Re:Zero Spirit Physiology's Regeneration is not Actually Regeneration

[Kachon123]

I was thinking of making this a CRT at first, but I thought a bit and thought that this would be better if posed as a question instead. Changing this to a CRT.

This is the justification for Spirits in Re:Zero having Low-Godly regen

• • Regeneration (Low-Godly; Injury does not exist for Spirits, they will easily recover from any damage to their mana-body, and they can only receive real damage if their Od— the core of their being, which is the owner's life energy and synonymous with the soul— is targeted.)

I'm confused in why this warrants a Low-Godly rating. Why are we assuming that their physical bodies can regenerate from damage beyond "few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, sub-atomic particles, or pure physical energy units"? That's the description for High regen, which seems like what should be the assumption according to what's in the scans linked. Without feats where someone regenerated from destruction specifically stated to be beyond that level, the most you can extrapolate from "the concept of injury" not existing for spirits and a spirit "appearing to be in perfect condition even if burned by heat rays beyond imagination" is High regeneration.

Even though they can regenerate unless their Od , which can in this case be associated with "soul" in Low-Godly regen's description...

Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other non-physical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

... that doesn't mean they can create matter for their physical body from absolutely nothing.

So pretty this is my question: Are there any feats in throughout the entire series that show a Spirit's physical body regen from damage where it's specified that the destruction was beyond sub-atomic particles and pure energy units?

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EDIT: After much discussion, it was agreed that Spirit's making a physical body doesn't apply for any type of regen, but would instead be Avatar Creation due the reasoning in these posts:

Avatar Creation is the ability to manifest another entity in the place of one's true body, using it as an avatar. This ability may allow the users to interact with the world in a way their true forms, which may be too abstract to normally physically interact

As a result, the new justification for Spirit Physiology's Avatar Creation would be this:

• Avatar Creation and Limited Invulnerability (Injury does not exist for Spirits, they can easily recover from any damage to their mana-body through the creation of a new one, and they can only receive real damage if their Od— the core of their being, which is the owner's life energy and synonymous with the soul— is targeted

or this

• Self-Revival through Avatar Creation (Injury does not exist for Spirits, they can easily recover from any damage to their mana-body through the creation of a new one, and they can only receive real damage if their Od— the core of their being, which is the owner's life energy and synonymous with the soul— is targeted

a note will be added that it can act as a type of pseudo-regeneration

 

[Zabazab]

Spirits are incorporeal beings, essentially souls that construct a mana-body around themselves. Unless their soul is targeted, or they run out of mana, they can't die.

 

[Kachon123]

Spirits are incorporeal beings, essentially souls that construct a mana-body around themselves. Unless their soul is targeted, or they run out of mana, they can't die.

Without any statement or feat that shows them regenerating their body back from Low-Godly levels of damage, the most that can be granted from that is High regen.

 

[Zabazab]

How is making a whole body from just your soul anything but Low-Godly? It's the very definition of it. Spirits don't even have particles to begin with because they're spiritual.

 

[Kachon123]

How is making a whole body from just your soul anything but Low-Godly? It's the very definition of it. Spirits don't even have particles to begin with because they're spiritual.

Because they're not regenerating anything? That's creation and restoration hax not regeneration.

 

[Zabazab]

Restoring your damaged body is regeneration. Injury is meaningless for spirits because their bodies regenerate so long as their soul is fine and they have the mana to do so. That makes it Low-Godly regeneration.

 

[Kachon123]

Restoring your damaged body is regeneration. Injury is meaningless for spirits because their bodies regenerate so long as their soul is fine and they have the mana to do so. That makes it Low-Godly regeneration.

They scale to the feats they've shown. Logias in One Piece don't suddenly all have Low-Godly regen in their transformed states since their bodies regenerate as long as their true body is unharmed, which is for all intents and purposes the same exact thing.

 

[Zabazab]

Is a Logia's true body their soul? Is their body constructed from mana which lacks mass or particles? Is their false body constructed around their soul from nothing? I don't like whataboutery in general but this comparison was especially poor.

 

[Kachon123]

Is a Logia's true body their soul? Is their body constructed from mana which lacks mass or particles? Is their false body constructed around their soul from nothing? I don't like whataboutery in general but this comparison was especially poor.

The comparison was not poor at all. They're functionally the same. The person's true body no longer exists, just like Spirits when they become incorporeal. The can't sustain any injury while transformed if their true body is unharmed.

Anyways, can somebody answer this

Are there any feats in throughout the entire series that show a Spirit's physical body regen from damage where it's specified that the destruction was beyond sub-atomic particles and pure energy units?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Having the ability to create a completely new body for yourself as just a Soul would still be Low-Godly, but there also needs to be a scan of them doing so, or being said to do so.

 

[Zabazab]

A Spirit doesn't have a "true body" they have a soul. Which is what they are regenerating from and why they have Low-Godly regen. And I'm telling you their Low-Godly by nature of their existence. A soul that constructs a mana-body when needed and dissipates, regenerates, or changes at will.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Having the ability to create a completely new body for yourself as just a Soul would still be Low-Godly, but there also needs to be a scan of them doing so, or being said to do so.

Are the scans in the page not indicative enough?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Are the scans in the page not indicative enough?

There needs to be a scan about them creating it in the first place, whether it be after losing it, or making it for the first time.

 

[Zabazab]

Like this? Or like this:

Puck seemed satisfied by this and smiled, he then started disappearing with no warning.

“…Suddenly disappearing like that is a real bad habit of his. It was quite the shock back then.”

She was used to the sight now, but it was terribly surprising when she first saw it. Spirits could freely control the formation and disintegration of their bodies from atmospheric mana.

Not knowing this, Emilia was driven to tears when Puck suddenly disappeared with no explanation. She still remembered how angry she was when Puck just showed up like nothing happened the very next day. —Bond of Ice, Chapter 2, "I Am Here"

 

[Crimsonobu]

There needs to be a scan about them creating it in the first place, whether it be after losing it, or making it for the first time.

"Spirits could freely control the formation and disintegration of their bodies from atmospheric mana."
Source: Re:Zero Prequel: Bonds of Ice, Chapter 2, Section 2.

Is this fine

 

[Crimsonobu]

Sharing 1 brain cell with Zab...

 

[Arkenis]

Just send the scan for them regenerating from nothing. Genuinely this sounds like type 8 immo not LGR

 

[Crimsonobu]

Just send the scan for them regenerating from nothing. Genuinely this sounds like type 8 immo not LGR

They don't regenerate from nothing but their soul.

 

[Arkenis]

Like this? Or like this:

Is this fine

These just sound like magical control than regeneration. We don't give people LGR cuz they atomically relocated themselves through teleportation, idk why we'd give someone LGR for manifesting a body.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is this fine

I would imagine so.

If their body gets hit with EE, they would just form a new one with mana.

These just sound like magical control than regeneration. We don't give people LGR cuz they atomically relocated themselves through teleportation, idk why we'd give someone LGR for manifesting a body.

Once you get into the Gody levels of regeneration, the line between recreating aspects and regenerating them might as well not exist. If you have a method to recreate your whole body after getting hit by EE, then it would still count.

 

[Arkenis]

Once you get into the Gody levels of regeneration, the line between recreating aspects and regenerating them might as well not exist. If you have a method to recreate your whole body after getting hit by EE, then it would still count.

This just removes the need for the actual feat. There are characters where their true self is a soul but their physical body can't regenerate from a certain point. This would just be creation/avatar creation. One of the examples given is that they manifested their body in another room. This is teleportation plain as is and people aren't given LGR for teleportation.

 

[Crimsonobu]

This just removes the need for the actual feat. There are characters where their true self is a soul but their physical body can't regenerate from a certain point. This would just be creation/avatar creation. One of the examples given is that they manifested their body in another room. This is teleportation plain as is and people aren't given LGR for teleportation.

That scan was never used to justify LGR and on the spirit physiology page it is indexed as spatial traversal.

Spaceman replied to my one and not Zabazab's spatial traversal too...

Spirit Physiology (Re:Zero)

―There exist beings known as spirits. Mana fills the world. The Od Lagna is the source of this Mana, and is considered to be the foundation of eternity. Spirit is the term used to refer to supernatural beings who are given life by the Od Lagna, manifest in this world through the power of Mana...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Zabazab just asked if it would work, not that it was used beforehand to justify LGR

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

This just removes the need for the actual feat. There are characters where their true self is a soul but their physical body can't regenerate from a certain point. This would just be creation/avatar creation.

All forms of Godly Regeneration are usually Creation or Avatar Creation. When you regenerate from nothing, you are literally recreating an aspect. There's no other way to do it.

You're creating a body when you didn't have a body.

This is teleportation plain as is and people aren't given LGR for teleportation.

I mean, I don't see this scan being used as the reasoning, so it's not really relevant.

 

[Arkenis]

All forms of Godly Regeneration are usually Creation or Avatar Creation. When you regenerate from nothing, you are literally recreating an aspect. There's no other way to do it.

You're creating a body when you didn't have a body.

They're meaningfully different. One recreates because something was destroyed, the other is simply creating. But if your argument is that Godly regen is synonymous then it should just be replaced with creation/avatar creation atp.

I mean, I don't see this scan being used as the reasoning, so it's not really relevant.

They linked it here.

Like this? Or like this:

That scan was never used to justify LGR and on the spirit physiology page it is indexed as spatial traversal.

Spaceman replied to my one and not Zabazab's spatial traversal too...

He just posted it as an example which is why I brought it up, Ik its not on page. Idc which one was replied too, all can be boiled down to just creation is my point.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

They're meaningfully different. One recreates because something was destroyed, the other is simply creating.

This is a meaningless distinction, because it leads to the same result anyway.

If you regenerate from your body being erased, you are recreating it.

If you create a new body after your body is erased, you are recreating it.

 

[Arkenis]

This is a meaningless distinction, because it leads to the same result anyway.

If you regenerate from your body being erased, you are recreating it.

If you create a new body after your body is erased, you are recreating it.

So then as I said, Godly regen means nothing. We can just classify it all as "creation - X created new body/concept/soul from whatever destruction"?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

So then as I said, Godly regen means nothing. We can just classify it all as "creation - X created new body/concept/soul from whatever destruction"?

Not exactly.

While creating a completely new body for yourself, after it's erased, would be Low Godly, it's technically not Creation.

Creation means making something without resources. Mana is a resource, so creating things with it wouldn't be Creation.

 

[Arkenis]

Not exactly.

While creating a completely new body for yourself, after it's erased, would be Low Godly, it's technically not Creation.

Creation means making something without resources. Mana is a resource, so creating things with it wouldn't be Creation.

Avatar creation then. And so are you saying that people who have statements of regenerating from nothing aren't LGR but just creation then?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Avatar creation then.

Well again, not exactly.

Avatar Creation is making a body separate from your True Body. But some characters, while they can exist as souls, don't treat those souls as their True Body. They may not even be able to think or act as a soul.

And if we're going to call souls, or minds, True Bodies, then technically every human should default to having Avatar Creation.

And so are you saying that people who have statements of regenerating from nothing aren't LGR but just creation then?

Well, it's limited Creation, if they only ever use it to recreate aspects of themselves. And if it's limited like that, you might as well just list it under Regeneration.

 

[Arkenis]

Well again, not exactly.

Avatar Creation is making a body separate from your True Body. But some characters, while they can exist as souls, don't treat those souls as their True Body. They may not even be able to think or act as a soul.

And if we're going to call souls, or minds, True Bodies, then technically every human should default to having Avatar Creation.

And LGR is regenerating a body from a nonphysical aspect which for all intents and purposes acts as their true body. I've said above, this is just type 8 immo then, if some characters don't treat X as their true body, something else is and that is what keeps them existing and able to come back.

This still doesn't get the qualification that LGR states. They have to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the body, not manifest their body from something. Otherwise we're just talking about Inorganic phys/avatar creation

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

@DarkDragonMedeus @Vietthai96 @Oblivion_Of_The_Endless

What do you guys think?

My argument is that, if a being is capable of using Creation to make entirely new bodies for themselves, then having Low Godly Regeneration is fine.

Edit: Also, if they're able to make an entirely new body from resources, separate from the resources erased.

 

[Arkenis]

Creation means making something without resources. Mana is a resource, so creating things with it wouldn't be Creation.

You said this. So not really. You mean energy manipulation if anything since mana is the resource and thus not creation cuz that would be from not using anything.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

You said this. So not really. You mean energy manipulation if anything since mana is the resource and thus not creation cuz that would be from not using anything.

Edited

 

[Zabazab]

What do you guys think?

Low-Godly regen was originally passed by @Celestial_Pegasus and @Elizhaa if you wouldn't mind notifying them as well. And while not vsbw staff, @Phoenks was the first one to advocate Low-Godly regen for spirits.

 

[Arkenis]

Can't that just be avatar creation then? Kaguya can just regenerate from pure chakra.

 

[Vietthai96]

My argument is that, if a being is capable of using Creation to make entirely new bodies for themselves, then having Low Godly Regeneration is fine.

That means Regeneration via Creation

Though i need feat that they can actually regen from complete destruction of their body, because ven if that were made from soul, mana without actual physical body, you still need a regeneration feat from complete destruction to qualify as Low-Godly, or else it is everything below it, DontTalk said this before

 

[Kachon123]

Though i need feat that they can actually regen from complete destruction of their body, because ven if that were made from soul, mana without actual physical body, you still need a regeneration feat from complete destruction to qualify as Low-Godly, or else it is everything below it, DontTalk said this before

This is what I was trying to get at. Thanks

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

That means Regeneration via Creation

Though i need feat that they can actually regen from complete destruction of their body, because ven if that were made from soul, mana without actual physical body, you still need a regeneration feat from complete destruction to qualify as Low-Godly, or else it is everything below it, DontTalk said this before

Yeah, but if a being doesn't start with a body and can create one, is there still a need for a specific destruction feat?

 

[Vietthai96]

Yeah, but if a being doesn't start with a body and can create one, is there still a need for a specific destruction feat?

Still need a specific destruction feat, even if you can create an entirely new body, it doesn't allows for the assumption that you can survive erasure via that one. For example DMC Demons have Low-Godly via Possession but they have feat that if you destroy their entire body they can survive by possessing other objects and molds those object into their body

So the issue is do the verse have implication of Spirit survives destruction via inhabiting new body that they creates

 

[Zabazab]

So the issue is do the verse have implication of Spirit survives destruction via inhabiting new body that they creates

They destroy and then create a new body every day. Materializing a physical body is taxing, so they only tend to take a physical form for things like fights, and when they no longer need it they dematerialize it. Puck, who's on a 9-5 shift, does this daily.

Puck seemed satisfied by this and smiled, he then started disappearing with no warning.

“…Suddenly disappearing like that is a real bad habit of his. It was quite the shock back then.”

She was used to the sight now, but it was terribly surprising when she first saw it. Spirits could freely control the formation and disintegration of their bodies from atmospheric mana.

Not knowing this, Emilia was driven to tears when Puck suddenly disappeared with no explanation. She still remembered how angry she was when Puck just showed up like nothing happened the very next day. —Bond of Ice, Chapter 2, "I Am Here"

It's also why aside from attacking their soul directly, the other way to kill a spirit is to keep destroying their mana-body until they exhaust their soul's mana from regenerating over and over.