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Raimi Spider-Man Downgrade

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MJF6219

MJF6219

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So currently the whole Verses's Ap comes from Green Goblin's pumpkin bombs for being able to vaporize six people. The problem with that feat is that the pumpkin bomb that vaporized six people was quite clearly not the same type of traditional pumpkin bomb used throughout the trilogy. The pumpkin Bombs that were normally used throughout the trilogy (the ones that vaporized Eddie Brock/the ones that both Spider-Man and New Goblin survived at point blank range) had a firey-explosion whenever they were detonated, while the pumpkin bomb that vaporized six people had some kind of strange heat flash when it detonated. Even various other Wikis have noticed this distinction between the different types of pumpkin bombs used throughout the trilogy, as stated here:

"He is seen using three varieties of his signature "Pumpkin Bombs": one which was a simple explosive; one that releases a bright, radioactive flash which reduces people to skeletons; and one that splits into flying, razor-bat blades."

So the strange heat flash pumpkin bombs are still definitely 8-C for being able to vaporize six people, but they were never seen again throughout the trilogy so there's no characters they could scale to.

So All Raimi Verse Spider-Man characters should be reverted back to 9-A since they actually only scale to Green Goblin's normal pumpkin bombs, which are 9-A for being able to vaporize Eddie Brock.
 
You can probably ask Spinosaurus75DinosaurFa to provide input as he was the calculatir of the original feat.

Personally, I'm in agreement to this, nothing ever shows that every Pumpkin Bomb is able to do that, and Gobby does have different types of Pumpkins with him
 
Yea I remember seeing that calc a long time ago and I also Remember never fully agreeing with it since It makes an Assumption about the How much energy it would require to vaporize the Symbiote when:

1. The symbiote isn't real, therefore it isn't made of any known substance.

2. The symbiote seems to be able to change it's overall size, volume, and mass at will, which would probably play a factor in how hard it is to vaporize it at any given moment.

3. Generally throughout most versions and incarnations of the symbiotes, their usually weak to fire and heat based attacks/explosions, which is probably the only reason why the pumpkin bomb was able to destroy it in the first place, considering that the Symbiote/Venom proved to be stronger and more durable then both Spider-Man and New Goblin, both of which were able to survive the pumpkin bomb point blank to the face without out ever getting vaporized.
 
I suppose that this seems fine, especially as Spino agrees with it.
 
@Zark and Antvasima

What do you guys personally think about Spino's calc? Not about the math part of it, but about it's assumption on much energy it would require to vaporize the Symbiote?
 
Honestly I reckon it would be harder to vapourize the symbiote. As such an "At least 9-A" should apply, right?
 
Yea I agree with an "At least Small Building level" since it would obviously be harder to vaporize a human and the Symbiote together rather then just vaporizing a human, but trying to figure out exactly how much energy it would require to vaporize the symbiote would be relatively impossible, for reasons I stated above.
 
So "At least Small Building level+" then?
 
Ehh, I think that last part confused some of us. When Zark said "At least 9-A" I don't think he meant "At least 9-A+". And the Small Building level+ rating literally only comes from Spino's calc that makes an assumption about the amount of energy it would require to vaporize the Symbiote, nothing else. I honestly have no idea how that calc was never questioned before since it makes an assumption about the energy required to vaporize a completely fictional creature that's made out of a completely fictional substance.

The math based part of the calc is completely fine though, vaporizing someone of Eddie Brock's size would indeed be 338,370,013.85 joules.

And we obviously still know that vaporizing the symbiote and Eddie together still requires more energy then just vaporizing Eddie by himself, but we'll never truly know how much more energy that requires since the symbiote is not real and is not made out of a real substance. It is for those reasons why I personally think "At least Small Building level" would be the perfect rating to apply.
 
Well, we need to make a decision, and should preferably scale from an accepted calculation result.
 
But if the accepted calculation result is "Small Building level+", shouldn't we use that instead?
 
I disagree with not counting the symbiote calc. While the symbiote is usually weak to fire, this one wasn't. It's most likely he died from the bomb due to being weakened by the loud sounds. Also, shouldn't we be able to scale the flashing bomb with the explosion one? It seems a bit weird that Norman would make another bomb that is his strongest and only uses it once yet has no issue using his other two bombs.
 
I don't think scaling the flash bomb to his regular bombs would be a good idea at all since there quite different from each other. The flash bomb seemed to purely be an Anti-personnel Bomb since it vaporized those people but did absolutely nothing to the surrounding environment/non-organic materials, while his normal bombs are just conventional explosives.
 
Not exactly, if anything you can argue the normal ones are stronger. While it does mostly revolve around environmental damage, it can still do what the flashing bomb did. The flashing bomb completely vaporizes your skin, blood, organs, and then your bones. In Spider-Man 3, it did exactly that but much faster. There were zero traces of Eddie when he was blown up and eventually the symbiote. Nothing was left after the explosions. So I still think they can be scaled off each other since they have similar feats.
 
Ugh. On from one Assumption to another real quick. I swear man, just a bunch of scaling and assumptions.

This wiki is not about trying to upgrade a character/verse every chance you get nor is it about trying to see how high you can get your favorite character/verse up the Ap/tier list. It's about trying to accurately gauge a characters/verse's Ap based on the consistency of their feats and abilities.

Only the known is safe, and what we do know is that Green Goblin's Pumpkin bombs vaporized Eddie Brock and Vaporizing someone of Eddie Brocks weight requires 338,370,013.85 joules. We also know that Both Spider-Man and New Goblin survived those same Pumpkin bombs at point blank range and have been able to harm each other.

We have absolutely no idea How much energy it would require to vaporize the symbiote/Venom since he/it is not a real substance, and like you said he was likely only vaporized because he was weakened by sound before hand. That actually makes perfect sense, since the Symbiote/Venom is Supposed to be stronger and more durable than the likes of Spider-Man and New Goblin, But both of them were able to survive the same bomb without getting vaporized at all.

Another thing We know is that Green Goblin's flash bombs and his conventional explosive bombs are obviously two different kinds of bombs with two different kinds of purposes. If they Truly are equal in Ap, then why would Green Goblin/Oscorp even go through the process of making them two different kinds of bombs in the first place. It's like comparing a flash bang to a frag grenade or a stick of dynamite. Just because they've done similar things does not mean they should automatically be deemed as equal, especially when considering that the flash bomb was only ever used once throughout the entire series and it's Calc is literally Six times higher then the normal bomb's Calc.

Look, I made this thread because I saw a problem with this versus's Ap, I saw something that needed to be fixed/corrected. I did not ******* make this thread with the intention of it turning into some random "Let's just upgrade the verse based on some random scaling and assumptions that have no concrete proof behind them" thread, which is what it seems to be quickly turning into.

With all that being said, I have no ILL intentions to this verse nor anyone in this thread. In fact I care very deeply about this verse, which is why I am so dead set on Making sure it is listed as Accurately as it possibly could be.
 
I literally have no idea why you have the need to bring this up as that is derailing.

While we don't know exactly what the symbiote is, this doesn't mean we cannot scale it to at least a human as it is portrayed to be far more durable than what it usually is. Even if it was weakened, I seriously doubt it was to the point he became extremely weak that he's below a human. We should be aware that the symbiote is still a strong substance, since Peter still struggles to rip him out even while he's being weakened.

Them having different purposes does not negate my argument at all. It still has the same power. Why make those two bombs? Who knows, maybe because he wants one specifically for destruction or whatever. It doesn't matter either way. My point was that the explosive bomb should be comparable to the flash bomb due to having similar feats. Sure, the flash bomb affected six people, however they were all fairly close to each other and the bomb was at a close range. This is important because we know the explosive bomb can also vaporize people, and it's explosive size should be comparable if not possibly larger than what the flash bombs have shown. So if the explosive bomb can achieve the same feat and have a longer range than the other bomb, I see no reason why we shouldn't say it can't affect six people as well due to it having the same power and larger range.

I am not upgrading the verse. I am defending its current status. Because surprise, people will disagree sometimes. And that will be happening a lot. I care for this verse as well, but that doesn't matter either. I still see zero reason to bring any of this up.
 
If there is an 8-C feat with the explosive bombs, then it'd be fine to scale them up at 8-C, but as is, comparing Flash Bombs to Regular Pumpkin Bombs is kinda headcanon-ish and assumptious of the bombs' capabilities. The reason we're having a distinction for "flash bombs" is that nothing in entire verse looks like that explosion, to the point it is repeatedly mocked by other and tbh it is the most visual showcase of an outlier.

Also preferably stop screaming bias at each others' throats. It'll get us nowhere and shut down the entire thread if it goes too far.
 
The way the flash bomb blew up doesn't matter. The flash bomb vaporized the six people (who were all close to each other) at a close range. The explosive bomb can already vaporize people as well. So due to it having a larger range, in a scenario that Norman threw an explosive bomb instead, it would've likely done the same thing. It can vaporize people and has a larger range than the flash bomb. It seems likely that they are comparable.
 
@Zark

Yep I agree. The normal Pumpkin Bombs are Small Building level at minimum for vaporizing Eddie Brock and the Symbiote. The original debate was rather or not we should assume the amount of energy it took to vaporize the symbiote, which in Spino's calc he assumes vaporizing the symbiote would be equal to the amount of energy it took to vaporize Eddie Brock.

What's ur personal opinion about assuming the amount of energy it took to vaporize the Symbiote?
 
How do you assume that the flashbomb wasn't made for the express purpose of vaporization and thus had a higher, more targeted method of attack others as compared to the regular Pumpkin Bombs? How can you assume they have the same yield? A machine gun and a catapult shoot projectiles, doesn't mean they're comparable in any way. Even if they were, what feats prove it save for proving negatives ("You can't not prove regular bombs evaporate 6 people")?
 
Because what exactly proves this? Nothing. And again, this isn't related to my points. My main point is range. From the only time we've seen it used, it has a more smaller range than the explosive bomb and we know this due to Mary Jane being not too far from the flash bomb (you can see where she was sitting that the people were fairly close to her). So we know its range is a lot shorter. Now lets put the same scenario with a different bomb. As we know, this bomb can also vaporize people. And we have seen how large its range is. Now if we were to take those six people who were very close to each other and throw that bomb at them, the same bomb that was able to vaporize a human even faster, it doesn't seem that farfetched when you think about it that the same thing would happen. Range is my main argument. If six people, which is very likely, fit in the expolsion then they're vaporized. Because we know that both can vaporize someone, so wouldn't its range also be an important factor of how many it can vaporize?
 
So should we use 9-A or 9-A+, and do we have enough consensus to start with the revisions soon?
 
It seems like we have come to an agreement then. Is somebody willing to apply this change?
 
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