Raiden and Metal Gear Rising Revisions

[Dark649]

I saw that the last revision did not fixed them, but only raised more confusions on the profiles like Raide is at least Small Town level for matching the EXCELSIUS, who is only Small Town level and cutting through Armstrong hardened body, which is listed as Town level, Armstrong reasoning for being likely Town level needs to be better explained [I don't know how the Ripper Blade multipliers works] and he is Sub-Relativistic in reactions for being able to counter blade mode raiden, but in raiden page it states he is Sub-Relativistic only in ripper blade mode, so these mistakes should be fixed. I also think the reasonings should be fixed to avoid confusion.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Oh boi, Tldr:

Armstrong stomped Raiden in blade mode in game, which buffs him to town level. Raiden damaged armstrong armored body, which indicated to me that he was at least small town level.

Yes, that was a mistake on my part. Raiden is sub relativistic in blade mode and variants. Maybe short burst speed as well considering how it works in game, but I admit that is a reach.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I kinda compromised on at least small town level, I personally think he is town level or we drop the armstrong thing entirely: and reword it to 'Wore down armstrong weakened, hardened body with repeated slashes'

 

[Heilergott]

But cuttuing through armsstrongs body has nothing to do with AP. Raidens Blade ignores Durability at least to an extend

 

[KinkiestSins]

But cuttuing through armsstrongs body has nothing to do with AP. Raidens Blade ignores Durability at least to an extend

Again, as said in the last thread.

Raiden original HF blade, Armstrong broken even saying it was a 'nice knife' and he tanked punches from raiden like nothing

He succesfully cut through him with Masamune tho, thus current rating.

But I will concede the reasoning for the profiles is bad.

Edit: And honestly, I think the current ratings while my fault, is due to the lack of people who know metal gear that are admins who can contribute their opinion.

Matt was the only other admin who commented on the last thread, I do believe.

 

[KinkiestSins]

Playing devils advocate, for ap we can do the following.

A. Consider the multiplier for blade mode just game mechanics or pis and just have everyone be flatline Low 7-C. B. Considering Masumune Raiden > Armstrong > HF Blade Raiden, merits at least Low 7-C (where they are currently at) C. Go back what they were before minus speed. Armstrong is back to Low 7-C, raiden is Low 7-C as well with 7-C blade mode.

Speed tho I think is a non issue, we can probably just scale all mgs top tiers to this speed imo.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

Yeah I'm with kinkiest in this armstrong stomped raiden blade mode to all hell with little to no effort so yeah and the speed should be fixed

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I'm with kinkiest in this armstrong stomped raiden blade mode to all hell with little to no effort so yeah and the speed should be fixed

What he said.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Kinkiest is right. I agree wit hhim, as I did before.

 

[SheevShezarrine]

But cuttuing through armsstrongs body has nothing to do with AP. Raidens Blade ignores Durability at least to an extend

Armstrong's hardened body counters HF blade dura negation

 

[SheevShezarrine]

What I was trying to get at with my revisiom thread was:

Raiden: Town level durability (using Ripper Mode doesn't hurt him)

Armstrong: Town level AP (hurts Raiden w/o use of dura negation) (further justifies Town level hardened body durability, since he hardens his body before striking)

But others made the edits, so the revisions weren't implemented as cleanly as I would've hoped.

In addition, I recently came up with more revisions

Monsoon: Town level AP and dura with Sub-relativistic reactions and combat speed (matched strikes with Ripper Mode Raiden, could react to him in Ripper Blade Mode)

Sundowner: Town level durability with explosive armor (can take strikes from Ripper Mode Raiden without breaking, also resists HF blade dura negation)

Jetstream Sam: possibly Tow level AP and dura (can catch Raiden's blade even when Raiden is in Ripper Mode, took strikes from Armstrong), at least Sub-relativistic attack speed with quick draw (cut Armstrong faster than the nanomachines could activate, which even Raiden failed to do)

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I agree with Kink

 

[Kyle_Ramos]

Raiden should be 7-A just so i can make him fight 2b

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Raiden should be 7-A just so i can make him fight 2b

He has speed advantage and durability negation so he could win against her regardless

 

[Antvasima]

@KinkiestSins & SheevShezarrine

Do you wish to clean up the pages, so the reasons for the statistics are easier to understand?

 

[Huesito88]

So are Raiden and Armstrong staying at Town level?

 

[Antvasima]

It seems so, but I am not sure.

 

[KinkiestSins]

I guess Sheev makes sense. I think his reasoning seems fine. Honestly, I think Matt and Dark however should take a look at these changes before we just implement them.

I can at the very least modify the reasoning for the big three. Armstrong: At Least Low 7-C, Likely 7-C (Stomped Raiden even in blade mode, broke his original HF blade and could not be damaged by raidens attacks.) Raiden is: At Least Low 7-C, 7-C with Ripper Mode (Wore down Armstrongs body.) Jetstream Sam: At Least Low 7-C, Possibly 7-C (Took strikes from Armstrong and Blade mode raiden.)

To make things more clear and not have people confused, I think it might be best to 'restore' anyone who is a top tier by end of game to be 'At Least Low 7-C'

As for speed: Everyone is At Least Massively Hypersonic, with Sub-Relativistic combat speed and reactions if they can keep up with blade mode raiden (Which Armstrong, Sam and a few others can.)

But I have to do some more research on monsoon and sundowner upgrades, but I think they are fine on paper.

 

[Huesito88]

Isn't the gap between baseline Small Town and Town level 5.8?

 

[KinkiestSins]

Isn't the gap between baseline Small Town and Town level 5.8?

Yeah, which is why we accept Blade Mode raiden at 'Town Level'

Multiplier ranges from obd being 7.8x and we use 9x I believe.

 

[KinkiestSins]

It seems so, but I am not sure.

I am honestly fine with them just being town level.

But armstrong is the only one staying at just town level. Raiden will be the same as before, just different phrasing.

I have been toying with the back of my head of scaling everyone in MGR at Low 7-C since that seems to be the min his new robot body can do, but I want more thoughts on this.

But I am fine with what Sheev said, I still think Armstrong is fine where he is and I am willing to upgrade Raiden to just be flatline 7-C as before, but I will also be fine with how we currently rank him.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

yeah sheev makes sense to me as well

 

[PsychicCipher]

I think it will be:

Low 7-C normally, 7-C with Ripper Mode or with Sam's Muramasa. What do you think?

 

[KinkiestSins]

@TO2 While I agree with that, the reason why we didnt have 7-C via murasama is because it is was controversial so a compromise was made. He is likely just 7-C with ripper mode.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

Why does Raiden have sub-relativistic speeds?

Sorry if I'm treading on already-argued grounds but:


1) In-game he can't follow explosions. Armored cars when you destroy them will not explode while he's looking at them in Blade mode- they're coded in such a way that he somewhat literally cannot observe them explode even in Ripper mode.

2) Also his enemies are almost-always seen moving when he's QTE-based killing them. Slowly yes, but still moving, including gravity bringing bits of them to the ground. Relativistic should mean stuff around him is frozen when this is rarely the case.

3) In addition, he's allowed to walk around in Blade and Ripper mode and we can see his speeds compared to the bullets the enemies use, specified to be NATO rounds, 5.56×45mm rounds. While he can outrun them, they're far from motionless.

 

[KinkiestSins]

@Friendly

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:LordXcano/Raiden's_Speed_Against_the_Rain_(Redux)

Because of this calc.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

So one instance of objects being practically stationary overrides all the other (more numerous) instances of them moving further distances?


I haven't commented much so I don't quite know how it works around here. Certainly most of his feats in the cinematics do not imply relativistic movements and according reaction-time. In the very next boss fight against Sundowner he's hit by not one, but several missiles. I can't help but feel that putting one feat over others, especially a feat that involves a plot-based battle where he cannot run out of energy, comes across as cherry-picking or something similar.


That particular thread also seems odd because each of those objects only needs to be sliced once to not strike Raiden. Why then use a value you can only get by slashing the machines long past the point of use?

 

[KinkiestSins]

This is calc in game and also, no one is 'shown' to be FTL in db, bayonetta etc etc.

If the speeds in most anime and games were accurate, your brain would be unable to process them. Saying it doesnt imply 'relativistic' means this can be applied to every verse because of cinematic timing and actual timing in canon being different.

I cant vouch for the math, and I dont mind if someone else wants to correct me on this, but saying it doesnt imply something therefore it isnt true, makes no sense. This applies to basically most fiction.

 

[Antvasima]

KinkiestSins is correct.

 

[Antvasima]

So, about the cleanups...

 

[Huesito88]

Kinkiestsins stated many things whats going to happen again?

"A. Consider the multiplier for blade mode just game mechanics or pis and just have everyone be flatline Low 7-C. B. Considering Masumune Raiden > Armstrong > HF Blade Raiden, merits at least Low 7-C (where they are currently at) C. Go back what they were before minus speed. Armstrong is back to Low 7-C, raiden is Low 7-C as well with 7-C blade mode."

 

[KinkiestSins]

Basically.

I approve Sheev's changes and if it is fine with you ant, I can get them implemented now.

I can also wait.


TLDR:

Speed for top tiers: Sam, Armstrong, Raiden

Sub-Relativistic - Scaling from Raiden in Ripper Mode. Armstrong scales to Raiden. Monsoon kept up with Ripper Mode Raiden so he gets it. Sam gets attack speed with it.

Durability; Sundowner gets Town Level durability via tanking many of raiden's attacks.

AP: Everyone stated above becomes 'At Least Low 7-C, Possibly/Likely 7-C'


The speed is an issue right now, we can debate ap later because I honestly think scaling every boss in game should be Low 7-C since all of them at least kept up with Base Raiden, but I will wait for more thoughts.

Edit: Monsoon also gets Sub-Rel attack/combat speed.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. What about the intention to better clarify the statistics for visitors to the profiles?

 

[KinkiestSins]

Okay. What about the intention to better clarify the statistics for visitors to the profiles?

I think two notes would be needed:

Note One: While Raiden did overpower and defeat armstrong, this is likely because of Armstrong being worn down by multiple attacks as well as his energy being depleted throughout the fight. Masamune does not make Raiden town level as it did not damage Armstrong in a significant way and thus his rating at 'At Least Low 7-C.'

Note Two (For Armstrong): Armstrong at full power was able to break raidens sword easily, stomped raiden in and out of blade mode as such it can be inferred he is Town Level via blade mode multipliers.


Speed for Raiden: Sub-Relativistic (2.6 the speed of light.)

Speed for everyone else: Sub-Relativistic (Scaling from Raiden in ripper blade mode)

I find what sheev said for speed and ap being accurate enough we can use that as well as reasoning.

Edit: I think I addressed most counter-arguments regarding this, but further input is welcome.

Edit 2: We can also have a note specifically on Armstrongs profile that because of blade mode multipliers, he is 10 Kilitons.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Let's wait to see what SheevShezarrine and Matthew think.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I think that makes sense for what kinky said. Raiden managed to wear down armstrong to do significant damage which he can damage but not as much AFAIK. Full power did bane style to HF took out raiden despite having blade mode

Speed I can vouch for it too

 

[SheevShezarrine]

Makes sense

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Feel free to perform the changes then.

 

[Friendlysociopath]

This is calc in game and also, no one is 'shown' to be FTL in db, bayonetta etc etc.
If the speeds in most anime and games were accurate, your brain would be unable to process them. Saying it doesnt imply 'relativistic' means this can be applied to every verse because of cinematic timing and actual timing in canon being different.

I cant vouch for the math, and I dont mind if someone else wants to correct me on this, but saying it doesnt imply something therefore it isnt true, makes no sense. This applies to basically most fiction.

I certainly understand that you can't show much above superhuman speeds and still be visible- but isn't that a bit of a cop-out when other feats show extremely different speeds? If that's the case, how can you be sure the higher speed is the correct one? (If this should be asked elsewhere I do apologize again). If you don't activate Blade Mode at all and run to the side to dodge the vehicles they'll still be moving about the same.

So if someone has a feat calc'd at Relativistic speeds in gameplay in a QTE, it doesn't matter if cutscenes or other QTEs in gameplay show different speeds? It's not a calc but I definitely know via my own experience that bullets will still be moving even at max-slow from Ripper Mode + plus parry. You can even move faster than them and pass them up. I also know through my own experience Raiden cannot observe an explosion begin with armored cars. How then do you decide? Do you take the higher value and ignore anything else that contradicts it? Do you compare the number of speed instances and see which occurs more often?

That's basically my question, how do you decide what speed is the one you'll post? Especially when cutscenes depict a character failing to react to some threats they should be able to based on the calculated speeds?


On a separate note- why would you scale people to Raiden's Blade Modes when every battle hinges on them not reacting to it for Raiden to win? Not just for the finisher, but during the battle they all have times to blitz them. Mistral can't react to it. Sam can't react to it. Sundowner can't react to it. Even Monsoon can't actually react to it if you hit his head instead of anywhere else.