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Potential Hunter x Hunter upgrades.
- Thread starter TheMerchant66
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I am planning to do that after the forum move. When is it complete?
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I don't think anyone is saying we scale humans to the Royal Guards. We already know that they are in a league of their own.TheMerchant66 said:
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It is baseless to try and scale humans "with their best stuff". I don't know how that idea has gotten around. We don't assume the Hatsu of vaguely similar characters are comparable without evidence.
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I can attempt tomorrow
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There's literally no evidence to scale humans Hatsu from Morels. Instead of arguing around it literally does not make sense and will not be accepted. Kite cannot be used as an argument, his fight was literally off-screen, we don't know how he harmed Pitou or even if he did at all. He may have a technique that is powerful enough to scratch Pitou but due to the nature of Nen Abilities we cannot scale them. Limitation and Contracts are a part of almost every single Nen Ability.
Zeno is the only person I would accept scaling somewhat to RG. It's either Zeno scales or none of the humans scale.
Morel's Smoky Jail is specifically a defensive technique that we do not know the mechanics of. Since he managed to block Youpi's attack in a weakened state when Youpi's Rage Blast is above his entire Nen Capacity, he's obviously using a limitations/ a contract to increase the durability. You cannot scale this ability, peiod.
Zeno is the only person I would accept scaling somewhat to RG. It's either Zeno scales or none of the humans scale.
Morel's Smoky Jail is specifically a defensive technique that we do not know the mechanics of. Since he managed to block Youpi's attack in a weakened state when Youpi's Rage Blast is above his entire Nen Capacity, he's obviously using a limitations/ a contract to increase the durability. You cannot scale this ability, peiod.
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"yes we do. It is blatantly implied that the blood came from the preceding fight with Kite. This isn't really hard to prove not sure why you keep trying to hold off on this point."
Obviously it came from the fight but where did it come from? Did it come from Kite's severed head or what? We do not know because the fight was off-screen.
"Once again false. You keep using charged language to try and downplay the strike without presenting any actual proof. Meruem was well aware that hsi guards were insanely stronger than his normal lackeys. Hence why they were his right hand men during that scene itself. He didn't casually swing...He swung with intent to kill, which is opposed to "Casually" and the reason he praised her is because she surpassed his expectations. He wouldn't praise her for surviving a casual love tap. You are completely ignoring the evidence given and concocting some weird interpretation to try and support your point."
All you did here was say the exact same thing as the first time with nothing new to offer. Meruem having an intent to kill doesn't mean he hit her significantly hard. Meruem can have an intent to kill and STILL casually swing his tail because THAT'S HOW POWERFUL HE IS. You contradict yourself here as well. If Meruem knew her power and wanted her dead, he would have hit her harder and killed her. Why didn't he? He didn't know the extent of her power which is why Pitou still existed for the rest of that arc. Address this directly don't skip over it and repeat your last post.
"No it doesn't. "It's hard to harm an RG is a fact. And I literally gave you evidence. Pitou was unscathed from A buddha palm from Netero, and suffered brusing from a kill strike via meruem. The "assumption" is literally the most evidenced conclusion from the scene. For Kite to have injured Pitou at all means he must be capable of getting close to her durability based on how nen works, and common sense."
I'm not contesting it's hard harm to damage a RG, I'm contesting the little damage Kite did, if he did do damage and HOW he did it. Nen has literally infinite possible facets, Nen can be used to bypass durability, Nen can be used to amplify ones physical stats beyond the norm. Just saying "You need to overcome their Nen to damage them" is so false considering the myriad of different abilities which go against this. You cannot overpower every ability if you're strong. Since we don't know how Kite did what he did, assuming he did, we cannot say "Kite scales to the RG therefore Knuckle scales, Morel scales etc." it doesn't work like that taking into account contracts and limitations which almost every Nen ability is bound by. Even then why would anyone scale to Kite damaging a Royal Guard? First off, what I mentioned means Kite could have used an ability which is VASTLY MORE POWERFUL than his usual stats which Gon used to scale to Knuckle. So Knuckle doesn't scale, he tried to damage Youpi, who Pitou scales to in durability and failed miserably. Therefore Morel would not scale to Kite even if this were the case and scaling Morel to Youpi still does not make any sense.
Netero pushing away Pitou and not harming her doesn't mean anything, all he was trying to do was BFR her away from the King. This doesn't prove how Kite harmed Pitou at all.
Assuming Kite harmed Pitou, it's a little scratch, it isn't significant damage enough to scale in the first place. No matter how hard it was.
"You keep ignoring things. Pitou's excitment is because said people are strong and she wants to prove herself against them. RG can stomp most hunters because their stats and too constisently high across the board. That doesn't mean the hunters don't have moves that can affect the RG, which has been proven multiple times in this thread. It's just in a 1v1 they wouldn't have time to employ said moves before being killed by raw speed and power."
Ok and this disproves what I said how? Address my points on Morel. Don't run around my points. A Hunter MAY have an ability that can affect a RG with Nen Abilities. Nen Abilities are made to get around raw power in the first place and some abilities are amplified with limitations and contracts making them much more powerful than a Nen Users base stats. This is likely what Morel has done with Smoky Jail. This also means Smoky Jail would not scale to Morel himself but you cannot scale Nen Abilities as a result of this. What if another Hunters ability doesn't have the same extent of limitations making it weaker? Should we scale everyone to Knuckle's APR because it's nigh invulnerable? Knuckle uses limitations and contracts to make what he emits to be indestructible but this does not scale to anyone else.
"This is a pretty forced conclusion. Him being the one chosen to scare Pitou doesn't mean he is stronger than his peers...You are forcing that conclusion and it doesn't logically follow given that Pitou never encountered a slew of those peers.
Zeno had to risk his life in order to fail killing chrollo, with Silva as back up. While Chrollo had no killing intent. What makes you think he would fair better without silva and Chrollo having killing intent? He states the end result would be "another story" if Chrollo fought to kill. If Zeno was > Chrollo this wouldn't be the case, and Zeno inherently wouldn't have needed to sacrifice his life to kill Chrollo with backup nonetheless.
Chrollo literally tanked multiple attacks from Zeno including his dragon hatsu. "
Pitou doesn't have to encounter them to scale above them. Zeno somewhat scaling to Pitou does place him above them. Zeno did not have to risk his life, at all. You do realise Zeno knew that Chrollo had hired Illumi to kill the Dons, right? Chrollo with killing intent doesn't increase his physicality whatsoever, what is your point? Chrollo has a dictionary full of abilities. Saying it would be "another story" doesn't allude to Chrollo magically becoming superior in strength, it alludes to Chrollo using lethal abilities, tactics and strategy regardless it means nothing. At the base level obviously the fight would be different if Chrollo was trying to kill.
Chrollo tanked regular casual punches, not his Ko. Chrollo stated he couldn't tanked Silva's Ko. His Dragon Lance was literally just to hold Chrollo in place rather than hurt him. He was just pinning Chrollo so he could get slapped by Silva's Hatsu. Silva also knew Illumi was killing the Dons. Zeno clearly was not at full power in that fight. All he did cause Chrollo to run the entire time, use Dragon Lance to pin Chrollo and hit him casually a few times to only tank most of Silva's Hatsu for Chrollo. Chrollo could not get one attack off and Silva had minor intrusions, he hit Chrollo ONCE besides the Hatsu. Most of the fight was between Zeno and Chrollo whilst Silva waited to get an opportunity to hit Chrollo with his Hatsu. In the end you're just taking the fight at the absolute face value without considering Zeno wasn't serious at all in that fight in comparison to Zeno in the Ant Arc where he equals a much stronger opponent. So Zeno>Chrollo and Silva quite clearly and only Zeno would somewhat scale to Pitou whilst Chrollo and Silva each have no abilities in their arsenal to harm Pitou. At best they'll make her excited and proceed to get annihilated. You haven't even addressed Zeno somewhat scaling to Netero either having fought him multiple times. In conclusion, Chrollo and Silve do not scale to a serious Zeno.
"Except you didn't. You used arguments from ignorance (Morel is using a contract or limitation), special pleading (Zeno can threaten RG with his nen despite being <<< them, but he's a special case that no other hunters can replicate), and the repeated rebuttal of "that means nothing" without backing that up or countering my points."
No I used logic and reasoning to deduce why Morel scaling to Youpi makes zero sense which you didn't directly address. I repeat "that mean nothing" because you repeat debunked points. Tell me how Morel scaling to Youpi makes sense.
"Pouf is a royal guard. Being nerfed doesn't make him fodder tier. Pouf still easily assessed he could kill Killua with a strike.
Okay? You realise all attacks that target things with cells....hit the cells of their opponents? This isn't really an argument, it's just stating something obvious. If you get punched in the face, the other person's fist and KE hit your cells...Killua doing damage with his lightning was no different than character x from anime y using electricity to burn something."
It didn't make him "fodder tier" it vastly reduced his power and durability and he doesn't scale to Youpi or Pitou durability wise in the first place. When did Pouf assess this?
...Are you serious with this argument. Do you not know how Pouf's body works? Killus specifically burnt his cells ON A CELLULAR LEVEL with his lightning. This is the same as "oh i hit your face so i targeted your cell lol". I hope you're memeing here.
"It doesn't. I literally posted the mechanics of nen. Killua can't effect youpi if his nen efifciency isn't high enough to match or get close to Youpi's.
Resistance to electricity just means said character has a higher threshold for that specific element in question. It doesn't prove it's hax. Not really sure what you are going with on that one. Wind, water, fire, earth, etc all have resistances. Doesn't mean those elements bypass conventional energy.
The same way Freezing is a side effect of ice, shock is a side effect of electricity to biological life. Doesn't mean they don't follow energy rules."
I addressed the misused Nen Mechanics argument. Which was blatantly and laughably wrong.
Make a CRT to remove it then. I don't have to argue this if we're basing the arguments from the profiles.
Obviously it came from the fight but where did it come from? Did it come from Kite's severed head or what? We do not know because the fight was off-screen.
"Once again false. You keep using charged language to try and downplay the strike without presenting any actual proof. Meruem was well aware that hsi guards were insanely stronger than his normal lackeys. Hence why they were his right hand men during that scene itself. He didn't casually swing...He swung with intent to kill, which is opposed to "Casually" and the reason he praised her is because she surpassed his expectations. He wouldn't praise her for surviving a casual love tap. You are completely ignoring the evidence given and concocting some weird interpretation to try and support your point."
All you did here was say the exact same thing as the first time with nothing new to offer. Meruem having an intent to kill doesn't mean he hit her significantly hard. Meruem can have an intent to kill and STILL casually swing his tail because THAT'S HOW POWERFUL HE IS. You contradict yourself here as well. If Meruem knew her power and wanted her dead, he would have hit her harder and killed her. Why didn't he? He didn't know the extent of her power which is why Pitou still existed for the rest of that arc. Address this directly don't skip over it and repeat your last post.
"No it doesn't. "It's hard to harm an RG is a fact. And I literally gave you evidence. Pitou was unscathed from A buddha palm from Netero, and suffered brusing from a kill strike via meruem. The "assumption" is literally the most evidenced conclusion from the scene. For Kite to have injured Pitou at all means he must be capable of getting close to her durability based on how nen works, and common sense."
I'm not contesting it's hard harm to damage a RG, I'm contesting the little damage Kite did, if he did do damage and HOW he did it. Nen has literally infinite possible facets, Nen can be used to bypass durability, Nen can be used to amplify ones physical stats beyond the norm. Just saying "You need to overcome their Nen to damage them" is so false considering the myriad of different abilities which go against this. You cannot overpower every ability if you're strong. Since we don't know how Kite did what he did, assuming he did, we cannot say "Kite scales to the RG therefore Knuckle scales, Morel scales etc." it doesn't work like that taking into account contracts and limitations which almost every Nen ability is bound by. Even then why would anyone scale to Kite damaging a Royal Guard? First off, what I mentioned means Kite could have used an ability which is VASTLY MORE POWERFUL than his usual stats which Gon used to scale to Knuckle. So Knuckle doesn't scale, he tried to damage Youpi, who Pitou scales to in durability and failed miserably. Therefore Morel would not scale to Kite even if this were the case and scaling Morel to Youpi still does not make any sense.
Netero pushing away Pitou and not harming her doesn't mean anything, all he was trying to do was BFR her away from the King. This doesn't prove how Kite harmed Pitou at all.
Assuming Kite harmed Pitou, it's a little scratch, it isn't significant damage enough to scale in the first place. No matter how hard it was.
"You keep ignoring things. Pitou's excitment is because said people are strong and she wants to prove herself against them. RG can stomp most hunters because their stats and too constisently high across the board. That doesn't mean the hunters don't have moves that can affect the RG, which has been proven multiple times in this thread. It's just in a 1v1 they wouldn't have time to employ said moves before being killed by raw speed and power."
Ok and this disproves what I said how? Address my points on Morel. Don't run around my points. A Hunter MAY have an ability that can affect a RG with Nen Abilities. Nen Abilities are made to get around raw power in the first place and some abilities are amplified with limitations and contracts making them much more powerful than a Nen Users base stats. This is likely what Morel has done with Smoky Jail. This also means Smoky Jail would not scale to Morel himself but you cannot scale Nen Abilities as a result of this. What if another Hunters ability doesn't have the same extent of limitations making it weaker? Should we scale everyone to Knuckle's APR because it's nigh invulnerable? Knuckle uses limitations and contracts to make what he emits to be indestructible but this does not scale to anyone else.
"This is a pretty forced conclusion. Him being the one chosen to scare Pitou doesn't mean he is stronger than his peers...You are forcing that conclusion and it doesn't logically follow given that Pitou never encountered a slew of those peers.
Zeno had to risk his life in order to fail killing chrollo, with Silva as back up. While Chrollo had no killing intent. What makes you think he would fair better without silva and Chrollo having killing intent? He states the end result would be "another story" if Chrollo fought to kill. If Zeno was > Chrollo this wouldn't be the case, and Zeno inherently wouldn't have needed to sacrifice his life to kill Chrollo with backup nonetheless.
Chrollo literally tanked multiple attacks from Zeno including his dragon hatsu. "
Pitou doesn't have to encounter them to scale above them. Zeno somewhat scaling to Pitou does place him above them. Zeno did not have to risk his life, at all. You do realise Zeno knew that Chrollo had hired Illumi to kill the Dons, right? Chrollo with killing intent doesn't increase his physicality whatsoever, what is your point? Chrollo has a dictionary full of abilities. Saying it would be "another story" doesn't allude to Chrollo magically becoming superior in strength, it alludes to Chrollo using lethal abilities, tactics and strategy regardless it means nothing. At the base level obviously the fight would be different if Chrollo was trying to kill.
Chrollo tanked regular casual punches, not his Ko. Chrollo stated he couldn't tanked Silva's Ko. His Dragon Lance was literally just to hold Chrollo in place rather than hurt him. He was just pinning Chrollo so he could get slapped by Silva's Hatsu. Silva also knew Illumi was killing the Dons. Zeno clearly was not at full power in that fight. All he did cause Chrollo to run the entire time, use Dragon Lance to pin Chrollo and hit him casually a few times to only tank most of Silva's Hatsu for Chrollo. Chrollo could not get one attack off and Silva had minor intrusions, he hit Chrollo ONCE besides the Hatsu. Most of the fight was between Zeno and Chrollo whilst Silva waited to get an opportunity to hit Chrollo with his Hatsu. In the end you're just taking the fight at the absolute face value without considering Zeno wasn't serious at all in that fight in comparison to Zeno in the Ant Arc where he equals a much stronger opponent. So Zeno>Chrollo and Silva quite clearly and only Zeno would somewhat scale to Pitou whilst Chrollo and Silva each have no abilities in their arsenal to harm Pitou. At best they'll make her excited and proceed to get annihilated. You haven't even addressed Zeno somewhat scaling to Netero either having fought him multiple times. In conclusion, Chrollo and Silve do not scale to a serious Zeno.
"Except you didn't. You used arguments from ignorance (Morel is using a contract or limitation), special pleading (Zeno can threaten RG with his nen despite being <<< them, but he's a special case that no other hunters can replicate), and the repeated rebuttal of "that means nothing" without backing that up or countering my points."
No I used logic and reasoning to deduce why Morel scaling to Youpi makes zero sense which you didn't directly address. I repeat "that mean nothing" because you repeat debunked points. Tell me how Morel scaling to Youpi makes sense.
"Pouf is a royal guard. Being nerfed doesn't make him fodder tier. Pouf still easily assessed he could kill Killua with a strike.
Okay? You realise all attacks that target things with cells....hit the cells of their opponents? This isn't really an argument, it's just stating something obvious. If you get punched in the face, the other person's fist and KE hit your cells...Killua doing damage with his lightning was no different than character x from anime y using electricity to burn something."
It didn't make him "fodder tier" it vastly reduced his power and durability and he doesn't scale to Youpi or Pitou durability wise in the first place. When did Pouf assess this?
...Are you serious with this argument. Do you not know how Pouf's body works? Killus specifically burnt his cells ON A CELLULAR LEVEL with his lightning. This is the same as "oh i hit your face so i targeted your cell lol". I hope you're memeing here.
"It doesn't. I literally posted the mechanics of nen. Killua can't effect youpi if his nen efifciency isn't high enough to match or get close to Youpi's.
Resistance to electricity just means said character has a higher threshold for that specific element in question. It doesn't prove it's hax. Not really sure what you are going with on that one. Wind, water, fire, earth, etc all have resistances. Doesn't mean those elements bypass conventional energy.
The same way Freezing is a side effect of ice, shock is a side effect of electricity to biological life. Doesn't mean they don't follow energy rules."
I addressed the misused Nen Mechanics argument. Which was blatantly and laughably wrong.
Make a CRT to remove it then. I don't have to argue this if we're basing the arguments from the profiles.
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This will be my last text post on this topic, if you want to continue the debate ask me on my message wall but no one is accepting Morel's Hatsu scaling.
In conclusion:
You cannot use Kite to justify the scaling.
You cannot use Pitou's hype.
I can accept Zeno somewhat scaling but if you want to scale Chrollo and Silva it will mess up the scaling and everyone would somewhat scale to RGs AP wise "with their best Hatsu" when even top tier Hunters might not have an ability on par with Morel's defence because of limitations and contracts. So it's either Zeno scales or no one scales for me.
Killua does ignore durability, if you want to change that make a CRT.
Although I do think it's possible for Hunters to get that high since they're superior to Morel in Nen Manipulation, they aren't that high (in terms of defence) unless proven to be.
In conclusion:
You cannot use Kite to justify the scaling.
You cannot use Pitou's hype.
I can accept Zeno somewhat scaling but if you want to scale Chrollo and Silva it will mess up the scaling and everyone would somewhat scale to RGs AP wise "with their best Hatsu" when even top tier Hunters might not have an ability on par with Morel's defence because of limitations and contracts. So it's either Zeno scales or no one scales for me.
Killua does ignore durability, if you want to change that make a CRT.
Although I do think it's possible for Hunters to get that high since they're superior to Morel in Nen Manipulation, they aren't that high (in terms of defence) unless proven to be.
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it isn't baseless. Morel, zeno, kite and ranmaru killua all had hatsu that allowed them to affect, threaten, defend from, or outright surpass royal guard stats.Damage3245 said:
It isn't blanket scaling. I'm not sure how much clearer i can make that. Morel gets it for smokey jail durability, zeno gets it for full body dragon, netero gets it for buddha, silva gets it for his spirit bombs, etc. I already outlined the nuances of how it would scale.
And yes nen is still an energy system. You don't take exceptions to the rule (limitations, hax nen like knov's, contracts, etc) and throw out the rule...Those are explicitly different cases based on mechanics of nen outlined. Doesn't mean we don't apply it where applicable. Morel supplying nen enough to tank rage blast via manipulation is no difference potency wise than zeno using nen to make his dragon powerful. The energy still needs to come from somewhere. And if Morel is strong enough to supply said energy, as well as zeno, then conparable hunters should be capable of doing stuff with their top end stuff if applicable (a case like illumi would be one where he doesn't scale because his hatsu is not AP or durability based).
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> Morel supplying nen enough to tank rage blast via manipulation is no difference potency wise than zeno using nen to make his dragon powerful. The energy still needs to come from somewhere.
No, it doesn't, as we've been trying to tell you.
That's not going to be accepted.
No, it doesn't, as we've been trying to tell you.
That's not going to be accepted.
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Again, no one here is accepting that, I've addressed basically everything in that post. If you want to debate it then hit me up on my message wall or discord. I will not be responding to derailing again.
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Someone already has agreed with me and neither of you have used manga evidence or stayed away from responding with fallacies so I mean, we can agree to disagree until the conclusion of the thread :shrugsDamage3245 said:
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Well guys we did it.
The upgrades are very likely going to go through.
The upgrades are very likely going to go through.
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Hell YES! HxH getting upgrades is like an early Christmas present lol.NotoriouSoda said:
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It's promising but we shouldn't celebrate too early. After this we have the task of scaling human Nen users, which is far more difficult since they don't have much calcs to go on, only scaling and statements.
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The scaling you proposed to me before looked really solid tbh.
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That was made when I thought the Royal Guards were High 7-C. Since they seem to be getting upgraded to Low 7-B it makes things more difficult because while yes, the RG are above the high-end Hunters, the gap is not AS big as what some people in the community seem to believe.
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Are you gonna make a scaling thread once the final verdict of these upgrades is done Urien? Also did you check out the speed calcs I posted? I think those would end up with some bumps as well for certain people.
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Most likely yes.
I also know the speed calcs need to be evaluated too but I feel like it's too much for now with the forum move.
I also know the speed calcs need to be evaluated too but I feel like it's too much for now with the forum move.
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true, true.
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Well Netero obviously scales. Zeno probably scales to Pitou. Those two are pretty simple.
I don't see someone like Morel scaling tbh because he was always portrayed as much weaker than the RG in terms of strength. However the gap between Low 7-B and Low 7-C does seem very wide, and the difference certainly wasn't that massive. So that's a problem.
I don't see someone like Morel scaling tbh because he was always portrayed as much weaker than the RG in terms of strength. However the gap between Low 7-B and Low 7-C does seem very wide, and the difference certainly wasn't that massive. So that's a problem.
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Killua being Low 7-C would make things a bit easier, which could mean top tier humans can reach anywhere from 7-C to High 7-C.
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@UchihaSlayer96; why would Zeno scale to Pitou? The two have never exchanged attacks.
Also, why would either of the royal guard's scale to Youpi's aura explosion? It's a power-up that there is no basis of comparing the other two to it.
Also, why would either of the royal guard's scale to Youpi's aura explosion? It's a power-up that there is no basis of comparing the other two to it.
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Huh yeah what are the know speed calcs for HxH.
And quick question, does Isaac scale to the low 7-B?
And quick question, does Isaac scale to the low 7-B?
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He could scale to a casual Netero - He clearly knows what the Guanyin Bodhisattva is which implies Netero uses it in their sparring matches. Although Zeno always loses.
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Definitely with Zero Hand. With his normal attacks maybe not. His attacks didn't do anything to Meruem. He might be High 7-C.NotoriouSoda said:
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Would that be baseline High 7-C?
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@Damage
Pouf definitely doesn't scale to it for obvious reasons. Pitou might though, at least with Post-Mortem Nen since she managed to rip off Gon's arm. In her normal state I am not too sure, but she shouldn't be too far off from Youpi regardless.
As for Zeno he sparred with Netero in the past, although Netero was definitely casual and Zeno lost anyway, and Pitou was excited to fight him as well. But honestly I'd put Zeno at High 7-C.
Yeah thinking about it more Zeno shouldn't scale to the guards, but a casual Netero.
Pouf definitely doesn't scale to it for obvious reasons. Pitou might though, at least with Post-Mortem Nen since she managed to rip off Gon's arm. In her normal state I am not too sure, but she shouldn't be too far off from Youpi regardless.
As for Zeno he sparred with Netero in the past, although Netero was definitely casual and Zeno lost anyway, and Pitou was excited to fight him as well. But honestly I'd put Zeno at High 7-C.
Yeah thinking about it more Zeno shouldn't scale to the guards, but a casual Netero.
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Probably. Netero is physically weaker than even Pouf as stated by Colt, and thousands of his attacks just gave Meruem a dull feeling of pain.NotoriouSoda said:
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Ehh I'm still happy that where getting 7-A+ Meruem, imagine all the matches that can be made. Also thing that Meruem should scale to Killua speed Post-Rose.
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Youpi tanked his own rage blast. Pitou should scale unless you think she couldn't even harm Youpi.
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Where does Feitan go though?
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