Random guy with a bow vs random guy with subpar intelligence [5-0-0] [CONCLUDED]

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

Random battle today but it is Edward Stigandr (Human) vs Ragin' Reggie

Ragin' Reggie is likely slightly superior strength wise however there isn't exactly a quantifiable number
Speed is equalised
Opponents have no former knowledge of one another
Starting distance is 10m
Rest is SBA

Ragin' Reggie - 5
Edward Stigandr - 0
Inconclusive - 0

 

[DMUA]

Tomorrow, (or I guess later today after 8 or more hours of sleep) but this message marks acknowledgement and putting it into my watched threads

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

Tomorrow, (or I guess later today after 8 or more hours of sleep) but this message marks acknowledgement and putting it into my watched threads

I shall be waiting (I'll probably be asleep in like an hour )

 

[Rayfire]

Following

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

To open the battle, I believe Edward would be quick to leverage his superior intellect, incredible bow skills and superior agility to keep Reggie away from him.

In doing so, he can fire large volleys of arrows towards Reggie and make him slowly bleed to death and lose strength, before killing him

 

[DMUA]

Tomorrow, (or I guess later today after 8 or more hours of sleep) but this message marks acknowledgement and putting it into my watched threads

Don't be awake until 4:40 AM kids

Anyways,

To open the battle, I believe Edward would be quick to leverage his superior intellect, incredible bow skills and superior agility to keep Reggie away from him.

In doing so, he can fire large volleys of arrows towards Reggie and make him slowly bleed to death and lose strength, before killing him

It's something I understate on the page but apart of Reggie's martial skills is the fact he can just parry attacks that come his way, and considering he can dodge gunfire with enough distance, arrows are something he'll probably just catch or break as fast as they come.

Also, because I pumped up his attributes and skills so high, Reginald could attack and dodge/parry 3 or 4 times a turn and still have a good chance of succeeding despite the cumulative penalties for taking multiple actions.

And because his Dexterity, Martial Arts, and Dodge were so high, he could Parry anyone several times a round and dodge hails of gunfire with mediocre rolls.

Reggie's also not really stupid as much as he is uneducated, he's savvy enough to think of depriving ammo as a tactic when he was dealing with Manlow's guard squad, and he's only going to have so many arrows to shoot at Reggie. On the note of Manlow's guard squad, Reggie also can use his sheer intimidating willpower to throw off his aim. I doubt Edward's just going to turn tail in the same way Manlow's guards are, but his willpower feats are a bit nebulous and Reggie's intimidation is pretty wild when I think about it (though I'm gonna collapsible this because it probably doesn't mean a ton to the overall fight's flow)

Spoiler: Reggie's Fear Manipulation

For context, Manlow is a despot. He's shown killing or exiling anyone who even seems like they could be a problem, including Reggie themselves or anyone who was bitten, despite the setting's zombie infection not taking effect until after someone's died of other causes. Him and his 6 guards had their guns trained on Reggie, who had to hide in cover or risk being totally lit up. Reggie, from this very inferior position, makes a declaration that he was going to kill anyone still there after the count of 10, and two guys just straight up leave. It's high end enough and given it's associated to his raw willpower, it didn't seem right to rate it as social influencing

I doubt he's going to get a lot of clean hits, and even if he does Reggie's stamina is the kind of thing that can last for days of racking up the occasional injury, so he's not going to be worse for ware by the time Edward's run out of shots to take. Once they get into melee, Reggie does also have a definitive edge in terms of grappling thanks to his Class 10 and Brawling applying to that

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

It's something I understate on the page but apart of Reggie's martial skills is the fact he can just parry attacks that come his way, and considering he can dodge gunfire with enough distance, arrows are something he'll probably just catch or break as fast as they come.

Edward is also an experienced Martial artist, he can grapple with superior foes and is well versed in hand to hand combat

Reggie's also not really stupid as much as he is uneducated, he's savvy enough to think of depriving ammo as a tactic when he was dealing with Manlow's guard squad, and he's only going to have so many arrows to shoot at Reggie. On the note of Manlow's guard squad, Reggie also can use his sheer intimidating willpower to throw off his aim. I doubt Edward's just going to turn tail in the same way Manlow's guards are, but his willpower feats are a bit nebulous and Reggie's intimidation is pretty wild when I think about it (though I'm gonna collapsible this because it probably doesn't mean a ton to the overall fight's flow

Understandable, however Edward is still far smarter, he's a tactician who can take insurmountable odds and turn it into a clean victory, this doesn't simply apply to large scale battles as he has done the same blade to blade or hand to hand on multiple occasions despite being outmatched many times before

Spoiler: Reggie's Fear Manipulation

For context, Manlow is a despot. He's shown killing or exiling anyone who even seems like they could be a problem, including Reggie themselves or anyone who was bitten, despite the setting's zombie infection not taking effect until after someone's died of other causes. Him and his 6 guards had their guns trained on Reggie, who had to hide in cover or risk being totally lit up. Reggie, from this very inferior position, makes a declaration that he was going to kill anyone still there after the count of 10, and two guys just straight up leave. It's high end enough and given it's associated to his raw willpower, it didn't seem right to rate it as social influencing

Fair enough on these, I doubt it'll make Edward feel anything, as he stood in the face of Rancour without even twitching.

I doubt he's going to get a lot of clean hits, and even if he does Reggie's stamina is the kind of thing that can last for days of racking up the occasional injury, so he's not going to be worse for ware by the time Edward's run out of shots to take. Once they get into melee, Reggie does also have a definitive edge in terms of grappling thanks to his Class 10 and Brawling applying to that

Edward will likely leverage his blade skills to cut Reggie apart at this point, and will likely attempt to stagger

 

[DMUA]

Edward is also an experienced Martial artist, he can grapple with superior foes and is well versed in hand to hand combat

What are these "superior foes"? If it's fellbeasts, Reggie is both stronger than them and has skill in his own right, both of those together paint a much different picture.

Understandable, however Edward is still far smarter, he's a tactician who can take insurmountable odds and turn it into a clean victory, this doesn't simply apply to large scale battles as he has done the same blade to blade or hand to hand on multiple occasions despite being outmatched many times before

Tactics aren't a statistical value or magic trick that automatically grant victory, they have to have resources and use them effectively to get a particular result. If his idea is strolling up to the expert martial artist and say "I'm sure to win because I've been outmatched before", he's going to eat harder punches, be grabbed by stiffer grapples and find out Reggie is an absolute monster when pushed into a corner.

Edward will likely leverage his blade skills to cut Reggie apart at this point, and will likely attempt to stagger

Leverage and attempt, but Reggie has the advantage in point blank engagements. Higher lifting strength means he's liable to take away the guy's sword, where the same can't be said for Reggie's Axe-Katar since it's strapped to his hand by belt buckle, so he's more liable to take the initiative and start getting in hits to start bringing him down.

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

What are these "superior foes"? If it's fellbeasts, Reggie is both stronger than them and has skill in his own right, both of those together paint a much different picture.

No, it was referring to Takahiro and the fell beast leader 'Fellen' who was far superior to even hundreds of Fell.

Tactics aren't a statistical value or magic trick that automatically grant victory, they have to have resources and use them effectively to get a particular result. If his idea is strolling up to the expert martial artist and say "I'm sure to win because I've been outmatched before", he's going to eat harder punches, be grabbed by stiffer grapples and find out Reggie is an absolute monster when pushed into a corner.

Edward is no slouch and there isn't really any 'pushing him into a corner' since he's also an incredibly proficient martial artist and he's incredibly agile, so the chances of him being hit are pretty slim unless he directly allows it.

Leverage and attempt, but Reggie has the advantage in point blank engagements. Higher lifting strength means he's liable to take away the guy's sword, where the same can't be said for Reggie's Axe-Katar since it's strapped to his hand by belt buckle, so he's more liable to take the initiative and start getting in hits to start bringing him down.

There's very little chance he gets a handle on Edward's sword as the guy is far too smart and nimble to just allow someone to snatch his sword, so he'll make sure to keep his distance and ensure he gets in large cuts.

 

[DMUA]

No, it was referring to Takahiro and the fell beast leader 'Fellen' who was far superior to even hundreds of Fell.

You'd need to have a very good justification to explain how exactly a Class K is being outdone by a Class 5 in Grappling, I don't think a single muscle in the guy's body would be able to be held down with that kind of disparity

Edward is no slouch and there isn't really any 'pushing him into a corner' since he's also an incredibly proficient martial artist and he's incredibly agile, so the chances of him being hit are pretty slim unless he directly allows it.

Skill, much like tactics, is not a magical spell that nullifies enemy accuracy. It's greatly helpful against untrained folks but that's not the deal with Reggie. He's also directly dealt with enemies that express superhuman mobility in the form of Brutes and other trained fighters in the form of the tough survivors in Part 2.

There's very little chance he gets a handle on Edward's sword as the guy is far too smart and nimble to just allow someone to snatch his sword, so he'll make sure to keep his distance and ensure he gets in large cuts.

Too smart? What, is he going to mind blast Reggie away from just grabbing his wrist or arm, or even if he does as you suggest and starts backing off, the blade? That's more than a viable option and he can't avoid getting that within Reggie's range if he wants to actually attack (And if he goes for the legs, that's arguably worse since he could just stomp on the blade and pin it to the ground that way with even less risk of cutting himself)

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

You'd need to have a very good justification to explain how exactly a Class K is being outdone by a Class 5 in Grappling, I don't think a single muscle in the guy's body would be able to be held down with that kind of disparity

I was under the impression he was Class 10?
Regardless, with Rage Power it's quite possible he could gain Bursts of strength upon that level, and he can use his Agility to prevent physical struggles

Skill, much like tactics, is not a magical spell that nullifies enemy accuracy. It's greatly helpful against untrained folks but that's not the deal with Reggie. He's also directly dealt with enemies that express superhuman mobility in the form of Brutes and other trained fighters in the form of the tough survivors in Part 2.

It's the skill disparity that im pointing out, Reggie may be a hardened survivor but Edward is a ranger who has seen, fought in and studied multiple wars and he has a keen insight on how to broadly fight against a range of enemies, including those stronger than him and he's not going to allow Reggie to get near enough to him to excert his superior strength

Too smart? What, is he going to mind blast Reggie away from just grabbing his wrist or arm, or even if he does as you suggest and starts backing off, the blade? That's more than a viable option and he can't avoid getting that within Reggie's range if he wants to actually attack (And if he goes for the legs, that's arguably worse since he could just stomp on the blade and pin it to the ground that way with even less risk of cutting himself)

Again, he's likely to use his nimble movements to create openings in which he can get slashes off without being countered and he'll likely figure out his fighting style quickly in order to entirely counter it.

Yes he has to be in range, but he's likely far too nimble to be easily caught by slashing him once

 

[DMUA]

I was under the impression he was Class 10?

You then mentioned dealing with Takahiro in retort, who is Class K. But then again, given the other example is listed in his other key... For hiss strength justification... I'm not very compelled.

Regardless, with Rage Power it's quite possible he could gain Bursts of strength upon that level

Things not listed or implied on the page.

and he can use his Agility to prevent physical struggles

His acrobatics is very specifically enhanced condition, being able to do things beyond human limits to move around. That's not the same as being a contortionist (or if you mean keeping distance, he's still not going to be able to avoid having his blade potentially grabbed because he still has to swing that thing and contact some part of Reggie)

It's the skill disparity that im pointing out, Reggie may be a hardened survivor but Edward is a ranger who has seen, fought in and studied multiple wars and he has a keen insight on how to broadly fight against a range of enemies, including those stronger than him

Just because no one officially called it a war doesn't mean Reggie hasn't been through a lot of severe combative scenarios with a multitude of enemies. Even when he wasn't being physically matched he had to be efficient about dealing with massive hordes of zombies colliding into his position, and when he did really meet his superior in the form of Super Brutes, he overcame that too. Keep in mind Super Brutes weren't just ridiculously strong, they also just couldn't be killed because they had no weak points and and regenerated, his only way of taking them out was reducing them to so many pieces that even when they were still twitching around on the ground, they couldn't heal.

he's not going to allow Reggie to get near enough to him to exert his superior strength

If he's going to actually attack he doesn't have a choice. His ranged options won't stay viable, he strictly needs to have the sword enter Reggie's range to attack.

Again, he's likely to use his nimble movements to create openings in which he can get slashes off without being countered

Skill isn't magic, it can't just be casted to achieve an effect. There has to be some through line of actions, and there's nothing he can do to eliminate a risk inherent to melee when he has to use melee. Would he try poking at Reggie to bait his grab then superjump forward? As I mentioned earlier Brutes use that exact kind of tactic and Reggie's more than able to respond to it, and a grab or parry isn't going to have him throw his weight so forward he's unable to do that. Would he try attacking from above? That'd still require a leap, and it'd leave him at the mercy of gravity to send him into Reggie, so it'd better work.

and he'll likely figure out his fighting style quickly in order to entirely counter it.

He operates on pretty much any range his hands can reach, he doesn't rely on weapons or specific attacks since he can use whatever kick or punch he feels is appropriate, his habits are just "hit a guy in a way that works", it's not something that can just be nullified with mundane skill.

---

As an overall, because it is ultimately a fight between two guys with weapons and martial arts, it's a lot more prone to tossups than higher tier stuff, but Reggie does have distinct advantages. They aren't advantages that are impossible to tackle, but it would be rather difficult and it's more likely that Reggie can just take advantage of his end of things and eventually deliver a lethal pummeling, and his capability for comebacks seems a lot higher. I'll just vote for Reggie, at this stage.

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

You then mentioned dealing with Takahiro in retort, who is Class K. But then again, given the other example is listed in his other key... For his strength justification... I'm not very compelled.

He was able to lock blades with and briefly overpower him, probably a massive outlier but it's something he did.

Things not listed or implied on the page.

Have you read what rage power is? It's strength through rage

His acrobatics is very specifically enhanced condition, being able to do things beyond human limits to move around. That's not the same as being a contortionist (or if you mean keeping distance, he's still not going to be able to avoid having his blade potentially grabbed because he still has to swing that thing and contact some part of Reggie)

Correct, however he's able leverage his blade to create openings when he's off-guard (such as after a few attacks when he's off balance)

Just because no one officially called it a war doesn't mean Reggie hasn't been through a lot of severe combative scenarios with a multitude of enemies. Even when he wasn't being physically matched he had to be efficient about dealing with massive hordes of zombies colliding into his position, and when he did really meet his superior in the form of Super Brutes, he overcame that too. Keep in mind Super Brutes weren't just ridiculously strong, they also just couldn't be killed because they had no weak points and regenerated, his only way of taking them out was reducing them to so many pieces that even when they were still twitching around on the ground, they couldn't heal.

Experience wise it is impressive but it isn't realistically on the level that Edward had, as again he's fought in multiple extended wars over the period of 15 years and has slewn thousands of enemies in singular and multiple vs one engagements, he's an avid tactician and extremely resourceful man, if worst gets to worst he'll simply outlast Reggie by going days without sustenance and then kill him when his body requires rest.

If he's going to actually attack he doesn't have a choice. His ranged options won't stay viable, he strictly needs to have the sword enter Reggie's range to attack.

Correct, which is why he'd pick openings and wait until Reggie is off-guard to strike (this is a common tactic in blade to blade engagements against bigger fors)

Skill isn't magic, it can't just be casted to achieve an effect. There has to be some through line of actions, and there's nothing he can do to eliminate a risk inherent to melee when he has to use melee. Would he try poking at Reggie to bait his grab then superjump forward? As I mentioned earlier Brutes use that exact kind of tactic and Reggie's more than able to respond to it, and a grab or parry isn't going to have him throw his weight so forward he's unable to do that. Would he try attacking from above? That'd still require a leap, and it'd leave him at the mercy of gravity to send him into Reggie, so it'd better work.

Again, he's likely to allow Reggie to attack, using his Agility and Acrobatic skill to evade for long enough to land a clean hit when Reggie has overexerted himself and left himself off-guard.

To talk on leaping into the air, he likely could, since he's an incredibly fast draw and a near perfect shot, that may also be a viable tactic to kill him with.

He operates on pretty much any range his hands can reach, he doesn't rely on weapons or specific attacks since he can use whatever kick or punch he feels is appropriate, his habits are just "hit a guy in a way that works", it's not something that can just be nullified with mundane skill.

---

As an overall, because it is ultimately a fight between two guys with weapons and martial arts, it's a lot more prone to tossups than higher tier stuff, but Reggie does have distinct advantages. They aren't advantages that are impossible to tackle, but it would be rather difficult and it's more likely that Reggie can just take advantage of his end of things and eventually deliver a lethal pummeling, and his capability for comebacks seems a lot higher. I'll just vote for Reggie, at this stage.

Calling the ability to weave, dodge and outlast Reggie mundane alongside the ability to HIT BACK is crazy work.

Again with Edward's advantages in mobility, skill, intellectual capacity and bladework I am still going to prefer him in the current position.

Honestly I have Edward through skill and outlasting.

 

[DMUA]

He was able to lock blades with and briefly overpower him, probably a massive outlier but it's something he did.

Considering he is not rated as 7-C or Class K for this showing, it would indeed be an outlier. Especially with the wording of "overpower" instead of any finessing of movement.

Have you read what rage power is? It's strength through rage

You claimed it would make him Class K. His page does not indicate this, and if in tandem with the above it's supposed to elevate him to that extreme then it's banned by virtue of 9-B ratings being used for this thread, this isn't a Strongest of the wiki match (And I don't even agree with that, either)

• An exception would be if the restricted ability/technique has a separate tier from the main one, and is one the character can consciously restrict themselves from using. In this case, the match can be added.

Correct, however he's able leverage his blade to create openings when he's off-guard (such as after a few attacks when he's off balance)

This is very basic, any fighter worth their salt (many of which Reggie has encountered) would do this. Heck, he has this exact thing happen to him in the form of a tough survivor parrying him and 3 guys dog piling him with attacks after the fact and he still came out fine and got used to that kind of combat going forward.

Experience wise it is impressive but it isn't realistically on the level that Edward had, as again he's fought in multiple extended wars over the period of 15 years and has slewn thousands of enemies in singular and multiple vs one engagements

At some point it's not a skill feat as much as it's just a routine. Even if you've lived or fought for a large period of time, a lot of engagements will just happen the exact same way and you won't have your skills tested or elevated, you'll go in with what works and that'll work. In Reggie's case, this is something the ZM was very specifically avoiding by introducing a ton of new enemies that forced the players to re-evaluate the situation and have characters adapt as things ramped up. I've held for years that experience means very little compared to what that skill actively does, and Reggie's entire career is dealing with thousands of enemies on the regular

he's an avid tactician and extremely resourceful man, if worst gets to worst he'll simply outlast Reggie by going days without sustenance and then kill him when his body requires rest.

Reggie can last for days with very little to nothing, and he's even actively performed better when pushed into that circumstance.

Correct, which is why he'd pick openings and wait until Reggie is off-guard to strike (this is a common tactic in blade to blade engagements against bigger fors)

"Bigger forces" is the key term here. A group of enemies can scatter, have disagreements, stumble into one another, a lot more can go wrong than just one guy parrying and in turn waiting for his chance to grab the weapon and flip things way to his favor (which, is not really a common tactic in warfare engagements, most of the time it's not worthwhile, mainly since they're holding their own gear).

Again, he's likely to allow Reggie to attack, using his Agility and Acrobatic skill to evade for long enough to land a clean hit when Reggie has overexerted himself and left himself off-guard.

I'll keep saying it as many times as it needs to be heard... And I was going to just say "skill isn't magic" again, but I think I've already made good emphasis on why just "agility and acrobatics" isn't a compelling way to overcome this situation.

Skill isn't magic, it can't just be casted to achieve an effect. There has to be some through line of actions, and there's nothing he can do to eliminate a risk inherent to melee when he has to use melee. Would he try poking at Reggie to bait his grab then superjump forward? As I mentioned earlier Brutes use that exact kind of tactic and Reggie's more than able to respond to it, and a grab or parry isn't going to have him throw his weight so forward he's unable to do that. Would he try attacking from above? That'd still require a leap, and it'd leave him at the mercy of gravity to send him into Reggie, so it'd better work.

To talk on leaping into the air, he likely could, since he's an incredibly fast draw and a near perfect shot, that may also be a viable tactic to kill him with.

Speed was equalized (and just... Generally is the exact same between them anyways) and Reggie's very comfortable responding to this, as stated before. It's not going to be viable enough to swing things his way decisively, it's just one potential and extremely risky avenue of attack.

Calling the ability to weave, dodge and outlast Reggie mundane alongside the ability to HIT BACK is crazy work.

You are in fact, describing mundane combat tactics. Normal boxers weave, and dodge, outlast if that's what's viable, and of course they hit back. Mastery is when you elevate that to something consistently workable against a lot of people, and Reggie's certainly a cut above a lot of people.

Honestly I have Edward through skill and outlasting.

Either way this thread really can't be resolved with even both of us on the same page, so I'll let votes decide.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Reggie FRA

 

[Phoenks]

Reggie FRA

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

Considering he is not rated as 7-C or Class K for this showing, it would indeed be an outlier. Especially with the wording of "overpower" instead of any finessing of movement.

You claimed it would make him Class K. His page does not indicate this, and if in tandem with the above it's supposed to elevate him to that extreme then it's banned by virtue of 9-B ratings being used for this thread, this isn't a Strongest of the wiki match (And I don't even agree with that, either)


This is very basic, any fighter worth their salt (many of which Reggie has encountered) would do this. Heck, he has this exact thing happen to him in the form of a tough survivor parrying him and 3 guys dog piling him with attacks after the fact and he still came out fine and got used to that kind of combat going forward.

At some point it's not a skill feat as much as it's just a routine. Even if you've lived or fought for a large period of time, a lot of engagements will just happen the exact same way and you won't have your skills tested or elevated, you'll go in with what works and that'll work. In Reggie's case, this is something the ZM was very specifically avoiding by introducing a ton of new enemies that forced the players to re-evaluate the situation and have characters adapt as things ramped up. I've held for years that experience means very little compared to what that skill actively does, and Reggie's entire career is dealing with thousands of enemies on the regular

Reggie can last for days with very little to nothing, and he's even actively performed better when pushed into that circumstance.

"Bigger forces" is the key term here. A group of enemies can scatter, have disagreements, stumble into one another, a lot more can go wrong than just one guy parrying and in turn waiting for his chance to grab the weapon and flip things way to his favor (which, is not really a common tactic in warfare engagements, most of the time it's not worthwhile, mainly since they're holding their own gear).

I'll keep saying it as many times as it needs to be heard... And I was going to just say "skill isn't magic" again, but I think I've already made good emphasis on why just "agility and acrobatics" isn't a compelling way to overcome this situation.


Speed was equalized (and just... Generally is the exact same between them anyways) and Reggie's very comfortable responding to this, as stated before. It's not going to be viable enough to swing things his way decisively, it's just one potential and extremely risky avenue of attack.

You are in fact, describing mundane combat tactics. Normal boxers weave, and dodge, outlast if that's what's viable, and of course they hit back. Mastery is when you elevate that to something consistently workable against a lot of people, and Reggie's certainly a cut above a lot of people.

Either way this thread really can't be resolved with even both of us on the same page, so I'll let votes decide.

Yeah Edward is cooked
Reggie FRA

 

[Rayfire]

Reggie FRA and thats grace

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

Reggie FRA and thats grace

Imma conclude it early since there's nothing to do in return