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Man, poor Rien...
Yeah, it's wild how we haven't had a Roland or Argalia page yet.
Genuinely, why do we have Cecil before him!
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Project Moon Discussion 2
- Thread starter MachTwo
- Start date
Yeah, it's wild how we haven't had a Roland or Argalia page yet.
Genuinely, why do we have Cecil before him!
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Found THE ROLAND SANDBOX
I'd need to play through LOR to make Argalia's, but atleast Roland's here yo.
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Doesn't the fact that Valencina was a former Sottocapo of The Thumb already make her a Star of the City level threat? And keep in mind that Valencina was also handicapped during that fight as her right eye wound reopened due to being near Ryoshu, and thus couldn't use it at all during their first encounter on top of dealing with severe bleeding.
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Are you sure it should be "At most Relativistic+"? Cause I did also note that she gets higher overtime (The Palermitan Style is statted to accelerate the longer a duel lasts)
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@MysticBrawler considering you didn't answer this yet
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Oh I didn't know that question was for me Ok just give me a minute to write my answer.
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It's simply because the Project Moon verse falls in the higher end of "Gameplay and Story Integration" where the gameplay mechanics directly reflect the story and vice versa, so it's naturally assumed that it would also apply to things like blocking certain attacks as well. Also in this thread it was agreed that Ezra would have the same resistances as the Grade 3 Fixers in Library Of Ruina so I figured that this would also apply to Valencina as well.
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Yes and No, Star of the City, as in the actual title, is something bestowed by Hana Association.
She is "Star of the City" tier in strength, because that's the category used for an Arc in LoR where the Library was a Star of the City.
So you cannot use Rien being labled as a Star of the City for justification for the other Nursefathers as it's specific to him.
Also keep in mind that Valecina's wound hadn't reopened again in the 2nd fight because Ryoshu was far away. The sword only reopens wounds when it's near its victims.
Also, The Eye is specifically the only reason Valecina is doing as well as she is vs Vergilius. Even with it she's exhausted while he's fine, and Vergilius taunts her whenever she dodges him using it, saying it "how long do you think you can keep this up". It's very clear that she isn't a proper match for Vergilius.
But she isn't incomparable, so she should still downscale.
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Hmmm, fair
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Ok, I'd still say she qualifies for the simple fact that The Thumb as a whole is categorized as a Star of The City, as well as her gaining her rank through her combat prowess coupled with the fact that all of the high-ranking members of the Five Fingers have been shown to be the strongest in their group.
I was specifically talking about their first encounter and my point was that she was shown still able to fight Vergilius for an extended period of time even without using her Eye of Odin so even though Vergilius does edge her out a bit I'd say she would still be comparable to his base even without the Eye.
So she downscales to Vergilius without the Eye of Odin and upscales with it. Is that right?
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That's the thing, you don't qualify for being a "Star of the City" as in the title, Hana Association designates you as one.
Valecina was never designated, so you can't use Rien being designated as one to say all Nursefathers are. She has her own feats of being in that general power range, but not the actual title.
Their first encounter was Valecina using Charon as a meatshield to stop Vergilius from killing her and it ended with her being exhausted and Vergilius completely fine. She is not on his level. In fact Valecina was rather explicit about needing Charon to avoid dying.
No, she has Precognition (via the Eye of Odin's calculations). The Eye of Odin doesn't do anything other than that (and blinding + hurting her in one eye if it overheats).
She downscales enough that she can put up a fight, but that's about it.
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Actually, I think the At most reasoning should be gone since Vergilus upscales from the Rel value, it being "At most" kind of implies that Verg doesn't upscale that much, so in a roundabout way, its an atleast.
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Ok then, I'll change the description of Valencina's AP to her downscaling from Vergilius.
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The wordings definetly an improvement but.
Even slightly weaker is kinda a bit much. It's best to just put them as comparable.
Heck, she even admits that without her precog (the ****** up eye), she'd get slaughtered.
The Eye of Odin is what really lets her keep up. Her stats are just good enough that she can put up a fight and that's it.
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While the power gap is clear to see I don't think the difference is that big so "slightly weaker" seems just right for me. And I think it's safe to say that she is still skilled enough to hold her own even when she has to wait for her Eye to cooldown.
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Slightly weaker characters don't get slaughtered by slightly stronger ones.
Again, her eye gives her Clairvoyance, which is the only reason she avoids going down quickly, it doesn't boost anything else. Her stats are good enough that she can fight back, but even then, she's basically doing jack all to Vergilius.
She can't even make him sweat/winded while using Charon as a meat shield.
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Hmm ok, so then how exactly would you like it worded then?
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How about revising it to "She was able to continue the battle with Vergilius"?
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Oh yeah. My bad for being lazy, I ain't even start rein im crying
I'll start today!
I'll start today!
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...Why exactly are we scaling top tiers to up to relativistic combat speed?
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chat... i thought the crt was accepted.. nuke the whole generation (scaling)
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Okay, we are really trying to upscale characters based on a assumption off an offscreen feat (Why exactly is the assumption that Matthias somehow tagged it rather than just, i dont know, crush the bodies until they can't move anymore...?). In a series in which a literal Star of the City character gets near murked by guns. I repeat. Relativistic speeds apparantly, but guns can still tag people 1 step below god tiers. Does the concept of outliers just not exist anymore?
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are you referring to the udjat?
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Yes. Rien specificly
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Eh, I would say guns ingeneral and Limbus is a weird thing.
To start off, Udjat Outis (who should mirror the Udjats ingeneral) bullets' abilities are very weird, it clearly isn't 1:1, considering Udjat Outis have bullets that somehow are able to inflict sinking and augment the panic types of enemies' to do so. Considering the fact that they're noted to be different (LCA Fracture Rounds compared to your regular guns) does suggest differetation, as shown in Full Stop Heath's Altelier Logic Bullets and Lei Heng's Savage Tigermark Rounds; they're clearly indicated to be superior to bullets icl.
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I would get it if it was sum standard ammo like the full stops, but like, Udjat Outis got bullets that somehow inflict depression c'mon
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Idk, something like
Small City level (A former Sottocapo of the Thumb and war hero of the Smoke Wars. Capable of engaging in an extended melee with Vergilius in a duel, albeit at a notable disadvantage), higher with amplifications and Shin/Mang (Can utilise Shin and generate one Mang in combat)
I mean, guns in PM aren't one to one with guns in our world. Sure it's not standard equipment, but irl guns can't use ammunition that can do all this. Heck, we even have a Rail-gun being used as a handheld gun by the Full-stop Office (and yes, guns are not allowed to penetrate City walls, but they're allowed to obliterate them. And City walls vary a lot in strength to the point of incomparability with real ones).
That aside, we don't really know the specifics of the Udjat Outis ID and the events don't line up with ours. For one, Rien doesn't get murked (the combat victory lines include stuff like Dawnclair talking about a House party even though the Dawn Office is all dead) and in the actual Uptie story, we only know he got badly injured but got rescued by Proselytes.
In fact, guns aren't the reason the Index Nursefather of that Mirror World went down. To be specific
"Numerous rarely-used functions and additional Workshop gear you brought to the mission really came in through the clutch in this operation, Ma'am."
So it's not even a proper anti-feat.
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Plus guns aren't even what brings him down apparently.
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Elemental bullets are for one, nothing new. Its the Thumbs entire shtick. But more importantly, nothing indicates that those bullets magically shoot faster than regular bullets. Like, we are talking over 10000 of times faster than regular bullets. Like either every Thumb goons shoot at relativistic speed or no one does.
Like, actually think about for a minute. Various mid and top tiers literally use guns. The Udjat Vanguard went into the fight, knowing who Rien was as a Star of the City, and the first thing they did was take aim at him. So either guns are just relativistic for no reasons or top tiers are actually not near light speed. And again. Lets disregard ALL OF THE LORE for a second. Is the concept of outliers just lost? Why are we just accepting relativistic speeds for a good chunk of characters based on a ambigious at best feat?
You penetrate through speed, mass and surface area. If a sand kernel was shot at near relativistic speed it would puncture even the thickest walls. "Bullets" being able to destroy building can also be archived without kinetic energy. The thumb has literal fire and explosive rounds.
He doesnt get murked by the Udjat because Diaz literally disabled the Udjats guns.
They arent the only reason why they could get Rien, yes, but pretending like they were props in that fight would be wrong too.
Like, actually think about for a minute. Various mid and top tiers literally use guns. The Udjat Vanguard went into the fight, knowing who Rien was as a Star of the City, and the first thing they did was take aim at him. So either guns are just relativistic for no reasons or top tiers are actually not near light speed. And again. Lets disregard ALL OF THE LORE for a second. Is the concept of outliers just lost? Why are we just accepting relativistic speeds for a good chunk of characters based on a ambigious at best feat?
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Well yes, but that's the loophole. As the Full-Stop Office IDs tell, you cannot penetrate a wall, but obliterating it is not considered penetration.
And the Full-Stop office doesn't use elemental rounds.
No, that's our Rien. The Udjat ID Index Nursefather only gets mortally wounded and dragged away to safety by Proselytes, to be healed or not/
Have you checked out the actual Content Revision thread? That's the better place to argue about it.
That aside, we don't know the specifics of how they got their version of Rien, so it's hard to even make a claim like that. Maybe, as Roland says, guns were basically useless against someone of Rien's calibre and the Udjat only succeeded through their more exotic weaponry. Maybe a Prescript told Rien it would be funny if he let himself get mortally wounded. Maybe etc.
We don't know any specifics.
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But you dont obliterate a wall through speed without penetrating it is the point. The bullet probably does some shockwave or vibration thing to destroy walls.
The argument was not "Walls can only be obliterated through elemental thumb bullets". It was one of the many possibilities that the wacky city tech allows.
I know...? But that also just illustrates my point perfectly? In one reality, he gets high diffed by a fully kitted out prepared Vanguard force. In the other he no-diffs them without issues. One got ahead of the sabotage and thus had their full equippment, the other didnt. And I think it should be fairly obvious what the implication of our Udjat taking aim and trying to shoot Rien is; They wholeheartly think that they can take Rien with their guns. You know who also thinks that? Diaz. Because ***** disabled those guns.
I have. Yasuda argued my points already.
This statement has been stretched to literally mean guns are useless against high tiers, its actually crazy. Sottocapos uses guns, ROLAND uses guns, the Udjat uses guns. At what point do we stop pretending people like Roland can see bullets frozen and do Macarenas around them, instead of how Roland probably meant it; That High tiers can comfortably react to bullets. You can react to things comfortably if its just 2 times faster than you. You can react to things comfortably if you are 2 times faster than whatever it is you are reacting to already. The speed gap being proposed right now is in the 100,000x faster range. Please actually imagine how this looks in universe.
Kalos shoots his gun at someone compareable and before the shot moves even a single centimeter, he and his opponent basically thought 3 battles already. How is this not ringing huge wtf bells in your head?
I can infer reasonably that the guns would have played a huge role in that fight. They woudnt had been disabled in our reality if they didnt. Thats really all we need to know. The Udjat would NOT waste their literal time shooting something that they could run laps around before it moved a meter. Either guns shoot at relativistic speeds for being able to tag relativistic high tiers or they dont. One will leave you with scaling nightmares, hello relativistic soldatos. The other will not, because it dosnt hinge on something that KJM didnt think really through or really intended to? Because again. The feat is offscreen. We dont even know if Matthias ACTUALLY tagged the abno in its original form or not.
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While I'm skeptical of Rien's sublight speed, I'd like to counter the bullet argument.
The fact that "bullets can't penetrate walls" isn't a matter of the city's technological prowess, but rather a taboo. Therefore, it's irrelevant to the power of a bullet that destroys walls to circumvent this fact.(And according to your argument, Kizaru must have infinite power. These physics formulas may not match how fiction works.)
You could argue that the evidence for sublight speed is insufficient, but your argument that sublight speed is impossible because bullets are anti-feats is false
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It already does has accepted tho
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Anyway, screw the guns and speed bullshit aside for a moment, I want to know how much we can scale the ids first
We know that the eventual Nursefathers IDs will put them on Low 7-B but how about someone like LeiSault, Hong Kong, and Manager Don (fyi I'm still unsure for ZiluFaust)? As for the other IDs, most of them should on 9-A (for lower tier IDs) and High 8-C (for mid and WAW level IDs)
We know that the eventual Nursefathers IDs will put them on Low 7-B but how about someone like LeiSault, Hong Kong, and Manager Don (fyi I'm still unsure for ZiluFaust)? As for the other IDs, most of them should on 9-A (for lower tier IDs) and High 8-C (for mid and WAW level IDs)
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Ok, I think this works, though I don't think I need to specify Shin and Mang since that's already under "amplifications"
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Purple Tear's page mentions it separately, so I just did it that way. That aside, it's probably not a bad idea to specify the amount of Mang someone can use.
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