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Questioning some OFF (game) stats: Part 1 of 3

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Howdy! Today I am here because recently I have gone through OFF and find myself questioning some of the stats and feats listed for the verse. I won't be questioning the Player's tier (that is a separate conversation). I will be referencing Mortis Ghost's 15 anniversary Q/A, alongside a summary post for the video (though I will post timestamps as well). This will be in 3 parts since I am sick at this time.

Part 1: Guardians making their zones and it being rated at 5-B


Zones and Guardians:
According to Mortis Ghost (creator of the game), Zones are floating continents of a broken world (2:33:34-2:24:30). According to the Guardians in the section of the Room that details the past, the world is a post-apocalyptic Earth. This matches what Mortis says, in that the world of OFF is a dead world after apocalypse occurred (1:30:57-1:31:51). Dedan mentions in the flashback that they (himself, Enoch and Japhet) and the Queen will rebuild the destroyed countries and chart them out. Later on, in the game the Queen asks the Batter why he has destroyed the land she rebuilt.

Book in the Zone 2 Library shed a little more clarification. The Queen selected the Guardians to rule and watch over the Zones. Furthermore, the Guardians receive energy from the Queen in order to shape said energy in to living spaces for the Elsen. According to Mortis, the Queen and Hugo emanate power to "strong willed people" in order to make places (1:56:28-1:58:06) (example he gives is Judge and Zone 0, Dedan and Zone 1). The Book of Japhet shows how this works, detailing Japhet drawing from the last of his energy pool to make his library, grander than it ever was (this part is interesting because it suggests he is rebuilding a destroyed library from the past).

Given the details we have, I propose instead of the Guardian creating country/continent sized landmasses from the Queen/Hugo's energy, they instead created living spaces on the floating continents, rebuilding destroyed structures overtime from before the apocalypse occurred. This is still done via turning energy to mass, so I am not against this process applying to AP (official artwork also depicts Dedan's competence as energy, likely from the same energy pool). Japhet's book confirms the process of creating living spaces is overtime, which lines up with Dedan's speech in the flashback. Japhet making the library could potentially use a calc, though the timeframe he made it in isn't detailed.

Evidence that has been presented to me prior for the creation of the landmasses is the fact Guardians sustain the existence of the Zones. Enoch comments that guardians are the living engines of their zones. Enoch comments that Zone will disappear when he dies, which is consistent with what Mortis says, in that a Guardian's death causes a Zone to turn white and disappear. My issue with this is that the disappearance takes a while to occur. Initially the Zone turns fully white and text present within said Zone becomes unreadable, but the Zone is still physically present (for example Judge is seen crying on the library rooftop in Zone 2 after Japhet's death). Judge's ending has him walking through all the purified Zones until he eventually walks through a white void. It is interesting to note though, that parts of Zone 3 "white out" as if purified when Enoch tires out from chasing the Batter. Overall, Zones do not immediately disappear when Guardians die. The reason they lack any life is because the secretaries murdered all the Elsen, as stated by Mortis in a DeviantArt Q/A.

Summary: I think there is more evidence to suggest Guardians created all the living spaces in the Zones rather than the landmasses themselves. The argument of sustaining the Zones also does not detail that it takes a long time for said zone to fully disappear after the death of Guardian. I am proposing the removal of the 5-B tier for Enoch, Japhet, and Dedan. It can be replaced with the calculation for a Burnt Elsen stopping a train (more on this in another CRT) or a calc going over Japhet making the Library of Bismark.
 
Book in the Zone 2 Library shed a little more clarification. The Queen selected the Guardians to rule and watch over the Zones. Furthermore, the Guardians receive energy from the Queen in order to shape said energy in to living spaces for the Elsen. According to Mortis, the Queen and Hugo emanate power to "strong willed people" in order to make places (1:56:28-1:58:06) (example he gives is Judge and Zone 0, Dedan and Zone 1). The Book of Japhet shows how this works, detailing Japhet drawing from the last of his energy pool to make his library, grander than it ever was (this part is interesting because it suggests he is rebuilding a destroyed library from the past).
Given the details we have, I propose instead of the Guardian creating country/continent sized landmasses from the Queen/Hugo's energy, they instead created living spaces on the floating continents, rebuilding destroyed structures overtime from before the apocalypse occurred.
I'm not sure what the evidence that they didn't rebuild the entire continents is supposed to be. The only thing you point at is that they recreated a previously existing library, but I don't think that makes more or less sense with either interpretation- whether there was a landmass or not before Japhet rolled up, the structure wasn't there, so either way it would have to be built in the image of a former one, not literally building on top of it.

The fact that they're continents floating on top of the oceans is also evidence that they were rebuilt from scratch in my opinion. If this is a post-apocalyptic Earth, well our continents don't do that obviously, so it makes more sense to say that they're new ones. There's also the fact that the sea is now all plastic and such- whatever this apocalypse was it clearly affected all of the planet pretty radically.

Finally, "sketch out the maps for the countries that will be ours" absolutely implies that they're at bare minimum reshaping the landmasses significantly, and likely making them for scratch (it can't just be "drawing borders between them", given they're all separated by the ocean).

I actually no longer agree with the creation stuff for OFF (these keys at least), but not really because of this stuff- my issue regarding both the library creation and the Zones as a whole, is that all of it is done overtime as far as we can tell (and I don't think there's a timeframe?). That is a fairly significant concern that could invalidate the feats. This, though, I don't really give much validity to.
This is still done via turning energy to mass, so I am not against this process applying to AP (official artwork also depicts Dedan's competence as energy, likely from the same energy pool). Japhet's book confirms the process of creating living spaces is overtime, which lines up with Dedan's speech in the flashback. Japhet making the library could potentially use a calc, though the timeframe he made it in isn't detailed.
I would actually disagree with this being E=mc^2- we have pretty clear standards that it should only be used if the process is clearly brought up, essentially by name, and that isn't the case in OFF.
Summary: I think there is more evidence to suggest Guardians created all the living spaces in the Zones rather than the landmasses themselves. The argument of sustaining the Zones also does not detail that it takes a long time for said zone to fully disappear after the death of Guardian. I am proposing the removal of the 5-B tier for Enoch, Japhet, and Dedan. It can be replaced with the calculation for a Burnt Elsen stopping a train (more on this in another CRT) or a calc going over Japhet making the Library of Bismark.
There's a higher tier 8 calc, albeit it's not evaluated yet.
 
as discussed on the cord:

I guess I could have explained it better but the reason I believe it's not necessarily creation is that the books pretty much imply the guardians inherited the zones from the queen meaning they already existed, and when talking about zones, Mortis mentions they are the floating continents present in a destroyed world with light spots meant for travel. I'm not sure their creation would produce connections to the nothingness?We know the world OFF is super weird given the oceans of liquid plastic and seas of liquid meat

Discussion is still in progress there
 
to be honest If you watch the scene for the elsen and the train. I think the train just stopped naturally. There is no impact with the elsen and when the batter comes of the train the elsen is some meters away from the stopped train.

 
to be honest If you watch the scene for the elsen and the train. I think the train just stopped naturally. There is no impact with the elsen and when the batter comes of the train the elsen is some meters away from the stopped train.


I'd rather not use the Markiplier walkthrough as it uses the Translation 2.0 which is just outdated here.

However, it says the same for the 3.0 version, and... I guess so?

 
Not going to bother with OFF here, but I'd like to point this:

I remember there being a LS calc associated with this feat, which is completely wrong as it didn't take in account that this formula exists for these cases, which would solve the issue in taking a totally arbitrarily distance which just doesn't exist.

Wanted to only point this out.
Yeah it isn't a good calc. Neither is the OG AP one I don't think
 
I would say that the zones disappear in a quick enough timeframe (over the course of the game) that creation stuff can be used for AP (although if this was to be adjusted for a reasonable assumed timeframe, I'd be into it). I agree on certain facets of the CRT, though, in particular on LS and the matter of the train.
 
I would say that the zones disappear in a quick enough timeframe (over the course of the game) that creation stuff can be used for AP (although if this was to be adjusted for a reasonable assumed timeframe, I'd be into it). I agree on certain facets of the CRT, though, in particular on LS and the matter of the train.
Well, the issue is 2-fold, we don't know how long judge is walking in his ending through the Zones. I showed one zone but he actually walks through all of them as the credits play. It is not until the very end of the game that everything finally has turned into a white void. We don't know how much time passes through the credits. Furthermore, it takes this entire time for Dedan's Zone 1 to fully disappear, the very first Zone to be purified.

Another Issue is if we go with the option of Creation, we have no timeframe. Valerie has lived in Zone 2 for numerous years according to Judge. Less direct is Japhet (who existed before Zone 2 became a thing) calling himself the "Millennial Firebird". Overall, there is no time frame.

I also personally don't think the landmasses were created by the Guardians, since the in-game lore books consistently mention they inherited the already existing Zones from the Queen in order to rule and make living spaces for the Elsen (or the "power to make places" as Mortis calls it in the Q/A). Considering the flashback with the Guardians, Deden mentions the Queen went to see the "new world" (likely the floating continents mentioned by Mortis as part of the broken world post apocalypse) and that they would all rebuild. This point is more likely given the book of Japhet mentions Japhet rebuilding the Library of Bismark. (All mentioned in the OP).
 
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Well, the issue is 2-fold, we don't know how long judge is walking in his ending through the Zones. I showed one zone but he actually walks through all of them as the credits play. It is not until the very end of the game that everything finally has turned into a white void. We don't know how much time passes through the credits. Furthermore, it takes this entire time for Dedan's Zone 1 to fully disappear, the very first Zone to be purified.

Another Issue is if we go with the option of Creation, we have no timeframe. Valerie has lived in Zone 2 for numerous years according to Judge. Less direct is Japhet (who existed before Zone 2 became a thing) calling himself the "Millennial Firebird". Overall, there is no time frame.

I also personally don't think the landmasses were created by the Guardians, since the in-game lore books consistently mention they inherited the already existing Zones from the Queen in order to rule and make living spaces for the Elsen (or the "power to make places" as Mortis calls it in the Q/A. Considering the flashback with the Guardians, Deden mentions the Queen went to see the "new world" (likely the floating continents mentioned by Mortis as part of the broken world post apocalypse) and that they would all rebuild. This point is more likely given the book of Japhet mentions Japhet rebuilding the Library of Bismark. (All mentioned in the OP).
That's still a fairly small timeframe, small enough that it seems to me generally valid to use.

I don't think those issues of timeframe for creation are particularly relevant, as they don't imply some great timeframe. They also aren't (obviously) relevant to the feat of sustaining their zones, so I feel these points are moot.

I'm fine with the feats of sustenance as they are, although if recalcs are desired to account for the time it is assumed to take for the zone to fade, or to adjust the size of the zones, I am content with that.
 
I personally think the timeframe for the fading is rather hard to properly calculate, we really have no idea how long Judge was wandering around for, especially considering that, after killing Batter, this would just be the rest of his life, wandering around endlessly. We have no real timeframe for it, and it would by necessity have to be arbitrarily assumed. I think sticking with the Large Building decapitation calc whenever it gets approved is proooobably for the best

If anyone has a genuine attempt at calculating what sustaining would get with the new arguments though I'd be interested.
 
Eh. If it comes down to a difference in interpretation, fair's fair I guess. I don't feel strongly, but I still lean in favor of it being fine and vote as such. So long as the opinion is noted, content to see whichever way the thread goes.
 
Huh... what about this though?


Edit: I know that this might be lowkey unrelated as the context between the two white spaces definitely seems different, just interesting enough to point out.

Interesting. It's not likely the intention for the Judge Ending, but if it was it would harm creation even more because you lose any frame of time for their disappearance
 
Interesting. It's not likely the intention for the Judge Ending, but if it was it would harm creation even more because you lose any frame of time for their disappearance
Actually I think that room is just the beginning of the erasure of the Zone 3, as it wouldn't make sense for Judge to wander in a tiny white room if before he was just travelling in open areas.

I just thought it's interesting. Anyway, I do not think it's enough to just pretend that Tier 5 does not exist here, given that their creation seems to be treated on the same rate as the destruction of the zones.
 
Tier 5 probably doesn't exist anyways because E=mc^2 isn't valid here
 
Since E=mc^2 cannot be used a timeframe is still needed. We have no timeframe for creation, but a few decades for it is around 9-A if I recall
 
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