Re Zero Discussion Thread: Season 4 is Real

[ZERO7772]

Spoiler: WN

Yae jobbed in a 1v1 against Rem

Plot armor is real

 

[Zabazab]

Yae would have won, Rem just used a cheat to cancel being decapitated. Maybe Compression or Soul Marriage, we can't really know right now. But I adore Yae, she was a great addition to the main story.

 

[Fezzih_007]

My Queen

I not sure I understand Yae final technique tho, did she have a steel thread on her mouth? She used with her tongue.

 

[ZERO7772]

Bro if Subaru was around, Rem would have died 10 times by now

 

[Zabazab]

A twenty-first ring on her tongue, yeah.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Damn, I can't imagine how unconfortable for her that is, considering she have to talk with that on her tongue.

 

[ZERO7772]

Did Rem die at all ever since she woke up from her coma?

 

[Zabazab]

Yeah. She was killed by the Magic Crystal Cannon twice, then died numerous times alongside the Empire's destruction.

 

[ZERO7772]

Yeah. She was killed by the Magic Crystal Cannon twice, then died numerous times alongside the Empire's destruction.

When was that? I did read most of arc 8 with brain shutdown.

 

[Zabazab]

When was that? I did read most of arc 8 with brain shutdown.

Volume 35 & Volume 38

 

[Zabazab]

With magic anything is possible! (Rezero, law manipulation and subjective reality addition to magic)

Magic in rezero can manipulate laws: Magic is the process of imposing one’s will on reality by manipulating mana to override natural laws (Arc 9 phase 1) Magic is essentially the deliberate rewriting of reality and meddling with logic to reshape the natural order of the world, where the...

vsbattles.com

 

[Fezzih_007]

With magic anything is possible! (Rezero, law manipulation and subjective reality addition to magic)

Magic in rezero can manipulate laws: Magic is the process of imposing one’s will on reality by manipulating mana to override natural laws (Arc 9 phase 1) Magic is essentially the deliberate rewriting of reality and meddling with logic to reshape the natural order of the world, where the...

vsbattles.com

Wow, someone actually did a CRT for that.

 

[Trxyway]

Wow, someone actually did a CRT for that.

About time

 

[Fezzih_007]

Re:ZERO Magic being this meme is kinda funny for me.

 

[Zabazab]

Re:ZERO Magic being this meme is kinda funny for me.

It's peak, we had hardly any magic lore before this I love hearing all the names and explanations for magical theories as if Roz-chi and Ezzo are passionate scientists

 

[ZERO7772]

Volume 35 & Volume 38

Thank you sir.

 

[Antvasima]

Hello.

What do you all think about this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Beatrice_(Re:Zero)

 

[MrTayman616]

Hello.

What do you all think about this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Beatrice_(Re:Zero)

It should just be Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation i guess.

But is it fine to do it without a CRT? If so, Olbart's "Spatial Manipulation (His kicks can split space itself)" is also wrong. It doesn't refer to space itself, but the gap between him and Garfiel here. It's obvious in english version as well, just taken out of context in the scan.

Garfiel raised an eyebrow at the missing arm, and the old man shook his leg at the same time.

A moment later, not knowing what he had done, a horizontal sweeping kick drew a deep line in the earth.It also split the space between Garfiel and the old man, and the rebels to his back.

And then, the old man turned to the rebels on the other side of the line and spoke.

Old Man: “Try steppin’ over that line ta get over here. You’re all gonna die.”

He just made a line with his kick.

 

[Antvasima]

If they are just minor changes, I think that I can probably accept them on my own, but if there is another staff member here as well, that would be preferable.

 

[MrTayman616]

If they are just minor changes, I think that I can probably accept them on my own, but if there is another staff member here as well, that would be preferable.

Both of them just loses one ability which they just had one justification for.

Though, it might be better to hear someone else's opinion regardless.

 

[Antvasima]

Which, if any, other staff members have participated in this thread?

 

[MrTayman616]

Which, if any, other staff members have participated in this thread?

Celestial_Pegasus.

Hearing Zabazab's opinion would also be fine imo, one of the knowledgeable member when it comes to Re:Zero. (Also considering it's just a minor change)

 

[Antvasima]

Hello.

What do you all think about this?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Talk:Beatrice_(Re:Zero)

It should just be Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation i guess.

But is it fine to do it without a CRT? If so, Olbart's "Spatial Manipulation (His kicks can split space itself)" is also wrong. It doesn't refer to space itself, but the gap between him and Garfiel here. It's obvious in english version as well, just taken out of context in the scan.

He just made a line with his kick.

Both of them just loses one ability which they just had one justification for.

Though, it might be better to hear someone else's opinion regardless.

Which, if any, other staff members have participated in this thread?

Never mind.

@Celestial_Pegasus @Elizhaa @Abstractions

What do you think about this?

 

[Antvasima]

Celestial_Pegasus.

Hearing Zabazab's opinion would also be fine imo, one of the knowledgeable member when it comes to Re:Zero. (Also considering it's just a minor change)

@Zabazab

Would you also be willing to help out here please?

 

[Zabazab]

Would you also be willing to help out here please?

Yeah Olbart Dunkelkenn's kick was not spatial manipulation, he divided the space in the same way a curtain can divide space in a room. The line in the sand his kick created just expresses the difference in the space where he'll leave them alone or attack.


As for whether Beatrice's Ul Shamak is black hole creation, I would say that it is. Note that either way, it could not scale to her AP in any way.

First, I do not think it matters whether "black hole" was written in kanji or as the english loan-word katakana, as in Re:Zero, english loan-words do not exist in-universe and can only originate from people who know modern japanese such as Subaru or Aldebaran. The scene was not from any particular person's POV, nor does it seem coloured by a specific character's thoughts, so using kanji to write out "black hole", which is typically unusual, makes sense in this context.

Second, the spell's behaviour cannot be pinned down beyond its attempt to swallow Reid Astrea, who was closest to it, but it was immediately extinguished by Reid using a dimension-cutting slash, so it's lifespan was so short that it isn't described much. Beyond that, we know that the black hole was twisting space around it, and it appears to be pulling on Reid which he describes as "a breeze", which is in line with how it would behave.

Lastly, I'm not sure why Ul Shamak being a black hole or pseudo-black would make it "stronger" than Al Shamak. Al Shamak opens a hole to an entirely different empty dimension and sends the target there to never be seen again. I do not think creating a black hole would necessarily be "stronger" than that effect, narratively.

I don't know if there are stronger arguments than this, but at the very least I'm unconvinced by these ones. Additionally, in a few months, the fourth season will air which should be adapting this scene, and hopefully will give visual clarity here.

 

[MrTayman616]

As for whether Beatrice's Ul Shamak is black hole creation, I would say that it is. Note that either way, it could not scale to her AP in any way.

First, I do not think it matters whether "black hole" was written in kanji or as the english loan-word katakana, as in Re:Zero, english loan-words do not exist in-universe and can only originate from people who know modern japanese such as Subaru or Aldebaran. The scene was not from any particular person's POV, nor does it seem coloured by a specific character's thoughts, so using kanji to write out "black hole", which is typically unusual, makes sense in this context.

Second, the spell's behaviour cannot be pinned down beyond its attempt to swallow Reid Astrea, who was closest to it, but it was immediately extinguished by Reid using a dimension-cutting slash, so it's lifespan was so short that it isn't described much. Beyond that, we know that the black hole was twisting space around it, and it appears to be pulling on Reid which he describes as "a breeze", which is in line with how it would behave.

Lastly, I'm not sure why Ul Shamak being a black hole or pseudo-black would make it "stronger" than Al Shamak. Al Shamak opens a hole to an entirely different empty dimension and sends the target there to never be seen again. I do not think creating a black hole would necessarily be "stronger" than that effect, narratively.

I don't know if there are stronger arguments than this, but at the very least I'm unconvinced by these ones. Additionally, in a few months, the fourth season will air which should be adapting this scene, and hopefully will give visual clarity here.

I disagree. While the verse has shown the kanji and katakana difference, it doesn't matter here.

In Aldebaran vs Reinhard, his ability is directly compared to a Black Hole, which ブラックホール is used.

Not to mention, Beatrice's ability didn't really show much to be accepted as one. It didn't show singularity or anything, nor implied to have such pulling strength. Just Spatial manipulation and Gravity Manipulation.

While Aldebaran's is directly compared to one and has shown extreme gravititional force, warping space and singularity ig.

It should be removed from her profile as there isn't really much to support it to begin with.

 

[Zabazab]

In Aldebaran vs Reinhard, his ability is directly compared to a Black Hole, which ブラックホール is used.

That chapter's narration is strongly coloured by Aldebaran's perspective, who knows modern japanese. In contrast, the chapter with Betty's does not appear to be coloured by Subaru.

It didn't show singularity or anything, nor implied to have such pulling strength. Just Spatial manipulation and Gravity Manipulation.

Having a gravitational pull and twisting space around it are themselves evidence of it behaving as a black hole.

Beyond that, we know that the black hole was twisting space around it, and it appears to be pulling on Reid which he describes as "a breeze", which is in line with how it would behave.

 

[MrTayman616]

That chapter's narration is strongly coloured by Aldebaran's perspective, who knows modern japanese. In contrast, the chapter with Betty's does not appear to be coloured by Subaru.

The narrative acts the same as Aldebaran's here. Not different in any way.

Having a gravitational pull and twisting space around it are themselves evidence of it behaving as a black hole.

But the fact that it isn't really compared to one is enough to disregard it.

That Black Hole swallowed Reid and he escaped via slashing it, without suffering or anything like that while Reinhard lost his arm because of the destructiveness of a black hole.

It was an attempt to just move Reid to somewhere else based on context as well. Rather than destroying him with a singularity.

Beatrice: “――Ul Shamak.”

The moment immediately after Beatrice’s chant had achieved completion, what arose in the space wasan enormous black hole.

That which had appeared all of a sudden in the air, manifested as an existence accompanied by primordial fear such as its unknown bounds and unknown depths, and tried to swallow Reid, who was right beforeit.

Subaru: “That, is…”At a single glance, it could be understood that it was a great magic that affected space.

This was more of an issue of imaging it so, rather than having knowledge about it. Subaru had heard of Beatrice being a wasteful Spirit, but the actual power held by truly great magic could not even be in the same league of comparison.

Subaru had been unaware, that this was even possible. This was, a harvest.

That black hole swallowed Reid, and repelled away his Sword Saint off to somewhere unknown――

It also suits the way of Shamak.

 

[Fezzih_007]

It should just be Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation i guess.

But is it fine to do it without a CRT? If so, Olbart's "Spatial Manipulation (His kicks can split space itself)" is also wrong. It doesn't refer to space itself, but the gap between him and Garfiel here. It's obvious in english version as well, just taken out of context in the scan.

He just made a line with his kick.

I am in agreement with MrTay here, Olbart "spartial manipulation" is kinda misleading.

The Black Hole argument seems interessing, but I leaning towards TayTay opinion too.

Mainly because on how is described.

That black hole swallowed Reid, and repelled away his Sword Saint off to somewhere unknown――

Seems pretty clear cut to me.

 

[Zabazab]

The narrative acts the same as Aldebaran's here. Not different in any way.

It does not. Re:Zero typically swaps between being written in third-person, third-person limited, and very rarely first-person. The scene with Betty was third-person, and the scene with Aldebaran was third-person limited.

That Black Hole swallowed Reid and he escaped via slashing it

No it did not. It attempted to swallow him and he slashed it first. He was never swallowed by it. First of all the scene was slightly rewritten from the Web Novel which you quoted, and second of all that last line is a common writing choice by Tappei where he describes something you expect to happen, before betraying that expectation.

Clasping both her hands, using all of Subaru’s paltry MP, Beatrice activated a big spell to manipulate space itself.
“Ul Shamak.”
Right after her incantation finished, a massive black hole appeared.
An endless, bottomless, black hole evoking a primordial fear attempted to swallow Reid whole and send him to the great beyond.
Space twisted, and Beatrice’s spell—
“What is this, a breeze? There’s nothing special about a breeze you can find anywhere. You think that’ll stop me?”
Reid casually silenced the massive spell with a single swing of his chopstick.
Dimension Slash—an attack so powerful that anyone else would consider it their ultimate move, and Reid used it incredibly casually. The slash’s blast wave raced toward Subaru and Beatrice. –Volume 25 Chapter 1

"Send him to the great beyond". This was meant to murderize him.

 

[MrTayman616]

It does not. Re:Zero typically swaps between being written in third-person, third-person limited, and very rarely first-person. The scene with Betty was third-person, and the scene with Aldebaran was third-person limited.

It doesn't look like Beatrice is the third person there at all.

It does not. Re:Zero typically swaps between being written in third-person, third-person limited, and very rarely first-person. The scene with Betty was third-person, and the scene with Aldebaran was third-person limited.


No it did not. It attempted to swallow him and he slashed it first. He was never swallowed by it. First of all the scene was slightly rewritten from the Web Novel which you quoted, and second of all that last line is a common writing choice by Tappei where he describes something you expect to happen, before betraying that expectation.


"Send him to the great beyond". This was meant to murderize him.

This relies on the original english translation of the novel which is just overdramatic. The original line refers to just trying to drag him away in the light novel as well

Webnovel: その黒穴がレイドを呑み込み、彼の『剣聖』をどこへ飛ばしてしまうのか――

Light novel: "それが正面からレイドを呑み込み、彼方(かなた)へ連れ去ろうとする"

They just call it a huge black hole, literally, not a "Black Hole". Beatrice just tries to send him away, both in the webnovel and light novel, which also suits the way of how Shamak works.

UI Shamak has no reason to be accepted as a "Black Hole".

 

[Zabazab]

It doesn't look like Beatrice is the third person there at all.

What? The writing style of the narration in that scene was objectively in third-person perspective.

This relies on the original english translation of the novel which is just overdramatic. The original line refers to just trying to drag him away in the light novel as well

"Sending someone to the other side" is a metaphor for killing them.

Beatrice just tries to send him away, both in the webnovel and light novel, which also suits the way of how Shamak works.

The previous Shamaks where sensory and psychological attacks, while the next stage of shamak sends you to a different world. Neither have such a strong line of theming that this would be out-of-place.

UI Shamak has no reason to be accepted as a "Black Hole".

This is not the debate? It's a debate about indexing the ability as Black Hole Creation. Black Hole Creation covers both true black holes and pseudo-black holes. It'd be ridiculous to index Ul Shamak with the bunch of abilities that black holes have instead of just Black Hole Creation.

 

[Fezzih_007]

The previous Shamaks where sensory and psychological attacks, while the next stage of shamak sends you to a different world. Neither have such a strong line of theming that this would be out-of-place.

Ins't the theme like, disconnect from reality tho?

Like, the first two Shamak affect your senses, making you separate yourself from the world, and the last one literally just do that.

Shamak, which covers the concept of separation from the world, each prefixed spell separates more and more off the target from the world: first the senses of their surroundings, then the senses of their own body, while the strongest Shamak spell, Al Shamak, literally removes a target from the world by opening a rift to an alternate plane of space.

 

[MrTayman616]

What? The writing style of the narration in that scene was objectively in third-person perspective.

The fight is explained the same way with Aldebaran vs Reinhard.

"Sending someone to the other side" is a metaphor for killing them.

Not even closely has that meaning here. Just to the place beyond the warped space. Not some afterlife moment.

The previous Shamaks where sensory and psychological attacks, while the next stage of shamak sends you to a different world. Neither have such a strong line of theming that this would be out-of-place.

while the next stage of shamak sends you to a different world

This warps space and drags you away to beyond the warped space. Suits to Shamak.

This is not the debate? It's a debate about indexing the ability as Black Hole Creation. Black Hole Creation covers both true black holes and pseudo-black holes. It'd be ridiculous to index Ul Shamak with the bunch of abilities that black holes have instead of just Black Hole Creation.

It's not ridiculous, the other logic is basically "they're similar so it's fine even if it's not a black hole" which doesn't suit the standards. It just gets Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation.

Also this type of reasoning is disagreed in the "Black Hole Creation" page to begin with.

 

[Zabazab]

The fight is explained the same way with Aldebaran vs Reinhard.

It's not. This aspect is not part of what can be debated here, it's not up to interpretation, Al vs Reinhard was third-person limited while the scene with Betty was just third-person.

Not even closely has that meaning here. Just to the place beyond the warped space. Not some after life moment.

There is no physical place beyond, its an endlessly dark abyss.

It's not ridiculous, the other logic is basically "they're similar so it's fine even if it's not a black hole" which doesn't suit the standards. It just gets Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation.

Also this type of reasoning is disagreed in the "Black Hole Creation" page to begin with.

The page distinguishes the differences between true black holes and pseudo-black holes. Both are still Black Hole Creation, just as how supernatural or unrealistic lightning and light are still electricity and light manilulation.

 

[MrTayman616]

It's not. This aspect is not part of what can be debated here, it's not up to interpretation, Al vs Reinhard was third-person limited while the scene with Betty was just third-person.

Definitely not the case.

There is no physical place beyond, its an endlessly dark abyss.

Dunno what you mean by this.

The page distinguishes the differences between true black holes and pseudo-black holes. Both are still Black Hole Creation, just as how supernatural or unrealistic lightning and light are still electricity and light manilulation.

It should also be noted that, even if the projectile resembles a black hole and shares the same basic function, it does not automatically qualify to be a real black hole.

Beatrice's ability doesn't apply as one to begin with.

Has shown no real feat of being one or similar. Just sends him away which he handled it via dimension slash. Heck, it didn't even do anything to him, which is different than what Aldebaran's did, completely destroying Reinhard's hand.

It completely works different, not just a case of anti-feat but literally just warps space to take the opponent away.

There is simply no real reason for Beatrice to actually have the ability at all.

It's just Spatial Manipulation and Gravity Manipulation.

 

[Zabazab]

Definitely not the case.

Yes it is. The scene is blatantly written in the third-person. I'm sure you know the differences between writing in first- second- and third-person.

Just sends him away which he handled it via dimension slash. Heck, it didn't even do anything to him, which is different than what Aldebaran's did, completely destroying Reinhard's hand.

Ul Shamak did not touch Reid. He expunged it before the spell could do anything.

 

[MrTayman616]

Yes it is. The scene is blatantly written in the third-person. I'm sure you know the differences between writing in first- second- and third-person.

I meant Betty, rather than Third Person

Ul Shamak did not touch Reid. He expunged it before the spell could do anything.

Gravitational force i'd expect, though it can be reality appeal.

It doesn't even matter though as there is no mention of singularity, no mention of it being created thanks to gravity manipulation or nothing remotely similar. Beatrice warping space, that's literally it.

Both webnovel and light novel just refers to sending him away

At a single glance, it could be understood that it was a great magic that affected space.

This was more of an issue of imaging it so, rather than having knowledge about it. Subaru had heard of Beatrice being a wasteful Spirit, but the actual power held by truly great magic could not even be in thesame league of comparison.Subaru had been unaware, that this was even possible. This was, a harvest.

That black hole swallowed Reid, and repelled away his Sword Saint off to somewhere unknown――

Which isn't different than the light novel. It literally just sends him away, not afterlife or anything.

 

[Zabazab]

I meant Betty, rather than Third Person

I don't know what you're saying. The scene with Betty was in third-person, the scene with Al was in third-person limited.

It doesn't even matter though as there is no mention of singularity, no mention of it being created thanks to gravity manipulation or nothing remotely similar. Beatrice warping space, that's literally it.

A massive black hole that twists space around it and pulls others towards it and has no other context as it got deleted by dimension slash before it could do anything. That's a pseudo-black hole, i.e a black hole-like phenomenon which is not truly a black hole or otherwise does to meet the wiki's standards for true black holes, and are still indexed under Black Hole Creation. It just wouldn't be granted the natural properties real black holes have and would be unusable for calculations and the like.

 

[MrTayman616]

I don't know what you're saying. The scene with Betty was in third-person, the scene with Al was in third-person limited.

I was referring to Beatrice there

A massive black hole that twists space around it and pulls others towards it and has no other context as it got deleted by dimension slash before it could do anything. That's a pseudo-black hole, i.e a black hole-like phenomenon which is not truly a black hole or otherwise does to meet the wiki's standards for true black holes, and are still indexed under Black Hole Creation. It just wouldn't be granted the natural properties real black holes have and would be unusable for calculations and the like.

Black Hole Creation is a subset of Gravity Manipulation that allows the user to generate black holes, regions of space-time with gravity so intense that even light cannot escape them

It's not a region of space time with intense gravity or anything. There isn't even enough explanation for it.

Literally all we see is Beatrice twisting space, causing a black hole that she uses to shallow Reid and drag him away. By no means that is enough to get "Black Hole Creation" regardless if it's a real one or not.

Just Spatial Manipulation, and seemingly Gravity Manipulation based on the "shallow".

If you think your description of "Black Hole Creation" and her ability is correct based on what we both sent here, the staff would make comment on it regardless of what i say anyway, so we're actually arguing for nothing.