PvZ High 8-C+ Removal

[StarShooter80]

If/when the CRT passes the changes won't be applied after grace, that will be saved for a future CRT revamping the verse to a bigger extent.

PvZ1/PvZ2 Baseline Tiers​

The entire basis for the High 8-C+ scaling is upscaling from Ice-shroom's calc of him freezing all the zombies on the lawn, as he's referred as dealing "very light" damage, meanwhile all the other offensive plants have a greater damage rating. But the thing is damage as a term is just the amount of harm done unto the zombies, rather than a in-universe statistic for much potent energy it is, which is wrongfully how we're treating it. A replacement feat for this would be this 9-A+ calc for regular Browncoats. Ice-shroom should still keep his rating though, it should just be instead as "Unknown physically, Large Building level+ via Ice Manipulation".

Cozmic Brainz Feat Removal​

Another thing I want to remove is Cozmic Brainz's black holes' Tier 5 scaling, because it shouldn't qualify. It's said that one way of deducing a black hole is behaving in an impossible manner is being able to physically move it by contact:

But a problem occurs if someone would try to hold a black hole in his hand, to kick it into an other direction, or do something similar.

The Event horizon of a black hole is an intangible phenomenon, so a black hole can not be grabbed by it. One could possibly grab and throw a black hole through the singularity in its center, but because it destroys everything approaching it (as explained in 2) it is practically impossible.

So while moving a black hole by shooting something into it is possible moving it through physical contact is impossible, because it would require an unreachable durability in order to remain whole when doing it.

And that's essentially how Cozmic Brainz's black holes are utilised, it's charged up into his hand and then he can just move it around with him while walking/travelling. So per the black hole feats page this should disqualify it as a realistic black hole. Though do note this doesn't change the tiers of any current characters (as Cozmic Brainz and anyone scaling to him are currently 2-C), it's just the removal of one feat.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

PvZ1/PvZ2 Baseline Tiers​

The entire basis for the High 8-C+ scaling is upscaling from Ice-shroom's calc of him freezing all the zombies on the lawn, as he's referred as dealing "very light" damage, meanwhile all the other offensive plants have a greater damage rating. But the thing is damage as a term is just the amount of harm done unto the zombies, rather than a in-universe statistic for much potent energy it is, which is wrongfully how we're treating it. A replacement feat for this would be this 9-A+ calc for regular Browncoats. Ice-shroom should still keep his rating though, it should just be instead as "Unknown physically, Large Building level+ via Ice Manipulation".

wouldn't they scale to said damage as in the pvz plant ur path novel its outright stated that it full on sent out a ice blast freezing all zombies around it on top of it rating to how much damage the plants do in general to the zombies.

Cozmic Brainz Feat Removal​

Another thing I want to remove is Cozmic Brainz's black holes' Tier 5 scaling, because it shouldn't qualify. It's said that one way of deducing a black hole is behaving in an impossible manner is being able to physically move it by contact:

And that's essentially how Cozmic Brainz's black holes are utilised, it's charged up into his hand and then he can just move it around with him while walking/travelling. So per the black hole feats page this should disqualify it as a realistic black hole. Though do note this doesn't change the tiers of any current characters (as Cozmic Brainz and anyone scaling to him are currently 2-C), it's just the removal of one feat.

cosmic brainzs black holes has a warping effect and functions similar to other black holes in the franchise through this rather can be explained by the galactic bracelets allowing him to hold them or the zombies non physical interaction in general helping them do this(something they have on their own profile allowing them to interact with intangible things which the page describes as the reason they can't be physically interacted with).

 

[StarShooter80]

wouldn't they scale to said damage as in the pvz plant ur path novel its outright stated that it full on sent out a ice blast freezing all zombies around it on top of it rating to how much damage the plants do in general to the zombies.

I don't know what you're trying to say here, what does it stating that it sends out an freezing blast have to do with my point here?

cosmic brainzs black holes has a warping effect and functions similar to other black holes in the franchise through this rather can be explained by the galactic bracelets allowing him to hold them or the zombies non physical interaction in general helping them do this(something they have on their own profile allowing them to interact with intangible things which the page describes as the reason they can't be physically interacted with).

The description galactic bracelets don't imply this whatsoever. And there's different forms of intangility, just because the zombies can interact with light that does not mean they can interact with all other intangible objects.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

I don't know what you're trying to say here, what does it stating that it sends out an freezing blast have to do with my point here?

as the blast would have all of that power in general and is what being described as weak not the damage it does to zombies?

The description galactic bracelets don't imply this whatsoever.

its the thing that allows him to create said black holes and channel said power so it isn't going against canon

And there's different forms of intangility, just because the zombies can interact with light that does not mean they can interact with all other intangible objects.

that doesn't disprove my point as that would rather just imply that the zombies can interact with black holes physically similar to how they can interact with light and now beings of pure code(the abilities was accepted by 2 mods and one adimn) then being described as a anti feat.

 

[StarShooter80]

as the blast would have all of that power in general and is what being described as weak not the damage it does to zombies?

How does this scan referring to it as an ice blast have to do with anything, and yes damage by the literal term means how much harm is done unto the zombies

its the thing that allows him to create said black holes and channel said power so it isn't going against canon

I didn't say anything about canon?

that doesn't disprove my point as that would rather just imply that the zombies can interact with black holes physically similar to how they can interact with light and now beings of pure code(the abilities was accepted by 2 mods and one adimn) then being described as a anti feat.

It does disprove your point actually those are different forms of intangibility. Bieng able to interact with code and light does not, at all, mean that any other thing is up in the air now.

Also again the issue isn't just the mere interaction with it it's being able to move it around with just physical contact. No headcanon done with bracelets will disprove otherwise.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

How does this scan referring to it as an ice blast have to do with anything,

as the blast is what doing said damage

and yes damage by the literal term means how much harm is done unto the zombies

i dont't think this stated anywhere in pvz 1 or 2 and its just describing the damage that it does in general

I didn't say anything about canon?

i mean't how its being described

It does disprove your point actually those are different forms of intangibility. Bieng able to interact with code and light does not, at all, mean that any other thing is up in the air now.

the difference is that this can count as another nonphysical interaction feat for the zombies added in that black holes fall under non physical or energy interaction which are things the zombies already have now

Also again the issue isn't just the mere interaction with it it's being able to move it around with just physical contact. No headcanon done with bracelets will disprove otherwise.

it isn't a headcanon when the bracelets are the reason he can even do this in the first place and gives the power channel the energy to create black holes

 

[StarShooter80]

as the blast is what doing said damage

And? It's still a freeze attack that doesn't change anything

i dont't think this stated anywhere in pvz 1 or 2 and its just describing the damage that it does in general

That's what the word means why shouldn't we interpret it as such

the difference is that this can count as another nonphysical interaction feat for the zombies added in that black holes fall under non physical or energy interaction which are things the zombies already have now

it isn't a headcanon when the bracelets are the reason he can even do this in the first place and gives the power channel the energy to create black holes

What proof is there that the bracelets are the reason that he can do this? All it implies is that it gives him his standard powers of shooting energy shots and creating black holes, nothing about granting him the ability to move around black holes via contact. The point it that the black holes behave unrealistically as they cannot be moved around through physical contact. That is verbatim the standards for it and saying otherwise without an actual explanation given by the franchise goes against that.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

And? It's still a freeze attack that doesn't change anything
That's what the word means why shouldn't we interpret it as such

that would also count as headcanon by ur own logic and its easier to interpret as the alamac referring to it overall power/damage it blast does rather than the damage it do to zombies?

this feels like a argument from belief and then lack of proof as you also need to prove that as nothing in game implies this in anyway.

What proof is there that the bracelets are the reason that he can do this? All it implies is that it gives him his standard powers of shooting energy shots and creating black holes, nothing about granting him the ability to move around black holes via contact. The point it that the black holes behave unrealistically as they cannot be moved around through physical contact. That is verbatim the standards for it and saying otherwise without an actual explanation given by the franchise goes against that.

because its probably isn't by physical contract but him just holding thew bracelets on top of the hand "black hole" probably not even being a black holes compared to the black hole he creates by punching the plants/gnomes with his charged level 3 bracelets(when it kills them) as that is only described as being a black hole compared to how the "one" hes holding isn't and is more likely cosmic brainzs just channeling all of the energy from the bracelet to just create black holes as it in general just channels cosmic energy similar to how he shoots the same energy the "hand black hole" is made out of.

 

[StarShooter80]

that would also count as headcanon by ur own logic and its easier to interpret as the alamac referring to it overall power/damage it blast does rather than the damage it do to zombies?

this feels like a argument from belief and then lack of proof as you also need to prove that as nothing in game implies this in anyway.

?? That is quite literally what the word means what are you on about? If the stat was refferred to as potency, or power, then that would be fine, but damage by its literal definition is the degree of harm done unto another thing.

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

?? That is quite literally what the word means what are you on about? If the stat was refferred to as potency, or power, then that would be fine, but damage by its literal definition is the degree of harm done unto another thing.

damage refers to potency and power in general? even ur own definition of it is quite frankly just potency like for example if i am capable of damaging a door to destroy it then thats pontency

 

[StarShooter80]

damage refers to potency and power in general? even ur own definition of it is quite frankly just potency like for example if i am capable of damaging a door to destroy it then thats pontency

The definitions are blatantly different potency is the strength of the output, damage is the harm resulted in said output, they're similar in a way but not the same words

 

[Plants_vs_zombies_fan101]

The definitions are blatantly different potency is the strength of the output, damage is the harm resulted in said output, they're similar in a way but not the same words

they are literally basically the same thing and can mean the same expect meaning or even each other

this feels like ur more likely just reaching or overthinking it quite a bit

 

[TheOrangeGuy09]

Technically he will do same amount of damage regardless of how many zombies there are.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

The definitions are blatantly different potency is the strength of the output, damage is the harm resulted in said output, they're similar in a way but not the same words

The damage something does is determined by the potency of the output, more damage = more potency needed for that. The reason the Ice-Shroom deals low damage is because its potency is lower than the other offensive plants, meanwhile the other offensive plants deal more damage because their potency is higher, there’s really nothing to overthink, that's how potency and damage work

Exceptions would be things that have potency but no direct damage at all like storms, but ice-shroom does damage just very light.

 

[StarShooter80]

they are literally basically the same thing and can mean the same expect meaning or even each other

this feels like ur more likely just reaching or overthinking it quite a bit

It really is not and it's not hard to comprehend nor is it reaching

The damage something does is determined by the potency of the output, more damage = more potency needed for that. The reason the Ice-Shroom deals low damage is because its potency is lower than the other offensive plants, meanwhile the other offensive plants deal more damage because their potency is higher, there’s really nothing to overthink, that's how potency and damage work

Exceptions would be things that have potency but no direct damage at all like storms, but ice-shroom does damage just very light.

Most of the time you can make this case but an issue occurs when you try to do the same with freezing/heat based attacks, where it's about what levels of temperatures the zombies can withstand/resist rather than a normal projectile or punch.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Most of the time you can make this case but an issue occurs when you try to do the same with freezing/heat based attacks, where it's about what levels of temperatures the zombies can withstand/resist rather than a normal projectile or punch.

Surviving temperature based attacks also counts as normal durability, we have calcs for surviving the heat of the sun for example.

But this is not just about the zombies surviving, it's also about the other offensive plants having higher damage than ice-shroom which obvious make them have higher potency since to do more damage they need to have more potency otherwise they attacks would be doing less damage than ice-shroom. Ice-shroom also it's not portrayed as a plant that it's above all the others in terms of potency, it's literally stated to do weak damage and to do weak damage you need to have weak potency, Ice-shroom is just dangerous because freeze otherwise is weak.

 

[AyOgUyS]

Surviving temperature based attacks also counts as normal durability, we have calcs for surviving the heat of the sun for example.

But this is not just about the zombies surviving, it's also about the other offensive plants having higher damage than ice-shroom which obvious make them have higher potency since to do more damage they need to have more potency otherwise they attacks would be doing less damage than ice-shroom. Ice-shroom also it's not portrayed as a plant that it's above all the others in terms of potency, it's literally stated to do weak damage and to do weak damage you need to have weak potency, Ice-shroom is just dangerous because freeze otherwise is weak.

The word is not potency or power. It's damage. "Very light" is not describing the actual energy required to perform the freezing. "Very light" is describing the amount of damage the zombies are taking.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

The word is not potency or power. It's damage. "Very light" is not describing the actual energy required to perform the freezing. "Very light" is describing the amount of damage the zombies are taking.

Uh, I never said otherwise

Yeah it's stated to do very light damage, and to do damage you need to have potency and if you potency is weak then the damage the others take from that will be also weak, it don't need to say the word potency to know that if something takes "very light" damage is because something is attacking them with "very light" potency

 

[AyOgUyS]

Yeah it's stated to do very light damage, and to do damage you need to have potency and if you potency is weak then the damage the others take from that will be also weak, it don't need to say the word potency to know that if something takes "very light" damage is because something is attacking them with "very light" potency

Not necessarily. A bolt of lightning for example can carry a Tier 8 amount of joules but when it hits a person, not all of that energy is being channeled into said person's body. It's the same situation here. The freezing is Tier 8 via the blast encompassing the whole screen but not all of that Tier 8 energy is hitting the zombies. Freezing attacks in general in fiction don't tend to do a lot of actual damage. For example a ice blast may freeze a city with Tier 7 energy but it doesn't actually do that much physical damage to the buildings.

 

[StarShooter80]

Surviving temperature based attacks also counts as normal durability, we have calcs for surviving the heat of the sun for example.

Just because we have instances on the wiki of scaling heat feats to durability, that does not mean its correct, nor is that the norm. Heat feats are primarily just based on the specific heat capacity of someone, not how many joules of energy they can tank in a hit. We've had past threads revolving around the topic before and have come to the same conclusion.

But this is not just about the zombies surviving, it's also about the other offensive plants having higher damage than ice-shroom which obvious make them have higher potency since to do more damage they need to have more potency otherwise they attacks would be doing less damage than ice-shroom. Ice-shroom also it's not portrayed as a plant that it's above all the others in terms of potency, it's literally stated to do weak damage and to do weak damage you need to have weak potency, Ice-shroom is just dangerous because freeze otherwise is weak.

Except it is just about zombies surviving. Again damage is harm done unto someone, not the actual potency of the attack, you could make the case for damage relating to a character's potency for regular attacks but not temperature based ones. As I've said several times now.

 

[Speedblitzer50]

Not necessarily. A bolt of lightning for example can carry a Tier 8 amount of joules but when it hits a person, not all of that energy is being channeled into said person's body. It's the same situation here. The freezing is Tier 8 via the blast encompassing the whole screen but not all of that Tier 8 energy is hitting the zombies. Freezing attacks in general in fiction don't tend to do a lot of actual damage. For example a ice blast may freeze a city with Tier 7 energy but it doesn't actually do that much physical damage to the buildings.

You have proof that not all the tier 8 energy is hitting the zombies? The zombies can tank it literally right next to the ice-shroom, is different than a bolt of lighting that comes from the clouds. Also it's not always true that freeze attacks in fiction don't tend to do much damage, there are many games where freeze attacks both freeze and do a lot of damage, just like Pokémon ice type attacks or ice spells in Final Fantasy.

Just because we have instances on the wiki of scaling heat feats to durability, that does not mean its correct, nor is that the norm. Heat feats are primarily just based on the specific heat capacity of someone, not how many joules of energy they can tank in a hit. We've had past threads revolving around the topic before and have come to the same conclusion.

Can you please link the threads were that was accepted? Because it contradicts what actually is in the common feats page.

Except it is just about zombies surviving. Again damage is harm done unto someone, not the actual potency of the attack, you could make the case for damage relating to a character's potency for regular attacks but not temperature based ones. As I've said several times now.

I didn't say that damage and potency are the same, I know the difference, I'm saying that to do more damage to someone you need to have more potency to be capable of well.. doing damage, like if you punch someone face without applyng potency you will not do damage, therefore a plant being stated to do more damage to the zombies than ice-shroom is because it apply more potency than ice-shroom that's why is not just about the zombies surviving the freeze, but this don't mean that potency and damage are the exact same thing, think in a gun you need to have bullets to shoot for that don't mean the gun and the bullets are the same thing.

But because you said this can not be the case in temperature based attacks despite the fact we have accepted calcs for that, I would wait for you to link the threads were that was accepted, please.