Quick Re:Zero Downgrade

[Phoenks]

It has come to my attention that much of the verse is currently being inflated off the base of this cloud calculation.

I have a couple of problems with this calculation.

The passage states that the clouds were "cleaved in twain right down the middle." It makes absolutely no mention of the clouds being moved away from the force of the cut. Just that it split them down the middle. This is a feat of cloud destruction (making a straight line down the clouds) rather than physically moving clouds apart.

The calculation also makes multiple assumptions to fill in the largely missing context. For one, it assumes a random distance of "5% of cloud diameter" which is not backed up by anything. The clouds aren't said to even be moving. For two, it assumes that the speed of this already theoretical movement is instantaneous off the basis that the attack itself is nigh-instantaneous. That doesn't make much sense either. Just because the attack itself was fast doesn't mean the clouds were parted by "1000 meters" in one second. Genuinely don't know why that is accepted.

And before you point to this calculation as a replacement. This is another cloud feat that is also majorly wrong. The biggest issue is that it assumes the feat is done in one strike when the passage makes it clear it was done across multiple:

"Continuous were the sounds of blows clashing, the rain of destruction, the impacts which bid tears from the sky above, as dark clouds were torn asunder, giving birth to light."

Multiple, continuous blows. Not just one. Moreover, this calculation also uses KE when there is similarly not enough context to make any assumptions regarding speed and distance. So refer to the above.

EDIT: I would also just like to point out that the guy who performed the feat, "Rowan Segmunt," was literally killed by Todd Fang's explosion, which barely did anything to the building it occurred in. For some reason no one ever mentions these anti-feats. The mid-tier characters in Re: Zero are not depicted at anywhere near this level of power.

---

That's all. Just don't use either of these calculations for the verse. They don't make sense.

This would downgrade everyone who currently scales to 7-A in Re: Zero to whatever the next valid calculation is.

EDIT:

A more valid re-work of the calculation has been done and accepted at 8-A. So all relevant characters can be updated to that value.

Votes​

Agree: @Dalesean027, @Celestial_Pegasus

 

[Zabazab]

The passage states that the clouds were "cleaved in twain right down the middle." It makes absolutely no mention of the clouds being moved away from the force of the cut. Just that it split them down the middle. This is a feat of cloud destruction (making a straight line down the clouds) rather than physically moving clouds apart.

It was done with the force of a sword swing rising into the sky. I don't see how the force of a swing would destroy and vaporize clouds rather than push them out of the way. Cleaving means to split something apart.

We also have every other instance of Cloud-Cutting being described:

Spoiler: Cloud-Cutting

“――Cloud-cutting.” Just before that, a remarkable change flashed into Al’s vision.

It was behind the flame curtain, in the direction Cecilus surmised the sniper to be, in the sky where Al still could not see the enemy; there was an unusual change in his vision.

Simply put, the clouds had been severed.

The thick black clouds that covered the sky of the Undead Capital of Lupugana had been cut open, unexpectedly. The cumulus clouds received not one, but two to three cuts in succession.

It was as if they were chasing an invisible enemy in the sky―― No, not as if.

The slashes were chasing the enemy, their aftermath the tears through the black clouds. —Arc 8, Chapter 36, "Undead Capital of Lupugana"

Utilizing the cloud-cutting technique he released a strike to sever the eruption of smoke, he was then able to lay eyes on the being present beyond it, on the culprit that had produced the impact. —Arc 8, Chapter 38, "Rowan Segmunt"

――Cecilus Segmunt had once told Arakiya something, in the past.

He had done so during a battle to the death between the First and the Second, an event regarded as commonplace in the Imperial Capital.

In the midst of a chat between Arakiya and Cecilus, who were the defeated and the victor respectively, a conversation taking place in a vast field reduced to a scorched plot, the latter had sliced open the clouds with his katana, a technique he had purported as being nothing but something for show.

In reality, Cecilus had thought it held no utility other than for surprising people; having witnessed it first-hand, Arakiya too evaluated that as a skill devoid of any useful purpose whatsoever.

That, was the divine miracle of empty sky that Rowan Segmunt had spent his lifetime devising―― for those who were transcendent monsters, it was worthy of naught more than being dubbed a flashy performance. —Arc 8, Chapter 43, "To Each Their Long-Cherished Desires"

“It’s simply troublesome! Scatter!” That instant, the brandish of the Dream Sword, unsheathed at lightning speed, unleashed a stroke of cloud-cutting, bisecting the fireball in the sky above.

The bundle of flames basked in the glint of the slash and released firepower capable of turning the surface into a sea of flame out into the sky, coating it once more in the destructive hue of red after it had temporarily returned to its usual color. —Arc 8, Chapter 65, "Starfall Upon the Imperial Capital"

Which describes clouds as being severed, torn through, sliced open, and bisected. Not destroyed/vaporized.

For one, it assumes a random distance of "5% of cloud diameter" which is not backed up by anything.

This is because it's a visible gash formed in the clouds, 5% was taken as large enough that it's still visible from the ground without overinflating the feat. It was taken as a reasonable then that wasn't a stretch, particularly compared to the previous version of a full-sky dispersal, which it isn't described as.

For two, it assumes that the speed of this already theoretical movement is instantaneous off the basis that the attack itself is nigh-instantaneous.

It doesn't use instantaneous movement because the sword moved faster than sound. It uses one second for the clouds to part because the feat is fast. It's a fairly immediate cause and effect. This is also made clear in other cloud-cutting quotes above, particularly the chapter 36 one.

Just because the attack itself was fast doesn't mean the clouds were parted by "1000 meters" in one second. Genuinely don't know why that is accepted.

Because it was a very quick moment. This does not read as them sitting and watching the clouds take their time to move apart. It's a technique that's meant to shock people.

Carping at the weak objection, Cecilus unsheathed the katana on his waist as he sat.

In a flash of lightning that left even the sound behind, the force from the drawn blade rose into the sky, and the thick clouds above the pair of them were cleaved in twain right down the middle.

Arakiya: [──Slicing clouds.]

Cecilus: [Well, it's a bit of a startling feat, isn't it? But if I had said that I couldn't reach the clouds or whatever, I wouldn't have been able to do it ever!] —Tanpenshuu 7, Sword Identity

I gather that your primary issue with it is that it makes assumptions. But this is just how things go for text-only feats, especially for stories that are unlikely to receive visual adaptations any time soon, and these assumptions are mostly sourced from the wiki itself (i.e the 20km horizon).

And before you point to this calculation as a replacement. This is another cloud feat that is also majorly wrong. The biggest issue is that it assumes the feat is done in one strike when the passage makes it clear it was done across multiple:

"Continuous were the sounds of blows clashing, the rain of destruction, the impacts which bid tears from the sky above, as dark clouds were torn asunder, giving birth to light."

Multiple, continuous blows. Not just one. Moreover, this calculation also uses KE when there is similarly not enough context to make any assumptions regarding speed and distance. So refer to the above.

This one is bad not only because it was multiple attacks from two characters, it also uses the wrong height and thickness for the clouds. It should be removed.

 

[Lilybitdun]

Cleaving feats usually mean both halves are moved the distance of the cut rather than the cut destroying a part of the object (I was in the middle of typing this when posted the cloud cutting examples). I agree with not using either tho due to the arbitrary 5% of cloud diameter assumption, there should be a way to directly measure the size necessary for the cut to be visible from the ground.

 

[Phoenks]

It was done with the force of a sword swing rising into the sky. I don't see how the force of a swing would destroy and vaporize clouds rather than push them out of the way. Cleaving means to split something apart.

It's on you to prove that the clouds actually moved.

You're making an assumption without evidence. Cleaving the clouds it two just sounds like it destroy a part of the clouds (making a line across them), not causing the cloud to move away from the part.

The text does not support your interpretation. There's no context.

This is because it's a visible gash formed in the clouds, 5% was taken as large enough that it's still visible from the ground without overinflating the feat. It was taken as a reasonable then that wasn't a stretch, particularly compared to the previous version of a full-sky dispersal, which it isn't described as.

There's nothing reasonable about it.

Even your calculator admitted it is based on nothing.

It doesn't use instantaneous movement because the sword moved faster than sound. It uses one second for the clouds to part because the feat is fast. It's a fairly immediate cause and effect. This is also made clear in other cloud-cutting quotes above, particularly the chapter 36 one.

Wrong again.

It explicitly uses 1 second because of the attack speed, not the parting itself.

The original calculation this one is based on used 5 seconds as a more reasonable assumption for a quick feat without context.

Because it was a very quick moment. This does not read as them sitting and watching the clouds take their time to move apart. It's a technique that's meant to shock people.

Very quick =/= 1 second / instantaneous movement for your theoretical cloud feat.

I gather that your primary issue with it is that it makes assumptions. But this is just how things go for text-only feats, especially for stories that are unlikely to receive visual adaptations any time soon, and these assumptions are mostly sourced from the wiki itself (i.e the 20km horizon).

It shouldn't be. Making assumptions the text doesn't leads to inaccuracies in scaling and calculating.

Not to mention, the characters who scale to this aren't depicted to be anywhere near this strong. You know that. Stop pretending.


EDIT:

We also have every other instance of Cloud-Cutting being described:
Which describes clouds as being severed, torn through, sliced open, and bisected. Not destroyed/vaporized.

None of this suggests cloud movement either, so I think it's irrelevant to the discussion. "severing, tearing, slicing" implies cutting through the clouds. Like leaving a line of destruction through them. Not moving both halves of the clouds apart from one another.

 

[Zabazab]

You're making an assumption without evidence. Cleaving the clouds it two just sounds like it destroy a part of the clouds (making a line across them), not causing the cloud to move away from the part.

I simply don't agree. I feel both the scan in the feat and the scans I've posted support the clouds moving. Hence cleaved, sliced, torn through, bisected. Not destroyed. The force of a slash moving through them, splitting them.

There's nothing reasonable about it.

Even your calculator admitted it is based on nothing.

Yes, it was an assumption that was prefaced as such and clarified that it could be changed at request if something else is seen as more reasonable.

There's just one last thing I need to establish, and that's the split width. Dividing the split width by the timeframe'll get speed which'll be used for KE. I couldn't come up with a reliable method for finding that out so I think just assuming a fraction of the diameter - 5% or so, I'm happy to change it - is what I'll do here.

Wrong again.

It explicitly uses 1 second because of the attack speed, not the parting itself.

I disagreed with 1 second being an instantaneous movement, if it used the attack speed for the split it'd be around 0.003 seconds. Again, further scans support the immediacy in response between slash and sever.

The original calculation this one is based on used 5 seconds as a more reasonable assumption for a quick feat without context.

That one was also a full-sky split, a movement which is 20x larger

It shouldn't be. Making assumptions the text doesn't leads to inaccuracies in scaling and calculating.

Well it is. Many feats use reasonable assumptions to fill in blind spots, such as the very values for cloud thickness, it's the way it is. I don't feel this is very inaccurate anyway based on the context we do have, the assumptions made seem reasonable to me, and they were all prefaced as assumptions due to the nature of being a novel.

Not to mention, the characters who scale to this aren't depicted to be anywhere near this strong. You know that. Stop pretending.

This isn't a calc issue. You are also unfamiliar with the powercreep of Re:Zero, which has infested the Empire arcs. When indexing the job isn't to predict what the author thinks of his characters, it's to look at what they do in the story.

 

[Dalesean027]

They did use the standard 20km and other values present on our cloud calc page that are available under normal context but I do think things can definitely be changed and that feats like this should probably wait for visuals for a better look.

 

[Phoenks]

They did use the standard 20km and other values present on our cloud calc page that are available under normal context but I do think things can definitely be changed and that feats like this should probably wait for visuals for a better look.

Is that a vote for removal then?

 

[Dalesean027]

Is that a vote for removal then?

neutral for now, I do think it has grounds and I do prefer these things to be visual so we don't have to rely on as many assumptions but the number it uses themself are numbers we do accept and have on the page for this purpose so yeah, I'll just see how I feel as this continues and remain neutral for now

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

They did use the standard 20km and other values present on our cloud calc page that are available under normal context but I do think things can definitely be changed and that feats like this should probably wait for visuals for a better look.

Stay tuned for season 6 of Re Zero in 2032.....

Idk if using Todd as an argument for an anti-feat works, he is described as an average solider but with all his plans have killed people far more powerful people than himself. In Re Zero, superhuman feats are done via the cast amping themselves, I suppose we could maybe say Todd caught Rowan off guard? Idk, haven't read that scene in a while, about the dc arguments there, would be like saying because characters don't level a city every time they fight, they can't be city level. But Idk if i want to go down the rabbit hole of arguments.

Cloud cutting is part of the narrative when it comes to Rowan, and it's brought up many times, and speaking of the narrative Tappei himself said from memory that in previous arcs he wanted Re Zero to be grounded, but come to Arc7/8, he changed his mind, so it's not exactly wrong to say previously the cast were intended to be like 8-C or whatever rating they were years ago, but it's been retconned.

But yea this looks like a thread which is gonna devolve into all kinds of arguments.

 

[Dalesean027]

Stay tuned for season 6 of Re Zero in 2032.....

Nah trust I know, i'm waiting on the next season myself

 

[Phoenks]

Stay tuned for season 6 of Re Zero in 2032.....

Idk if using Todd as an argument for an anti-feat works, he is described as an average solider but with all his plans have killed people far more powerful people than himself. In Re Zero, superhuman feats are done via the cast amping themselves, I suppose we could maybe say Todd caught Rowan off guard? Idk, haven't read that scene in a while, about the dc arguments there, would be like saying because characters don't level a city every time they fight, they can't be city level. But Idk if i want to go down the rabbit hole of arguments.

Cloud cutting is part of the narrative when it comes to Rowan, and it's brought up many times, and speaking of the narrative Tappei himself said from memory that in previous arcs he wanted Re Zero to be grounded, but come to Arc7/8, he changed his mind, so it's not exactly wrong to say previously the cast were intended to be like 8-C or whatever rating they were years ago, but it's been retconned.

But yea this looks like a thread which is gonna devolve into all kinds of arguments.

Actually, the explosion harmed him but then Todd killed him with an axe. I would have to go find the scans for it though. But yeah, it is definitely an anti-feat.

The argument I'm making is that the verse being this high is based on a lot of iffy calcs like this. Without this calc, the verse goes back down to 8-B as far as I can tell. That's a massive difference in feats. Tier 8 is far more consistent for the verse.

"cloud cutting" is not necessarily moving clouds. There is nothing in the texts provided that suggests that clouds are being moved by the cuts, rather than just having slices of them destroyed by the force.

neutral for now, I do think it has grounds and I do prefer these things to be visual so we don't have to rely on as many assumptions but the number it uses themself are numbers we do accept and have on the page for this purpose so yeah, I'll just see how I feel as this continues and remain neutral for now

Where is the 5% distance thing derived from? And what evidence do we have to support a 1 second timeframe. As far as I know, that is only used for statements where something happens in an instant.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Snip

The flow method causes people to get higher durability, so if you catch someone off-guard, such as when they are sleeping, it's possible to harm them with much lower AP.

There have been other instances of this too, one such example is of Gaston who would have been killed by Ley but was able to tank the attack by amping himself via the flow method.

It's thus not an anti feat for anybody to get damaged by attacks that are considerably lower than the standard.

The power creep has been real.

 

[Phoenks]

The flow method causes people to get higher durability, so if you catch someone off-guard, such as when they are sleeping, it's possible to harm them with much lower AP.

the way they are indexed would need to be changed to reflect that if that is the case btw. They would be "Varies" tier.

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

the way they are indexed would need to be changed to reflect that if that is the case btw. They would be "Varies" tier.

I agree with this (always have)

Can't wait to FINALLY make those tier 9 skill matchups

 

[Zabazab]

this should probably wait for visuals for a better look.

Tanpenshuu volume 7 is probably never getting a visual adaptation, realistically. At least not within the next decade or two.

Actually, the explosion harmed him but then Todd killed him with an axe. I would have to go find the scans for it though. But yeah, it is definitely an anti-feat.

Todd can kill the likes of Olbart with a sneak attack too. Sneak attacks are simply built different in Re:Zero. Even Reinhard was impaled by Emilia, who obviously doesn't scale to him, with a sneak attack.

Q：I was shocked to see Mr. Olbart, who had tormented Subaru so much in Arc 7, killed by Arakiya with the help of Todd in the IF route released as part of this year’s April Fool’s Day project. I would be happy if you could tell me how Mr. Olbart was killed, what his dying words were, and his birthday, if you don’t mind.

A：Birthdays, then, on Respect for the Aged Day! *
　First of all, Arakiya is insanely strong. While Olbart is distracted by Arakiya, he is ambushed by Todd and is killed. The way he is killed is as follows: Todd gives an order to lure him here, Arakiya leads him there, and with Todd’s “Divine Protection of the Concealing Cloud,” he is attacked from the back and killed without leaving a trace. Because of the surprise attack, Olbart died without being able to say anything.
　I don’t think Arakiya has any motivation to kill Olbart. I think she is close to Olbart and would hesitate, but in that route, Priscilla is by Arakiya’s side, so I think she would cooperate with Priscilla to avoid being abandoned by her.

speaking of the narrative Tappei himself said from memory that in previous arcs he wanted Re Zero to be grounded, but come to Arc7/8, he changed his mind, so it's not exactly wrong to say previously the cast were intended to be like 8-C or whatever rating they were years ago, but it's been retconned.

I believe that would be this and this. Tappei felt as though he broke out of his shell and abandoned the feet-to-the-ground vibe he had in favour of flashier fights in arcs 7 and 8, with condolences to the animators.

 

[Phoenks]

Todd can kill the likes of Olbart with a sneak attack too. Sneak attacks are simply built different in Re:Zero. Even Reinhard was impaled by Emilia, who obviously doesn't scale to him, with a sneak attack.

Then they would need to be changed to Variable durability. Otherwise these are simply anti-feats for them being those tiers at all time.

Though, at the moment, because they aren't variable in tier, it is just an anti-feat.

Thus such things still serve as evidence for the thread, alongside the lack of contextual support and big assumptions.

 

[Dalesean027]

Where is the 5% distance thing derived from? And what evidence do we have to support a 1 second timeframe. As far as I know, that is only used for statements where something happens in an instant

The first part thats not a thing there I mean the actual base numbers like 20km viewing distance and the cloud measurements otherwise the other stuff is all based off of the calcer

 

[Zabazab]

Then they would need to be changed to Variable durability. Otherwise these are simply anti-feats for them being those tiers at all time.

Though, at the moment, because they aren't variable in tier, it is just an anti-feat.

It's not really variable though, not moreso than like. Goku. If you're not using the Flow Method you want be superhuman, just as a character may not be superhuman without chi or cursed energy or mana. It's not as if it's a mechanic where their durability changes with how much mana they have left, it's not variable.

Thus such things still serve as evidence for the thread, alongside the lack of contextual support and big assumptions.

And yet I don't agree that contextual support is lacking (if you refer to parting vs destruction) and I don't think the assumptions are very big, a slash 1/20th the thickness of the target seems reasonable to me. It can be made higher or lower as CGM's suggest. 5%, 3%, 1%. 5 just seemed Fine, particularly compared to the previous 100% which was nonsensical.

 

[Phoenks]

It's not really variable though, not moreso than like. Goku. If you're not using the Flow Method you want be superhuman, just as a character may not be superhuman without chi or cursed energy or mana. It's not as if it's a mechanic where their durability changes with how much mana they have left, it's not variable.

The way you guys are describing it is a clear mechanic though. Their durability drops down to normal superhuman levels when they're off guard. Durability is not normally a variable thing. It's something that you have passively. If it isn't then it has to be changed to reflect that. Otherwise, a 9-B being able to harm a 7-A is completely nonsensical regardless of if the guy is off guard.

In the case of Goku, his things are chopped up to being plot induced stupidly or outliers. Not variable durability.

Re zero has no such luck. The author himself seems to acknowledge this mechanism.

And yet I don't agree that contextual support is lacking (if you refer to parting vs destruction) and I don't think the assumptions are very big, a slash 1/20th the thickness of the target seems reasonable to me. It can be made higher or lower as CGM's suggest. 5%, 3%, 1%. 5 just seemed Fine, particularly compared to the previous 100% which was nonsensical.

It's arbitrary. Completely arbitrary. As arbitrary as just choosing a random number because your text doesn't have anything else.

And again, not even convinced that this is cloud movement. You have yet to prove that one either.

 

[VortechsTG]

My main problem with scaling the rest of the cast to Rowan has nothing to do with what has been discussed. It's because Rowan's cloud cutting is a special technique that he has honed his form for his entire life just to perform. This is what I was saying when this feat was originally applied to the verse. I don’t believe his durability or physical strength would scale to it at all. He isn't portrayed as being that powerful. It's just his sword slashes. I don't think another character being stronger than him necessarily means they can replicate the same level of power. There are other things that make them strong. I think many can, just not someone like Rem or Crusch. And there would need to be other feats to prove it considering the lack of examples of Rowan's slashes actually being used against anyone.

What I really think we need to do is revisit the white whale fight and use literally any other shot than the one where the Flugel tree is visibly way smaller than it normally is.

 

[Zabazab]

I don’t believe his durability or physical strength would scale to it at all. He isn't portrayed as being that powerful. It's just his sword slashes. I don't think another character being stronger than him necessarily means they can replicate the same level of power.

There is evidence in Balleroy having no fear of cloud-cutting, though you could argue he just doesn't find dodging it to be hard.

What I really think we need to do is revisit the white whale fight and use literally any other shot than the one where the Flugel tree is visibly way smaller than it normally is.

It is true that, in that shot, Flugel's tree is almost the exact same height as the IRL tallest tree, which doesn't fit for a supernaturally huge landmark tree. Seems to be partly a consequence of the White Whale being made way bigger in the anime. It'd be better if it had a stated height in-universe but still.

 

[VortechsTG]

There is evidence in Balleroy having no fear of cloud-cutting, though you could argue he just doesn't find dodging it to be hard.

I think, like completely objectively, Balleroy would not find dodging cloud cutting remotely difficult. He is probably the fastest Vollachian after Cecilus and he's also dealing with attacks launched from ground level to the sky. You can perhaps argue that he would not be damaged much by it anyway if he were hit, but you wouldn't use this statement to do so and his durability is clearly on an entirely different level compared to, say, Rem or Arc 4 Garfiel.

 

[Zabazab]

his durability is clearly on an entirely different level compared to, say, Rem or Arc 4 Garfiel.

Idk, Garfiel withstood Al Fura while Valgren was beheaded by El Fura...

 

[VortechsTG]

Idk, Garfiel withstood Al Fura while Valgren was beheaded by El Fura...

We really just shouldn't use Valgren for anything at this point.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

It was done with the force of a sword swing rising into the sky. I don't see how the force of a swing would destroy and vaporize clouds rather than push them out of the way. Cleaving means to split something apart.

Don't chopsticks cut concepts in Re:zero?

And this:

https://i.gyazo.com/349a8a3d74d15316699001af713b5123.jpg

 

[Zabazab]

Don't chopsticks cut concepts in Re:zero?

No, Reid does. Rowan's cloud-cutting technique extends the force of his drawn blade into the sky to split clouds in twain, he cannot shoot sword-lasers. I cannot begin to express how ass Rowan is in comparison to Reid, or even Reinhard and Cecilus. It's a difference of practical infinity.

his durability is clearly on an entirely different level compared to, say, Rem or Arc 4 Garfiel.

I was just thinking on this and, no I don't think Balleroy is on a different level from especially Arc 4 Garfiel. Obviously Balleroy would win as an airborne sniper, but I think if you put him in the same situation Julius was in against a grounded Balleroy, Garfiel would win.

The White Whale is a big chain in scaling too because it means the lower-class mid tiers like Rem, Crusch, Frederica, or Guiltylowe-san all downscale from the higher-class mid-tiers like Old Wilhelm, Ricardo, Julius, or Garfiel. This may be vibe scaling but I cannot see Rowan's cloud-cutting doing much more damage to the Whale's hide than One Blow One-Hundred Felled.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

No, Reid does. Rowan's cloud-cutting technique extends the force of his drawn blade into the sky to split clouds in twain, he cannot shoot sword-lasers. I cannot begin to express how ass Rowan is in comparison to Reid, or even Reinhard and Cecilus. It's a difference of practical infinity.

That's not my point.

You're using logic on Re:zero, can't you see the problem?

The same verse has feats like: a person dodging a lightspeed sand grains inside a sandstorm and dodging an explosion without moving. Where is the logic in those?

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

This may be vibe scaling but I cannot see Rowan's cloud-cutting doing much more damage to the Whale's hide than One Blow One-Hundred Felled.

I do put them on the same level too although logically speaking one is with the help of a DP and the other isn't

That's not my point.

You're using logic on Re:zero, can't you see the problem?

The same verse has feats like: a person dodging a lightspeed sand grains inside a sandstorm and dodging an explosion without moving. Where is the logic in those?

I don't understand your point?

 

[VortechsTG]

I was just thinking on this and, no I don't think Balleroy is on a different level from especially Arc 4 Garfiel. Obviously Balleroy would win as an airborne sniper, but I think if you put him in the same situation Julius was in against a grounded Balleroy, Garfiel would win.

He wouldn't be able to tank Al Clarista if that's what you mean, no. I don't agree in general, but that's just because ex 4 scaling has seemingly been retconned. Tappei very clearly decided to make the divine generals stronger later on. Ex 4 makes Julius look waaaaaaaay out of Garfiel's league just from his fight with Groovy alone. Include his fights with Balleroy and Cecilus, and it genuinely makes it seem like he would kill Garfiel before they can even exchange a single blow.

Consider the scaling of the new divine generals. Spica, who is "not far behind" Kafma, could not do a thing to Harline, but Volcas can easily no-sell Breznon's attacks and shatter his legs. Groovy is even stronger and is treated as the weakest divine general. He's certainly weaker than Balleroy. Yet he can put up a good fight against Eugard who then fought Halibel and is spoken of in the same breath as current Garfiel. Goz also puts up a pretty similar fight against Lamia to Garfiel. Balleroy is even stronger. Everything Julius does in ex 4 just doesn't make sense in hindsight. Especially blocking attacks from Cecilus

 

[Zabazab]

Consider the scaling of the new divine generals. Spica, who is "not far behind" Kafma, could not do a thing to Harline, but Volcas can easily no-sell Breznon's attacks and shatter his legs.

Maybe we should give Tappei 12 lashings every time he does weird Ex Novel scaling (Young Wilhelm going toe-to-toe with Valgren, who Ram one-shot / Young Wilhelm struggling to cut a Sand Worm which Shaula can one-shot without trying).

I also entirely forgot Breznon has a statement for some mountain destruction...

Arakiya: [―It’s coming.]

It happened at the next moment. ―A roar thundered across the campground, and a part of the mountain was blown away. —The Land of the Nascent Wolves, Undead Busters III

Especially blocking attacks from Cecilus

Highkey before Tappei decided to have the modern transcendents be on Reinhard's level. And he was jobbing beyond-belief. It feels like he had them at around Theresia/Prime Wil level and then made them way stronger, but then also made Wil & Theresia stronger but not quite as strong as the big 4?

In hindsight Q&As from as recent as 2018 seem really funny now. "Of course a nuke is stronger than Theresia's sword..." vs Volume 41 content.

 

[VortechsTG]

Highkey before Tappei decided to have the modern transcendents be on Reinhard's level. And he was jobbing beyond-belief. It feels like he had them at around Theresia/Prime Wil level and then made them way stronger, but then also made Wil & Theresia stronger but not quite as strong as the big 4?

Well, I think all of them are stronger than originally intended but not Reinhard level

In hindsight Q&As from as recent as 2018 seem really funny now. "Of course a nuke is stronger than Theresia's sword..." vs Volume 41 content.

They were always very silly to be frank

 

[Zabazab]

I think all of them are stronger than originally intended

Empire arc impact. Even Rem is showing symptoms.

 

[VortechsTG]

Empire arc impact. Even Rem is showing symptoms.

Tbh, I can very easily believe Rem always having been as strong as Garfiel, Elsa, Old Wilhelm, etc back in arcs 3 and 4. It's really just QnA content that strongly suggests otherwise. Comparing their actual feats in the story it doesn't seem like she's equal to Frederica at all.

 

[Zabazab]

Comparing their actual feats in the story it doesn't seem like she's equal to Frederica at all.

Frederica is weird. Her Q&As suggest she's as-strong or slightly stronger than Rem even. She was said to be physically stronger than Emilia while beastified, but Emilia can out-bench Julius. She needed Patrasche's support to kill Guiltylowe, and while she clashed with Elsa for a bit, Elsa works on Saiyan logic. Her best feat might be her emotional eruption in Kasaneru where she draws blood from a distracted, holding-back, injured from 1v3ing Marcos/Wilhelm/Julius, base Clind (who is physically ≈ Garfiel).

 

[Phoenks]

My main problem with scaling the rest of the cast to Rowan has nothing to do with what has been discussed. It's because Rowan's cloud cutting is a special technique that he has honed his form for his entire life just to perform. This is what I was saying when this feat was originally applied to the verse. I don’t believe his durability or physical strength would scale to it at all. He isn't portrayed as being that powerful. It's just his sword slashes. I don't think another character being stronger than him necessarily means they can replicate the same level of power. There are other things that make them strong. I think many can, just not someone like Rem or Crusch. And there would need to be other feats to prove it considering the lack of examples of Rowan's slashes actually being used against anyone.

What I really think we need to do is revisit the white whale fight and use literally any other shot than the one where the Flugel tree is visibly way smaller than it normally is.

Btw can you send the context for this? If his cloud cutting technique is specifically a unique application of his skills, then regardless of this calc being accepted or not, it should only scale to that technique of his, rather than scaling to his stats directly.

 

[VortechsTG]

Btw can you send the context for this? If his cloud cutting technique is specifically a unique application of his skills, then regardless of this calc being accepted or not, it should only scale to that technique of his, rather than scaling to his stats directly.

Spoiler: Arc 8 Chapter 43

In the midst of a chat between Arakiya and Cecilus, who were the defeated and the victor respectively, a conversation taking place in a vast field reduced to a scorched plot, the latter had sliced open the clouds with his katana, a technique he had purported as being nothing but something for show.
In reality, Cecilus had thought it held no utility other than for surprising people; having witnessed it first-hand, Arakiya too evaluated that as a skill devoid of any useful purpose whatsoever.
That, was the divine miracle of empty sky that Rowan Segmunt had spent his lifetime devising―― for those who were transcendent monsters, it was worthy of naught more than being dubbed a flashy performance.

 

[Phoenks]

The narrative makes it out to be more of an aesthetic than a showcase of power with those words. Yet the pages interpret that as though it means "it's weak and anyone can perform attacks that output enough power to split clouds."

Would agree with you that it shouldn't be treated how it is even outside of the calculation issues.

 

[Crimsonobu]

Tbh, I can very easily believe Rem always having been as strong as Garfiel, Elsa, Old Wilhelm, etc back in arcs 3 and 4. It's really just QnA content that strongly suggests otherwise. Comparing their actual feats in the story it doesn't seem like she's equal to Frederica at all.

Abruptly, something tugged on his sleeve.
“—Subaru.”
Rem was grasping Subaru’s sleeve, her eyes filled with sadness.
“Please calm down. Nothing will come of losing control here. And if you do, I won’t be able to fight off Master Wilhelm.”

The main story suggests something similar here volume 6 then again volume 7

“Feels like we scored a point, but it ain’t easy breakin’ through that thick hide underneath. ’Cept for a weapon like mine with brute force, or Mr. Wil’s skills, it’s a drop in the ol’ bucket.”

Where Rem and Crusch are both drops in a bucket compared to Wilhelm or Ricardo.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

This should be in calc group discussions not in a CRT

The passage states that the clouds were "cleaved in twain right down the middle." It makes absolutely no mention of the clouds being moved away from the force of the cut. Just that it split them down the middle. This is a feat of cloud destruction (making a straight line down the clouds) rather than physically moving clouds apart.
The calculation also makes multiple assumptions to fill in the largely missing context. For one, it assumes a random distance of "5% of cloud diameter" which is not backed up by anything. The clouds aren't said to even be moving. For two, it assumes that the speed of this already theoretical movement is instantaneous off the basis that the attack itself is nigh-instantaneous. That doesn't make much sense either. Just because the attack itself was fast doesn't mean the clouds were parted by "1000 meters" in one second. Genuinely don't know why that is accepted.

Agreed with this, those assumed values do not seem to be substantiated with proper evidence, the calc needs to be gutted

And before you point to this calculation as a replacement. This is another cloud feat that is also majorly wrong. The biggest issue is that it assumes the feat is done in one strike when the passage makes it clear it was done across multiple:
"Continuous were the sounds of blows clashing, the rain of destruction, the impacts which bid tears from the sky above, as dark clouds were torn asunder, giving birth to light."
Multiple, continuous blows. Not just one. Moreover, this calculation also uses KE when there is similarly not enough context to make any assumptions regarding speed and distance. So refer to the above.

Uhh I'm not so sure, it's not like these things build up a charge in the sense that 9 punches make nothing but 10 punches split the clouds, they usually happen due to strong singular events within a fight with multiple clashes (unless its something like 1 punch split the clouds 2 cm wide, after 10 punches the clouds were split 20cm, if that is the case then that calc should probably go as well)

 

[Phoenks]

This should be in calc group discussions not in a CRT


Agreed with this, those assumed values do not seem to be substantiated with proper evidence, the calc needs to be gutted

Uhh I'm not so sure, it's not like these things build up a charge in the sense that 9 punches make nothing but 10 punches split the clouds, they usually happen due to strong singular events within a fight with multiple clashes (unless its something like 1 punch split the clouds 2 cm wide, after 10 punches the clouds were split 20cm, if that is the case then that calc should probably go as well)

The problem with that second calculation is that it wasn't a singular attack or even a singular person which performed the feat, yet it is calculated as though it was. That's an issue.

When there is a number of attacks the calculation has to be divided by that number. But in this case, we don't even know how many attacks it took to "tear the clouds asunder," so it's an unusable calculation and likely can't even be re-calced due to that added vagueness. In addition to other issues.