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Question about Narutoverse Jutsu rating

I present two loosely connected topics.

1. As the title states I have a question about how we rate/quantify jutsu. We know that jutsu can create or manipulate the elements.

0120-004
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So for events in which land/fire/water/etc masses are shown being created, why can't they be quantified using E=MC2, calculate the mass and solve for energy? I'm aware that the page on mass-energy suggests we only use it if blatantly stated, but nothing else explains how energy is used to directly create mass and manipulate pre-existing mass. The only problem I can see with this is the large values.

Chakra energy for non-sage users is mental + physical energy as stated in chapter 18. Kage level characters (as shown with the attached images) are capable of creating elements without any of the created elements being around. Yamato created* a waterfall using his earth and water style, then used his wood style to create multiple trees surrounding the waterfall. The second databook stated that Hashirama using his wood style to lay the foundation for Konoha wouldn't be an exaggeration.

2. In chapter 90, Ebisu explains chakra composition, and jutsu.

Physical and mental energy in total is called stamina. This is the basis for ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. Mixing the two beforementioned energies produces chakra.

Taijutsu users generally do not require chakra meaning they also don't need to weave any signs, so the only resource they deplete is stamina.

However, for the other two groups, chakra must be built in order to use jutsu. In Ebisu's next example, we see that stamina is directly used to form chakra. Creating 30% chakra from Naruto's reserves would use 30% of his stamina. Making a shadow clone from this 30% would cost 10% chakra, meaning there's 20% chakra remaining in Naruto's original body. Basically, you can manipulate that 30% of chakra derived from stamina in any way, until it runs out and you need more.

So the point of this is, wouldn't that mean, except for cases such as Onoki having molecular destruction, all chakra formed for jutsu comes directly from their physical capabilities?

In other words, using Pain as an example, since his CT is 6-C+ and was formed by his chakra, that would also mean his physical stats (stamina) have to be equivalent to the chakra he used to perform the jutsu, since we're shown they're directly related.

  • Databook 3 - Doton: Doryuu Jouheki
" The rising earth is changed into a solid rampart!!

[picture of Yamato forming a handseal]
[picture of the ground rising up under Yamato's feet]
The ground itself doesn't just appear out of nowhere. After increasing the volume of earth that much, one is forced to keep down their chakra consumption!!

This technique makes a gigantic rampart rise up beneath the user's feet, by shaping the ground and increasing the amount of earth with chakra. Depending on what the user imagines, the shape of the rampart can be anything from level ground to a steep, needle-like mountain. "

This is my first CRT, be gentle.
 
Are trying to say their physical states should scale to their jutsu?.

That's not always the case and in pretty sure that it's been clearly shown. The third rikages hellstab plowed through his own chest. Pain's Almighty Push on the village was clearly more then he could do physically hell his other bodies past out for a second and he couldn't even use that jutsu for a while. Sasuke's Chidori slightly pierced A's chest but his lightning sword bounced clean off his shoulder.

Naruto's Rasengan did heavy damage to Kabuto yet kid Naruto wouldn't be able to do that much damage with a punch against him. Madara's Susanoo can tank hits from Tsunade but as we know, his body got obliterated by her punch.

Do we scale some jutsu to them, yes. Like the So6P Naruto and Sasuke or Hagamoro and his brother creating the moon, or the Biju's Tailed Beast bombs, and several others.

Can Naruto characters amp themselves with chakra, Yes. Can all of them amp themselves to the level of of the jutsu they preform, No (At lest not everyone).
 
I agree with you, but there's a lot of evidence for either side. Naruto had plenty of rasengans thwarted by Toneri's TSB jutsu while in his 9-tails sage mode form. Yet in that same form with power only applied to his arm, he powered his way through Toneri's moon-splitting attack and one-shot him. Lets go with Ebisu's example.

Let's say A's hellstab costs 20% chakra, thus he's then at 80% stamina, then that would mean he injured himself when he wasn't at full strength, plus is it not normal for one's own attack to affect them? It is also an issue of surface area. It was stated that the less fingers he uses, the more focused the attack.

Pain flattening Konoha is an AoE attack, plus he fought 6-tail Naruto and tanked his bijuu bomb at near point-blank range, granted he was no longer dividing his chakra six ways.

Kabuto was already healing himself before Naruto's rasengan. Granted, the technique is compressed and concentrated while rotating, but it is still just amassed chakra in the purest form. Tsunade already has monster strength, though whether or not that has anything to do with chakra is unknown, but she also trained Sakura to have monster strength of her own, plus her 100 healings jutsu is an additional pool of chakra to amplify her abilities.

Chidori is more like what I'm saying. Guy describes it as a jutsu that narrowly focuses massive amounts of chakra in the dominant hand, while using the speed of the thrust to pierce the enemy. Additionally, Sasuke only attempted to slash Raikage with his sword, he didn't try to drive the tip of the sword straight through him, which would've made more sense. Sasuke barely pierced A's skin anyway, so their power gap was relatively small.
 
What I've said b4 to @TFO is that more chakra = powerful Jutsu in most case but yes there r times when more chakra = more power example when Sasuke absorbed the other Tailed Beasts chakra and his Susanno was stronger then SOSP Kurama Mode Naruto or that Ay's V2 Lightning cloak was stated by Karin to "reach Bijuu lvls" and we know that Tailed Beasts have amazing amount of chakra then there's that 3rd Raikage > Ay and 3rd Raikage heavily injured 8 Tails

So sometimes it goes back and forth w/ one another imo
 
While there are showings of characters being able to tank their own jutsu, most justu are made to be stronger than physical attacks, be it through penetration and other stuff (chidori comes to mind)
 
Short answer is no.

Stamina =\= Equal Physical stats thus, neither does Jutsu scale to it.

@Blackejan

You are simply saying what people already, not bringing up anything new...

  • Having More Chakra/Stamina in your body Inately doesn't equate to being stronger. It means you have the potential to use Stronger Jutsu
  • Pumping more Chakra into Jutsu can make make them stronger.
When it comes to physical stats, there are multiple ways to Vitalize the body to become stronger or Faster.

  • Chakra Control (Chaneling Chakra to parts of your body to increase Speed, Strength, Durability, etc. This is Done by almost everyone at a basic level due to shunshin, but more notible is Tsunade and Sakura and as of The Last, Naruto with his Punch)
  • Taking outside Sources of Energy (SM users use Nature Energy to enter SM and this Inately increases their stats or Infinite Tsukiyomi users)
There are special cases and for these, they don't necessarily fall into the other categories, and these things are

  • Gates Users
  • Jinchuriki
  • Cloak users like Raikage.
For Gate users, Cloak users and Jinchuriki, the chakra boosts given inately increases physical stats. There is no chakra control involved and while technically Biju chakra comes from a separate entity, that entity lays within the host, making it really no different than being a Gate User. It's not an "Outside Source of Energy" like Nature Energy is.

Cloak users, while the chakra is theirs and isn't an outside source, don't use Chakra control to amplify their stats. Once you cloak up, it's already inherently amplified.
 
@TFO

Then how was Sasuke Susanno tanking SOSP Kurama Mode hits the moment he absorbed the chakra from the other tailed beasts?
 
Sasuke's chakra control is on the level or even better than SOSP which is why he was tanking attacks cause he had so much chakra that he could control and enhance his Susanno with
 
Huh? he abosrbed more chakra into the Susanno which Kurama said that hes "turning it into a vessal" so Susanno absorbing Tailed Beasts chakra > SOSP Kurama/Naruto
 
Dude absorbing lots of chakra doesn't always make u stronger

In Sasuke's case he absorbed lots of chakra but he was able to control it and like TFO said that's one of the things that increases physical AP and jutsus
 
susanoo is a proof that chakra doesn't scale to striking strenght.

The susanoo is a chakra construct, the amount of chakra put into it obviously matters. On the other hand, despite having enough chakra to make a susanoo, base sasuke isn't as strong as it is
 
AstralKing7 said:
Dude absorbing lots of chakra doesn't always make u stronger
In Sasuke's case he absorbed lots of chakra but he was able to control it and like TFO said that's one of the things that increases physical AP and jutsus
This is where i have to disagree. Chakra control is a key point in cases yes but Sasuke didnt have to that. His Rinnegan gives him the ability to absorb the Tailed Beast chakra which he is the only person to do this so no chakra control has nothing to do with this when all he juts had to do is absorb it cause of his Rinnegan
 
TheFinalOrder said:
@Blackejan
Bro, you ignored most of my other points...
I meant to say something to u causse i did look at it but now im back. It still doesnt explain that Sasuke (thanks to the RinneSharigan) absorbed the rest of the Tailed Beasts chakra and became even stronger then SOSP Kurama/Naruto
 
Well the second point won't receive much more argument for me, so no it is.

What about point one, chakra energy being used to create mass?
 
Callsign Castle said:
Well the second point won't receive much more argument for me, so no it is.
What about point one, chakra energy being used to create mass?
That one is interesting. The staff may have to discuss that.
 
In which cases should it be used?

Matter-energy conversion should only be used for a calculation if it is clearly stated that this is the progress used.

Why is that?
One of the most important reasons is that it simply produces unrealistic values in virtually all cases. The energy required to do so is so ridiculously high that it is almost never realistic by any means.


Seriously, there is a rule saying that it needs to be stated.
 
We do this for the inFamous verse, particularly Second Son, where we see people getting turned into energy, although its not explicitly stated to be Mass-Energy, at least to my memory.

Also, wouldn't the tailed beasts simply scale above fodder?
 
Notice cuttent. and I am almost sure there are showings of things that acutaly line up with it (lack of anti particles for exemple.)
 
"Notice cuttent." What's this?

And not exactly. In Second Son, they call it "obliteration". Its where you basically kill someone, and turn them into the user's native element. Delsin can turn people into smoke, Fetch can turn people into neon. It isn't explicitly stated but it seems that is what happens.
 
I meant 'current'.

That is far more in line than anything naruto has shown, at most they get downgraded
 
Yes.

That doesn't mean that we can aply to energy matter conversion because it lacks the mechanics of it,
 
That matters not here.

"he did it" logic is fallacious for a reason. But feel free to ask any propre knowledgeble calc group member or naruto knowledgeble member, they will tell you that putting naruto characters to the level where fodders would be mountain level is wank
 
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