidna's powers, even if she ganged up on them respectively with multiple clones

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 73

With the supply of Mana to the magic circle severed, she had spent around five seconds sorting out the situation.

But, in those mere five seconds, Sphinx, who had already been reduced to thirty-six bodies, was diminished by another seven, bringing her total count down to twenty-nine.

Moving with superhuman speed and combat ability, the Blue Lightning and the Admirer were far too powerful.

Although she was supposed to be able to reproduce the capacity of her creator, the Witch of Greed, she could not hold her own in the slightest. She could not even get a solid hit in. These opponents were on a level such that she could not even overcome them by sheer force of numbers.

Kid Cecilus is the one that fought Muspel-Arakiya (adult Cecilus is the one after Al Shario that Sphinx mentioned to be on a different level) and the only reason he couldn't win at first was due to AP issues, which was resolved the moment he received a weapon, but I digress. Even then, Muspel was never confirmed to be weaker than Echidna or Roswaal, all we have is Puck saying Roswaal is comparable to the Great Spirits. I also don't think I need to get into why kid Cecilus is far weaker than adult Cecilus

Many things are said to be "the pinnacle." It doesn't mean much.

Fair, but it's verbatim confirmed to be stronger than Volcanica's breath attacks

Spoiler: ARC 9 CHAPTER 14 SPOILERS

Even now, when I think back on that smug look, I get angry, but I believe it wasn't a lie or a bluff. That's because I was able to see the real thing with the smug-looking "Witch" with my own eyes.

In other words, this was a destruction that surpassed even the breath of the 『Dragon』, the current pinnacle of destruction.

No, he can't, because she can react to even Cecilus.

Kid Cecilus blitzed her instantly, Al had to later stop him from doing so (earlier scan) and then told him to protect Arakiya, which is why the battle turned into Cecilus always defending himself from Sphinx's attacks and not going on the offensive.

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 65

Witch: [Refusing to answer, I see? I would like to know more information about yourself beyond simply being a squire of Priscilla Barielle――]

???: [――Ah in that case I’m terribly sorry but that’ll no longer be possible.]

It was a flash of lightning, an instantaneous event.

Just as the Witch was about to point a finger at the barely upright Al, Cecilus appeared behind her with Arakiya in his arms.

Supporting Arakiya with just his left hand, he pulled out the Dream Sword with his right hand, and with one flash of his right hand, without hesitation―― the Witch’s head was sent flying off.

Witch: [Wha――]

Cecilus: [You said I couldn’t kill you, didn’t you. To be honest the way you said that was a lil’ bit off-putting so I hope I can redeem myself with this!]

Without even granting her a chance to react, the blade easily parted the Witch’s head from her torso.

Above the speechless Al’s head, Cecilus stuck his tongue out, as his swordsmanship easily killed even the Witch.

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 65

That was to say, in the current state, the battle between Cecilus and the Witch was at a standstill.

If what Al had said was true, if they were to decapitate the Witch without a care in the world, the whole area would be blown away. When he strained his eyes, he could see that the atmosphere surrounding the Witch was distorting, so there was quite a high amount of credibility to that.

Even if the space was about to be blown away, Cecilus could probably outrun it and get away, but the moment that Al, who was deep with doubt and capable of using “True Sight” just like Schwartz, did not make any indication of that being the case, Cecilus could somewhat presume that it would be a disadvantageous gamble.

Therefore, this was a standstill, and if the only way to move the situation forward was Cecilus, it would be a one-way ticket to their demise――,

Cecilus: [That’s why this is your time to shine, Al-san.]

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 65

That was not something aimed at Cecilus, but rather, it was aimed directly at Al―― no, it was aimed at Arakiya, who was being carried in his arms, but the attack that was attempting to stop her heart would not reach.

Right in the nick of time, Al evaded by a margin that could only be described as a hair’s breadth.

That evasion was terribly clumsy, with a form that paid no heed to how he looked while doing so.

Cecilus: [If it’s a good outcome and it’s in-char then that’s fine! However just as Al-san said, Anya is being completely targeted!]

Al: [At any rate, it seems like if Lil’ Miss Arakiya dies, the base of the Empire will collapse!]

Cecilus: [I see I don’t get it in the slightest!]

Being told something that sounded like a joke in a manner that did not seem to be joking, though Cecilus smiled, he did not laugh; snatching Arakiya from Al’s hand as they passed each other, he accelerated.

Have you considered that maybe it is simply that Reinhard needs the sword to do these things? The fact that he can't here does not prove that Cecilus is an equal to Reinhard at full power, or even to him in this fight. It just proves that his sword has more cutting power than Reinhard's bare hands. Reinhard is still almost certainly much physically stronger.

I know, but not many characters have more cutting power (Al says it was the result of both his swordsmanship and the sword) than Reinhard's bare hands, let alone the likes of Theresia or Wilhelm, but I digress, I think we got a bit too off-topic.


We started debating because we had disagreements over whether or not Theresia and Wilhelm should have a speed downgrade, but the very reason they're even FTL to begin with is because they scaled to Cecilus, who has FTL feats, while they don't. Now that Cecilus has been stated twice to be faster than Reinhard, I don't think there should be any reason Theresia and Wilhelm scale to him in terms of speed.

 

[Zabazab]

No, that is in fact one of the retcons, as the narration explains Cecilus being able to use the space slash by saying he's equal in skill to Reinhard

I still think this line is nonsense purely because it's talking about Child Cecilus. In no world is 12 year old Cecilus equal in skill to Reinhard.

Vollachia’s strongest fighter, who had never known anything but victory, had tasted loss in his battle with the Sword Saint from the Kingdom of Lugunica. Such an experience would forge Cecilus Segmunt into a swordsman the equal of Reinhard van Astrea. –Ex Volume 4, "Diplomacy by Bloodshed"

But he had already decided on the words that would follow. Neither did he intend to attempt any lies nor pretense on her. Were the Kingdom and the Empire to battle, a great deal of imperial blood would be spilled. The heart of the matter was――

Roswaal: “After all, the Kingdom has the Sword Saint, Reinhard van Astrea. Every Imperial Soldier who comes across the border will amass into a great river of blood.”

Serena: “Oh come on, that’s an illegal move!”

Roswaal: “Even if you call it an illegal move, as long as it exists, there is no choice buuut~ to place it on the table for discussion. Though as you say, it’s a trump card that destroys the discussion.”
————
Roswaal: “If you overestimate the power of your own country, or underestimate the power of the Sword Saint, you’ll be unable to escape the tragedy. So, I’ll blow an adverse wind into your mind. You shooould~ not go to war.” –Arc 7, Chapter 81

All at once, the lumps of earth surged into the tavern. Facing them, Rowan used a single hand to tear his katana out of its sheath, and as he wore a large grin on his face, “Stay alive and wait, prodigal son of mine―― You’ve still some way to go, before ya reach the Heavenly Sword.” –Arc 8, Chapter 21

Rowan: “For Cecilus in his current state, the summit of the Heavenly Sword’s become distant once again. By being shrunken, his skill with the sword’s been dulled. With how he is, he won’t be able to fulfill the promise we made when he slayed me.” –Arc 8, Chapter 38

——Then, Reinhard van Astrea is the strongest.

"The Blue Lightning" Cecilus Segmunt is faster, "The Admirer" Halibel's skill is superior, "The Mad Prince" Vague Adgard is further from death, The Four Great Spirits of the Elements collectively have more mana, the Witch Cult's Sin Archbishops possess more illogical Authorities, the crimes of the "Witches" have taken far more lives, many kinds of good people are better liars and many kinds of bad people are more persistent. –Arc 9, Chapter 14

 

[Gigi_4_life]

There's a few possibilities due to that statement:

1. Adult Cecilus is more skilled than Reinhard (due to Rowan's statements)
2. Kid Cecilus is equal in skill to adult Cecilus (so still equal to Reinhard), you can say that Rowan is a dum dum who's not reliable and how Cecilus never meeting any worthy opponents in his life (until ex 4) made it so that his skill never improved
3. Kid Cecilus evolved during the Arakiya fight to become as skilled as his adult self (hence why he trained and swung a sword millions of times in his head)

imo option 3 is the more likely one, as Cecilus only performs the space slash after his schizo training

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 57

Cecilus: [That ending needs a rewrite.]

Cecilus swung the slightly oversized dao with the skill of a seasoned swordsman, as if he had swung it thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of millions of times before.

Even though it would have been the first time he wielded the weapon, within Cecilus’s ever-so expansive imagination and theater of his mind, there existed a record of swinging this dao throughout the mornings, afternoons, and nights, puking up blood and sweating profusely. However, depicting such scenes would be NG for Cecilus, so he simply plucked the fruits of his efforts.

――In an instant, a flash of lightning that transcended the limits of the dao, slashed away the pouring rain of light into nihil.

It was not just the countless strands of light that were obliterated in that flash. The dense forest of stone pillars that covered Cecilus’s left, right, and rear, attempting to seal off any escape routes, was blown to smithereens.

At this moment, Cecilus Segmunt’s sword strike had surpassed the Spirit Eater Arakiya―― No, it had surpassed the Stone, Muspel, which was said to be the very land of the Vollachian Empire.

Cecilus thinks a fight to the death (which is very much the case in kid Cecilus vs Muspel-Arakiya as he's about to die during that moment) can make him surpass himself, so it's possible that it was in that single moment of grasping Al's sword that he became as skilled as Reinhard and he previously wasn't at that level of skill. Rowan and Cecilus are both in agreement that you can surpass yourself if you're in a battle where you can die.

Spoiler: ARC 8 CHAPTER 37

Rowan: [Hahaha, ya say such silly, silly things, redhead. My goal’s mighty simple. If my son were to do away with His Excellency the Emperor, the whole of the Empire’d become his enemy.]

Heinkel: [That’s pretty… Obvious, though?]

Rowan: [That’s my goal. A situation where those Imperial Soldiers are gonna keep on attacking without sparing any time to eat or sleep… There’s no better environment than that to polish his sword skills between life and death!]

Spoiler: WRATH IF

Cecilus: “I was waiting for this opportunity―― A chance to cross swords with you.”

Reinhard: “…Cecilus-dono, I have already fought with you before. That match was, to me, of great significance. Why is it you…”

Cecilus: “Of course, if my body can wield a sword―― we may only meet in a life-or-death match.”