Question about Umineko

[Nekobako]

1. Due to the new standard of Acausality type 5, WTC characters still have it?

2. All abilities that related on Fragment manipulation such as Plot manipulation, Fate manipulation or Causality manipulation are exclusive for Game master but most of WTC characters have them so they should be removed from characters profile who isn't the Game master?

3. Ange's golden truth can resurrect a character and make them as a part of Ange's world that is unaffected from Red Truth because their existence and resurrection are conflict with the fact be like

Red Truth: They are dead. (Bern can still say the Red so Red Truth still effective)
but Golden Truth : They are alive. (And they're alive even if Red Truth still effective)

So should Ange's Golden Truth be considered as Resistance from Red Truth abilities like Resistance to concept manipulation, Resistance to Regeneration negation (High-godly) and apply to all characters in Ange's world?

 

[Railgun]

I also want to know answer of this questions (bump)

 

[Nekobako]

bump

 

[Magicomethkuon]

3. Ange's golden truth can resurrect a character and make them as a part of Ange's world that is unaffected from Red Truth because their existence and resurrection are conflict with the fact be like

Red Truth: They are dead. (Bern can still say the Red so Red Truth still effective)
but Golden Truth : They are alive. (And they're alive even if Red Truth still effective)

So should Ange's Golden Truth be considered as Resistance from Red Truth abilities like Resistance to concept manipulation, Resistance to Regeneration negation (High-godly) and apply to all characters in Ange's world?

A common misconception born from the complexity of Ange's power. The Witch of Revival's Golden Truth is metaphorical: The ones "revived" with it are not those declared dead with the red. Rather, they are perfect recreations shaped from the perception of who they were, in Ange's heart. That is why the Revival works even when the Red is effective. The way she chooses to remember those people isn't a decision for anyone else to make.

"It can't be, she (Furudo Erika) showed up..."
"Isn't your sister a witch that can revive the dead? If Ange wishes it, life and death don't matter."
"...But she doesn't call herself a witch that can revive the dead."
"Others don't understand it, but that means they don't have reason to deny it. That's the power of the Witch of Calling back the dead."
"To summarize, Ange's brain can call up virtual personalities at will, like parallel thought processing. It's a handy sort of magic, piece."

Ange's power isn't one that resists the Red Truth, something fundamentally impossible. It is one that loopholes it by making Red Truths about the living and the dead not matter to her. That is why it is so central to her character arc.

 

[Nekobako]

A common misconception born from the complexity of Ange's power. The Witch of Revival's Golden Truth is metaphorical: The ones "revived" with it are not those declared dead with the red. Rather, they are perfect recreations shaped from the perception of who they were, in Ange's heart. That is why the Revival works even when the Red is effective. The way she chooses to remember those people isn't a decision for anyone else to make.

Hmm, I'm still confused but I'll try to understand.

Even if they are the perception in Ange's heart but before that they died because Golden land vanished by Erika and after Beatrice died, they're dead completely by the Red (Eva-Beatrice died after the red although she exists in City of Books)
and they got resurrected after Ange understand it.
It isn't mean that they got revived after killed by Red??

Moreover

Ange : "Everyone will be with me for eternity. No matter how many times people try to kill them with the red truth,..I'll reject it. Everyone will come back to me, again and again.

Ange's power isn't one that resists the Red Truth, something fundamentally impossible. It is one that loopholes it by making Red Truths about the living and the dead not matter to her. That is why it is so central to her character arc.

Life and death not matter to her isn't mean she can resurrect if she wishes??? and also If Ange didn't acknowledge that they're dead isn't mean life and death not matter to Ange.???

So Red Truth is meaningless at the beginning and not resistance????

"A believing heart. This is 'our' consensus. Compared to the truth that we all acknowledge and share, your red truth can't hurt anything."

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Life and death not matter to her isn't mean she can resurrect if she wishes??? and also If Ange didn't acknowledge that they're dead isn't mean life and death not matter to Ange.???

So Red Truth is meaningless at the beginning and not resistance????

"A believing heart. This is 'our' consensus. Compared to the truth that we all acknowledge and share, your red truth can't hurt anything."

Eres correcto. Ange's power does not stop the Red Truth of someone being alive or dead, but it makes such a truth effectively irrelevant. It can't be called Resistance because she's not stopping the Red Truth, but giving shape to an independent truth that belongs only to her. If added to her character page, describing the inner workings of her power would do Witch of Resurrection more justice than listing it as another layer of resistances.

 

[Nekobako]

So Bern's Red Truth still refer to characters who got revive to City of books but they're uneffected because Golden Truth make them irrelevant to the red instead of resistance to it?

(*Is it similar to Nep type 1 Aspect 2 that uneffected by Conceptual manipulation but it isn't resistance to conceptual manipulation???)

And without Golden Truth (If Ange didn't understand), they should be denied the existence by the Red normally?

 

[Magicomethkuon]

So Bern's Red Truth still refer to characters who got revive to City of books but they're uneffected because Golden Truth make them irrelevant to the red instead of resistance to it?

(*Is it similar to Nep type 1 Aspect 2 that uneffected by Conceptual manipulation but it isn't resistance to conceptual manipulation???)

And without Golden Truth (If Ange didn't understand), they should be denied the existence by the Red normally?

Something like that. The Red Truth does not interact with the Golden one. Red Truth is factual reality, Golden Truth is belief in spite of it. As such, they are not mutually exclusive. Remember the cup with hidden candy? Ange knew it wasn't magic that made that candy (Red Truth), but chose to believe the love of her family made it be (Golden Truth). Other examples exist, but giving the MAGIC END of Episode 8 and LAST NOTE OF THE GOLDEN WITCH a read would help clear your doubts better than me.

 

[Darksmash]

Why would GT resist RT abilities? Ange just blocked the red truth, she didn't tank it or anything.

 

[Ovy7]

Yeah, there's not really a hierarchy between the Truths, and it's directly stated that Gold can be stronger or weaker than Red, so it shouldn't get resistance to it.

 

[Nekobako]

Eres correcto. Ange's power does not stop the Red Truth of someone being alive or dead, but it makes such a truth effectively irrelevant. It can't be called Resistance because she's not stopping the Red Truth, but giving shape to an independent truth that belongs only to her. If added to her character page, describing the inner workings of her power would do Witch of Resurrection more justice than listing it as another layer of resistances.

If the Red Truth effectively irrelevant to Golden Truth and Golden Truth is an independent truth then

Should Golden Truth (Ange's power) be "Immunity" to Red Truth?

 

[Darksmash]

If the Red Truth effectively irrelevant to Golden Truth and Golden Truth is an independent truth then

Should Golden Truth (Ange's power) be "Immunity" to Red Truth?

Not always the case. Golden truth can be inferior to red truth in some cases.

 

[Railgun]

1. Due to the new standard of Acausality type 5, WTC characters still have it?

New acausality is too complicated. I'm not sure if they are gonna have it or not. What do knowledgeable members think?

 

[Ovy7]

They have at least Type 4, maybe one could argue type 5.

 

[Nekobako]

Not always the case. Golden truth can be inferior to red truth in some cases.

I know that it is in some cases but is that statement relevant without a feat?

IIRC, in the story never show that the Red Truth is superior than Golden Truth

Even if it can but Ange's Golden Truth isn't inferior to the Red Truth at that time also?

 

[Darksmash]

I know that it is in some cases but is that statement relevant without a feat?

IIRC, in the story never show that the Red Truth is superior than Golden Truth

Even if it can but Ange's Golden Truth isn't inferior to the Red Truth at that time also?

Of course the statement is relevant. It's a fact about golden truth. Just because there's no feat demonstrating cases where red truths are superior to golden truths doesn't invalidate said statement.

Also it depends on the exact red truth used. Ange's golden truths isn't necessarily gonna work in all scenarios. If you paid attention to the story you would know that her situation only worked because of context.