[R1M2] 1st Generals of Grove Tournament - Yarrow vs. Clover (0-0-0)

[Eden_Warlock99]

Could Yarrow use his plants to carry him out of range? It’d make sense if he tried getting distance where Clover can’t follow atop buildings to counteract the physicals. And he would still be able to use the plants on the ground.

There isn’t anything stopping him from gaining that distance though. Plus yarrow’s extrasensory perception, again, can let him know if clover is trying to intercept him while doing this.

He'd have to go pretty far. Clover's Justice Beam can cover at least 31.58 meters in an instant. Plus, he'd have to do that under the constant pressure Clover is gonna put on him, with Clover not only being faster than Yarrow but also being powerful enough to just power through any obstacle Yarrow puts on their way.

Not to mention, Yarrow needs to first realize that he's severely outmatched to do this, a.k.a. take Clover's onslaught, which probably won't end well for him.

The LS advantage is also questionable as yarrow is able to hold down nectrus consistently, who could hoist up multiple city buildings which is definitely a fair degree above Class M as well, so yarrow is the bare minimum comparable to him So by your current logic, yarrow should be at least a few times above baseline Class M which means the gap is closed significantly.

It doesn't have a calc, you can't really put it any more than baseline.
Following that logic, I can also say that since Dunebud (A fodder monster enemy) is where Clover's Class M originates from, that Clover should be x10 its value lol

I still feel a bit iffy about being significantly into 8-B, considering it’s a “possibly” rating (although he is meant to be this tier here obvs) and the highest calc I can actually find for UTY is High 8-C. The scaling chain makes sense but the value is still unquantifiable at the end of the day, and again, clover is still listed as baseline here. You’ve said this yourself.

The only reason it's a possibly is because the Dunebud feat is dubiously canon, not because Clover downscales from 8-B or whatever.
In fact, if you ignore the canonicity issue, Clover's rating would be "At least 8-B, likely higher" It's already as such on their profile.

Maybe, but the invincibility and speed amp is so short that even when this guy was spamming it, it was hardly useful in dodging flowey’s attacks.

The Dash speed amp still roughly x2.96 Clover's speed, and x3.69 it when stacked with any of the other speed amps. It should make catching up to Yarrow a breeze and the fact it allows Clover to virtually phase through attacks is sorta a gamechanger against the guy who's main defense is putting obstacles in the way.

Can clover spam justice beam though? Even then he can only make one of them, and yarrow can control multiple giant plants at a time. All this will do is delay the inevitable.

It only has 2 seconds of charge time so it'd say it's pretty spam-able, here's an example.
Plus, you have to realize every time Clover uses it, every plant in front of Clover up to 32 meters is going to be virtually erased.

 

[SSB64]

Clover’s arguments for vastly upscaling seem high in contention

That's up in the air atm. We have to wait for ExSenna's decision. Either way, I've already explained why Clover beats Yarrow, and why Yarrow's tactics wouldn't work. What tactic in particular do you think what's Clover?

especially Class M which is just a possibly rating.

Clover, while without a physical body, weakened, and at a lower Level, was able to break out of Flowey's grasp, the same Flowey could perform that Class M feat, and Vengeance Route Clover even gets Flowey nervous enough to listen to them to make it consistent.

He has plenty of nature to work with around him so he can basically attack clover omnidirectionally,

Where exactly is this fight taking place? An empty void? A city? Either of those would be detrimental to Yarrow since nature isn't around. He'd have to expend a lot of stamina in either location to even make it happen. And Ike I said, Clover starting 7 meters away, combined with Clover being used to close quarters combat while Yarrow relies on high AOE, and Clover not hesitating to kill here means that Clover would just shoot Yarrow, either with his gun or his SOUL Cannon, the latter of which dooming Yarrow. Even a single SOUL bullet would be dangerous. Even without calc staking, Clover blatantly negs an attack that would be at Yarrow's level of AP (Asgore's trident.) And even if Clover took damage overtime, Clover would heal far too quickly, whether through the Silver Scarf + Glass Ammo, his healing items, or his own healing technique. Yarrow has none of these, and Yarrow can only keep up the pressure for so long before running out of gas. And again, that's if Clover doesn't immediately shoot him with Durability Negation SOUL attacks. And as for the Omnidirectional attacks, those are, again, nothing new for Clover. Zenith Martlet and Flowey alone have several of these, the latter of which, may I remind you, Clover stalemated while in a heavily weakened state. And Flowey not only uses plants, but also has a massive arsenal of other attacks.

Yarrow has basically no way to put Clover down, especially since Yarrow's only schtick is something Clover has seen before, but less versatile. Clover's versatility and experience really hurt Yarrow here.

Can clover spam justice beam though? Even then he can only make one of them, and yarrow can control multiple giant plants at a time. All this will do is delay the inevitable.

He can spam Justice Bullet (Which would also get to 12 Tons by your logic of upscaling being calc stacking, which would once again only making it worse for Yarrow since the charge time no longer matters to kill Yarrow.)

Not to mention, Yarrow's Class M scaling is also pretty vague. It comes from Yarrow being comparable to Lilac and holding down Nectrus, both of whom can lift buildings. What kind of buildings? How big or heavy were they? Beats me. There's no scans or calcs for this on either of their profiles. All I've got is that Yarrow is solidly Unknown in strength with him possibly being higher. Not to mention that even then, Yarrow would vaguely downscale from Nectrus seeing as the giant bee was able to pretty easily break out of his grasp. By giving this Class M LS to Yarrow, you have to do the same for Clover, especially since Clover has more evidence for their Class M.

None of his infinite heals actually heal him to full health, and this is also a turn spent on healing rather than stopping yarrow’s plants or yarrow himself.

It's also a turn spent on Yarrow's stamina. Yarrow using his full power constantly to keep Clover away is certainly going to eat away at his longevity pretty badly, especially if he has to throw defensive measures in there on top of that. Not to mention, how long does Yarrow need to charge for his AOE? If it's anything slower than near instantly, Yarrow is likely doomed.

ut the invincibility and speed amp is so short that even when this guy was spamming it, it was hardly useful in dodging flowey’s attacks.

It's pretty disingenuous when, again, this is a Clover without their physical body and at a lower Level. Once he did get his body back during the chase sequences, he was able to dodge Flowey's vine spam coming from underground near instantly whilst in tight corridors (He did this without the SOUL Dash.)

 

[SSB64]

Could Yarrow use his plants to carry him out of range? It’d make sense if he tried getting distance where Clover can’t follow atop buildings to counteract the physicals. And he would still be able to use the plants on the ground.

Is this fight taking place in a populated city?

 

[SSB64]

Not to mention, Yarrow needs to first realize that he's severely outmatched to do this, a.k.a. take Clover's onslaught, which probably won't end well for him.

True, especially since, as mentioned before, Yarrow himself has no resistance to Soul attacks.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Is this fight taking place in a populated city?

SBA means Central Park so yeah

 

[SSB64]

SBA means Central Park so yeah

So it would be populated, yes? Like, they can each use the environment and all that? Cars they find (Or in the case of villains, hostages?)

 

[MintyBoi1]

So it would be populated, yes? Like, they can each use the environment and all that? Cars they find (Or in the case of villains, hostages?)

I’d assume there’s cars and stuff. Not sure about people since that’d probably complicate fights with heroes in them.

 

[SSB64]

I’d assume there’s cars and stuff. Not sure about people since that’d probably complicate fights with heroes in them.

Does it say that NYC is abandoned/evacuated under SBA?

 

[MintyBoi1]

Does it say that NYC is abandoned/evacuated under SBA?

Location: Central Park, New York City. The location can be left during the course of battle. If extreme advantages are generated via this location to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

I think hostages interfering with Yarrow’s fight as a hero would be a lopsided advantage.

 

[SSB64]

Location: Central Park, New York City. The location can be left during the course of battle. If extreme advantages are generated via this location to one side, a balanced alternative should be discussed in the thread.

I think hostages interfering with Yarrow’s fight as a hero would be a lopsided advantage.

TBF, Clover would also have to be cautious not to kill any humans as it goes against their sense of Justice.

 

[MintyBoi1]

TBF, Clover would also have to be cautious not to kill any humans as it goes against their sense of Justice.

I see, still I don’t think it’s assumed people are there. Other threads with SBA haven’t so ExSENNA would have to establish that.

 

[SSB64]

I see, still I don’t think it’s assumed people are there. Other threads with SBA haven’t so ExSENNA would have to establish that.

Ah.

Anyways, I've already made all of my points as to why Clover carries almost every advantage in this fight over Yarrow. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Yarrow has AOE and Durability as his only major advantages, and even the former is dubious given both the range of the SOUL cannon and the starting distance of the fight with the latter being mostly null thanks to Clover's access to Durability Negation.

Clover is stronger, faster, more agile with their impressive Danmaku dodging, more versatile with having multiple stat amps and healing options, has Durability Negation, has higher LS, has superior Stamina (Clover's is at Superhuman against Yarrow's being High), and has better experience in terms of fighting by themself and experience fighting against plant users.

 

[ExSENNA]

I also think Clover overall has the upper hand here

 

[MintyBoi1]

I asked Venefica (Yarrow’s creator) and he said Yarrow “could ride plants if he needed to or propel himself by using them to push off the ground, catch himself from falling/after propelling with plants, wield large ground chunks as weapons, etc”. I think my earlier mentioned strategy of outranging Clover by going to the rooftops and overwhelming with all the plants would give Yarrow the leg up to put things in his favor even if his stats aren’t as impressive.

 

[MintyBoi1]

Ah.

Anyways, I've already made all of my points as to why Clover carries almost every advantage in this fight over Yarrow. I'm not sure what else there is to talk about.

Yarrow has AOE and Durability as his only major advantages, and even the former is dubious given both the range of the SOUL cannon and the starting distance of the fight with the latter being mostly null thanks to Clover's access to Durability Negation.

Clover is stronger, faster, more agile with their impressive Danmaku dodging, more versatile with having multiple stat amps and healing options, has Durability Negation, has higher LS, has superior Stamina (Clover's is at Superhuman against Yarrow's being High), and has better experience in terms of fighting by themself and experience fighting against plant users.

I still think Clover’s vast upscaling is iffy for the previously mentioned reasons like how other verses handle one shots. Agility is also countered by Yarrow completely controlling the environment around them since Central Park is full of plant life and being able to use them for travel. Yarrow’s stamina rating isn’t very clear, but I’d assume he’d be Superhuman using proper terms since all pro heroes in OPM show great endurance when taking on monsters. And better experience also seems dubious because of Yarrow’s status as a hero constantly saving lives whereas from what I know Clover has less than a year in the underground before the game is over.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I feel like the outranging strategy is null and void when you consider:

1. I don't believe Yarrow tends to start with it in normal circumstances, so he'll only resort to it after already taking some hefty damage from Clover
2. Yarrow lacks the AP necessary to chip away at Clover's health, as Clover's Passive/Active Healing surpasses what Yarrow can output
3. Yarrow has lower Stamina than Clover, so all this strategy will accomplish is stall the inevitable​

I still think Clover’s vast upscaling is iffy for the previously mentioned reasons like how other verses handle one shots.

You mentioned one verse (SU) with a pretty, let's say dubious, scaling chain and one that barely gets any matches in the first place, and the example I used (Senator Armstrong) has a plethora of different matches and supposedly has his one-shot scaling logic backed up by staff, sooooooooo

 

[Rayfire]

1. I don't believe Yarrow tends to start with it in normal circumstances, so he'll only resort to it after already taking some hefty damage from Clover

I mean, what else would yarrow use? Bare hands? plus when you're up against someone with a gun, keeping your distance is your best bet for survival. I think yarrow knows this.

There is also the fact that venefica (The OG creator) supports this idea. We've talked on discord about this in a gc.

He could ride plants if he needed to or propel himself by using them to push off the ground, catch himself from falling/after propelling with plants, wield large ground chunks as weapons, etc

2. Yarrow lacks the AP necessary to chip away at Clover's health, as Clover's Passive/Active Healing surpasses what Yarrow can output

This is kind of subjective in how upscaling will work (Which i don't agree with, you literally can't upscale with oneshots in canon because it's generally an unquantifiable value lol) but you've already said they are equal in ap before, and again this is what he was listed as to begin with. I think this is more than enough to damage clover.

We, however, treat UTY and UT as separate continuities and as such don't really allow cross scaling between the two, at least at the moment.
So Clover is just 12 Tons. Also UT is losing its 8-B rating as we speak lol

Clover needs his turn in order to heal though. He can't just do it mid-dodging. Clover is going to have trouble avoiding the kind of AoE yarrow has with his plants, nevermind the fact he can attack omnidirectionally because of the environment. If Clover gets wombo-comboed by THIS when it's not his turn then in the best case scenario this will only delay the inevitable.

• Frenzy Whips: Yarrow casts multiple large plants forward which whip his target over and over again. Usually, he has his plants surround his enemy before using it.

I believe i've already discussed with SSB that clover kind of relies on his SAVE & LOAD to adapt to complex attacks, which he doesn't have. It's something they rely on because it's something they canonically use, and it's already made clear that clover dies a lot of the time against unfamiliar enemies during flowey's flashback. There are timelines where he doesn't need to use this ability but that's only a few out of countless timelines. It may as well be irrelevant.

3. Yarrow has lower Stamina than Clover, so all this strategy will accomplish is stall the inevitable

Superhuman Stamina is more than enough to accomplish the task at hand. Nuf said. Yarrow being a hero and having "High" stamina generally indicates that, at bare minimum, he's used to fighting at full capacity.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, what else would yarrow use? Bare hands? plus when you're up against someone with a gun, keeping your distance is your best bet for survival. I think yarrow knows this.

I dunno where you got the idea that I said that Yarrow won't use their plants? I just said it was highly doubtful that Yarrow'd see a kid with a gun and immediately think that he needs to get a hundred or so meters away from them. Especially since, you were literally arguing that Yarrow would probably just try to block the shots with his plants.

As for actually damaging yarrow, not only should he be able to take a few hits from clover due to being, y'know, a hero, and having equal AP, but it will be harder for him to land shots than usual, as he hasn't dealt with opponents that have Extrasensory Perception before. I think yarrow is also smart enough to use his plants to block any attacks too, especially if he's up against a fricking kid with a gun Especially since he's seen on his picture to have some plants by his side at all times.

This also fails to take into account the very fast, steaming hot beam of Justice Clover can just unleash whenever, the same one Yarrow has no way of anticipating.

There is also the fact that venefica (The OG creator) supports this idea. We've talked on discord about this in a gc.

"Could," "If he needed to," this really only enforces the non-disputed fact that Yarrow is able to run away and get some distance, if he decides to do so.
It says nothing about why Yarrow would even attempt this against Clover, or that it's one of his common starting moves.

This is kind of subjective in how upscaling will work (Which i don't agree with, you literally can't upscale with oneshots in canon because it's generally an unquantifiable value lol) but you've already said they are equal in ap before, and again this is what he was listed as to begin with. I think this is more than enough to damage clover.

I never said it wasn't unquantifiable, it being unquantifiable doesn't mean it can't be reasoned out or that it absolutely has zero effect.
Treating Clover as just 12 Tons here is akin to saying that characters that get one-shot by characters that Clover already one-shots are equal to them.

I really don't think it's even that outlandish. One-shot gaps are already treated on-site as massive upscales, they're literally one of the only upscaling methods that can get someone to a higher Tier when they're around that value. And sorry for sounding like a broken record, but the one-shot upscaling idea is supported by staff.

Clover needs his turn in order to heal though. He can't just do it mid-dodging. Clover is going to have trouble avoiding the kind of AoE yarrow has with his plants, nevermind the fact he can attack omnidirectionally. If Clover gets wombo-comboed by THIS then in the best case scenario this will only delay the inevitable.

• Frenzy Whips: Yarrow casts multiple large plants forward which whip his target over and over again. Usually, he has his plants surround his enemy before using it.

Turns sorta aren't accepted as an actual in-canon thing that exists in the UT world, a.k.a. they're just gameplay limitations, so Clover can heal as often as they attack in real time.
And to repeat what SSB said, this wouldn't be the first time Clover went up against Omnidirectional attacks, and Dash, with its speed amp and invulnerability, is sorta the perfect counter to this style of attack. Plus, Clover can just burn through them, again they have a giant Justice Beam that goes up to 31 meters and can be spammed.

I believe i've already discussed with SSB that clover kind of relies on his SAVE & LOAD to adapt to complex attacks, which he doesn't have. It's something they rely on because it's something they canonically use, and it's already made clear that clover dies a lot of the time against unfamiliar enemies during flowey's flashback. There are timelines where he doesn't need to use this ability but that's only a few out of countless timelines. It may as well be irrelevant.

I do believe we go with the Peak form of game characters, that's why they usually always have literally every item in the game. We also tend to use all the perfect and most impressive showings for characters from choice based games even when other choices aren't necessary a loss (Connor from Detroit Become Human is a big example).

Superhuman Stamina is more than enough to accomplish the task at hand. Nuf said. Yarrow being a hero and having "High" stamina generally indicates that, at bare minimum, he's used to fighting at full capacity.

One of them has showings for this Superhuman Stamina and the other doesn't. And Yarrow again will have to exert more stamina since they're at a stat disadvantage here.
This matters because the argument is to stall out Clover and win through that, you can't really do so when you're the one with the lower stamina.

 

[SSB64]

Yarrow’s stamina rating isn’t very clear, but I’d assume he’d be Superhuman using proper terms since all pro heroes in OPM show great endurance when taking on monsters. And better experience also seems dubious because of Yarrow’s status as a hero constantly saving lives whereas from what I know Clover has less than a year in the underground before the game is over.

Yarrow's profile says it's High, not Superhuman like Clover's. And as for Experience, Yarrow is implied to do Hero work in a duo or team thanks to the existence of Lilac who on his profile, is someone he has met early on.

This is kind of subjective in how upscaling will work (Which i don't agree with, you literally can't upscale with oneshots in canon because it's generally an unquantifiable value lol) but you've already said they are equal in ap before, and again this is what he was listed as to begin with. I think this is more than enough to damage clover.

Again. Asgore, who at worst, is 12 Tons, couldn't damage Clover, and got one shot. Yarrow wouldn't be able to damage Clover with 12 Ton attacks, and any minor damage they would take, even if Yarrow could, would be healed passively by either the Silver Scarf, or whenever Clover uses the Glass Shards, not to mention that those are things he can use that don't require a turn to heal where he's not attacking.

I do believe we go with the Peak form of game characters, that's why they usually always have literally every item in the game. We also tend to use all the perfect and most impressive showings for characters from choice based games even when other choices aren't necessary a loss (Connor from Detroit Become Human is a big example).

Don't forget that Clover has the Dimensional Satchel, meaning that they can have their whole arsenal on standby if they need something (It's hard to use it in the heat of battle seeing as it can't be used when in fight in-game, but if Clover gets an opening to rest, they could very well pull something out of it.)

 

[Rayfire]

Yarrow's profile says it's High, not Superhuman like Clover's. And as for Experience, Yarrow is implied to do Hero work in a duo or team thanks to the existence of Lilac who on his profile, is someone he has met early on.

The quote from vene are things that yarrow can do in a 1v1, plus vene has mentioned that he's fought lilac one on one before in the gc too, so this isn't entirely new to yarrow.

Again. Asgore, who at worst, is 12 Tons, couldn't damage Clover, and got one shot. Yarrow wouldn't be able to damage Clover with 12 Ton attacks, and any minor damage they would take, even if Yarrow could, would be healed passively by either the Silver Scarf, or whenever Clover uses the Glass Shards, not to mention that those are things he can use that don't require a turn to heal where he's not attacking.

How do i know asgore is 8-B if he doesn't have a profile nor does UTY scale to canon undertale? The 8-B for clover is only a 'possibly' to begin with too. That doesn't sound like someone who can kill another 8-B easily at all lol

You've also said yourself on the tourney thread that it is likely that yarrow can restrain clover if he's caught in the vines, Which is further backed up when we consider that yarrow can consistently hold down other massively superior Class M's like nectrus. (I've already mentioned this but it should be re-iterated) so any ap advantage he has wouldn't matter if yarrow can at bare minimum slow him down this way.

Save & Load was the main reason why it was taken out. Plus, Clover has specifically been restrained by vines (So Yarrow of all people could keep Clover in place if he gets the chance).

There wasn't even any talk about the sudden 8-B upscaling in the original thread i could find, Which is why i again question it's legitimacy here when clover has already been listed as baseline 8-B here. Im not sure if senna even knows about it yet. If there was all this upscaling for clover, why wasn't it brought up, and why is he still only 'possibly' 8-B if the upscaling thing is legitimate?

but the one-shot upscaling idea is supported by staff.

This message doesn't even come from a staff member themselves lol

And it also seems to be kinda disputed in that thread because, again, The one-shot page makes it clear you can't really upscale with it. And this is something that was made by the mods to begin with lol. In other words, one-shotting asgore alone isn't enough evidence to say clover is much higher into 8-B, Especially when it was already listed as a "Possibly" rating, so the literal people scaling it aren't even fully confident of it dude...

I dunno where you got the idea that I said that Yarrow won't use their plants? I just said it was highly doubtful that Yarrow'd see a kid with a gun and immediately think that he needs to get a hundred or so meters away from them. Especially since, you were literally arguing that Yarrow would probably just try to block the shots with his plants.

I mean, in that situation, you'd want to get distance too, no? I did mention blocking but that's just another option for defense he has while he does this. I never said he was LIMITED to blocking.

One of them has showings for this Superhuman Stamina and the other doesn't. And Yarrow again will have to exert more stamina since they're at a stat disadvantage here.
This matters because the argument is to stall out Clover and win through that, you can't really do so when you're the one with the lower stamina.

This isn't a battle of attrition lol, i doubt this will last for like hours or something at the moment where stamina would really matter. I doubt he needs to exert himself THAT much when he has so many plants, and therefore resources, to work with anyway. I never brought up tiring out clover in this thread

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'll just address the main argument.

The 8-B for clover is only a 'possibly' to begin with too. That doesn't sound like someone who can kill another 8-B easily at all lol

I've said this before, but the "possibly" is not due to downscaling or whatever, it's a canonicity issue.
If you're so sure of that not being the case, please do explain to me how Clover is "possibly at least 8-B, likely higher"

And yes, we do know that UTY Asgore is 8-B, the profile literally tells us that Asgore is significantly more powerful than Zenith Martlet, and in the same sentence tells us said Zenith Martlet can tank attacks from LV19 Clover, you know, the "At least 8-B" one?

It is likely that yarrow can restrain clover if he's caught in the vines

He cannot. Nectrus doesn't have a calc for their Class M as far as I'm aware, they cannot be above baseline.
In fact, looking into it, Clover isn't even x5 Yarrow's LS value, but x860 it. So that argument's in the water.
And again, Clover's SOUL moves independently from their body, so restraining Clover does virtually nothing.

I will also note that SSB isn't the arbiter of Clover's stats, especially when the actual profile says otherwise.

The one-shot page makes it clear you can't really upscale with it.

Nowhere does it state that. In fact, it says the opposite "In order for a one-shot to happen, Fighter A's attack must have an Attack Potency that's quite above Fighter B's Durability." It merely disallows the use of the x7.5 multiplier outside of versus threads, that's it.

Yarrow won't need stamina for the outrange strategy to work.

When you're facing someone who's constantly healing, constantly plowing through tens of meters of your attacks in an instant, and one who at best you're just able to inflict chip damage on, stamina definitely matters.