-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Power in The Cthulhu Mythos
- Thread starter Hat_mchat
- Start date
-
- Tags
- cthulhu mythos
- 15,614
- 7,054
- 15,614
- 7,054
I know. I was being sarcastic.
At this point, comparing "power" becomes rather pointless, unless you're just looking for verses of a similar scale.
At this point, comparing "power" becomes rather pointless, unless you're just looking for verses of a similar scale.
- 1,290
- 509
Who knows. I think there are others here. Some interpretations of comic-verses can be approached.
If we draw analogies between Cthulhu and Seagulls, there will be something like this.
If we draw analogies between Cthulhu and Seagulls, there will be something like this.
- Human Eternal Archetypes - Humans from the World of Gods
- Lesser Gods - Territory Lords
- Outer Gods - Voyagers
- Yog-Sothoth - Featherine
- The Nameless Mist - The one who plays the role of Featherine
- Azathoth - the Creator
- 15,614
- 7,054
They are. But there are lesser human archetype fragments.Hat mchat said:
For instance, there is an eternal Randolph Carter archetype, but even that is a fragment of Yog-Sothoth.
- 21,783
- 4,826
A lot of the creepy factor comes out of "Umineko No Naku Koro Ni" when you realised Umineko is talking about seagulls... those nasty white birds that at the beach that fly up and peck you on the head and steal your chip when it is already entering your mouth, scratching your face in the process and giving you mild trauma so you huddle in a feotal position whenever you see those nightmarish demons in the shape of birds because you were only 6 years old and you were really look forward to eating that chip - sorry, what were we talking about?
Also:
Also:
Hmmm? What's this? Explanation pleaseDarkLK said:
- 430
- 279
- Thread starter
- #51
All the outer gods are fragments of yog-sothoth
Also when you say lesser gods i assume you mean the lesser outer gods, but on their page it says lesser just refers to their prominence and not their power. Also i thought the lesser outer gods also were atchetypes.
Also when you say lesser gods i assume you mean the lesser outer gods, but on their page it says lesser just refers to their prominence and not their power. Also i thought the lesser outer gods also were atchetypes.
- 15,614
- 7,054
@Hat
Carter beyond the Gate=/=Carter who went through the Gate. This is the realization he comes to. There is no single entity referred to as Randolph Carter, there are infinite stages of the personality of Randolph Carter which believe they experience things in a certain order, but in reality, perspective and change are illusions.
"He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher's house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth's trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate."
Carter realizes that all conceptions of these Carters are cut from one eternal, dimensionless "Carter".
"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal "Carter" outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."
The penchant for knowledge and discovery that comes from Carter's archetype is due to how it is cut from the Supreme Archetype, which is Yog-Sothoth.
"The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter's own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT."
Carter beyond the Gate=/=Carter who went through the Gate. This is the realization he comes to. There is no single entity referred to as Randolph Carter, there are infinite stages of the personality of Randolph Carter which believe they experience things in a certain order, but in reality, perspective and change are illusions.
"He was in many places at the same time. On earth, on October 7, 1883, a little boy named Randolph Carter was leaving the Snake-Den in the hushed evening light and running down the rocky slope and through the twisted-boughed orchard toward his Uncle Christopher's house in the hills beyond Arkham—yet at that same moment, which was also somehow in the earthly year of 1928, a vague shadow not less Randolph Carter was sitting on a pedestal among the Ancient Ones in earth's trans-dimensional extension. Here, too, was a third Randolph Carter in the unknown and formless cosmic abyss beyond the Ultimate Gate. And elsewhere, in a chaos of scenes whose infinite multiplicity and monstrous diversity brought him close to the brink of madness, were a limitless confusion of beings which he knew were as much himself as the local manifestation now beyond the Ultimate Gate."
Carter realizes that all conceptions of these Carters are cut from one eternal, dimensionless "Carter".
"All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions. Each local being—son, father, grandfather, and so on—and each stage of individual being—infant, child, boy, young man, old man—is merely one of the infinite phases of that same archetypal and eternal being, caused by a variation in the angle of the consciousness-plane which cuts it. Randolph Carter at all ages; Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal "Carter" outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case."
The penchant for knowledge and discovery that comes from Carter's archetype is due to how it is cut from the Supreme Archetype, which is Yog-Sothoth.
"The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter's own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT."
- 1,290
- 509
Monarch Laciel said:
It is assumed that both Hachijo (human Featherine) and Featherine are just Insignificant names of the roles that the actor plays.
We also know that the human-like form that Featherine took is not her true form.
Also when Bernkastel aside from the Umineko story wrote a letter to her friend, she did not name her by name.
- 21,783
- 4,826
Question. Is Featherine's weakness halo thing an actual weakness, or is that just the "actor" adding a weakness to her character?
- 15,614
- 7,054
You know, I just realized how fitting this is, since even "Yog-Sothoth" is but one of the fractional perceptions of what it actually is.DarkLK said:
- 15,614
- 7,054
No. It is merely the "thing" that "spawned" Yog-Sothoth, be that by becoming it or something else. That's all we know. The Mist and the Darkness are presented as more ideas than entities.
- 15,614
- 7,054
https://www.yog-sothoth.com/wiki/index.php/DreamlandsHat mchat said:
- 15,614
- 7,054
I've already explained the Plot Manipulation one on my wall a while back, so I'll just find that response and copy it here (because I'm lazy).
Mistake, probably. Should just be Information Manipulation.
Mistake, probably. Should just be Information Manipulation.
- 430
- 279
- Thread starter
- #64
"To summarize, simply existing in a higher-dimensional space does not classify a character as higher-dimensional in any way." -Tiering system
Given this, could you please explain why hypnos is 1-A? (From what i can see, hypnos is 1-A for visiting places beyond space and time which you have proved is infinite dimensional, yet how is this a 1-A feat?)
>Now before you mention he is lord of dreams i have another inquiry on that matter: if he really has mastery over dreams and all his adventuring with the nameless sculptor is in the realm of dreams, how could the outer gods be a threat to him in his realm? He embodies dreams, so he embodies everything in dreams? He apparently reaches a place beyond all "thought and entity" which is essentially conceptual transcendence, yet does he still embody this space? It says he was whirled away "irresistibly" as if against his will.
Ok i get this is pretty incoherent, but I'd appreciate any answer if possible.
Given this, could you please explain why hypnos is 1-A? (From what i can see, hypnos is 1-A for visiting places beyond space and time which you have proved is infinite dimensional, yet how is this a 1-A feat?)
>Now before you mention he is lord of dreams i have another inquiry on that matter: if he really has mastery over dreams and all his adventuring with the nameless sculptor is in the realm of dreams, how could the outer gods be a threat to him in his realm? He embodies dreams, so he embodies everything in dreams? He apparently reaches a place beyond all "thought and entity" which is essentially conceptual transcendence, yet does he still embody this space? It says he was whirled away "irresistibly" as if against his will.
Ok i get this is pretty incoherent, but I'd appreciate any answer if possible.
- 430
- 279
- Thread starter
- #65
Also, on the respect thread you used the fungi from yuggoth poem about nyarlathotep taking a mortal beyond dimensional space aa a 1-A feat. I do think he is 1-A, but is simply travelling to a dimensionless space a 1-A feat?
EDIT: by the way I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious and these questions plague me constantly so i just ask the only mythos expert i know.
EDIT: by the way I'm not trying to be rude, I'm genuinely curious and these questions plague me constantly so i just ask the only mythos expert i know.
- 15,614
- 7,054
On the matter of Hypnos; simply being in a 1-A space does not make you 1-A (hence why the narrator isn't), but transcending into it via your own power should be. Even if one were to argue Hypnos' initial entry into 1-A realms was not a 1-A feat, he later proceeds to fly past boundaries the narrator cannot pass and ascend to higher parts of existence, which is definitely a 1-A feat.
Nyarlathotep's avatar is a similar case. The logic doesn't follow that humans = 1-A because Nyar's avatar took them into 1-A space, but that Nyar's avatar = 1-A because it was native to and had the power to enter and exit said realm on its own, in the first place.
Nyarlathotep's avatar is a similar case. The logic doesn't follow that humans = 1-A because Nyar's avatar took them into 1-A space, but that Nyar's avatar = 1-A because it was native to and had the power to enter and exit said realm on its own, in the first place.
- 32,359
- 20,299
Hypnos went through the Ultimate Gate through his own power.
- 430
- 279
- Thread starter
- #71
So do you have to be 1-A to actually get to a dimensionless space (on your own)?
On another matter: if hypnos managed to transcend the ultimate gate, would he be beyond all perspective, yet still be unfathomably weaker than the outer gods? If so then I'm just at a loss for words regarding the scale of outer gods
On another matter: if hypnos managed to transcend the ultimate gate, would he be beyond all perspective, yet still be unfathomably weaker than the outer gods? If so then I'm just at a loss for words regarding the scale of outer gods
- 15,614
- 7,054
One could probably debate if Hypnos passed through the Ultimate Gate or not, since we know there are multiple gates (ex. the one that leads from Earth to 'Umr at-Tawil). That said, going through any gate via your own power would likely be 1-A (Carter only passed through the first gate via the Silver Key, and the second via 'Umr at-Tawil's blessing). We know there is still archetypal infinity/levels of vague, shapeless beings beyond dimensions as we know them, which the Outer Gods transcend due to existing beyond perspective and viewing existence in its absolute state, so it's quite possible Hypnos just began ascending higher in the ladder of existence and caught the attention of the Outer Gods via some sort of indirect emissary (ex. one of Nyarlathotep's many masks, one of Yog's other avatars, etc.).
Should he have actually gone through the Ultimate Gate to the same plane of existence as the lesser Archetypes, true Outer Gods, Yog-Sothoh, and Azathoth...and still died just by catching their attention, that would be even more nuts, yeah.
Should he have actually gone through the Ultimate Gate to the same plane of existence as the lesser Archetypes, true Outer Gods, Yog-Sothoh, and Azathoth...and still died just by catching their attention, that would be even more nuts, yeah.
- 32,359
- 20,299
I think that's not likely. A mortal was taken to the throne of Azathoth by Nya just because. He probably just entered there plane through the gate and went insane.
- 15,614
- 7,054
@Matt
Considering some gates have ludicrously short routes compared to others (entering progressively more alien extensions of Earth's universe through gates vs Earth => Transcendent realm => Ultimate Void), that's quite possible. It's also possible his god complex was part of why it affected him so drastically. Most beings who are "shown" the Outer Gods are already aware of how small and insignificant they are, so while it's a frightening experience, it's not as much of a shock as it would be to someone like Hypnos, a literal god who believed he could eventually control all reality, and until that point, likely had no reason to doubt this.
Also "A mortal was taken to the throne of Azathoth by Nya just because" is funny because it's entirely accurate.
@Ant
To something such as?
Considering some gates have ludicrously short routes compared to others (entering progressively more alien extensions of Earth's universe through gates vs Earth => Transcendent realm => Ultimate Void), that's quite possible. It's also possible his god complex was part of why it affected him so drastically. Most beings who are "shown" the Outer Gods are already aware of how small and insignificant they are, so while it's a frightening experience, it's not as much of a shock as it would be to someone like Hypnos, a literal god who believed he could eventually control all reality, and until that point, likely had no reason to doubt this.
Also "A mortal was taken to the throne of Azathoth by Nya just because" is funny because it's entirely accurate.
@Ant
To something such as?
- 15,614
- 7,054
Perhaps just adding something like "and ascending to even more transcendent realms beyond that, on his own" at the end of the second sentence of his AP justification?
- 15,614
- 7,054
I'll add it, then.
Similar threads
