Re-examining Aizen's Existence Erasure & Resistances

[AppleLord]

Why do so many people still refer Souls in Bleach as Spirits? A minor nitpick but they are still all souls, every Object has a soul, The air,Water,Ground,Humans,Shinigami.
Idk if we define Spirit and Soul Differently on here but a lot of Religions separate the two.
So is Spirit=Soul on vswiki?

In the early arcs of Bleach souls aka Konpakus were refer to as spirits. Is one and the same.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

I do not think it is because they just so happen to be specially resistant to having their existences erased, but because their spirits are more than strong enough to the point where they wouldn't be vulnerable to that effect of Aizen's spiritual energy.

I don't get the issue here
This argument inherently says Aizen has erasure on him and that people without a powerful spirit will be erased
If it's about the soul needing to be strong, then it's valid hax
Soul resistance to match Aizen allows survival of the hax, but doesn't change what it does
Someone of a superior tier to Aizen but with no soul or erasure resistance would get destroyed

 

[DaimaouAshura]

But so long as the thread is about objects and wording and not implying if people are strong they don't need resistance to survive it, I don't see a problem

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

The Feats

To explain my thought process on this, I'll go over Aizen's feats for this in order:

1) Aizen comes across some humans in Karakura Town and basically walks through them. They can't sense how powerful he is, but his sheer amount of spiritual energy is more than what their spirits can withstand so any humans that he passes through get their bodies cleanly erased. [Chapter 409]

- Aizen states: "Don't come near me. Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

2) Don Kanonji charges foolishly at Aizen who warns him against such action, saying that any human who comes into contact with him will "cease to exist", and the tip of Don Kanonji's staff begins to be erased as proof of this. [Chapter 411]

- Aizen states: "Don't. Any human who comes into contact with me will cease to exist."

3) While Aizen is mostly sealed inside Soul Society's prison (after Aizen has been imprisoned there for over a year, and has grown more powerful than before) one of the prison guard dudes accompanying Shunsui foolishly approaches Aizen and gets his hands erased after approaching too closely. [Chapter 618]

- Aizen states: "Such gross carelessness. These restraints do not eliminate my spiritual pressure. They only keep it near me. I don't have to tell you what will happen if you try to touch me."

So Aizen's spiritual energy after achieving a transcendental state is so powerful that mere humans will be erased by close contact even though they can't sense his power, and after he's grown even more powerful later in the series even a Shinigami was partially erased after getting too close to Aizen.

Note that nowhere in the scans does it say "Anything" will be erased, which is what our current justification claims.

1/2) I think it is important to contextualize the fact that while Aizen was erasing humans he was nerfing himself to the point where Tatsuki and Keigo could sense him. Again we see the extents at which Aizen is nerfing himself when Don Kanonji can sense and withstand his reiatsu too. Don Kanonji being someone who is barely fodder Hollow level, fodder Hollows being something the FKT Gotei 13 + Aizen's forces can pop from 13 miles away (considering Aizen solos his Espada and all the Captains, this RC is practically all base Yama and base Aizen, and I presume I don't need to explain how much stronger 3rd fusion Aizen is from base). Hell, even upon reaching his 4th fusion Aizen is still suppressing himself to the point Tatsuki can sense him. Aizen keeping himself massively suppressed is something he confirms himself before losing to Ichigo. I won't bore y'all with a narrative break down of Deicide arc Aizen, as I'm sure it is obvious that Aizen was overcome with arrogance, underestimating everyone around him time and time again.

3) I think this is fine and contextualized in its entirety. Aizen after being humbled by Ichigo no longer retains his god-complex arrogance he had before, and thus makes his statement far more general.

So, I hope my issue is starting to become clear. The reason Aizen mentions just humans during the Deicide chapters is not indicative of a limit to his ability, but rather it was because of the given context. Aizen had nerfed himself to the point where his RC was less potent than roughly base Yama's and base Aizen's combined RC. He even states himself he lowered it to the point where humans with even an inkling of spirit energy could interfere. It is for that reason that I don't think Aizen's Deicide arc feats can serve as limiters to his short-ranged EE aura at all. In the same way hyper casual feats don't limit a character's scaling in terms of statistics (an extreme example being Vegito Blue destroying buildings), Deicide arc Aizen's massively suppressed feats don't limit his hax either. This is then supported when Aizen transitions to more broad and general statements with aura when talking with Shunsui regarding the guard and Shunsui getting near.

Supporting Points

Now, I don't believe this is a universal application of Aizen's spiritual power. It's very easy to boil things down to just "hax" and say "If Aizen can erase one person's body / soul, then his aura of spiritual pressure ignores durability completely and will erase anyone and everyone [unless they're somehow resistant to it]".

But I don't think that is what is happening here.

Aizen says in the first two examples that "humans can't withstand his spiritual energy" and "any human in contact with him will cease to exist." Why mention humans? It's not because his spiritual energy only works on humans but because they're just so absolutely weak compared to Aizen that they're the ones who are going to be erased. They're bottom of the barrel. The gap could not be larger between them.

However characters with stronger spirits, AKA Shinigami, will not be affected to that degree.

1) One supporting points for this is when we see a character who is spiritual stronger than a human come into contact with Aizen, the effect is far less pronoucned. Gin gets swatted by Aizen as he's betraying him and trying to steal the Hogyoku from Aizen, but when we see the damage to Gin's arm, only a small portion of his arm has been erased. Compared to when a human had half his body simply wiped out up above in the first example.

To me, this seems to be because the difference between Gin and Aizen, while still monumental, was not enough to Aizen's spiritual energy to simply erase him completely.

Not a special resistance; just a difference in the gaps of spiritual energy between the characters.

I may have jumped the gun above, but what I said above strongly applies here. Aizen has been massively suppressing himself as I proved above, and even admits to being simply curious as to how Gin would betray him. The extent of his arrogance was so vast he let Gin get a free hit. Then not even touching Gin's arm he starts to erase it as you've pointed out. But then Aizen evolves and and reaches perhaps his peak of arrogance, believing his finally transcended all. The only reason Gin would be able to pierce Aizen to begin with is if Aizen had lowered his reiatsu to Gin levels, likely even lower considering fodder humans can interfere by Aizen's own admission. For that reason, I don't think Gin works as a debunk either.

2) Another supporting point is that when Aizen actually faces down people who are relatively comparable or superior to him, such as Ichigo or Yhwach, he doesn't erase even a little bit of their body, unlike Gin's in the above example.

I do not think it is because they just so happen to be specially resistant to having their existences erased, but because their spirits are more than strong enough to the point where they wouldn't be vulnerable to that effect of Aizen's spiritual energy.

I think this actually supports Aizen's EE, he was able to start erasing Gin (but Gin escaped before it could happen) when he was dying and nerfing himself to the point where Gin could injure him (i.e. in this instance Gin and Aizen are somewhat relative). However, Yhwach and Ichigo who are relative to Aizen don't get erased.

3) Lastly, Aizen's wording of humans being unable to "withstand his spiritual energy" is similar to how Don Kanonji (with only a little amount of energy) was able to stand within Aizen's presence for a minute or so before finally being overwhelmed just by Aizen's passive aura. Aizen commended him for "withstanding his spiritual energy" for as long as he did.

In much the same way as how even an ant like Don Kanonji can withstand Aizen's passive spiritual energy for a short while, the same would apply to the other effects of Aizen's spiritual energy. Of course Don Kanonji's spiritual energy alone is not sufficient to prevent him from being erased by Aizen but for characters who do not suffer from this monumental gap in strength, Aizen's energy would not have the same effect on them.

I addressed this in my initial argument.

My counter-proposal would be to reword Aizen's passive EE to represent that it is practically at the range of touch. As we see consistently that the EE is far within arm's reach of Aizen with the bottle, Don's staff, and in Muken as you showed.

 

[skippy]

In the early arcs of Bleach souls aka Konpakus were refer to as spirits. Is one and the same.

Well 魂魄 or Konpaku can translate as Soul or Spirit, idk which it was officially translated as when it was mentioned first.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't get the issue here
This argument inherently says Aizen has erasure on him and that people without a powerful spirit will be erased
If it's about the soul needing to be strong, then it's valid hax
Soul resistance to match Aizen allows survival of the hax, but doesn't change what it does
Someone of a superior tier to Aizen but with no soul or erasure resistance would get destroyed

The issue is that they're not resisting the existence erasure itself. They're just not weak enough for the root cause of the existence erasure to affect them in that way.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

The issue is that they're not resisting the existence erasure itself. They're just not weak enough for the root cause of the existence erasure to affect them in that way.

Their spirit is not weak enough
If the erasure is based on spiritual pressure, and every word revolving around the power speaks of one's spirit/soul not withstanding the power, then it's hax that is erasing from the soul depth, in essence
But repeating myself, so long as the thread is about wording and not implying if people are just strong they don't need something like erasure or soul resistance to survive it, I don't see a problem

 

[Damage3245]

So, I hope my issue is starting to become clear. The reason Aizen mentions just humans during the Deicide chapters is not indicative of a limit to his ability, but rather it was because of the given context. Aizen had nerfed himself to the point where his RC was less potent than roughly base Yama's and base Aizen's combined RC. He even states himself he lowered it to the point where humans with even an inkling of spirit energy could interfere. It is for that reason that I don't think Aizen's Deicide arc feats can serve as limiters to his short-ranged EE aura at all. In the same way hyper casual feats don't limit a character's scaling in terms of statistics (an extreme example being Vegito Blue destroying buildings), Deicide arc Aizen's massively suppressed feats don't limit his hax either. This is then supported when Aizen transitions to more broad and general statements with aura when talking with Shunsui regarding the guard and Shunsui getting near.

I wasn't arguing that Aizen's ability was limited exclusively to humans. But just because you're saying "his feats being done while massively suppressed doesn't limit him to just those feats" doesn't mean the inverse is also true. Aizen's existence erasure should not be taken to have no limits due to the content of Aizen's statements.

Aizen has been massively suppressing himself as I proved above, and even admits to being simply curious as to how Gin would betray him. The extent of his arrogance was so vast he let Gin get a free hit. Then not even touching Gin's arm he starts to erase it as you've pointed out. But then Aizen evolves and and reaches perhaps his peak of arrogance, believing his finally transcended all. The only reason Gin would be able to pierce Aizen to begin with is if Aizen had lowered his reiatsu to Gin levels, likely even lower considering fodder humans can interfere by Aizen's own admission. For that reason, I don't think Gin works as a debunk either.

Well, it still works as a debunk even if everything you said there is true. Aizen may very well have lowered his durability & his spiritual energy so that Gin could hurt him, maybe / maybe not. But that still goes to show that the effects of his existence erasure can be decreased.

Meaning it isn't a universal no-limits ability.

I think this actually supports Aizen's EE, he was able to start erasing Gin (but Gin escaped before it could happen) when he was dying and nerfing himself to the point where Gin could injure him (i.e. in this instance Gin and Aizen are somewhat relative). However, Yhwach and Ichigo who are relative to Aizen don't get erased.

I'm not arguing that Aizen doesn't have Existence Erasure.

My counter-proposal would be to reword Aizen's passive EE to represent that it is practically at the range of touch. As we see consistently that the EE is far within arm's reach of Aizen with the bottle, Don's staff, and in Muken as you showed.

My proposal is still to put it as Limited Passive Existence Erasure, with a note for close-range contact, like how you've put it.

 

[Damage3245]

Their spirit is not weak enough
If the erasure is based on spiritual pressure, and every word revolving around the power speaks of one's spirit/soul not withstanding the power, then it's hax that is erasing from the soul depth, in essence
But repeating myself, so long as the thread is about wording and not implying if people are just strong they don't need something like erasure or soul resistance to survive it, I don't see a problem

I'm not arguing that it's based solely on AP. If somebody blows up a planet with a laser or a punch, I'm arguing that is what lets them survive being near Aizen's aura.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

I'm not arguing that it's based solely on AP. If somebody blows up a planet with a laser or a punch, I'm arguing that is what lets them survive being near Aizen's aura.

Gonna ask if this is really what you meant or if I'm being blind to a joke somewhere, because the two quotes seem contrary to each other lmao

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I wasn't arguing that Aizen's ability was limited exclusively to humans. But just because you're saying "his feats being done while massively suppressed doesn't limit him to just those feats" doesn't mean the inverse is also true. Aizen's existence erasure should not be taken to have no limits due to the content of Aizen's statements.

Well, it still works as a debunk even if everything you said there is true. Aizen may very well have lowered his durability & his spiritual energy so that Aizen could hurt him, maybe / maybe not. But that still goes to show that the effects of his existence erasure can be decreased.

Meaning it isn't a universal no-limits ability.

I've got mixed thoughts on this. Primarily, due to the mechanics of how Bleach hax works. In which the only time we are told or shown that hax doesn't work is when you are vastly stronger than the character with the hax. So, I am not applying a no limits fallacy to Aizen's hax, as I acknowledge if a character in Bleach was far superior to Aizen they could power null it.

I'm not arguing that Aizen doesn't have Existence Erasure.

I meant this supports Ichigo and Yhwach resisting it.

My proposal is still to put it as Limited Passive Existence Erasure, with a note for close-range contact, like how you've put it.

What are your thoughts on a "possibly" rating for Yhwach and Ichigo's resistance, because I see where your coming from with the it's hard with Aizen cuz most of the time he's fighting people weaker than him, but I think the mechanics of Bleach hax warrant at least the consideration that they have those resistances.

 

[Damage3245]

I've got mixed thoughts on this. Primarily, due to the mechanics of how Bleach hax works. In which the only time we are told or shown that hax doesn't work is when you are vastly stronger than the character with the hax. So, I am not applying a no limits fallacy to Aizen's hax, as I acknowledge if a character in Bleach was far superior to Aizen they could power null it.

I think we may be looking at it too much through a VSBW-lens if we're assuming there a single set of consistent mechanics for how all hax in a particular verse works.

Sometimes power systems just aren't consistent or all follow the same rules, but I get what you mean.

I meant this supports Ichigo and Yhwach resisting it.

I see.

What are your thoughts on a "possibly" rating for Yhwach and Ichigo's resistance, because I see where your coming from with the it's hard with Aizen cuz most of the time he's fighting people weaker than him, but I think the mechanics of Bleach hax warrant at least the consideration that they have those resistances.

I think I'd rather not at the moment. I don't have a good enough reason to believe that it would work on them in the first place. Aizen's feats (even if performed while intentionally nerfed) and statements don't lead me to that conclusion.

 

[DaimaouAshura]

Ya know, here I always figured that was an inherent soul erasure resistance as byproduct of their overall spirit power since in Bleach growing stronger is about your soul not the body on its own as it usually goes. But still am unfamiliar with a good number of this wiki's standards on that kind of thing so I'll leave this as my final piece.

 

[Tyri456]

I don’t really see a debunk on this thread, Aizen for once was suppressing himself with the other humans, his erasure worked against random shinigami too, it just work very close to him.

people that resist close to him are people that are stronger than him spiritually thus gain the resistance because they spiritually have that property to resist a possible erasure, or we are gonna remove atomic hax form Saint seiya because stronger characters resist atomic hax from weaker or existence erasure from dragon ball because stronger characters resists hakai?

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t really see a debunk on this thread, Aizen for once was suppressing himself with the other humans, his erasure worked against random shinigami too, it just work very close to him.

people that resist close to him are people that are stronger than him spiritually thus gain the resistance because they spiritually have that property to resist a possible erasure, or we are gonna remove atomic hax form Saint seiya because stronger characters resist atomic hax from weaker or existence erasure from dragon ball because stronger characters resists hakai?

I'm not trying to debunk Aizen having existence erasure. I'm trying to look in deeper to the mechanics of it instead of just slapping a hax label on it and calling it a day.

And I don't care about Saint Seiya or Dragon Ball as far as this thread goes.

 

[Arcker123]

So Aizen's spiritual energy after achieving a transcendental state is so powerful that mere humans will be erased by close contact even though they can't sense his power, and after he's grown even more powerful later in the series even a Shinigami was partially erased after getting too close to Aizen.

Note that nowhere in the scans does it say "Anything" will be erased, which is what our current justification claims.

I think the first part of the OP is rather uncontroversial and I agree with it so I’ll ignore it. I don’t understand this part though. We see him erase even inanimate bottles that got close to him and Shinigami who got close. It’s clearly not limited to humans and we have feats of it being able to affect much more. I don’t need feats of erasing “anything” in order for it to be treated as such in profiles. As long the erasure doesn’t have a stated weakness that makes it limited to X thing, the Erasure wouldn’t be treated as limited. This is how the wiki treats Hax. Aizen having a weakness that his EE is “human limited” is contradicted by him erasing bottles and even shinigami who got close to him. This isn’t an argument to prove it’s limited or has a weakness. I don’t need a statement like “My erasure can erase anything” or something similar for Aizen, you have to prove that it has a weakness or some limitation that warrants it being listed as limited. We don’t treat Hax as “Limited until proven otherwise” like you’re implying, we treat it the opposite way. Aizen’s EE affecting shinigami, human, and object alike shows how it warrants the “anything” that’s used in the EE justification.

Now, I don't believe this is a universal application of Aizen's spiritual power. It's very easy to boil things down to just "hax" and say "If Aizen can erase one person's body / soul, then his aura of spiritual pressure ignores durability completely and will erase anyone and everyone [unless they're somehow resistant to it]".

This is how the Wiki treats Hax. EE is inherently dura negation and Hax. You have to prove that it has a weakness otherwise the “erase anyone” is how it’s treated.

Aizen says in the first two examples that "humans can't withstand his spiritual energy" and "any human in contact with him will cease to exist." Why mention humans? It's not because his spiritual energy only works on humans but because they're just so absolutely weak compared to Aizen that they're the ones who are going to be erased. They're bottom of the barrel. The gap could not be larger between them.

Or they just lack resistance to the EE and Aizen knows. Again mentions humans specifically because that’s who he’s interacting with. You have to justify your interpretation (He mentions humans because they're weaker) over mine (He mentions humans because they don’t have resistance and those who they are interacting with) otherwise this argument doesn’t go through on Hitchens Razor as you haven’t justified one possibility over another.

1) One supporting points for this is when we see a character who is spiritual stronger than a human come into contact with Aizen, the effect is far less pronoucned. Gin gets swatted by Aizen as he's betraying him and trying to steal the Hogyoku from Aizen, but when we see the damage to Gin's arm, only a small portion of his arm has been erased. Compared to when a human had half his body simply wiped out up above in the first example.

I don’t think this is a fair comparison. You’re comparing the EE of a dying Aizen who’s about to undergo evolution, to a healthy Aizens EE. It isn’t honest to use this as a reliable anti feat or proof for your argument that the EE only affects weaker characters. The reason Gin was relatively unaffected could just be that Aizen was just greatly weaker as a result of getting his heart (the source of his Reiatsu and thus EE) destroyed, getting the Hogyoku stolen, and being about to undergo evolution into another form. Again, you need to justify why your interpretation that it was just due to power that Gin survived and took less, is true, rather than just being Aizen’s EE was vastly weaker in potency due to all of the factors I outlined. Gin only got close to Aizen in this state.

There’s also an argument to be made that Gin wasn’t affected by the EE at all when he got wounded. Gin just got his arm smacked by Aizen and that’s why we see the wound in the way that it is, not because of the EE. If he wasn’t even EE’d this wouldn’t even be an argument for your claim the EE has a weakness if the EE wasn’t even involved in the creation of the wound.

Gin was also not in the EE range for long and also quickly escaped. That could explain the lesser wound.

Aizen was also massively suppressing himself even without his injuries (as arc showed), so that doesn’t help your case.

With all of this In conjunction, I don’t think Gin is a good argument for Aizen having a weakness at all.

2) Another supporting point is that when Aizen actually faces down people who are relatively comparable or superior to him, such as Ichigo or Yhwach, he doesn't erase even a little bit of their body, unlike Gin's in the above example.

I do not think it is because they just so happen to be specially resistant to having their existences erased, but because their spirits are more than strong enough to the point where they wouldn't be vulnerable to that effect of Aizen's spiritual energy.

This isn’t proof of a weakness. Let’s say there were 2 High 6-A characters in a verse of 9-A characters, he has passive matter Hax that allows him to atomize everyone in his vicinity. These people would all be 9-A. Let’s say this High 6-A fight’s another High 6-A and the two are relative to each other, but the matter Hax doesn’t affect the High 6-A. We wouldn’t say that this means the matter Hax has a weakness that it can’t affect relative characters, we would say the other High 6-A has resistance to matter Hax. The point being made here is that we don’t need feats of it affecting relative characters, you need explicit evidence that it has the weakness of being unable to affect relative characters because of strength, otherwise we treat it as legit dura negating Hax. In this example, Aizen is the character with matter Hax, Ichigo and Yhwach are the other High 6-A. The fact it wasn’t shown working on relative opponents isn’t proof it can’t affect stronger opponents, it just means the people who weren’t affected have resistance. Again, you have to prove weakness or it’s just resistance. EE is inherently durability negation. This entire counter argument isn’t proof of anything you’re trying to argue and is useless as it doesn’t prove weakness, it proves resistance.

You have no justification in assuming that this is a weakness of the EE or that it was because of “the strength of their spirits.” This is just a resistance feat for Ichigo and Yhwach.

3) Lastly, Aizen's wording of humans being unable to "withstand his spiritual energy" is similar to how Don Kanonji (with only a little amount of energy) was able to stand within Aizen's presence for a minute or so before finally being overwhelmed just by Aizen's passive aura. Aizen commended him for "withstanding his spiritual energy" for as long as he did.

In much the same way as how even an ant like Don Kanonji can withstand Aizen's passive spiritual energy for a short while, the same would apply to the other effects of Aizen's spiritual energy. Of course Don Kanonji's spiritual energy alone is not sufficient to prevent him from being erased by Aizen but for characters who do not suffer from this monumental gap in strength, Aizen's energy would not have the same effect on them.

This is entirely useless as a point. Don Kanonji wasn’t affected by the EE. As shown with the bottle example, even in Deicide, Aizen’s EE only works close to his body. Aizen is reiatsu crushing Don here, he was not affecting him with the EE. It’s impossible for him to have done that as his EE doesn’t have the range to do that. He found Don not kissing the ground as soon as he pulled up a very impressive feat. This entire point is an irrelevant red herring as it doesn’t even involve the EE. Aizen was also suppressed.

Proposal

1) We reword Aizen's ability to something like this:


2) We remove the resistances to existence erasure from Aizen, Ichigo and Yhwach for this. They're not resisting the existence erasure itself, they're not just weak enough to the point where Aizen's energy would significantly affect them like humans or low-level Shinigami.

I don’t think you’ve given any good reason to think the EE is power related. You don’t have any statements to that affect, and all of your “anti feats” are really questionable. You haven’t given good enough reason to think that the EE has an inability to affect strong people. Aizen should still have his EE (It won’t be limited) and Ichigo and Yhwach keep their resistance.

I think it’s good to specify Aizen’s EE has low range however.

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t think you’ve given any good reason to think the EE is power related. You don’t have any statements to that affect

Literally Aizen's first statement.

I'll get to the rest of your post soonish.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I think we may be looking at it too much through a VSBW-lens if we're assuming there a single set of consistent mechanics for how all hax in a particular verse works.

Sometimes power systems just aren't consistent or all follow the same rules, but I get what you mean.



I see.



I think I'd rather not at the moment. I don't have a good enough reason to believe that it would work on them in the first place. Aizen's feats (even if performed while intentionally nerfed) and statements don't lead me to that conclusion.

Fair enough, well I've said all I've got to say, so I'm fine concluding with agree to disagree and letting others deliberate the rest. I'll list my proposals for all who care:

Change Aizen's EE to Limited EE (very close range but worded better)

Change Ichigo's and Yhwach's EE resistance to "likely/possibly" (same justification but mention that it's not entirely concrete how it functions against Aizen level opponents)

 

[Arcker123]

Literally Aizen's first statement.

Aizen states: "Don't come near me. Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

Is this what you’re referring too? If it is, I don’t understand how you’re defeating my claim. He’s just saying that humans can’t resist his power (which I take it we both would agree he’s referring to the EE). This isn’t him saying that it can be resisted by strength or something of that nature which is what you’re trying to prove. That doesn’t follow from this scan.

I'll get to the rest of your post soonish.

Cool

 

[Damage3245]

I don’t understand this part though. We see him erase even inanimate bottles that got close to him and Shinigami who got close. It’s clearly not limited to humans and we have feats of it being able to affect much more. I don’t need feats of erasing “anything” in order for it to be treated as such in profiles.

You do in order to avoid misleading justifications. The justification claims "Anything". The statements linked do not support that.

As long the erasure doesn’t have a stated weakness that makes it limited to X thing, the Erasure wouldn’t be treated as limited.

I think it does have a stated weakness, so it should be limited.

Aizen having a weakness that his EE is “human limited” is contradicted by him erasing bottles and even shinigami who got close to him. This isn’t an argument to prove it’s limited or has a weakness.

Never said that his EE is "human limited". Don't put words in my mouth.

I don’t need a statement like “My erasure can erase anything” or something similar for Aizen,

You ought to have something to that effect in order to support the current justification. Instead you don't, you just have assumptions.

you have to prove that it has a weakness or some limitation that warrants it being listed as limited. We don’t treat Hax as “Limited until proven otherwise” like you’re implying, we treat it the opposite way. Aizen’s EE affecting shinigami, human, and object alike shows how it warrants the “anything” that’s used in the EE justification.

I have proven it. How you treat hax is your business, but I don't subscribe to your interpretation of "hax".

This is how the Wiki treats Hax. EE is inherently dura negation and Hax. You have to prove that it has a weakness otherwise the “erase anyone” is how it’s treated.

I'm not arguing that durability is involved here. I've proven that there is a limitation to it.

Or they just lack resistance to the EE and Aizen knows. Again mentions humans specifically because that’s who he’s interacting with. You have to justify your interpretation (He mentions humans because they're weaker) over mine (He mentions humans because they don’t have resistance and those who they are interacting with) otherwise this argument doesn’t go through on Hitchens Razor as you haven’t justified one possibility over another.

I don't need to do anything for your interpretation. Your interpretation has no basis and no supporting evidence.

I don’t think this is a fair comparison. You’re comparing the EE of a dying Aizen who’s about to undergo evolution, to a healthy Aizens EE. It isn’t honest to use this as a reliable anti feat or proof for your argument that the EE only affects weaker characters. The reason Gin was relatively unaffected could just be that Aizen was just greatly weaker as a result of getting his heart (the source of his Reiatsu and thus EE) destroyed, getting the Hogyoku stolen, and being about to undergo evolution into another form. Again, you need to justify why your interpretation that it was just due to power that Gin survived and took less, is true, rather than just being Aizen’s EE was vastly weaker in potency due to all of the factors I outlined. Gin only got close to Aizen in this state.

So you're saying that his EE can be weaker therefore it isn't a limitless ability? Thanks for the concession.

If you're arguing that EE is EE no matter what, then this Aizen being on his knees and dying shouldn't make any difference.

This isn’t proof of a weakness. Let’s say there were 2 High 6-A characters in a verse of 9-A characters, he has passive matter Hax that allows him to atomize everyone in his vicinity. These people would all be 9-A. Let’s say this High 6-A fight’s another High 6-A and the two are relative to each other, but the matter Hax doesn’t affect the High 6-A. We wouldn’t say that this means the matter Hax has a weakness that it can’t affect relative characters, we would say the other High 6-A has resistance to matter Hax.

That's one possibility. But if the High 6-A guy says "This ability works on these people because they're 9-A" then maybe it isn't a limitless hax. (Not what I'm saying Aizen said there)

The point being made here is that we don’t need feats of it affecting relative characters, you need explicit evidence that it has the weakness of being unable to affect relative characters because of strength, otherwise we treat it as legit dura negating Hax. In this example, Aizen is the character with matter Hax, Ichigo and Yhwach are the other High 6-A. The fact it wasn’t shown working on relative opponents isn’t proof it can’t affect stronger opponents, it just means the people who weren’t affected have resistance. Again, you have to prove weakness or it’s just resistance. EE is inherently durability negation. This entire counter argument isn’t proof of anything you’re trying to argue and is useless as it doesn’t prove weakness, it proves resistance.

I've provided proof of that it has limitations.

I'm not arguing their tiers are what saved them instead of some headcanon resistance.

You have no justification in assuming that this is a weakness of the EE or that it was because of “the strength of their spirits.” This is just a resistance feat for Ichigo and Yhwach.

Doesn't look like that to me. Where's your proof that it would work on them in the first place? Oh, wait, you're just assuming it.

This is entirely useless as a point. Don Kanonji wasn’t affected by the EE. As shown with the bottle example, even in Deicide, Aizen’s EE only works close to his body. Aizen is reiatsu crushing Don here, he was not affecting him with the EE. It’s impossible for him to have done that as his EE doesn’t have the range to do that. He found Don not kissing the ground as soon as he pulled up a very impressive feat. This entire point is an irrelevant red herring as it doesn’t even involve the EE. Aizen was also suppressed.

I have no idea what the Hell you're talking about. You seem to have completely misinterpreted that section of my OP. Go reread it again. I never said Don Kanonji should have been being affected by the existence erasure there.

I don’t think you’ve given any good reason to think the EE is power related. You don’t have any statements to that affect, and all of your “anti feats” are really questionable. You haven’t given good enough reason to think that the EE has an inability to affect strong people. Aizen should still have his EE (It won’t be limited) and Ichigo and Yhwach keep their resistance.

I think the manga supports my points a lot more than it does yours. You don't have any statement that supports the current justification of "Aizen erases anything from existence."

I think it’s good to specify Aizen’s EE has low range however.

Okay.

 

[Damage3245]

Fair enough, well I've said all I've got to say, so I'm fine concluding with agree to disagree and letting others deliberate the rest. I'll list my proposals for all who care:

Change Aizen's EE to Limited EE (very close range but worded better)

Change Ichigo's and Yhwach's EE resistance to "likely/possibly" (same justification but mention that it's not entirely concrete how it functions against Aizen level opponents)

Okay, thank you for responding.

 

[AppleLord]

Poor Damage, her agenda is very full. Give her some slack guys. Don’t reply all at once.

 

[Nierre]

"he/him"

 

[Damage3245]

"he/him"

I'll assume that was just a typo from AppleLord.

 

[AppleLord]

"he/him"

The more you know, words won’t make me lie about what I saw.

 

[Arcker123]

You do in order to avoid misleading justifications. The justification claims "Anything". The statements linked do not support that.

Sure, we could take the word ”anything” out if you want. It doesn’t mean it’s limited. The point I’m making here is that I don’t need such a statement in order for the EE to warrant it not being limited. Seems like your hung up on semantics rather than the actual discussion. We’re discussing the proposals on whether or not Aizen’s EE deserves limited, not the use of one word that really change anything. I don’t think it’s exactly misleading either when we’ve seen him erase even like objects but whatever.

I think it does have a stated weakness, so it should be limited.

That you haven’t provided. You didn’t give one statement that says “Aizen’s EE can’t affect relative opponents“ or “Aizen’s EE can be resisted by having strong spiritual pressure” or anything of the like. I already explained how the scan you’re using for this argument does not say what you think it does.

Never said that his EE is "human limited". Don't put words in my mouth.

Again this is just you being hung up on semantics. I obviously meant just “people weaker spiritual power.” I used them synonymously.

You ought to have something to that effect in order to support the current justification. Instead you don't, you just have assumptions.

I‘ve already gone over the use of “anything“ previously.

I have proven it. How you treat hax is your business, but I don't subscribe to your interpretation of "hax".

No you haven’t. I’m using the Wikis interpretation of Hax. Hax as defined by the wiki is: “Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.” Existence Erasure is a form of Hax.

I'm not arguing that durability is involved here. I've proven that there is a limitation to it.

What I was responding to said “It's very easy to boil things down to just "hax" and say "If Aizen can erase one person's body / soul, then his aura of spiritual pressure ignores durability completely and will erase anyone and everyone [unless they're somehow resistant to it]". I said that this is true because EE is dura negating Hax.

I don't need to do anything for your interpretation. Your interpretation has no basis and no supporting evidence.

I made my interpretation from the very same scans you were using. Prove that yours has more evidence than mine. Yours doesn’t have any more basis than mine does, that’s the point and why yours fails to go through.

So you're saying that his EE can be weaker therefore it isn't a limitless ability? Thanks for the concession.

If you're arguing that EE is EE no matter what, then this Aizen being on his knees and dying shouldn't make any difference.

You wanna give us an explanation as to how that follows? Like i didn’t say anything amongst those lines. What I’m saying is that since his heart was destroyed, and the heart is the source of one’s Reiatsu, it makes sense to say that there was less flow of Reiatsu and thus EE. It doesn’t follow from that that I’ve conceded that the EE only works on the spiritually weaker. I don’t understand how you could possibly think that. There’s also 3 other arguments I gave that you still haven’t touched so……

That's one possibility. But if the High 6-A guy says "This ability works on these people because they're 9-A" then maybe it isn't a limitless hax. (Not what I'm saying Aizen said there)

If Aizen’s not saying it then what’s the point here? The point of my analogy is that not affecting someone relative to you and only being shown working on weaker people is not proof of weaknes, we treat it as resistance.

I've provided proof of that it has limitations.

I'm not arguing their tiers are what saved them instead of some headcanon resistance.

Restating “I’ve given proof” isn’t meaningful to this discussion when that’s what’s being It’s not headcanon if that’s whats on panel. You haven’t proven that it was because of tiers (Im going to assume the ”not” is a typo). The wiki treats this as resistance.

Doesn't look like that to me. Where's your proof that it would work on them in the first place? Oh, wait, you're just assuming it.

I have no clue what you’re asking me here. Are you asking me to prove that it works on relative tier opponents? If so, I don’t have to. Thats what the Wiki asuumes. EE is treated as inherently a dura negating Hax, which the wiki defines as ignoring tier. You have to give evidence tiers matter or the wiki treats it like any other Hax were tiees don’t.

I have no idea what the Hell you're talking about. You seem to have completely misinterpreted that section of my OP. Go reread it again. I never said Don Kanonji should have been being affected by the existence erasure there.

My mistake here, but theres still another issue with the third section.

Of course Don Kanonji's spiritual energy alone is not sufficient to prevent him from being erased by Aizen but for characters who do not suffer from this monumental gap in strength, Aizen's energy would not have the same effect on them.

This straight doesn’t follow. I don’t understand how you could possibly think that it follows from the fact that a suppressed Aizen commending Don for not kissing the ground as soon as he pulled up that the EE would not have the same affect on relative opponent. There’s also no reason to think that Reiatsu crush being able to get somewhat resisted by an ant applies to the EE. That doesn’t follow and you gave absolutely no justification to think that. The entire point of the third section is a non sequiter lol. Hell we know the standard Reiatsu crush and the EE aren’t exactly 1 to 1 because of the massive range difference.

I think the manga supports my points a lot more than it does yours. You don't have any statement that supports the current justification of "Aizen erases anything from existence."

No it doesn’t. There is not one thing in the manga that would suggest that it has a weakn that it can’t affect relative opponent. Again you’re just being hung up on the use of anything. Remove it fine, it wouldn’t change anything about how the ability would say would work in Vs battles or anything important. It’s not proof of a weakness or anything.

 

[Damage3245]

Don't have time to respond tonight, but will come back to this thread in the morning.

I'll just quickly add on a couple points:

Restating “I’ve given proof” isn’t meaningful to this discussion when that’s what’s being It’s not headcanon if that’s whats on panel. You haven’t proven that it was because of tiers (Im going to assume the ”not” is a typo). The wiki treats this as resistance.

The "not" is not a typo, and I don't care what you say "The wiki treats this as resistance." I'm giving my viewpoint, not whatever you assume is the wiki's consensus. If the wiki just automatically agreed on everything, there wouldn't be any discussion in the first place.

No you haven’t. I’m using the Wikis interpretation of Hax. Hax as defined by the wiki is: “Hax is a catch-all term for abilities that can be used to ignore/bypass one or more of a target's statistics, rendering them irrelevant.” Existence Erasure is a form of Hax.

That is not relevent to it being Limited or not. Durability isn't the only factor that matters.

 

[Arcker123]

The "not" is not a typo, and I don't care what you say "The wiki treats this as resistance." I'm giving my viewpoint, not whatever you assume is the wiki's consensus. If the wiki just automatically agreed on everything, there wouldn't be any discussion in the first place.

We’re debating on a forum with standards and rule we have to abide by. You can’t just disagree with wiki standards and actually be expected to be taken seriously. If you have an issue with the standards specifically, make a CRT to change them. This is how the Wiki works. As long as the standards are there, my argument still goes through.

 

[Damage3245]

We’re debating on a forum with standards and rule we have to abide by. You can’t just disagree with wiki standards and actually be expected to be taken seriously. If you have an issue with the standards specifically, make a CRT to change them. This is how the Wiki works.

That's what this CRT is for dude.

I'm not violating any known wiki standards just by adding a word "Limited" in front of an ability and adding more correct detail to the justification.

Also, I don't care at all if I'm not taken seriously by you. You can hold whatever opinion you like.

 

[Damage3245]

And one more thing, since I think you're confused on this point:

I have no clue what you’re asking me here. Are you asking me to prove that it works on relative tier opponents? If so, I don’t have to. Thats what the Wiki asuumes. EE is treated as inherently a dura negating Hax, which the wiki defines as ignoring tier. You have to give evidence tiers matter or the wiki treats it like any other Hax were tiees don’t.

I'm not saying that Aizen's Existence Erasure can't negate durability. That's not why I'm proposing the limited.

Do you even understand what I'm proposing? Because it doesn't seem like that. I don't give a care what tier Ichigo or Yhwach is in regards to this CRT. I am not arguing that Tier 5 characters can just ignore his ability.

My last few posts may have been more flippant than usual, but it's because I feel like I'm arguing with someone who doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about, and it's making me feel like I'm slamming my head against a wall.

 

[Arcker123]

That's what this CRT is for dude.

No, the CRT is about giving Aizen a “limited” for his EE. It’s not about changing how the Wiki treats Hax and Resistance.

I'm not violating any known wiki standards just by adding a word "Limited" in front of an ability and adding more correct detail to the justification.

I’m using wiki standards to explain how the “Limited” is unwarranted. Some of the arguments you gave contradict how the Wiki treats Hax and I explained why with no defeater from you. You haven’t justified why this “detail” even exists.

And one more thing, since I think you're confused on this point:



I'm not saying that Aizen's Existence Erasure can't negate durability. That's not why I'm proposing the limited.

Do you even understand what I'm proposing? Because it doesn't seem like that. I don't give a care what tier Ichigo or Yhwach is in regards to this CRT. I am not arguing that Tier 5 characters can just ignore his ability.

My last few posts may have been more flippant than usual, but it's because I feel like I'm arguing with someone who doesn't understand what the hell I'm talking about, and it's making me feel like I'm slamming my head against a wall.

What are you trying to say then? If you’re not trying to say that tier 5 characters can resist in virtue of not being weak. I don’t understand the point of the “Limited” for Aizen’s EE justification. This what you wrote for proposals:

1) We reword Aizen's ability to something like this:

Limited Passive Existence Erasure (Aizen's Reiatsu is so potent that anyone with a sufficiently weak spirit will be erased by extremely close contact with him. This effect also applies to inanimate objects to an extent as Don Kanonji's staff was erased, but the chair which Aizen was restrained to was unaffected.)

2) We remove the resistances to existence erasure from Aizen, Ichigo and Yhwach for this. They're not resisting the existence erasure itself, they're not just weak enough to the point where Aizen's energy would significantly affect them like humans or low-level Shinigami.

You’re the one trying to say that they’re not being affected in virtue of the fact they’re “not weak enough” and that Aizens EE “Aizen's Reiatsu is so potent that anyone with a sufficiently weak spirit.” This very clearly implies that there is a strength weakness to the EE. I really don‘t understand what I’m misinterpreting. I can be wrong sure, but you haven’t attempted to clear this confusion. What am I misunderstanding? Because from what I’m seeing in the OP, I haven’t done that. You also used the fact that relative in strength characters weren’t affected as an argument. What do you mean when you say “stronger spirits” and “weak spirits.”

I also mentioned “Dura Negation“ because it’s synonymous with ignoring statistics, which is what I’m trying to say Aizen’s EE would be treated as and thus be a defeater to your second argument.

 

[Damage3245]

What are you trying to say then? If you’re not trying to say that tier 5 characters can resist in virtue of not being weak. I don’t understand the point of the “Limited” for Aizen’s EE justification

I'm sorry for my earlier posts. I realize now that you've just misunderstood what this thread is about all along.

I'll see if i can provide clarification in the morning but rest assured I'm not talking about AP tiers allowing you to overcome EE.

 

[Arcker123]

I'm sorry for my earlier posts. I realize now that you've just misunderstood what this thread is about all along.

I'll see if i can provide clarification in the morning but rest assured I'm not talking about AP tiers allowing you to overcome EE.

Ok sure, but like how did I misinterpret this:

Aizen says in the first two examples that "humans can't withstand his spiritual energy" and "any human in contact with him will cease to exist." Why mention humans? It's not because his spiritual energy only works on humans but because they're just so absolutely weak compared to Aizen that they're the ones who are going to be erased. They're bottom of the barrel. The gap could not be larger between them.

However characters with stronger spirits, AKA Shinigami, will not be affected to that degree.

Of course Don Kanonji's spiritual energy alone is not sufficient to prevent him from being erased by Aizen but for characters who do not suffer from this monumental gap in strength, Aizen's energy would not have the same effect on them.

You consistently mentioned strength and how not having this monumental gap in strength means it would not have the same affect and how they’re “not weak enough for it to affect them in the same way.” You’re clearly trying to imply a strength component. There’s way more than this as evidence of you saying this exact point.

 

[KillerNerd007]

1/2) I think it is important to contextualize the fact that while Aizen was erasing humans he was nerfing himself to the point where Tatsuki and Keigo could sense him. Again we see the extents at which Aizen is nerfing himself when Don Kanonji can sense and withstand his reiatsu too. Don Kanonji being someone who is barely fodder Hollow level, fodder Hollows being something the FKT Gotei 13 + Aizen's forces can pop from 13 miles away (considering Aizen solos his Espada and all the Captains, this RC is practically all base Yama and base Aizen, and I presume I don't need to explain how much stronger 3rd fusion Aizen is from base). Hell, even upon reaching his 4th fusion Aizen is still suppressing himself to the point Tatsuki can sense him. Aizen keeping himself massively suppressed is something he confirms himself before losing to Ichigo. I won't bore y'all with a narrative break down of Deicide arc Aizen, as I'm sure it is obvious that Aizen was overcome with arrogance, underestimating everyone around him time and time again.

3) I think this is fine and contextualized in its entirety. Aizen after being humbled by Ichigo no longer retains his god-complex arrogance he had before, and thus makes his statement far more general.

So, I hope my issue is starting to become clear. The reason Aizen mentions just humans during the Deicide chapters is not indicative of a limit to his ability, but rather it was because of the given context. Aizen had nerfed himself to the point where his RC was less potent than roughly base Yama's and base Aizen's combined RC. He even states himself he lowered it to the point where humans with even an inkling of spirit energy could interfere. It is for that reason that I don't think Aizen's Deicide arc feats can serve as limiters to his short-ranged EE aura at all. In the same way hyper casual feats don't limit a character's scaling in terms of statistics (an extreme example being Vegito Blue destroying buildings), Deicide arc Aizen's massively suppressed feats don't limit his hax either. This is then supported when Aizen transitions to more broad and general statements with aura when talking with Shunsui regarding the guard and Shunsui getting near.


I may have jumped the gun above, but what I said above strongly applies here. Aizen has been massively suppressing himself as I proved above, and even admits to being simply curious as to how Gin would betray him. The extent of his arrogance was so vast he let Gin get a free hit. Then not even touching Gin's arm he starts to erase it as you've pointed out. But then Aizen evolves and and reaches perhaps his peak of arrogance, believing his finally transcended all. The only reason Gin would be able to pierce Aizen to begin with is if Aizen had lowered his reiatsu to Gin levels, likely even lower considering fodder humans can interfere by Aizen's own admission. For that reason, I don't think Gin works as a debunk either.


I think this actually supports Aizen's EE, he was able to start erasing Gin (but Gin escaped before it could happen) when he was dying and nerfing himself to the point where Gin could injure him (i.e. in this instance Gin and Aizen are somewhat relative). However, Yhwach and Ichigo who are relative to Aizen don't get erased.


I addressed this in my initial argument.

My counter-proposal would be to reword Aizen's passive EE to represent that it is practically at the range of touch. As we see consistently that the EE is far within arm's reach of Aizen with the bottle, Don's staff, and in Muken as you showed.

I agree with this.

 

[Damage3245]

Ok sure, but like how did I misinterpret this:


You consistently mentioned strength and how not having this monumental gap in strength means it would not have the same affect and how they’re “not weak enough for it to affect them in the same way.” You’re clearly trying to imply a strength component. There’s way more than this as evidence of you saying this exact point.

Okay, my following post may be a bit pedantic but that's only because I'm trying to be clearer than I was before.

First, we need to stop looking at this through a "VS Battle Wiki lens". Things like "Tiers" and "Attack Potency" are our terms and don't exist in Bleach, so we need to look at things through a "Bleach lens". Why are the feats that we're discussing from the OP happening in the first place.

Aizen says "Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

So Aizen's power, AKA his quantity of spirit energy, is having an effect on these humans because they can't withstand his power.

Why can't they withstand his power?

Based on Aizen's statement, the logical conclusion is that their spirits are too weak. They have X amount of energy and that is below the threshold needed to survive in Aizen's presence. This is fairly straightforward to accept for me because we've seen humans be pretty much at the bottom of the list in terms of spiritual energy.

We can see this effect of "withstanding power" in the other example I provided in the OP. Don Kanonji, though he possesses a weak spirit, is not so weak that he can't withstand standing in Aizen's presence for a minute before breaking down in the might of Aizen's passive spiritual energy. (He's not close enough for him to be erased, but close enough for other effects to occur)

So possessing higher amounts of spiritual energy logically makes an individual more able to "withstand Aizen's power".

So if Humans (and others who are weak enough in terms of spirit) can't withstand Aizen's power? They get their existence erased at close range.

If an individual can withstand Aizen's power? Logically they won't get their existence erased at close range.

Now, this isn't about their Tier or Attack Potency. Just because someone can smash a mountain with their bare hands doesn't mean their spirit is "strong" or "weak".

The "strength component" that you mention me talking about isn't to do with their ratings or tiers, it is to do with the strength of their spirit.

As far as I see it personally, there are two options; everyone with spiritual energy gets "Resistance to Existence Erasure" which I don't personally agree with, because I feel that it is misleading. Bleach characters don't resist existence erasure in general. Ichigo and Yhwach are just unaffected by Aizen because their spirits are not weak enough to the point where Aizen's spiritual energy would erase them.

Or we change Aizen's Existence Erasure to "Limited." He only erases individuals and objects whose spirits can't withstand his power. This doesn't mean we look at the characters tiers and say "This guy is Tier 4, so he is unaffected." That's just not how it works.

@LordGriffin1000 Are you okay with the proposals in the OP, and the summary I've made here?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Okay, my following post may be a bit pedantic but that's only because I'm trying to be clearer than I was before.

First, we need to stop looking at this through a "VS Battle Wiki lens". Things like "Tiers" and "Attack Potency" are our terms and don't exist in Bleach, so we need to look at things through a "Bleach lens". Why are the feats that we're discussing from the OP happening in the first place.

Aizen says "Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

So Aizen's power, AKA his quantity of spirit energy, is having an effect on these humans because they can't withstand his power.

Why can't they withstand his power?

Based on Aizen's statement, the logical conclusion is that their spirits are too weak. They have X amount of energy and that is below the threshold needed to survive in Aizen's presence. This is fairly straightforward to accept for me because we've seen humans be pretty much at the bottom of the list in terms of spiritual energy.

We can see this effect of "withstanding power" in the other example I provided in the OP. Don Kanonji, though he possesses a weak spirit, is not so weak that he can't withstand standing in Aizen's presence for a minute before breaking down in the might of Aizen's passive spiritual energy. (He's not close enough for him to be erased, but close enough for other effects to occur)

So possessing higher amounts of spiritual energy logically makes an individual more able to "withstand Aizen's power".

So if Humans (and others who are weak enough in terms of spirit) can't withstand Aizen's power? They get their existence erased at close range.

If an individual can withstand Aizen's power? Logically they won't get their existence erased at close range.

Now, this isn't about their Tier or Attack Potency. Just because someone can smash a mountain with their bare hands doesn't mean their spirit is "strong" or "weak".

The "strength component" that you mention me talking about isn't to do with their ratings or tiers, it is to do with the strength of their spirit.

As far as I see it personally, there are two options; everyone with spiritual energy gets "Resistance to Existence Erasure" which I don't personally agree with, because I feel that it is misleading. Bleach characters don't resist existence erasure in general. Ichigo and Yhwach are just unaffected by Aizen because their spirits are not weak enough to the point where Aizen's spiritual energy would erase them.

Or we change Aizen's Existence Erasure to "Limited." He only erases individuals and objects whose spirits can't withstand his power. This doesn't mean we look at the characters tiers and say "This guy is Tier 4, so he is unaffected." That's just not how it works.

@LordGriffin1000 Are you okay with the proposals in the OP, and the summary I've made here?

I'm not Griffin, but.....
This makes a good deal of sense to me. Arc's arguments were good, but I personally find this a tad more convincing.

 

[Damage3245]

I'm not Griffin, but.....
This makes a good deal of sense to me. Arc's arguments were good, but I personally find this a tad more convincing.

Thanks for responding.

 

[KingTempest]

Okay, my following post may be a bit pedantic but that's only because I'm trying to be clearer than I was before.

First, we need to stop looking at this through a "VS Battle Wiki lens". Things like "Tiers" and "Attack Potency" are our terms and don't exist in Bleach, so we need to look at things through a "Bleach lens". Why are the feats that we're discussing from the OP happening in the first place.

Aizen says "Humans can't sense my power because they can't sense spirit energy. But their spirits are unable to withstand my power."

So Aizen's power, AKA his quantity of spirit energy, is having an effect on these humans because they can't withstand his power.

Why can't they withstand his power?

Based on Aizen's statement, the logical conclusion is that their spirits are too weak. They have X amount of energy and that is below the threshold needed to survive in Aizen's presence. This is fairly straightforward to accept for me because we've seen humans be pretty much at the bottom of the list in terms of spiritual energy.

We can see this effect of "withstanding power" in the other example I provided in the OP. Don Kanonji, though he possesses a weak spirit, is not so weak that he can't withstand standing in Aizen's presence for a minute before breaking down in the might of Aizen's passive spiritual energy. (He's not close enough for him to be erased, but close enough for other effects to occur)

So possessing higher amounts of spiritual energy logically makes an individual more able to "withstand Aizen's power".

So if Humans (and others who are weak enough in terms of spirit) can't withstand Aizen's power? They get their existence erased at close range.

If an individual can withstand Aizen's power? Logically they won't get their existence erased at close range.

Now, this isn't about their Tier or Attack Potency. Just because someone can smash a mountain with their bare hands doesn't mean their spirit is "strong" or "weak".

The "strength component" that you mention me talking about isn't to do with their ratings or tiers, it is to do with the strength of their spirit.

As far as I see it personally, there are two options; everyone with spiritual energy gets "Resistance to Existence Erasure" which I don't personally agree with, because I feel that it is misleading. Bleach characters don't resist existence erasure in general. Ichigo and Yhwach are just unaffected by Aizen because their spirits are not weak enough to the point where Aizen's spiritual energy would erase them.

Or we change Aizen's Existence Erasure to "Limited." He only erases individuals and objects whose spirits can't withstand his power. This doesn't mean we look at the characters tiers and say "This guy is Tier 4, so he is unaffected." That's just not how it works.

@LordGriffin1000 Are you okay with the proposals in the OP, and the summary I've made here?

This does make a lot of sense. I can agree with this. It does seem consistent with the lore of the series and the mechanics of the abilities

 

[Damage3245]

This does make a lot of sense. I can agree with this. It does seem consistent with the lore of the series and the mechanics of the abilities

Thank you for responding.

 

[Arcker123]

I can give a response in a few.