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Project Moon Discussion 2

Working on a Salvador Page. Anything I'm missing in particular? Don't think he gets resistances from any E.G.O. if memory serves right as I don't think we've had a Realization at this point.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Draft for Pages

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
 
Vergilius is a fraud because the writers hate his ass, bro never wins or does anything cool.
 
CurrySenpai said:
I did, and I still think he's a fraud.

"Oooooh no Faust, these Rat level enemies are too strong.... need to manifest muh ego....."
Click to expand...
The Peccatula we were fighting were barely feasible tho
Like, I was doing fine bc I had the best team for that area (a pretty well rounded Sinking team), but that's it.
 
Since we're also using Librarian pages judging from the Xiao page, got to admit some of them are a bit tricky in application.

Unstable Page of the Crying Children - Keypages

tiphereth.zasz.su tiphereth.zasz.su

Unstable Book of the Crying Children - Books

tiphereth.zasz.su tiphereth.zasz.su

This one is a particularly weird one. Name is the "Unstable Page of the Crying Children" and the icon matches up. However everything else matches up with the Waxen Pinion mode of Philip (and Dawnclair). From the passives and combat pages to even the skin.

Urban Nightmare Kim has some interesting Limbus implications since he's Urban Nightmare. Not unreasonable since we can take on the Middle equivalent to Index Proselytes.

If you add the two together with Walpurgisnacht canonically taking place after we fight Kim, you can make the argument that Imperfect Ego Philip would be end Urban Nightmare tier. That has some issues with Urban Plague though... I guess you could argue tier 8 starts earlier?

We also get Section 3 Books around Urban Nightmare and that's the same point we've entered in Limbus Canto VI (and post).

Edit: Guess you could also mention the fight goes unfinished due to Oscar's teleporter.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Working on a Salvador Page. Anything I'm missing in particular? Don't think he gets resistances from any E.G.O. if memory serves right as I don't think we've had a Realization at this point.
Click to expand...

Salvador doesn't really have 8-B scaling. He probably was when he was younger, but he's described as washed up and focusing more on family life than fixer life nowadays, so I was gonna keep him and Oscar 9-A. The scaling aid was for people who may be a grade 3 fixer with no further context, but the four grade 3s we have so far aren't that. Was going to do Salvador and Oscar at 9-A, Mei and Ezra at 8-B (Ezra's E.G.O. at the splitter I guess due to Vespa) and then future 3s we use context and make them 9-A/8-B splitter if we don't have any.

I will note that there's some stuff we should get calced for the 9-As that we don't yet, which was also why I did Xiao before Yujin despite finishing most of Yujin in my own sandbox. For speed we still have bullet deflection from Full-Stop, it's just not going to involve crazy proselyte movement. For lifting strength we've got the Canto 5 part in Limbus where they throw hooks at a pirate ship and just pull it over to themselves. Resistance wise, it's stuff up to or below that row in game progression.

Tyranno223 said:
Since we're also using Librarian pages judging from the Xiao page, got to admit some of them are a bit tricky in application.

Unstable Page of the Crying Children - Keypages

tiphereth.zasz.su tiphereth.zasz.su

Unstable Book of the Crying Children - Books

tiphereth.zasz.su tiphereth.zasz.su
This one is a particularly weird one. Name is the "Unstable Page of the Crying Children" and the icon matches up. However everything else matches up with the Waxen Pinion mode of Philip (and Dawnclair). From the passives and combat pages to even the skin.
Click to expand...
He just isn't killed till he's a distortion. The player page is his partial ego, and I'm not even really sure how we should tier crying children 1 in the first place tbh. Maybe CC1 as a 9-A/8-B splitter, and then saying that the version that fought Xiao and friends is more in line with Reverb Philip since that is after most of CC1 was booked and he reformed solely as one aspect?

Tyranno223 said:
Urban Nightmare Kim has some interesting Limbus implications since he's Urban Nightmare. Not unreasonable since we can take on the Middle equivalent to Index Proselytes.
Click to expand...
Bamboo Kim in his prime apparently being one of the strongest swordsmen in all of S Corp. genuinely puts him up there with the Xiao style "Super Grade 1s" as his floor, but by the time he became Bamboo Kim he's clearly not that anymore. I think I'd like to see how some of these future chapters end up but if grade 3 enemies start showing up in Don's I wouldn't find a splitter for his partial distortion too out of wack.

Tyranno223 said:
We also get Section 3 Books around Urban Nightmare and that's the same point we've entered in Limbus Canto VI (and post).
Click to expand...
I feel section scaling is a bit trickier than grade scaling because the differences in association matter more there, also I believe the only section 3 that we've seen outside of Limbus was Hana Association which clearly isn't really a normal one.


Currently working on fixing the Rabbit Team page (CRT soon, I really just have to remove some stuff from Myo) and making an Iori page.
 
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Wokistan said:
Salvador doesn't really have 8-B scaling. He probably was when he was younger, but he's described as washed up and focusing more on family life than fixer life nowadays, so I was gonna keep him and Oscar 9-A. The scaling aid was for people who may be a grade 3 fixer with no further context, but the four grade 3s we have so far aren't that. Was going to do Salvador and Oscar at 9-A, Mei and Ezra at 8-B (Ezra's E.G.O. at the splitter I guess due to Vespa) and then future 3s we use context and make them 9-A/8-B splitter if we don't have any.
Click to expand...
I got rid of the tier 8 stuff a while back. Mostly just concerned about abilities and speed.

(Shame his "prime" self hasn't shown up much. Artbook makes it sound like it'd be a fun story).

Wokistan said:
He just isn't killed till he's a distortion. The player page is his partial ego, and I'm not even really sure how we should tier crying children 1 in the first place tbh. Maybe CC1 as a 9-A/8-B splitter, and then saying that the version that fought Xiao and friends is more in line with Reverb Philip since that is after most of CC1 was booked and he reformed solely as one aspect?
Click to expand...
The one who fought Xiao was very much still in his basic Crying Children state. He wouldn't have undergone any change until meeting Argalia. I'd say Urban Nightmare is a good point to bring in "possibly" tier 8s since that's when Star of the City grunts start showing up like Index Proselytes (and they shouldn't be much different from their later counterparts who can kill tier 8 characters, albeit with difficulties).

Main reason I brought up the Librarian pages is because we have our Librarians using the Waxen Pinion version of Philip with that Page (with all the passives, combat pages, and even art id) and that should be up useful to the Library until at least the first row of Stars of the City.

Tbf, Philip is already injured when we go into the fight with him in Urban Plague (minus 60 hp from his full 300) so there's some leeway with giving him Urban Nightmare stats.

Wokistan said:
Bamboo Kim in his prime apparently being one of the strongest swordsmen in all of S Corp. genuinely puts him up there with the Xiao style "Super Grade 1s" as his floor, but by the time he became Bamboo Kim he's clearly not that anymore. I think I'd like to see how some of these future chapters end up but if grade 3 enemies start showing up in Don's I wouldn't find a splitter for his partial distortion too out of wack.
Click to expand...
Bamboo Kim is out of his prime already by LoR he was already reduced to an Urban Nightmare level of difficulty for the Library. Limbus Kim is directly from that point of his life (albeit partly distorted) character in Canto 6 and Walpurgisnacht 3 should thus be somewhat comparable at least to that point.

That plus we also fought our first basic Finger foes in Canto 5 at that point and they too showed up around Urban Nightmare.
 
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Approve my right to fix the outdated Rabbit profile and make sure I didn't accidentally leave Myo specific things on there please

Also, because it's a bit more appropriate here than that thread, in the spoiler I've put what I was envisioning for the scaling on SOTC+Impurity. Feel free to share your thoughts
Hana
Olivier: 8-A (Scales to Roland)
Mirinae, Harold: At least 8-B, likely 8-A (Hana grade 1s at the very end of the game, keypages made for reverb)

Index
Yan: 8-B as a messenger, 8-A distorted (messengers=capos=grade 1s and distorted yan is same rung as Iori)
Proxies: At least 8-B, likely 8-A (Argalia notes that they could hurt him, even if he'd win. Considered way too strong for the capos to handle)
Proselytes: Not sure.

Thumb
Kalo: At least 8-B, likely 8-A (Sottocapo=Proxy, also gold keypage)
Capos: 8-B (Equivalent to grade 1s, those specific 3 were noted as "competent capos" by Hana)
Soldato: Not sure.

Color Fixers
Iori: 8-A (Color Fixer)
Gebura: 8-A (Color Fixer)
Argalia: 8-A (Color Fixer)
Gear worshippers: Not sure, probably pretty variable.

Liu
Xiao: At least 8-B, likely 8-A, 8-A with EGO, see her page.
Miris: I don't even know, he's randomly really jacked in his last fight despite being close to dying, need a way to explain that outside of game mechanics
Chun: 8-B (Fighting alongside and against 8-Bs, Grade 2 fixer)
Lowell: 8-B (Grade 1 fixer, though I could buy an argument for him to be a splitter based off him being a section 2 director and gold keypage, need to hash this out)
Cecil: 8-B (Grade 2 fixer)
Mei: 8-B (Fights 8-Bs)

R Corp.
Captains: At least 8-B, likely 8-A (See Myo's profile, Nikolai's Disposal would be 8-A flat)
Generic soldiers: 8-B (Based on their more concrete feats, as we already know they can punch above their weight in groups. Could buy an argument for Rhinos to default to splitters based on them being way too destructive for Lobotomy Corp, but eh.)

Cane Office
All 3 of them as 8-Bs (Grade 1s and 2s, no real feat of punching up at an 8-A and instead we get the opposite [though tbf it's Pluto], Nemo is a gold keypage but personally not super sold on the splitter for him atm)

General invitations at a flat 8-B unless we get more context for any of them in Limbus.

People may disagree with aspects of this and that's fine, it's not set in stone or anything. Also note that I wasn't planning to have all the Reverb guys as flat 8-A.

Reverb
8-As: Argalia (Color fixer), Elena (Fought 2 color fixers, fights the Binah floor), Zombie Vermillion Cross (Zombie Color Fixer), Pluto's barriers (Traps Iori, invincible), Tanya (Explicitly as strong as Gebura), Greta (She's 1/8 of a Star of the City level threat before distorting, doesn't use allies, has an instakill), merged Phillip (Blazing Strike's compared to Great Split Vertical even for half ego, when he's merged he doesn't use allies)

At least 8-B, likely 8-A: Pluto's AP (Very hax reliant, summons), Puppetman (summons), Oswald (summons), Bremen (summons), Eileen (summons), Non merged Philip (there's like 5 of him, the smaller angels are obviously weaker individually than the huge one)
 
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Minor thing to add to my "Possibly" tier 8 Index Proselytes suggestion but LJH's Developer Notes consider them to be the first of the "stronger" characters (such that they mark the point where blur effects become default)
 
It's on optional equipment for a reason
 
I remember something like that in the artbook but for whatever reason my desktop doesn't seem to like opening the artbook today, do you have a screenshot?
 
Wokistan said:
I remember something like that in the artbook but for whatever reason my desktop doesn't seem to like opening the artbook today, do you have a screenshot?
Click to expand...
Sure.

It matches up pretty well since that's when we get characters who can combat Star of the City (LoR) characters for an extended period like the Crying Children vs Liu Section 1 or the Proselytes themselves against a Library which has beaten Thumb Capos.

Plus Limbus began fighting Urban Nightmare (LoR) level foes around Canto 5 and that was when the Middle counterpart to Proselytes first showed up.
 
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Since we're set to have the ring's proselyte equivalent start to show up soon, I think I'd want to see how those guys fare and re-read Distortion Detective to see how well the Soldatos did against Ezra to get a better idea, though I'd also like to see what others think.
 
Wokistan said:
Since we're set to have the ring's proselyte equivalent start to show up soon, I think I'd want to see how those guys fare and re-read Distortion Detective to see how well the Soldatos did against Ezra to get a better idea, though I'd also like to see what others think.
Click to expand...
She was able to one-shot an immobilised Soldato with a hammer strike to the head. A healthy one was able to dodge her though and even retaliate though. Minus the one Soldato Ezra got, it was more or less a stalemate until the Distortion helped out.

They seem to be in a comparable range to Ezra, albeit weaker individually. At the very least Moses was unable to harm them with her level of Red damage.
 
I could see just saying that the lowest rank of the fingers varies, lemme consolidate all of what I'm aware of being around
  • Artbook uses Proselytes as the first part where "all enemies are strong"
  • Soldatos in SoTC
  • Proselytes in SoTC with the Proxies
  • DD Soldatos being able to harm Ezra, while clearly being below her in that she can one shot them if she can land a solid hit with a weapon to the head (She killed 4), still being beyond what Moses can do as a grade 5 or with less extreme applications of her EGO despite Moses still having the skills of a 1
  • Fingers as a whole being a big deal, even the lowest rungs
  • Nelly, a "high grade fixer" (3 fits that description) being as strong as higher end Pointillists
For Proselytes/Soldatos/Pointillists/Little Brothers and Sisters/whatever the pinky equivalent is I could see "varies from 9-A to 8-B" because of this. As for the other things in star, where I'm sitting atm:
  • Sweepers: 9-A, they were only really an issue to Vespa and Ezra due to them already being exhausted and their sheer numbers. We know that the sweepers get obliterated by the likes of Gloria, Jae-Heon, Tanya, and Gebura, and Vespa's on a similar level to those first two. I don't think there's much reason to give them an 8-B end at the moment.
  • Shi Association: 9-A for the exhausted and injured versions, 8-B to 8-A splitter for healthy Yujin (It's in my sandbox but the main thing is that she's normally in circles with guys like Roland and Xiao, though her theoretical stats don't hurt this notion either), 8-A boundary either way due to it being stronger than Roland's pistol as per Leviathan.
  • Gay Clowns: 9-A, they just don't really have higher scaling.
  • Puppets: 9-A, same reason.
  • WARP Crew: Not totally sure when it comes to the corporate employees, this is one I want to wait on Limbus to flesh out a bit since they're more involved there.
  • Crying Children 1: I'm fine with 8-B. It's by far the longest fight to that point and the remnants of CC1 go and tear up a nest and then doesn't instantly die to Xiao and Section 1 of Liu.
  • Smiling Faces: 9-A. Ezra said they're not a tough fight in comparison to the Soldatos and Capo, and they don't really have scaling. I don't think we can assume Thelma's a grade 1 and even if we did it was Argalia who captured him anyways, and he only really gave Thelma to the Smiling Faces because he wanted Thelma tortured to death.
  • Proselytes: Varies from 9-A to 8-B, that's what the rest of this message was about
If anyone's got info I'm missing I'd be glad to hear it.
 
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Wokistan said:
I could see just saying that the lowest rank of the fingers varies, lemme consolidate all of what I'm aware of being around
  • Artbook uses Proselytes as the first part where "all enemies are strong"
  • Soldatos in SoTC
  • Proselytes in SoTC with the Proxies
  • DD Soldatos being able to harm Ezra, while clearly being below her in that she can one shot them if she can land a solid hit with a weapon to the head (She killed 4), still being beyond what Moses can do as a grade 5 or with less extreme applications of her EGO despite Moses still having the skills of a 1
  • Fingers as a whole being a big deal, even the lowest rungs
  • Nelly, a "high grade fixer" (3 fits that description) being as strong as higher end Pointillists
For Proselytes/Soldatos/Pointillists/Little Brothers and Sisters/whatever the pinky equivalent is I could see "varies from 9-A to 8-B" because of this. As for the other things in star, where I'm sitting atm:
  • Sweepers: 9-A, they were only really an issue to Vespa and Ezra due to them already being exhausted and their sheer numbers. We know that the sweepers get obliterated by the likes of Gloria, Jae-Heon, Tanya, and Gebura, and Vespa's on a similar level to those first two. I don't think there's much reason to give them an 8-B end at the moment.
  • Shi Association: 9-A for the exhausted and injured versions, 8-B to 8-A splitter for healthy Yujin, 8-A boundary either way due to it being stronger than Roland's pistol as per Leviathan.
  • Gay Clowns: 9-A, they just don't really have higher scaling.
  • Puppets: 9-A, same reason.
  • WARP Crew: Not totally sure when it comes to the corporate employees, this is one I want to wait on Limbus to flesh out a bit since they're more involved there.
  • Crying Children 1: I'm fine with 8-B. It's by far the longest fight to that point and the remnants of CC1 go and tear up a nest and then doesn't instantly die to Xiao and Section 1 of Liu.
  • Smiling Faces: 9-A. Ezra said they're not a tough fight in comparison to the Soldatos and Capo, and they don't really have scaling. I don't think we can assume Thelma's a grade 1 and even if we did it was Argalia who captured him anyways, and he only really gave Thelma to the Smiling Faces because he wanted Thelma tortured to death.
  • Proselytes: Varies from 9-A to 8-B, that's what the rest of this message was about
If anyone's got info I'm missing I'd be glad to hear it.
Click to expand...
I'm more or less in agreement. Though High grade Fixer seems to start from 5 or 4 judging from the Artbook comments on Dawn Office. I think Walpurgisnacht 3 and a revisit of some of the LoR "Pages" has given me some thoughts about Philip, but I'll save that for a future post.

Btw, I was actually having a look at the WARP crew in LoR's Artbook and there's mention of this. Could be handy for Siegfried if we ever get to him.
 
Siegfried would be an 8-A via Roland having him on that "strongest fixers in the city" list which was not just all colors (but indigo elder was on there too so we know he didn't just forget about them) but who knows if he'll show up again and make someone want to bother giving him a profile.
 
Wokistan said:
Siegfried would be an 8-A via Roland having him on that "strongest fixers in the city" list which was not just all colors (but indigo elder was on there too so we know he didn't just forget about them) but who knows if he'll show up again and make someone want to bother giving him a profile.
Click to expand...
Yeah, but it's at least some nice additional justification for him. I think Indigo probably just hadn't received a colour yet since it's mentioned in Canto V that it was a relatively recent development.
 
Scaling seems fine, but we really don't know enough about Siegfried to make a profile for him yet. Hope he appears again.
 
Regarding Philip's E.G.O., I've more or less dropped my prior arguments and agree "at least 9-A" is fine at base.

However, all forms of Philip vary in strength in regards to their "passion"/emotion. Crying Children and Waxen Pinion are the most obvious examples of this. The former powers up and uses more powerful flaming attacks as his passion ignites while the latter goes from defensive to offensive.

In his defensive form, Waxen Pinion pretty much only takes chip damage from Librarians at Urban Plague. It's only if his stagger breaks that meaningful damage really takes place. Nothing extreme here, I personally think he should just be Varies from "at least 9-A" to "likely higher".

His offensive mode is more interesting. With Walpurgisnacht 3, we can canonically place Philip's E.G.O. as being comparable to characters from Canto 6, aka post Canto 5.5 when Kim showed up. Kim's ID is implied to be pre-Ruina judging from the other BL ID uptie stories and so should at least be comparable to his LoR self (note, this doesn't mean all Canto 6 IDs are above Kim, but that at least the 000 are comparable enough). His LoR self being from the end of Urban Nightmare.

Waxen Pinion Philip's ID is a glass cannon but is still very much usable for Sinners at this stage. I think it's worth putting his AP at varies from "at least 9-A" to "8-B" (or whatever we decide Kim to be) depending on passion. Afterall, his LoR bossfight sees his offensive ability rise with his passion until he even gets access to Blazing Strike. His durability is relatively lacking, especially in his offensive mode, making it reasonable enough for him to be beatable at Urban Plague.

Also, in LoR, he starts the battle injured with 60 hp missing and is teleported out with dialogue and the Circus dialogue implying he still had enough energy and strength left to keep fighting. You could even argue that he wasn't even properly beaten at Urban Plague.

Of course, there's also the fact we get E.G.O. Philip's page to use at the end of Urban Nightmare meaning his should be usable at the beginning of Star of the City at least.
 
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Tyranno223 said:
Regarding Philip's E.G.O., I've more or less dropped my prior arguments and agree "at least 9-A" is fine at base.

However, all forms of Philip vary in strength in regards to their "passion"/emotion. Crying Children and Waxen Pinion are the most obvious examples of this. The former powers up and uses more powerful flaming attacks as his passion ignites while the latter goes from defensive to offensive.

In his defensive form, Waxen Pinion pretty much only takes chip damage from Librarians at Urban Plague. It's only if his stagger breaks that meaningful damage really takes place. Nothing extreme here, I personally think he should just be Varies from "at least 9-A" to "likely higher".

His offensive mode is more interesting. With Walpurgisnacht 3, we can canonically place Philip's E.G.O. as being comparable to characters from Canto 6, aka post Canto 5.5 when Kim showed up. Kim's ID is implied to be pre-Ruina judging from the other BL ID uptie stories and so should at least be comparable to his LoR self (note, this doesn't mean all Canto 6 IDs are above Kim, but that at least the 000 are comparable enough). His LoR self being from the end of Urban Nightmare.

Waxen Pinion Philip's ID is a glass cannon but is still very much usable for Sinners at this stage. I think it's worth putting his AP at varies from "at least 9-A" to "8-B" (or whatever we decide Kim to be) depending on passion. Afterall, his LoR bossfight sees his offensive ability rise with his passion until he even gets access to Blazing Strike. His durability is relatively lacking, especially in his offensive mode, making it reasonable enough for him to be beatable at Urban Plague.

Also, in LoR, he starts the battle injured with 60 hp missing and is teleported out with dialogue and the Circus dialogue implying he still had enough energy and strength left to keep fighting. You could even argue that he wasn't even properly beaten at Urban Plague.

Of course, there's also the fact we get E.G.O. Philip's page to use at the end of Urban Nightmare meaning his should be usable at the beginning of Star of the City at least.
Click to expand...
Shouldn't we consider Limbus Kim to be stronger than Ruina Kim, BTW? Since that's a distortion and distortions are generally stronger than base.
BTW, are we really scaling Grade 9 Fixers to 9-A when some of them are unenhanced? Like, there is an unaugmented Grade 8 Fixer, and while she's considered an idiot, the fact she can at all perform on a Grade 8 level means that Grade 9s and 8s should not be too superhuman. I'd start the 9-A scaling at Grade 7 on a bare minimum.
Not discounting the feat for Philip, he's definitely at least 9-A. I'm just discounting it for, you know, the washed up ones.
CurrySenpai said:
Vergilius is a fraud because the writers hate his ass, bro never wins or does anything cool.
Click to expand...
tfw no Canto 6 playthrough.
 
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