Problem with Sakamotos speed calc

[DavidTPPM]

I was recently going through Sakamoto Days profiles and noticed some problematic values so I'll try to explain what's wrong with them.
To start off I'll focus on this supersonic+ calc. There are 2 main issues with this calc, both of which are pretty easy to understand.

Issues with the calc:
The calc assumes Sakamoto runs across the entire train before the first person who saw him could react. Hence why the reaction speed (0.2 seconds) of an average human is used as a timeframe. But that's just wrong for multiple reasons.

1. We see someone seemingly react to Sakamoto from the very start of his run.
2. We don't see anyone looking down the entire length of the train. This means Sakamoto would have left the field of vision of the people either waaaayyyy before he reached the end of the train or waaaayyy after the start. Basically, they wouldn't percieve him not because he's too fast but because he's literally not in their line of sight during the entire feat.
3. We don't see anyone by the end of his run, only at the start. This means that even if someone was staring down the train, we have no evidence they couldn't percieve him the entire time.

All 3 of these issues make the timeframe used in this calc unusable, debunking the whole calc.

Solution:
The calc isn't really used on Sakamotos profile anymore so we can just remove it from the verse page.

Agrees: Damage3245
Disagrees:

 

[DavidTPPM]

TL;DR for the lazy people: there's no evidence that Sakamoto actually moved the entire distance in the timeframe the calc uses

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Yeah, the OP looks correct to me that there's issues with the calc.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Bumperino

 

[Mr. Bambu]

It is a feat, as most people there aren't reacting, and I do think that second panel in the image you're referencing is indicative of something usable. That said, you're right, that guy is obviously reacting at the start, whether because the acceleration wasn't built yet or because he's got better reaction speed than the others present: I'll agree with the removal, but the basis of the calc is potentially salvageable imo.

 

[DavidTPPM]

It is a feat, as most people there aren't reacting, and I do think that second panel in the image you're referencing is indicative of something usable. That said, you're right, that guy is obviously reacting at the start, whether because the acceleration wasn't built yet or because he's got better reaction speed than the others present: I'll agree with the removal, but the basis of the calc is potentially salvageable imo.

The distance is definitely impressive and the feat takes a short period of time. I was thinking of redoing it using the standard 1 second time frame (or wait until the anime adaptation that's coming soon), but the results would be far lower than what's currently being used so it should only be re-calced if the anime gives us a better timeframe or if its necessary because the other calc get removed imo.

Either way thank you for your time and evaluation .

 

[Mr. Bambu]

The distance is definitely impressive and the feat takes a short period of time. I was thinking of redoing it using the standard 1 second time frame (or wait until the anime adaptation that's coming soon), but the results would be far lower than what's currently being used so it should only be re-calced if the anime gives us a better timeframe or if its necessary because the other calc get removed imo.

Either way thank you for your time and evaluation .

Yeah, that's fair.

As you have two approvals you may begin removing the calc from the verse, although I must ask what the rating given from the calc is to be replaced with?

 

[DavidTPPM]

Yeah, that's fair.

As you have two approvals you may begin removing the calc from the verse,

Thank you. Technically it's still about 30 minutes before the 48 hour grace form the threads opening is reached so I'm waiting till then.

although I must ask what the rating given from the calc is to be replaced with?

Currently Sakamotos fat form is MHS based on this calc. Meaning it doesn't actually need replacement.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not 100% sure if that calc is correct either since I don't see any indication that Sakamoto started moving AFTER the gun was shot, plus bullets are clearly very much a threat in the verse (making Sakamoto that much faster an outlier at best). But I didn't want to go over multiple calcs in one thread so I didn't think too deeply about it.

 

[DavidTPPM]

Alrighty, I removed the calc and the thread can be closed

 

[Senzulean]

...I don't see any indication that Sakamoto started moving AFTER the gun was shot, plus bullets are clearly very much a threat in the verse (making Sakamoto that much faster an outlier at best).

I don't think the panel could've been more clear in portraying that Sakamoto caught the bullet with the fork after it was fired barely inches away from his temple. As for the bolded part in the above quote, there are countless examples (and I'm still collecting more as I type this out) of Sakamoto & others being consistent bullet-timers or blitzing people who are consistent bullet-timers. They're like, the most commonly portrayed feats in the series. Hell, the first chapter of the whole series shows Sakamoto casually deflecting a bullet with a cough drop.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I don't think the panel could've been more clear in portraying that Sakamoto caught the bullet with the fork after it was fired barely inches away from his temple. As for the bolded part in the above quote, there are countless examples (and I'm still collecting more as I type this out) of Sakamoto & others being consistent bullet-timers

Yeah but the difference is that in those scenes he usually moves few inches in the time a bullet travels several meters.
In this one he moved several times the distance the bullet did in the same time frame.
One of the feats you've shown where Sakamoto barely blocks a sniper bullet (showing he couldn't have properly caught or dodged it) is calced at subsonic in the wiki.

I'm not against Sakamoto being a bullet timer, I'm saying him being like 17x faster than bullets is very hard to believe given how they're still very much a threat to him.

 

[Senzulean]

Yeah but the difference is that in those scenes he usually moves few inches in the time a bullet travels several meters.
In this one he moved several times the distance the bullet did in the same time frame.
One of the feats you've shown where Sakamoto barely blocks a sniper bullet (showing he couldn't have properly caught or dodged it) is calced at subsonic in the wiki.

He's literally caught 99 sniper bullets from Heisuke in a row for fun. With chopsticks. And later on, someone else, Apart, catches a snipet bullet from Heisuke here, with Heisuke saying "he's like Taro!" and Sakamoto himself complimenting Apart's deftness. Sakamoto is also shown to be capable of easily catching a sniper bullet once again just pages later in this same chapter. So I'm not very sure where the idea that he couldn't properly catch/dodge one comes from when he very evidently can.

 

[DavidTPPM]

He's literally caught 99 sniper bullets from Heisuke in a row for fun. With chopsticks. And later on, someone else, Apart, catches a snipet bullet from Heisuke here, with Heisuke saying "he's like Taro!" and Sakamoto himself complimenting Apart's deftness.

Again notice how that's after the bullet ricochets all over the place while Sakamoto and Apart move like 10cm.
Not only does bouncing around naturally lower the energy of a bullet, but they're still visibly moving MUCH less distance than the bullet after it's been shot.

Sakamoto is also shown to be capable of easily catching a sniper bullet once again just pages later in this same chapter. So I'm not very sure where the idea that he couldn't properly catch/dodge one comes from when he very evidently can.

I already addressed this

I'm not against Sakamoto being a bullet timer, I'm saying him being like 17x faster than bullets is very hard to believe given how they're still very much a threat to him.

Majority of the feats blatantly shows stuff like Apart putting his hand up in front of his face while a bullet moves like 20 meters. Not only is that not supportive evidence of him being 17x faster than a bullet, it's actually counter-evidence since if he was he should realistically be able to blitz the bullets

 

[Senzulean]

I should've started off with this, but I don't entirely care that much about whether or not they're "17x faster than a bullet"; I mainly cared to address the incorrect information that Sakamoto cannot properly catch or dodge rifle bullets when that is clearly not the case as shown in the several scans linked above.

I'm also not sure where the "bullets are still very much a threat to him" thing comes from when it's shown time and time again that Sakamoto or people comparable to/superior to him.. hell, even those that are far weaker than him like Mafuyu or Shin, casually just deflect or avoid bullets whenever they're fired at them.

 

[DavidTPPM]

I should've started off with this, but I don't entirely care that much about whether or not they're "17x faster than a bullet"; I mainly cared to address the incorrect information that Sakamoto cannot properly catch or dodge rifle bullets when that is clearly not the case as shown in the several scans linked above.

Buddy I never disagreed with that so what are you correcting? This is what I said.

bullets are clearly very much a threat in the verse (making Sakamoto that much faster an outlier at best).

Followed by this

I'm not against Sakamoto being a bullet timer, I'm saying him being like 17x faster than bullets is very hard to believe given how they're still very much a threat to him.

Not once did I disagree with Sakamoto being able to react to bullets.

I'm also not sure where the "bullets are still very much a threat to him" thing comes from when it's shown time and time again that Sakamoto or people comparable to/superior to him.. hell, even those that are far weaker than him like Mafuyu or Shin, casually just deflect or avoid bullets whenever they're fired at them.

Are we looking at the same scan? Shin is clearly using a gun as a weapon. That by itself makes it a relevant weapon and threat to people of his level.

The sheer use of guns even at the highest of levels (like when slim Sakamoto fought Takamura) proves their speed and AP can be at worst relative to the characters themselves. You wouldn't use a projectile weapon 17x slower than yourself…

 

[Kachon123]

Are we looking at the same scan? Shin is clearly using a gun as a weapon. That by itself makes it a relevant weapon and threat to people of his level.

The sheer use of guns even at the highest of levels (like when slim Sakamoto fought Takamura) proves their speed and AP can be at worst relative to the characters themselves. You wouldn't use a projectile weapon 17x slower than yourself…

And yet, there are several characters, both in and outside of Sakamoto Days, who use guns as their weapons of choice but are also shown to be much faster than the bullets they fire.

That is a very strange stance to take.

 

[DavidTPPM]

And yet, there are several characters, both in and outside of Sakamoto Days, who use guns as their weapons of choice but are also shown to be much faster than the bullets they fire.

Whataboutism doesn't really make Sakamotos use of guns any less contradictory since other series and characters have different feats and different contexts.

I would agree that consistent showings undeniably putting a character above the speed of a bullet would take priority as a feat over the character using guns as an anti feat. But that's really not the case here.

 

[Senzulean]

You quite literally stated that Sakamoto cannot properly catch or dodge sniper bullets when that is incorrect. So much so to the point that he can casually catch 99 of them for fun. That is what I was addressing.

One of the feats you've shown where Sakamoto barely blocks a sniper bullet (showing he couldn't have properly caught or dodged it) is calced at subsonic in the wiki.

As for this...

Are we looking at the same scan? Shin is clearly using a gun as a weapon. That by itself makes it a relevant weapon and threat to people of his level.

The sheer use of guns even at the highest of levels (like when slim Sakamoto fought Takamura) proves their speed and AP can be at worst relative to the characters themselves. You wouldn't use a projectile weapon 17x slower than yourself…

This is a manga about assassins; of course they're going to be utilizing guns, blades, rockets and whatever else... this does nothing to negate the fact that those who are worth their salt can very easily deflect and/or dodge gunfire, clearly showing time and time again that they are comfortably above the speed of a bullet. There's also several examples of these characters being blitzed by others who are above them, with Shin being able to dodge Toramura's rifle shots yet needing to actively use his Clairvoyance to avoid her physical attacks, Gaku blitzing Mafuyu, Shin & Toramura simultaneously while holding back greatly due to using someone's else's body, characters like Apart getting blitzed by Sakamoto, Uzuki blitzing both Apart & Sakamoto, Takamura blitzing characters like Uzuki, Nagumo & Sakamoto with Taro stating at one point that he didn't even see him coming at all, and this list could surely go on if I cared to comb thru the manga again for scenes like this specifically.

 

[Robo432343]

yeah wtf
i agree with @Senzulean

 

[DavidTPPM]

You quite literally stated that Sakamoto cannot properly catch or dodge sniper bullets when that is incorrect.

Because he literally fails to do so on screen in a scan YOU sent.

So much so to the point that he can casually catch 99 of them for fun.

Yeah when they're shot from a distance and ricoche off of walls and signs. Not when they're shot directly at him.

As for this...

This is a manga about assassins; of course they're going to be utilizing guns, blades, rockets and whatever else...

That is not an argument. I could easily just say back to you "this is a manga about gun wielding assassins. Of course they're not going to be faster than bullets".

this does nothing to negate the fact that those who are worth their salt can very easily deflect and/or dodge gunfire,

Doesn't make you 17x faster than a bullet.

clearly showing time and time again that they are comfortably above the speed of a bullet.

No. Showing time and time again that they can dodge bullets shot form dozens of meters away by moving few inches.

There's also several examples of these characters being blitzed by others who are above them, with Shin being able to dodge Toramura's rifle shots yet needing to actively use his Clairvoyance to avoid her physical attacks, Gaku blitzing Mafuyu, Shin & Toramura simultaneously while holding back greatly due to using someone's else's body, characters like Apart getting blitzed by Sakamoto, Uzuki blitzing both Apart & Sakamoto, Takamura blitzing characters like Uzuki, Nagumo & Sakamoto with Taro stating at one point that he didn't even see him coming at all, and this list could surely go on if I cared to comb thru the manga again for scenes like this specifically.

This literally means nothing.
First of all, blitzing someone doesn't necessarily mean perception blitzing them. Second of all, human blitzing someone is completely different from a bullet because a bullet is guaranteed to go in a straight line while a human can change directions at any point. For example
A bullet aimed at Shins head will undeniably go towards his head meaning Shin can start moving since the moment it's fired as he knows exactly where he needs to dodge. Sakamoto running at Shin forces Shin to wait until the last point to dodge as if he started dodging whole Sakamoto is far away, Taro would just change directions.

 

[DavidTPPM]

You're basically trying to put one extremely vague feat with no evidence of the bullet being shot before Sakamoto started moving over the countless tones characters in the verse either used guns, failed to successfully avoid bullets, and the general logic behind 90% of the fights where bullets are still shown to be fast enough to pose a threat even to the top tiers.

Either way that doesn't matter to this thread. When I'm done with a GoH thread I'm writing I might open another thread talking about this calc. Until then this thread should be closed as it's finished

 

[Senzulean]

Because he literally fails to do so on screen in a scan YOU sent.
Yeah when they're shot from a distance and ricoche off of walls and signs. Not when they're shot directly at him.

You understand that I sent far more than one scan, and that in the 99 bullet-catching one he reacts to & catches a sniper bullet that was shot directly at his head? What are you hinging on this single scan so much for when it is evident in many others that he, and several others who aren't even as swift as him like Kamihate, are notably capable of avoiding things like sniper shots even at extremely close ranges?

That is not an argument. I could easily just say back to you "this is a manga about gun wielding assassins. Of course they're not going to be faster than bullets".

No.. you could not, because we see time and time again that they in fact are faster than bullets... so you would just be completely wrong.

Doesn't make you 17x faster than a bullet.

Did I not already say that I do not care how many times faster they are than a bullet? My point is simply that they are faster than bullets. That is all.

This literally means nothing.
First of all, blitzing someone doesn't necessarily mean perception blitzing them. Second of all, human blitzing someone is completely different from a bullet because a bullet is guaranteed to go in a straight line while a human can change directions at any point. For example
A bullet aimed at Shins head will undeniably go towards his head meaning Shin can start moving since the moment it's fired as he knows exactly where he needs to dodge. Sakamoto running at Shin forces Shin to wait until the last point to dodge as if he started dodging whole Sakamoto is far away, Taro would just change directions.

Apart gets confused and starts to wonder where Sakamoto went when just earlier he was capable of perceiving him and his movements just fine before he came to grips with his extra weight. Sakamoto states that Takamura was so fast that he didn't even see it coming at all. Uzuki blitzes Sakamoto while they're straight across from each and stabs him in his chest without him even noticing. These are clear-cut examples of perception blitzing; aka, moving so fast that your target cannot see you. And considering that these are characters who are consistently shown capable of perceiving bullets and reacting to them accordingly even at the shortest of ranges, especially Sakamoto, this indicates that their movements can be swifter than even bullets.. this is just plain and simple logic.

You're basically trying to put one extremely vague feat with no evidence of the bullet being shot before Sakamoto started moving over the countless tones characters in the verse either used guns, failed to successfully avoid bullets, and the general logic behind 90% of the fights where bullets are still shown to be fast enough to pose a threat even to the top tiers.

Please show me these countless times that these bolded instances have occurred when the most consistent element you can find in Sakamoto Days is that bullets get either caught, deflected or wholly avoided by top tiers, and even low & mid tiers like they're nothing just about every single time weapons are used against them.