Problem on a verse that i'm observing

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Let's assume that we have a multiverse in a game/anime or manga. This multiverse is stated to have infinite possible timelines (each timeline contains at least 1 universe) but only myriads existing timelines and this numbers is constantly increasing. Basically this multiverse has a constantly increasing number of timelines and is now 2-B

But here it comes a new statement in this game! the multiverse is referred in this verse as "History".

History is now stated to be "Not Finite" aka infinite (https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4242733)

Based on what you said to me there, this verse would get upgraded to 2-A.

But i asked myself: If this multiverse has a constantly increasing number of timelines, this means that the multiverse is finite. Then after is stated to be not finite which is equal to infinite, but shouldn't this be a contradiction?

The best answer i found is that in this case "not finite" only means that this number is constantly increasing but it will never reach infinity or that History in this case is used in a poethical language in the sense that it refers to the past,present and future. Result: 2-B

BUT there is a reasons that made me disagree with this:

Not finite = infinite (according to this , this and this. Since we're talking about a number of timelines we have to take the mathematical definiton of not finite, which is infinite).

constantly increasing =/= infinite

Conclusion:constantly increasing =/= Not finite

History in this verse only refers to the past and how it can be changed, all of this results in creating other timelines. No present and future are mentioned here. No flower language here

Also:

We're referring to an infinite number of timelines. So mathematical infinity.

BUT:

Mathematical infinity can be expanded/increased. I'm talking about infinite sets , like countably infinite sets, that are used in the tiering system for the 2-A tier:

http://eldar.mathstat.uoguelph.ca/dashlock/Outreach/Articles/InfPlusOne.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

I'll try to eplain with this example:

Consider an infinite line, like the whole number line. Now consider adding 1 unit between every odd and even unit. You've just made an infinite thing expand! The expansion is local. Between any two points, there is now double the space, and the line is still infinite. Basically Infinity can increase in the middle and not in the ends.

According to what i reported before,the multiverse can be infinite and in constant expansion at the same time Because adding a new timeline to it only makes its infinity bigger. Aka 2-A

Can someone help me on this? I would appreciate it

 

[Antvasima]

I think that your reasoning of an increasing degree of 2-A seems correct.

You can also ask Ultima Reality and DontTalkDT to comment here if you wish, but it is likely not necessary.

 

[Theuser789]

This is obviously about Dragon Ball Heroes

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I am the wrong person to gauge that, and it is a fairly controversial topic.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Okay. I am the wrong person to gauge that, and it is a fairly controversial topic.

That's why i asked

Since i was watching other threads and i got even more confused.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

The reason i posted this is because i watched other threads but most of the answers there are like "It's flower language" (which it doesn't make sense) so i wanted to know if someone has other reasoning. Furthermore, another reason why I asked this question is because, as I have already said, I have looked at all (I swear, literally all) the other discussions on this topic.
Most of the answers use wrong definitions of words in relation to the context in which they are placed and so it is very easy for someone to misinterpret the statement.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Tbh, I don't understand what your question is. In terms of language, I mean.

Edit: If this is about some concrete feat, it would be easier to just post the context. Not at last, because errors in the abstraction process are frequent.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Tbh, I don't understand what your question is. In terms of language, I mean.
Edit: If this is about some concrete feat, it would be easier to just post the context. Not at last, because errors in the abstraction process are frequent.

This is about a statement which refers to a number of timelines and each of these timelines contains universes. In this verse it was stated that this number is constantly increasing.


However, a subsequent affirmation states that this number (referred as History, which refer to all existing timelines for reasons i said above) is "Not Finite", which in mathematics (from what the various sites report), is equal to infinite
But wouldn't this be a contradiction? Something that expands constantly is not infinite.
Then I read on these other sites that infinite sets in mathematics (we always talk about a number of universes in our case), like a countable infinite set, can actually expand/increase.

This would make the cosmology 2-A, because the fact that the multiverse is constantly expanding does not deny the fact that it is infinite (Basically there is an infinite amount of timelines).

I would like to know if i'm wrong

This saga is all about messing with timelines.

As you can see, there is the word "not finite" in this statement (there's also the world countless but it doen't contradict the rest since something infinite is countless)

As i said before, it's just a question. Nothing more

 

[Antvasima]

No problem, but you should probably ask some staff members listed in the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.

 

[DontTalkDT]

-snap-

In principle something infinite can get more in various senses.

My problem with your idea is more the fact that "history if not finite" can have a whole bunch of meanings and I don't see a reason why it would need to refer to the number of timelines at all.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that he means that if timelines are continuously splitting off during an infinite amount of time, there should be infinite timelines.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

I think that he means that if timelines are continuously splitting off during an infinite amount of time, there should be infinite timelines.

Alright i'll try to explain my point (sorry Julian):

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/U...X/DBH_2-B_Justification/Dragon_Ball_Cosmology

Cano:

1. So to start off we have Trunks' statement in the Dragon Ball manga in which he states that many different futures are created over the smallest of things meaning that every single decision and change made in a Timeline creates many others.

2. In this video Whis explains that the Time rings are equivalent to timelines. He also states that Beerus destroying Zamasu created another Timeline further proving the fact that timelines are created over the smallest of things. What proves this the most however is the fact that Gowasu has an entire room of boxes possibly filled with time rings.

3. Also when Pilaf is talking to Trunks he states that there are tons of different worlds which Trunks confirms.


4. If should be noted that every timeline has its own version of the twelve universes, afterlifes and pocket realms since the Future timeline has its own version of Zeno and Zamasu and the gods from each Universe. So even lowballing the previous statements would lead to Multiversal levels of timelines.

Non-Cano:

1. Pretty much all statements from canon apply since, as proven by Xenoverse 2, it follows a similar lore to Dragon Ball Super.

2. It also has a statement of its own as it is stated that Mira's intervention of time resulted in the creation of "myriads of time paradoxes". Here is what a "myriad" means.

3. It is also proven that twelve universes exist in each timeline since the DLC played out the events of the U6 Arc and the Future Trunks Arc making a mention of Zeno who rules the 12 universes.

4. According to a time patroller (who should be one of the most qualified on this subject), states that history can "end up taking an infinite number of paths" and that there's seemingly "no end to it"


Now that we've proven that Dragon Ball should have at least a 2-B cosmology

There's also another statement that proves that history is correlated to timelines:

https://imgur.com/a/TwIDgAX

Basically any change in history creates a new timeline.

But all of this only proves that there is an obscenely high number of timelines, and this number is constantly increasing or at the very least it can still increase.

Aka 2-B

But this was all before of the release of DLC 6 (Infinite History pack)

Where we have the statement that i posted above:

"History isn't linear. And it's certainly not finite.It's formed from a vast network of countless events"

I already explained why not finite doesn't mean constantly/infinitely increasing:

Not finite = infinite (according to this , this and this.)

constantly increasing =/= infinite

Conclusion:constantly increasing =/= Not finite

i also explained why There isn't any flower language:

" History in this case is used in a poethical language in the sense that it refers to the past,present and future."

History in this verse only refers to the past and how it can be changed, all of this results in creating other timelines. No present and future are mentioned here. No flower language here.

I also want to analize the last part of the statement because it's really important:

"It's formed from a vast network of countless events". Let's take the definition of event:

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/event

something that happens or is regarded as happening; an occurrence, especially one of some importance.

the outcome, issue, or result of anything:The venture had no successful event.

something that occurs in a certain place during a particular interval of time.

Physics. in relativity, an occurrence that is sharply localized at a single point in space and instant of time.Compare world point.

Sports. any of the contests in a program made up of one sport or of a number of sports:The broad jump event followed the pole vault.

The correct definition in this context is this:

the outcome, issue, or result of anything

Why is that, you ask? Watch this:

https://imgur.com/a/Vf2SlBm

After the History statement Fu explains to us the outcome/result of this timeline

So let's replace the word:

"History isn't linear. And it's certainly not finite.It's formed from a vast network of countless outcomes/events"

So this more proves infinite timeline, because there couldn't be infinite results without infinite timelines (in fact, Fu only says "as a result" implying that one timeline only has a single outcome)

Bu countless =/= infinite!

Countless means too many to be counted.

Non-finite is just another word for infinite.

If the statement only had the word "countless" in it, then it would have been 2-B. But this statement also includes "not finite" and an infinite amount of something is also too many to be counted aka countless. No contradiction here.

Also:

https://imgur.com/a/aKt2pwZ

"History is formed from a vast network of infinite events/outcomes/results".

Even if we ignore this statement there is another statement that explains that the "infinite paths" mentioned by the Time Patroller already exist:

Fu says that he wants to explore all the possibilities also implies that they already exist as you can't explore something that's just a possibility. Also Fu is talking about timelines. This is what he says after the statement above:

Infinity can expand:

http://eldar.mathstat.uoguelph.ca/dashlock/Outreach/Articles/InfPlusOne.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

I'll try to explain with this example:

Consider an infinite line, like the whole number line. Now consider adding 1 unit between every odd and even unit. You've just made an infinite thing expand! The expansion is local. Between any two points, there is now double the space, and the line is still infinite. Basically Infinity can increase in the middle and not in the ends.

According to what i reported before,the multiverse can be infinite and in constant expansion at the same time Because adding a new timeline to it only makes its infinity bigger. Aka 2-A

My conclusions are that Xenoverse/Heroes having an infinite amount of timelines has been stated an supported more than once. Aka 2-A

Now i'm going to bed. See you tomorrow!

 

[Zenkaibattery1]

Something very important is that everyone acknowledges there are infinite possibilities. However, Fu says that he is going to visit the possibilities, which he references as timelines. You cant visit something that doesnt exist. If he is going to visit them, then the infinite possibilities already exist.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Something very important is that everyone acknowledges there are infinite possibilities. However, Fu says that he is going to visit the possibilities. You cant visit something that doesnt exist. If he is going to visit them, then the infinite possibilities already exist.

Also this. As zenkai said, Fu wants to explore all the possibilities: What is the requirement for this? it's that these possibilities, which are infinite, already exist. Aka still 2-A

 

[Akreious]

And before someone brings it up because I know people will try to counter this whole thought experiment, Demigra did indeed cause "Time to overflow with Possibilities", although this isn't a knock against 2-A. Why? Simple- because Demigra is Acausal.

We know that the Time patrollers can fight the Demon Gods and such because they're acausal; what they do in that timeline won't spawn any more alternative timelines because for all intents and purposes, they don't "exist" in the Timeline.

Think of this whole thing as an enclosed System- a System of Infinite Timelines. Demigra is outside of this- outside of Time.

When he produces his own Timelines, he's basically throwing a metaphorical wrench into the system and since he isn't a part of the system, the system throws a hissy fit and things stop working. These are paradoxes. Why do I say this? Because paradoxes should be made when our CaCs goes Super Saiyan 3 in front of Super Saiyan Goku on Namek (Since he'd be getting knowledge of the future), but it doesn't. Future Trunks being on Namek should cause a paradox (Since he'd also be giving people knowledge of the future, notably the existence of Future Trunks), but it doesn't. Paradoxes are only made when someone outside of the System does something to change said System.

Paradoxes work this way because we know Paradoxes as we know it isn't possible in Dragon Ball; going back in time to change something only spawns a new timeline. That's it. No big purple portal thingie. They're already a part of the system; a part of the Infinite Possibilities.

This is why "The Probabilities are overflowing"- these timelines Demigra created was never supposed to exist in the system. It's a foreign entity. Oh sure, equivalents could occur- this is an Infinite Multiverse afterall- but that specific Demigra isn't in there. He's exempt- and the creation of these Timelines is unnatural.

 

[PlozAlcachaz]

A large amount of this post heavily relies on proof by intimidation. Please trim down your comment because it seems like it's a wall of text that's going to make this discussion take forever otherwise @Ottavio.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

A large amount of this post heavily relies on proof by intimidation. Please trim down your comment because it seems like it's a wall of text that's going to make this discussion take forever otherwise @Ottavio.

Okay. When i have time, i'll try to explain my opinion without writing so much. For the intimidation thing, i honestly don't kbow what are you referring to. But since you probably didn't write this without a reason, i'll be more careful.

Have a good day.

 

[Ottavio_Merluzzo]

Also since we're talking about one of Dragon Ball's big arguments, i'll remove the thread. It's in the middle of the Fandom moving.

 

[Antvasima]

I can lock it instead.