Question about NEP

[Phoenks]

So I recently saw on the profile that NEP has the requirement of the body/physical aspect of someone being non-existent.

I just wanted to ask, if that is the case, then how are you supposed to index characters who have a physical body but possess other nonexistent states of being?

Like if a character specifically has a non-existent soul, or non-existent concept. Not saying that they lack those aspects completely (in the way that a rock lacks a soul), but that they exist in a state of nonexistence (for example, maybe their soul is a void). Could be Type 1, 2, or 3.

Or perhaps if that person has a deeper aspect of themselves that exist in a higher plane, which itself is some form of nonexistence?

Tbh I don't really see why the body is a requirement. If the page itself acknowledges that some parts of being can be non-existent and others not (that's what the types are for), idk why the body aspect of someone is non negotiable. But whatever.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I just wanted to ask, if that is the case, then how are you supposed to index characters who have a physical body but possess other nonexistent states of being?

Just say "Immunity to X (Lacks X thing)" and done.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Like if a character specifically has a non-existent soul, or non-existent concept.

We have always handled such cases with immunity (immunity to soul manipulation and conceptual manipulation).

Or perhaps if that person has a deeper aspect of themselves that exist in a higher plane, which itself is some form of nonexistence?

The case you are talking about is not related to the nature of NEP, but to aspects.

For example, the "Nameless Ones" in the Earthsea series I recently started reading will, they lacked of the True Name (probably True Names be listed on the wiki as a type 3 concept), so when I (hope) add them to the wiki, they will have as immune to conceptual manipulation.

 

[Phoenks]

Just say "Immunity to X (Lacks X thing)" and done.

That is not the same thing. Since they have a soul, it is just in a nonexistent state of being.

I don't understand why Immunity would suffice here. Is that really what the wiki does? Lol.

How would you even distinguish between the three types of nonexistence with "Immunity." That doesn't make much sense.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Is that really what the wiki does?

Yes.

 

[Phoenks]

Yes.

Flowey just lacks a soul.

Not having a soul = / = having a nonexistent soul.

That isn't the same thing. It doesn't relate to my question.

If you had a soul which has Type 3 Nonexistence, meaning it both does and doesn't exist subjectively, but you do have a physical body, how would you index that? For example.

 

[CodeCCLL]

Not having a soul = / = having a nonexistent soul.

The two are and must be handled in exactly the same way.

While true nonexistence in the philosophical sense is impossible to prove, lesser forms of the idea appear often in fiction.

A soul that non-exist is the same as being lack of a soul.

Even a soul that can be described as non-existent from a philosophical perspective actually exists in and its true non-existence cannot be proven.

 

[Phoenks]

You are going on a tangent that does not relate to the question at hand.

There are multiple states of nonexistence something can have. That's the whole reason Types exist.

The "lacking" of an aspect is not the same as it being nonexistent in terms of wiki terminology.

Refer back to my example, since this will actually help me answer my question, rather than you getting stuck up on the semantics.

If you, in theory, had a soul which qualifies for Type 3 Nonexistence, meaning it both does and doesn't exist simultaneously, but you do have just a normal, physical body, how would you index that?

 

[CodeCCLL]

Refer back to my example

You can expand what I said to your example. The case you are mention about is also considered immunity to soul manipulation. One more reason to add the ability of paradoxical existence to the wiki.

 

[Phoenks]

The case you are mention about is also considered immunity to soul manipulation

If that truly is the case that's really, annoyingly stupid xD.

Type 1 Nonexistent Soul = Immunity to Soul
Type 2 Nonexistent Soul = Immunity to Soul
Type 3 Nonexistent Soul = Immunity to Soul

Literally just not having a soul at all because souls aren't a thing in your universe = Immunity to soul

That makes ZERO sense to me so I am hoping that isn't the case.


Like, in the case of type 1, 2, and 3, if you have someone with sufficient NPI (Ability to interact with nonexistence), they would be able to affect that soul despite the "immunity."


But if someone literally just lacks soul because souls are not a thing in the universe, no NPI is going to affect them even still. That's what I consider an actual immunity.


Gonna wait for hopefully more people to confirm.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Don't we just index it as Limited NEP? Limited due to the fact that only one aspect of your being is affected (The soul in this case). I don't think it is just immunity, as having an existent and non-existent soul is different from just not having a soul in the first place. The former kind of exists (albeit in a weird non-existent way, but the verse acknowledges that non-existent shenanigans are a thing), while the latter is just not having it and the verse acknowledging it as literally just not having a soul. The former has a quality (Nonexistence), while the latter is just lacking it entirely like an inanimate object, even as a quality. A guy that affects NEP Soul is not gonna somehow affect a thing that just completely lacks a soul, like a stone.

I am making a profile for a verse that has something like this (Until I decided to remove it because the evidence wasn't enough).

 

[Phoenks]

I see.

Tbh I just feel like there should've been an additional type for a "physical/body" aspect, instead of just assuming all users of the ability should have a non-existent body.

I guess the limited approach makes sense though it's funny how that goes against what the profile makes out to be an absolutely necessary requirement for the power.

 

[Da3ggman]

I just wanted to ask, if that is the case, then how are you supposed to index characters who have a physical body but possess other nonexistent states of being?

The In-Betweener

The In-Betweener is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appeared in Warlock #9 (Oct. 1974) and was created by Jim Starlin. By the In-Betweener's own admission, he represents duality itself, specifically in respect to concepts such as...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The In-Betweener covers this, actually.

Though tbh I should probably get him to have Non-Existent Physicals too.

 

[Vietthai96]

Nature Type 3, paradoxical, they are exists, but behave as they are nonexistent

Limited NEP just mean part of their existence is NEP while other is not, or they can only achieve NEP state via limited method rather than full on being nonexistent

 

[Phoenks]

The In-Betweener

The In-Betweener is a fictional character that appears in comic books published by Marvel Comics. The character first appeared in Warlock #9 (Oct. 1974) and was created by Jim Starlin. By the In-Betweener's own admission, he represents duality itself, specifically in respect to concepts such as...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The In-Betweener covers this, actually.

Though tbh I should probably get him to have Non-Existent Physicals too.

Where exactly on this profile does it make it clear he does have a physical body?

 

[SweetDao]

I do agree that it seems rather weird to postulate the need (or lack thereof) of a physical body to get NEP, especially in the case of NEP 3.

If a regular human (with a physical body) has his concept/soul/mind as something nonexistent, it shouldn't compromise that he has an aspect of himself that fits one of the nature and one of the aspect of NEP.

 

[Vietthai96]

you actually do not need to be lacking physical body to be NEP3 though, i don't understand where that notion come from??, NEP1 and 2 yes, you need to be lacking and existing body first

 

[SweetDao]

you actually do not need to be lacking physical body to be NEP3 though, i don't understand where that notion come from??, NEP1 and 2 yes, you need to be lacking and existing body first

The question is why, though? Why is it a requirement?

I think it's a problem with the explanation within the page that needs a little rework rather than a tacite requirement. I don't see why having a physical body would somewhat make your "paradoxical non-existent mind/soul/concept" become limited. Those two things are likely not related.

 

[Phoenks]

Why exactly would that apply to Type 3 but not the others? I don't understand.

The physical body of every character with this ability has to be nonexistent.

Makes no sense to me since you can have characters who have NEP for other parts of them.

Maybe should be a CRT to make body/physical nonexistence a type. Or something else at least. Cause that is a weird requirement.

 

[SweetDao]

Maybe should be a CRT to make body/physical nonexistence a type. Or something else at least. Cause that is a weird requirement.

I completely agree with this, it seems like a weird requirement.

 

[Vietthai96]

The question is why, though? Why is it a requirement?

I think it's a problem with the explanation within the page that needs a little rework rather than a tacite requirement. I don't see why having a physical body would somewhat make your "paradoxical non-existent mind/soul/concept" become limited. Those two things are likely not related.

NEP mean that you lacking things that constitute and necessary for your existence, the first is your body, of course then soul, mind, etc.....

So if you talking about thy lacking physical body is a must then we can look at other thing such as Robot, Robot do not have mind or soul, consciousness, their body is made up the technological parts, so why they not nonexistent, because robot do not need mind, soul, consciousness to existing, those aspect isn't necessary for them, they could well lack even concepts or information,

if we going to by your logic, robot is nonexistent, rock is nonexistent, building is nonexistent, a space-time dimension is also nonexistent, etc.......heck there are verse out there with setting that human in the verse do not have soul cause they follow science strictly, is all human in that verse nonexistent???...

What we deduce is nonexistent depend on the target of deduction and what constitute and necessary for their existence, for living being the first thing that make you exist is your body then your soul, mind and consciousness (some verse human do not have soul), for a dimensions what make them exist is the physical dimensional axes that constitute them, not soul, etc........

 

[Phoenks]

So if you talking about thy lacking physical body is a must then we can look at other thing such as Robot, Robot do not have mind or soul, consciousness, their body is made up the technological parts, so why they not nonexistent, because robot do not need mind, soul, consciousness to existing, those aspect isn't necessary for them, they could well lack even concepts or information,

if we going to by your logic, robot is nonexistent, rock is nonexistent, building is nonexistent, a space-time dimension is also nonexistent, etc.......heck there are verse out there with setting that human in the verse do not have soul cause they follow science strictly, is all human in that verse nonexistent???...

What we deduce is nonexistent depend on the target of deduction and what constitute and necessary for their existence, for living being the first thing that make you exist is your body then your soul, mind and consciousness (some verse human do not have soul), for a dimensions what make them exist is the physical dimensional axes that constitute them, not soul, etc........

This logic doesn't work because robots and other purely physical entities do not have a soul / mind / etc by virtue of lacking those ideas to begin with. Not by virtue of them being non-existent.

These two things are different .

One is immunity, and the other is nonexistent physiology

 

[Vietthai96]

This logic doesn't work because robots and other purely physical entities do not have a soul / mind / etc by virtue of lacking those ideas to begin with. Not by virtue of them being non-existent.

These two things are different .

One is immunity, and the other is nonexistent physiology

you just proved my point

if we going to by your logic, robot is nonexistent, rock is nonexistent, building is nonexistent, a space-time dimension is also nonexistent, etc.......heck there are verse out there with setting that human in the verse do not have soul cause they follow science strictly, is all human in that verse nonexistent???...

 

[Phoenks]

What are you talking about? None of what I said supports that.

I just said lacking an aspect and an aspect being "non-existent" are two separate things on the wiki.

Robots and other inanimate physical objects would not be non-existent. They would just have immunities to the manipulation things they lack. This is already the case.

You're being weird

 

[Digital_Franz]

Why exactly would that apply to Type 3 but not the others? I don't understand.

Because as the name says, NEP 1 is material non-existence. A character cannot possess a physical body and say that he is materially non-existent. NEP 2 is like NEP 1 but with the lacks of non-existence.

Makes no sense to me since you can have characters who have NEP for other parts of them.

And that's why they have NEP 3 because they are materially existent but they lack certain aspects like a robot lacks a soul.

 

[Phoenks]

Because as the name says, NEP 1 is material non-existence. A character cannot possess a physical body and say that he is materially non-existent. NEP is like NEP 1 but with the lacks of non-existence.

Are you saying it's because of the name? I mean, okay, I guess? That's not really a good reason to have it be this way though because it doesn't give an option for example if a person has a physical body but their soul has idealistic nonexistence.

I don't even think the "material" in the name is really meant for that reason, though.

And that's why they have NEP 3 because they are materially existent but they lack certain aspects like a robot lacks a soul.

NEP 3 works in that way?

 

[SweetDao]

NEP mean that you lacking things that constitute and necessary for your existence, the first is your body, of course then soul, mind, etc.....

Why does it need to start with the body? Why can't it be any aspect without linking it to the primary surface aspect of a character?

So if you talking about thy lacking physical body is a must then we can look at other thing such as Robot, Robot do not have mind or soul, consciousness, their body is made up the technological parts, so why they not nonexistent, because robot do not need mind, soul, consciousness to existing, those aspect isn't necessary for them, they could well lack even concepts or information,

I mean yeah sure, I don't see your point tho. With your robot example it's not simply "lacking" it's more like "functioning without needing one", so without further information we wouldn't assume a robot has "nonexistent" mind or soul, just that he doesn't have one because it's a being that fundamentally doesn't require one.

Every character on the wiki having NEP and some aspect still do "exist" to some extent. A character having nonexistent concepts still means his concept exist, just that it's more complicated to interact with it.

if we going to by your logic, robot is nonexistent, rock is nonexistent, building is nonexistent, a space-time dimension is also nonexistent, etc.......heck there are verse out there with setting that human in the verse do not have soul cause they follow science strictly, is all human in that verse nonexistent???...

No, they just don't need those aspects of existence to be sustained, which is vastly different.

What we deduce is nonexistent depend on the target of deduction and what constitute and necessary for their existence, for living being the first thing that make you exist is your body then your soul, mind and consciousness (some verse human do not have soul), for a dimensions what make them exist is the physical dimensional axes that constitute them, not soul, etc........

Sure. I don't deny your assertion. What I'm pointing out is that having "non-existent features" shouldn't be limited to a simple hierarchy of physical and metaphysical aspect of a character. Why can't a character have : Body (exist), Mind (nonexistent), soul (exist), concept (exist), history (nonexistent), ...

The above example should still get a certain type of NEP and certain aspects (which ones depend on the description itself) but they shouldn't be "limited" just because "the body is still physical", we don't care about that, we don't take it into account when giving the character NEP. At least, we shouldn't.

 

[CodeCCLL]

you just proved my point

I guess OP basically thinks like that a character non-existent a mind can still think, and a rock can't think, so there's a difference. So of course there is a difference between a supergenius with a non-existent mind and a mindless monster.

So, if you think about how a issue could be in practice, the question is "whether a character who can control the mind of a character with NEP, Aspect Type 3, can use mind manipulation on a mindless rock without feats?".

 

[Digital_Franz]

Are you saying it's because of the name? I mean, okay, I guess?

The ability always reflects the name it has.

That's not really a good reason to have it be this way though because it doesn't give an option for example if a person has a physical body but their soul has idealistic nonexistence.

This will fall into NEP 3 since the character still has a material existence. The trick is really to know: his body is his existence or just a physical materialization (avatar)? If the character exists purely as a soul and is as you said then he will have NEP 2.

I don't even think the "material" in the name is really meant for that reason, though.

That's the whole point with the Material and Spiritual worlds.

NEP 3 works in that way?

As others have said, it's often a question of immunity and yes if a character lacks an essential aspect of his existence like a personal concept for example then yes he will have NEP 3.

 

[Phoenks]

Okay it seems there are more issues I have with this Nonexistence Page than I initially thought. My best bet is probably to talk to an admin about it.

 

[SweetDao]

Okay it seems there are more issues I have with this Nonexistence Page than I initially thought. My best bet is probably to talk to an admin about it.

Back in 2018, there was a "physical nonexistence" which would have cleared up a lot of problems, I'd say.

 

[Digital_Franz]

I just said lacking an aspect and an aspect being "non-existent" are two separate things on the wiki.

Not really. It's the same thing. Just that some verses treat having a non-existent aspect as missing that aspect since it doesn't exist in the first place. It all depends on how each author phrases it.

Robots and other inanimate physical objects would not be non-existent. They would just have immunities to the manipulation things they lack. This is already the case.

Where you are wrong is that a robot does not need a soul in the first place to exist while a human does. A stone does not need a soul to exist but if it behaves like a human and does not have a soul then there should be NEP 3.

 

[KingNanaya]

Just change body to fundamental or distinct aspect and the problem solves itself

 

[Phoenks]

Not really. It's the same thing. Just that some verses treat having a non-existent aspect as missing that aspect since it doesn't exist in the first place. It all depends on how each author phrases it.

I know that's what the page says, but I very much disagree. It's another big problem.

Lacking something completely and something being like a "0" in binary existence are two completely different things.

As said I am just going to try talking to an admin about this. That really doesn't make sense to me.

 

[CodeCCLL]

It's actually not a big deal as it doesn't really affect character pages that already have NEP, just someone needs to create the crt and the staff needs to take action.

 

[Keeweed]

I made a thread on removing type 3 in general, and I really look forward to no longer having a project to continue that because type 3 is so stupid. You shouldn’t get anything for this. Type 3 says you exist (which is moronic for a power about not existing) so you still have a soul, anything that effects souls should still work on it if it can hit this one.

 

[Vietthai96]

What are you talking about? None of what I said supports that.

I just said lacking an aspect and an aspect being "non-existent" are two separate things on the wiki.

Robots and other inanimate physical objects would not be non-existent. They would just have immunities to the manipulation things they lack. This is already the case.

You're being weird

Sorry, i was sleeping when the discussion is going on

Anyway the problem is, you and eh @SweetDao propose that we should have a nonexistent physical aspect and being nonexistent physical isn't hard requirement anymore and as long as you lack an aspect you are nonexistent so i want to point out the problem of it such as case where thing lack those aspect yet isn't nonexistent at all

Back in 2018, there was a "physical nonexistence" which would have cleared up a lot of problems, I'd say.

Back in the old day, Material nonexistent mean you must lack both physical body and soul, mind, consciousness lol. Idealistic Nonexistent mean you lack more than material nonexistent and includes concepts, so being physically nonexistent is always a must even with the old system

 

[SweetDao]

Material nonexistent mean you must lack both physical body and soul, mind, consciousness lol. Idealistic Nonexistent mean you lack more than material nonexistent and includes concepts, so being physically nonexistent is always a must even with the old system

Sure.

Physically nonexistent beings don’t physically exist on the material plane. While they can be thought of and remembered and they may even have a visible, physical form, they cannot be harmed by conventional means due to already being “nonexistent”. Some of these beings may also be intangible or non-corporeal, allowing them to pass through other objects.

Mental Nonexistence: Mentally nonexistent beings cannot be remembered or recorded by any means. While they still possess physical forms and can interact with the physical plane normally, any attempts to retain any knowledge of them will fail after they can no longer be seen or otherwise perceived.

 

[Vietthai96]

Ah, that thing was even older though, but again that system is flawed cause by that logic Incorporeal, Abstract Existence is also Nonexistent, as long as you lack physical form then you are nonexistent

 

[SweetDao]

Ah, that thing was even older though, but again that system is flawed cause by that logic Incorporeal, Abstract Existence is also Nonexistent, as long as you lack physical form then you are nonexistent

I think Phoenks will see if there is a way to somehow change the whole thing, because right now, there is definitely some rewording or changes in the requirement to do, I'd say.