[R3M2] Frogman & Hecate vs DIO & Clover [0-0-0]

[LeoEpicGamer8910]

See the tourney hub for more cool stuff
​

Match Conditions
Speed will be equalized for all matches
Characters are only allowed specified optional equipment
Starting location is New York City
Starting distance is 10 meter

Character A	Character B	Key A	Key B	Votes
Laser Forgman	Dr. Hecate	Combat Stage 4	Golden Hecate Unit, Super Mega-Mega Mech	0
Dio Brando	Clover	Awakened DIO	Genocide Route	0
Inconclusive				0

 

[SSB64]

.....

You know what? No.

Sure. The odds seem heavily stacked in Dr. Hectate and Laser Frogman's favor, and sure they have Hax up the wazoo, but I'm not about to let everyone doubt Clover and the world of Undertale as a whole.

Rayfire.
VeneficaAuthor.
LeoEpicGamer8910
Javenplayz253
ExSENNA

Everyone.....
For the sake of humankind, these two enemies that stand before me.

THEY WILL KNOW JUSTICE!

 

[Rayfire]

.....

You know what? No.

Sure. The odds seem heavily stacked in Dr. Hectate and Laser Frogman's favor, and sure they have Hax up the wazoo, but I'm not about to let everyone doubt Clover and the world of Undertale as a whole.

Rayfire.
VeneficaAuthor.
LeoEpicGamer8910
Javenplayz253
ExSENNA

Everyone.....
For the sake of humankind, these two enemies that stand before me.

THEY WILL KNOW JUSTICE!

Dayum, im rooting for both teams obviously but bro seems locked in take some spiral power dude, YOUR DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!




(Good luck to everyone here obviously, lol, maybe i'll drop in occasionally but i gotta focus on studying for now lol)

 

[SSB64]

Dayum, im rooting for both teams obviously but bro seems locked in take some spiral power dude, YOUR DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!!!




(Good luck to everyone here obviously, lol, maybe i'll drop in occasionally but i gotta focus on studying for now lol)

(Of course lol. If I'm going down, I'm doing so swinging.)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So they resist Time Stop?

 

[Rayfire]

So they resist Time Stop?

Frogman apparently needs to burn massive amounts of energy to move in it, but hecate isn't affected with any repercussions i think

 

[SSB64]

Frogman apparently needs to burn massive amounts of energy to move in it, but hecate isn't affected with any repercussions i think

Funnily enough, I actually see two ways for Dio/Clover to win. The far less likely way would be for Dio to beat Laser Frogman and Clover fights Hecate. As strange as it is to say, in this scenario, Clover, in character, would actually try to SPARE Hecate rather that fight her.

See, the Genocide Route for Clover is a name that's a bit misleading. A more accurate name would be the Vengeance route. He only went after Monsters due to them having killed the five humans who fell into the Underground. It would be out of character for them to attack Hecate, at least at the start, and given DIO's first move is usually Time Stop (Which he can spam), and Laser Frogman looks to need a lot of power to get out of it, then DIO would, at the very least, severely weaken Laser Frogman from the start.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Frogman apparently needs to burn massive amounts of energy to move in it, but hecate isn't affected with any repercussions i think

Hecate can handle time stop without a hitch, as for Frogman, he is able to ‘refresh’ stamina to an extent and Stage 4 has immense stamina anyway, as he was 26,000 years of experience honing his fighting ability using time stop on its own won’t weaken frogman to the point of any worrying, at least not right away

 

[SSB64]

Hecate can handle time stop without a hitch, as for Frogman, he is able to ‘refresh’ stamina to an extent and Stage 4 has immense stamina anyway, as he was 26,000 years of experience honing his fighting ability using time stop on its own won’t weaken frogman to the point of any worrying, at least not right away

How often can the Frogman do that, exactly? Also, Dio can spam it unlike Jotaro, and also unlike Jotaro, the more Dio uses it, the longer it lasts so each time he uses it, Frogman will have to expend more and more energy to do so.

Not to mention, can Frogman even hurt Stands?

 

[Froggytron]

.....

You know what? No.

Sure. The odds seem heavily stacked in Dr. Hectate and Laser Frogman's favor, and sure they have Hax up the wazoo, but I'm not about to let everyone doubt Clover and the world of Undertale as a whole.

Rayfire.
VeneficaAuthor.
LeoEpicGamer8910
Javenplayz253
ExSENNA

Everyone.....
For the sake of humankind, these two enemies that stand before me.

THEY WILL KNOW JUSTICE!

Hohoo, Frogman is being challenged once more

See, the Genocide Route for Clover is a name that's a bit misleading. A more accurate name would be the Vengeance route. He only went after Monsters due to them having killed the five humans who fell into the Underground. It would be out of character for them to attack Hecate, at least at the start, and given DIO's first move is usually Time Stop (Which he can spam), and Laser Frogman looks to need a lot of power to get out of it, then DIO would, at the very least, severely weaken Laser Frogman from the start.

I see, but Clover still seems to be super guilty by Sin Vision policies (for example how he attacked and tried to slay the bird girl in the Snowdin area, despite her being a low sin-meter and so friendly), unlike Frisk, Frogman will want to slay him as brutally possible here.

As for Combat Stage4 Frogman still having trouble moving in time stop, he still has many Red Laser spells he can summon & use through his mind (which still operates), featuring A.T. shields, portals, Laser Storm, and much more. As these can be spammed in numbers (it's stage 4 with over 20K years of mastery), I can see Frogman very likely successfully defending against Dio in stopped time (even when saving energy and not moving).

Not to mention, can Frogman even hurt Stands?

Possibly with DRAGON Saber bites, but sensing them and landing hits will be problematic, hurting Dio is a way better option (and with stats alone The World can hardly scratch Frogman)

 

[Froggytron]

Anyway, as for how Frogman would kickstart the fight (given that time stop isn't used right away, then it would be attempted later), here is my suggestion: Frogman gets into a death calm state right when start kicks in (sensing two high sin-meters), which in majority of scenarios pushes him to look through precog (which although blurry, would be enough to deduce time stop and resets), where this new knowledge is right away shared with Hecate (via telepathy using shared cells) + instruct her to focus on Dio and kill him slowly and painfully given all the harm to innocents he did for pure selfish & ego reasons

The very next fragment of time (if unstopped), Frogman creates a few body clones around him with one hand swing (where these clones use 'Blood Bullets' to exponentially spam waves of orbiting laser blood around both them and Hecate), while with second hand and mind focus casting a sphere of portals remotely around Clover (pretty much instantly due to Frogman's thinking speed higher compared to body one, than Gunnix's), including their smaller versions in front the palm of his second hand.

Through it, Frogman can send very powerful, yet not instantly killing waves of extreme heat + extreme radiation + aging effect + loudness, focused in speed-accelerated molecule doses to hit Clover from all angles directly into the insides of his nerves and vulnerable points of the body (flying from the portals summoned around him), causing nightmarish tormenting and unimaginable pain. With over 20 000 years of experience in killing and tormenting similar criminals, Frogman's knowledge allows him to torment even extremely pain-resisting beats, it's likely Clover will have a hard time thinking and doing any action once inflicted. Is Genocide Clover likely to use his mind reading + invulnerability at the very fight start to not get hit by the "continuous train of nightmarish pain", or can he manage even past its inflicted?

 

[Rayfire]

Is Genocide Clover likely to use his mind reading + invulnerability at the very fight start to not get hit by the "continuous train of nightmarish pain", or can he manage even past its inflicted?

I can’t really speak for clover much beyond what’s on his profile, though I think there is a fairly big question hanging in the air here: Would clovers supernatural willpower be sufficient enough to damage or defend against frogman? Willpower seems like a fairly important factor in fights for the frogmen according to the red laser manipulation page, so I think another parameter here is how exactly that would apply in a fight. Is willpower just an offensive thing, or can it also be used to mitigate effects of the attacks too?

 

[Froggytron]

Willpower seems like a fairly important factor in fights for the frogmen according to the red laser manipulation page, so I think another parameter here is how exactly that would apply in a fight. Is willpower just an offensive thing, or can it also be used to mitigate effects of the attacks too?

That's a good question asked In FU, willpower is precious, as it is sometimes taken as another energy^2 source, able to feed like EXP in the short-term, it behaves as a superior energy compared for example to an electrical one. 'Energy gathering (EXP Collection)' sections cover it greaty on the F.P. page.

It's also why it influences with Soul Crystal cores, when you repeat that 'they are built from energy^2 and meant to store energy^2'. Melee hits carrying willpower on them (behaving as short term energy^2) messes with them and forms cracks, it's sort of like an exploit.

But it's nothing that would save you from attacks or mitigate deadly effects, Stickmen can run as determined as they can and still die You need to have super-rare means to convert willpower into energy^2 and store it (which only the two strongest powers in FU reality show being capable of) and from these storages create attacks and defensive powers, in absolute majority of scenarios still requiring prep time

 

[SSB64]

I see, but Clover still seems to be super guilty by Sin Vision policies (for example how he attacked and tried to slay the bird girl in the Snowdin area, despite her being a low sin-meter and so friendly), unlike Frisk, Frogman will want to slay him as brutally possible here.

Which is why I said Dio would have to be the one to take out Laser Frogman so that Clover has an opening to SPARE Hecate. Actually, could Laser Frogman see/perceive The World?

(given that time stop isn't used right away, then it would be attempted later)

This is somewhat correct. DIO's first move is indeed to freeze time and end a fight ASAP by either punching them a bunch or phasing The World into his target's body to destroy them from the inside. However, if he's goaded into an actual fight, he'll do so. Plus, he may be cocky, but at his core, he's a battle tactician that plays things safe in order to not make as crucial mistakes as possible (And ones that are made can be RESET by Clover). Unless Hecate has some means to evicerate Clover all at once in one shot in all aspects, Clover will just go back to his last SAVE with knowledge of what happened before.

As for Laser Frogman's arsenal. Stands passively protect the user from harm. If Laser Frogman tries to Danmaku DIO, The World should help mitigate it since not only does DIO have good Regen, but The World can't really be harmed by the energy balls, and has traded blows with ridiculously fast and skilled opponents who can fling punches at high enough speeds to create many after images. Also, if the Laser blood is actually blood, then that would be an idiotic move to use against DIo who uses blood to heal himself (DIO has semi-Danmaku via his Flesh Buds.)

Also, here's something you probably wouldn't see coming..... The starting range of the tourney is a big disadvantage for Frogman here. DIO's Stand is just close enough in range to Laser Frogman to have The World phase into Frogman's body right from the very start of the fight. Furthermore, DIO, as I mentioned before, will want to kill Frogman ASAP. No time for Frogman to even scout Clover since if he does, he's getting a likely invincible Stand in his stomach that stops time and rips him apart from the inside out, or DIO could hypnotize Frogman if Frogman tries to look at DIO to scan him. Sure Frogman has Autopilot, but from it looks like, it wouldn't stop DIO from potentially coaxing some information out of Frogman if that ever happened to be a scenario that need play out.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Which is why I said Dio would have to be the one to take out Laser Frogman so that Clover has an opening to SPARE Hecate. Actually, could Laser Frogman see/perceive The World?

He doesn’t need to, he should have all the tools he needs to beat Dio independently of The World

This is somewhat correct. DIO's first move is indeed to freeze time and end a fight ASAP by either punching them a bunch or phasing The World into his target's body to destroy them from the inside. However, if he's goaded into an actual fight, he'll do so. Plus, he may be cocky, but at his core, he's a battle tactician that plays things safe in order to not make as crucial mistakes as possible (And ones that are made can be RESET by Clover). Unless Hecate has some means to evicerate Clover all at once in one shot in all aspects, Clover will just go back to his last SAVE with knowledge of what happened before.

• Matter Manipulation, Regeneration Negation, Greater Vibration Manipulation, Limited Deconstruction and Power Nullification (Up to Low-High. Hecate's Golden Mech possesses 'Golden Fire Lasers' which are based on her research into the Suppression Mode of Abliter and the data Aiden gained from his fight with Albion. The lasers are able to nullify stronger powers as well simply on contact with them combining its regular properties with vibration and such to blow the matter apart. Hecate calls them her 'ultimate revenge' on anyone who reminds her of the ones who sent her to the institution, destroying at a sub-atomic level.)

I doubt clover survives these

As for Laser Frogman's arsenal. Stands passively protect the user from harm. If Laser Frogman tries to Danmaku DIO, The World should help mitigate it since not only does DIO have good Regen, but The World can't really be harmed by the energy balls, and has traded blows with ridiculously fast and skilled opponents who can fling punches at high enough speeds to create many after images. Also, if the Laser blood is actually blood, then that would be an idiotic move to use against DIo who uses blood to heal himself (DIO has semi-Danmaku via his Flesh Buds.)

Frogman has been fighting and honing skills for well over 20,000 years, Dio is super impressive but there’s no way he measures up. Frogman’s blood is also very different from the blood Dio has used to heal, it’s extremely heated and outright alien in nature. DRAGON saber should also be able to hurt the stand given its intangibility negation

Also, here's something you probably wouldn't see coming..... The starting range of the tourney is a big disadvantage for Frogman here. DIO's Stand is just close enough in range to Laser Frogman to have The World phase into Frogman's body right from the very start of the fight. Furthermore, DIO, as I mentioned before, will want to kill Frogman ASAP. No time for Frogman to even scout Clover since if he does, he's getting a likely invincible Stand in his stomach that stops time and rips him apart from the inside out, or DIO could hypnotize Frogman if Frogman tries to look at DIO to scan him. Sure Frogman has Autopilot, but from it looks like, it wouldn't stop DIO from potentially coaxing some information out of Frogman if that ever happened to be a scenario that need play out.

Frogman can just outright break out of mind stuff through Red Laser Awakening and his cells have backup intelligence anyway, so even if Dio could hypnotize him frogman could overwrite it. Entering frogman’s body also results in this:

• TP Deferoid - Activated instantly with up to 3 second duration (based on the danger level of the hit) upon main Frogman getting a crucial hit (up to 8 seconds cooldown starting upon activation). Alters armor of tiny portals even filling Frogman's body with, teleporting all forms of attacks incoming (even their DMG energy) into the around area, twisting them in opposite direction. All 'unwanted' in body (such as poisons, negative effects, damage) is teleported out as well. The clones experience 50% version of this.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

DRAGON saber should also be able to hurt the stand given its intangibility negation.

Do note that Stands have layered Intangibility.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Do note that Stands have layered Intangibility.

It doesn’t really matter whether or not frogman can or can’t harm the stand, he is perfectly capable of harming and beating Dio himself

 

[Chariot190]

Does this dude resist all 3 of Dio's 3 mind hax options, vampiric toxins, freezing, fusionism, biomanip or life force drain?
Also mind you, even if Dio dies, if the lad gets spored or budded, it's mutual destruction because every single cell in his body would be altered and he'd become a mindless blob.

Frogman’s blood is also very different from the blood Dio has used to heal, it’s extremely heated and outright alien in nature.

Dio doesn't use blood to heal, he uses the life force contained in the blood to heal.
Unless this dude doesn't have a SOUL and or LIFE FORCE/LIFE ENERGY, this doesn't matter.

Also the profile is fucky, what's his LS in this key.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Anything but the tensile strength!

 

[Chariot190]

Anything but the tensile strength!

Nah not even that, but an invincible ghost he cant interact with (and thus escape) grabbing him is kinda problematic af, assuming he has lower LS.

Kinda just lets Dio do whatever the **** he wants to him for free.

 

[Rayfire]

Also the profile is fucky, what's his LS in this key.

It’s stage 4 frogman, so class Z

 

[Rayfire]

It’s stage 4 frogman, so class Z

Wait actually, the calc says it’s class M…

 

[Chariot190]

It’s stage 4 frogman, so class Z

Well.

Does bro res life-force absorption, or freezing, or 3 diff mind hax options (someone mentioned hypnosis, but that's the bad one), or the random weird biomanip dio has.

Life force in particular, that's bad, kind of skips the need to even kill, bypasses regen because life force, and if Dio so chooses, can end with them becoming a zombie.

Wait actually, the calc says it’s class M…

Ok then bro just gets manhandled by a dude he can't even attack back.

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Does this dude resist all 3 of Dio's 3 mind hax options, vampiric toxins, freezing, fusionism, biomanip or life force drain?
Also mind you, even if Dio dies, if the lad gets spored or budded, it's mutual destruction because every single cell in his body would be altered and he'd become a mindless blob.

Dio doesn't use blood to heal, he uses the life force contained in the blood to heal.
Unless this dude doesn't have a SOUL and or LIFE FORCE/LIFE ENERGY, this doesn't matter.

Also the profile is fucky, what's his LS in this key.

Frogman is essentially immune to mind manipulation as of Stage 3, freezing won’t matter because Red Laser attacks, namely R.L.Burst, spread immense heat aura around them, vaporizing body layers of even stat stronger opponents fighting Frogman (Dio’s stats are far lower than frogman’s), and frogman can wield a passive red laser layer around himself. Frogmen’s supercells are nearly immune to transmutation (Their supercells are immune to mutation. As long their brain/thinking works, they can keep transmuting back with supercell properties) so trying to turn him into a blob or whatever would be largely fruitless.

Well.

Does bro res life-force absorption, or freezing, or 3 diff mind hax options (someone mentioned hypnosis, but that's the bad one), or the random weird biomanip dio has.

Life force in particular, that's bad, kind of skips the need to even kill, bypasses regen because life force, and if Dio so chooses, can end with them becoming a zombie.

Ok then bro just gets manhandled by a dude he can't even attack back.

Yes.

Frogman can also rewind these changes through time and the clones he made can damage transferal them back (considering they so this even to reality warping, shouldn’t be a problem). If Dio actually does manage to kill the main body, frogman’s consciousness would go into one of the clones as backup, further combined with time rewind and supreme thinking speeds/26,000 years of experience in advanced fighting strategy and skill, he’d be able to plan around The World and use the Red Saber to destroy Dio. Becoming a zombie shouldn’t be much of a problem either considering his really high power biological resistances and mind resistances, plus again the backup clones, rewind, and all that.

Dio is also Class M at best so I have no idea where the manhandling would come from, it should be close. In tight situations Frogmen with willpower can also use the strengths of their future selves to vastly increase in LS, so they difference would quickly become moot if Frogman is so threatened

 

[SSB64]

• Power Nullification (Up to Low-High. Hecate's Golden Mech possesses 'Golden Fire Lasers' which are based on her research into the Suppression Mode of Abliter and the data Aiden gained from his fight with Albion. The lasers are able to nullify stronger powers as well simply on contact with them combining its regular properties with vibration and such to blow the matter apart. Hecate calls them her 'ultimate revenge' on anyone who reminds her of the ones who sent her to the institution, destroying at a sub-atomic level.)

I doubt clover survives these

.....Man. I really need to bring that out this early, huh?

.....Here we go.

Okay. So during the past two Rounds, Clover has only ever needed the base version of their revival powers in order to win these matches (Aka, the one he has during most of the game, regardless of Route). However, the one he gets at Level 20 is akin to Giorno's Stand getting hit by a Stand Arrow. IE, their ability gets jacked to Uber levels of "What the heck?" in terms of how broken it is.

What do I mean? Well, let's set a hypothetical. Hecate has Clover trapped in a sort of corner, and Hecate uses her Golden Fire Lasers to try to finish the job. The result is that the attack will always miss, because Hecate never fired her Golden Lasers in the first place (24:25)

At Level 20, Clover basically gets dominion over the entire timeline. IE, unless Hecate's attacks are Acausal, they won't bypass this.

Furthermore, I just skimmed through Hecate's arsenal, and hilariously, despite all of Hecate's absurd powers, even if it made it through this near GER level Hax, none of it actually bypasses Clover's defense. Her lasers only negate Low-High Regen at best. Meanwhile, Clover possesses Mid-Godly Regeneration thanks to their timeline powers on account of them being able to regenerate back at the nearest SAVE point, which is either at the beginning of the fight, or one which Clover can make themself (As I said. Control over the timestream, so even the Golden Bubbles wouldn't work.)

Add in their Soul Cannon which Hecate has no resistances to, and a "possible" argument for Clover being able to perceive things so quickly that they come to a stop compared to everyone, and a result, even though it would take, in our perception, millions of years to happen, Clover would, inch by inch, break through Hecate's defenses and land a killing blow before Hecate could permanently put Clover down.

 

[Rayfire]

What do I mean? Well, let's set a hypothetical. Hecate has Clover trapped in a sort of corner, and Hecate uses her Golden Fire Lasers to try to finish the job. The result is that the attack willl always miss, because Hecate never fired her Golden Lasers in the first place (24:25)

Is there any way that the duo or anyone in this tournament can bypass this? It seems very... busted for this tourney, and it kind of seems like clover can never be hit by anyone this way by spamming LOAD here like i spam forward smashes in super smash bros. If not, is this just something he does when there's no other option?

 

[VeneficaAuthor]

Is there any way that the duo or anyone in this tournament can bypass this? It seems very... busted for this tourney, and it kind of seems like clover can never be hit by anyone this way by spamming LOAD here like i spam forward smashes in super smash bros. If not, is this just something he does when there's no other option?

Even if it is a last possible option the fact that it exists at all and has not been pointed out until this point in the tourney (whereas if it was pointed out before the tourney beginning clover wouldn’t have been allowed to enter) is frankly a bit absurd

 

[SSB64]

Is there any way that the duo or anyone in this tournament can bypass this? It seems very... busted for this tourney

Considering that Clover is the second physically weakest character here only behind DIO, who wouldn't have made it very far without Clover, I'd say it was basically needed to get them this far. If Clover has no other choice, they'll resort to something like this (They didn't do it against Asgore because they weren't pressed into doing so.) Hecate, meanwhile, is powerful and broken enough to where Clover would be forced on the backfoot and be forced to use this trick in order to find a possible timeline to win in because otherwise, this fight would be an absolute stomp in Frogate's favor.

Finally, in the context of Undertale Yellow, Clover does this to Flowey because they are beyond ticked off by him getting in the way throughout the whole game. So yeah. This is basically Clover's last resort.

Finally, I don't entirely think it's an invincible ability. It isn't passive like GER. Clover needs to consciously activate it in order to use it, so enough pressure could, in theory, bypass this.

And furthermore, I should ask. Can anyone in this tournament even hope to beat Hecate? Judging by what I've heard from Venefica, likely not. Hecate too, seems busted to the point where it's stupid.