Possible upgrade for Choujin X (VSPA)

[Pedonar]

Currently, the VSPA page states:

• Matter Manipulation & Limited Subjective Reality (All Choujin possess an anomaly referred to as Super Cells. These cells grant them the ability to manipulate Universal Particles, the fundamental particles of everything in the world, allowing them to shape their superhuman abilities into their desired forms)

Based on the series direct statements and feats, it should be Information Manipulation (Type 2), rather than just Matter Manipulation

Reason:

1. Universal Particles = Fundamental Building Blocks:

The series explicitly describes Universal Particles as “the fundamental particles of everything in the world” and notes that “the building blocks of this world are filled with pluripotent cells that can be converted into anything you can imagine.”

This goes beyond physical matter and aligns more with a Metaphysical blueprint of the world, where the rules and structure of existence can be altered directly

2. Super Cells Manipulate These Particles Through Desire:

Super Cells are present throughout not just the universe, but the multiverse, and they operate by reshaping these Universal Particles according to the user's strongest desire, essentially rewriting what reality “should” be for them.

When Batista becomes a Choujin X, he gains the Power to Rewrite the World.

• He unstitches and resews reality like fabric, including space, time, and causality.
• He actively alters timelines toward his desired outcome and observes every possibility.
• These are not just elemental powers, they are direct edits to the fabric of reality.

3. Conclusion:

Limited Information Manipulation (Type 2), Reality Warping, Subjective Reality
(All Choujin possess an anomaly known as Super Cells, which grant them the ability to manipulate Universal Particles, the fundamental building blocks of reality. This allows them to shape reality based on their strongest desire, resulting in diverse and highly personalized powers. While all Choujin share this core mechanism, the actual abilities they manifest vary entirely depending on their desire. The most powerful among them, known as Choujin X and can reshape the fabric of existence through abilities like manipulating causality, controlling time, and warping reality itself)
Average Choujins:

Limited Information Manipulation (Type 2) & Subjective Reality (All Choujins have Super Cells that let them control Universal Particles, the basic building blocks of their world. These particles respond to the user’s strongest desire, creating powers based on will. Most Choujins can only bend reality in small, personal ways, like during their transformation or when first using their powers.)

High tiers (Comparable to Batista):
Information Manipulation (Type 2) & Reality Warping (Some rare Choujins, like Batista, take this system to the extreme. Instead of just creating powers, they reshape reality itself — altering space, time, and causality by will alone. Their abilities go beyond physics, effectively rewriting how the world works around them)

 

[Pedonar]

Bump

 

[Arkenis]

It's talking about what builds our world and then telling us that those are filled with pluripotent particles. Type 2 info would be a step below that in building our world, it would be what controls how the super cells function. At most I'd say this is macro quantum or that they have particles in the world that go even smaller than that. Also Batista, as stated, is an unprecedented situation, meaning even the past Choujin Xs' never had this type of power, it's not logical to base everyone's ability off what he can do as the Choujin X honestly.

 

[Arkenis]

• These are not just elemental powers, they are direct edits to the fabric of reality.

Elementary particle manipulation can also do this.

 

[Pedonar]

I think it might be the other way around in the context

The story doesn’t treat Super Cells as some kind of tool that characters consciously control. Instead, they seem like a part of the user, almost like their desires are directly fused into how the cells work. Choujin powers aren’t built on fixed rules or templates. They’re shaped by whatever the user wants most, and the world bends around that. That fits with how Type 2 Information Manipulation works: it’s not about moving stuff physically, but about changing how reality functions based on inner will

And when Batista awakens as a Choujin X, that’s exactly what happens. He’s not just shooting beams or doing flashy attacks, he’s literally unstitching and resewing space, time, and causality like threads. He’s rewriting how events play out to match his intended outcome. That’s way beyond just manipulating matter or energy. It’s reality editing.

So instead of saying that Information Manipulation is behind how Super Cells work, it makes more sense that the Super Cells are the mechanism that enables this kind of deep-level manipulation. The desire activates them, and they restructure reality accordingly. That’s a lot closer to Type 2 Information Manip than it is to something like advanced quantum or matter manipulation.

 

[Arkenis]

The story doesn’t treat Super Cells as some kind of tool that characters consciously control. Instead, they seem like a part of the user, almost like their desires are directly fused into how the cells work. Choujin powers aren’t built on fixed rules or templates. They’re shaped by whatever the user wants most, and the world bends around that. That fits with how Type 2 Information Manipulation works: it’s not about moving stuff physically, but about changing how reality functions based on inner will

The desire activates them, and they restructure reality accordingly. That’s a lot closer to Type 2 Information Manip than it is to something like advanced quantum or matter manipulation.

You can describe it as type 2 but that doesn't make it so. It does treat it as something they control, the explanation says they control the particles. It doesn't matter that it's through inner will or imagination.

And when Batista awakens as a Choujin X, that’s exactly what happens. He’s not just shooting beams or doing flashy attacks, he’s literally unstitching and resewing space, time, and causality like threads. He’s rewriting how events play out to match his intended outcome. That’s way beyond just manipulating matter or energy. It’s reality editing.

Yeah but like I said, which you didn't respond to, he's the Choujin X, they state the situation in reference to his power, is unprecedented. He can't be an example of how the entire power system works.

 

[Pedonar]

You can describe it as type 2 but that doesn't make it so. It does treat it as something they control, the explanation says they control the particles. It doesn't matter that it's through inner will or imagination.


Yeah but like I said, which you didn't respond to, he's the Choujin X, they state the situation in reference to his power, is unprecedented. He can't be an example of how the entire power system works.

Even if Batista is unprecedented in scale, his powers still come from the same system (Super Cells) The core mechanic doesn’t change; it’s just taken to its full potential in his case. So while he might not represent what every Choujin can do, he does show what the system is fundamentally capable of.

Also, what Batista did goes way beyond just macro quantum effects. He didn’t just shift particles, he altered causality itself, reshaped timelines, and stitched reality based on his will. That level of reality restructuring shows something deeper than advanced matter or energy control.

 

[Arkenis]

Even if Batista is unprecedented in scale, his powers still come from the same system (Super Cells) The core mechanic doesn’t change; it’s just taken to its full potential in his case. So while he might not represent what every Choujin can do, he does show what the system is fundamentally capable of.

It shows what he's capable of. Something being unprecedented definitionally makes it new compared to anything before it.

Also, what Batista did goes way beyond just macro quantum effects. He didn’t just shift particles, he altered causality itself, reshaped timelines, and stitched reality based on his will. That level of reality restructuring shows something deeper than advanced matter or energy control.

Not necessarily. This is fiction, matter manipulation in a world can be anything the author chooses. If they deem manipulating elementary particles to such an extent that causality can be manipulated then that's what it is. That's also semi incorrect, he isn't flatout manipulating causality but more so what causality functions in which is space-time and all he's doing is distorting it to replace parts of the timeline with others. This is fundamentally related back to his original gravity ability combined with Nue's stitching ability and the energy he gained, he got the ability to manipulate gravity to this great of an extent.

Also from what I've seen be rejected and accepted, the fact this is consistently referring to the super cells as particles and that building blocks is in reference to what makes up the world, not what controls how the world functions which is what info 2 is, this wouldn't get accepted.

 

[Pedonar]

It shows what he's capable of. Something being unprecedented definitionally makes it new compared to anything before it.

Just because something is unprecedented doesn’t mean it’s outside the system; it just means no one’s taken it that far before. Batista didn’t get his powers from some separate source; he’s still using Super Cells and Universal Particles like every other Choujin. The only difference is that he pushed it to the extreme. So even if others can’t copy him, he still shows what the system is capable of when pushed to its limit.

Not necessarily. This is fiction, matter manipulation in a world can be anything the author chooses. If they deem manipulating elementary particles to such an extent that causality can be manipulated then that's what it is. That's also semi incorrect, he isn't flatout manipulating causality but more so what causality functions in which is space-time and all he's doing is distorting it to replace parts of the timeline with others. This is fundamentally related back to his original gravity ability combined with Nue's stitching ability and the energy he gained, he got the ability to manipulate gravity to this great of an extent.

Also from what I've seen be rejected and accepted, the fact this is consistently referring to the super cells as particles and that building blocks is in reference to what makes up the world, not what controls how the world functions which is what info 2 is, this wouldn't get accepted.

Sure, fiction lets you stretch what that means. But there’s a big difference between messing with physics and straight-up skipping over it. Batista isn’t just playing with gravity or space-time. He’s changing outcomes. He’s picking and replacing parts of reality like it’s an editable timeline. That’s not bending the medium; that’s overriding the result. Calling it “just gravity manipulation” really undersells what’s happening.

And yeah, Super Cells are called “particles,” but that doesn’t automatically make them purely physical. The story says they’re filled with “pluripotent cells that can become anything you imagine.” That’s not normal particle behavior; it implies open-ended potential based on thought or will. That kind of flexibility lines up more with an informational framework than physical matter.

And if you check the actual Matter Manipulation page, it stops at manipulating particles and physical structures. Batista goes past that, affecting causality, timelines that fit much more closely with what Type 2 Information Manipulation is defined as.

 

[Arkenis]

Just because something is unprecedented doesn’t mean it’s outside the system; it just means no one’s taken it that far before. Batista didn’t get his powers from some separate source; he’s still using Super Cells and Universal Particles like every other Choujin. The only difference is that he pushed it to the extreme. So even if others can’t copy him, he still shows what the system is capable of when pushed to its limit.

No it doesn't. An unprecedented event in a system is definitionally creating something never experienced before, it would be outside of it contextually. Doesn't matter if the power system is the same, Batista is doing something:

• fresh
• new
• novel
• original
• strange
• unaccustomed
• unfamiliar
• unheard-of
• unknown

And yeah, Super Cells are called “particles,” but that doesn’t automatically make them purely physical. The story says they’re filled with “pluripotent cells that can become anything you imagine.” That’s not normal particle behavior; it implies open-ended potential based on thought or will. That kind of flexibility lines up more with an informational framework than physical matter.

Still wrong. It says the world's building blocks are filled with the pluripotent particles. And so what if it's not normal? It's fiction, still doesn't mean they're nonphysical particles. "it implies open-ended potential based on thought or will" This does not matter, numerous verses' power system run on imagination/will, doesn't make it more close to info 2.

And if you check the actual Matter Manipulation page, it stops at manipulating particles and physical structures. Batista goes past that, affecting causality, timelines that fit much more closely with what Type 2 Information Manipulation is defined as.

You're not responding to what I'm saying and you're wrong, quantum isn't physical by definition, and matter manip can interact with nonphysical phenomena like gravity or space. I addressed this causality point:

That's also semi incorrect, he isn't flatout manipulating causality but more so what causality functions in which is space-time and all he's doing is distorting it to replace parts of the timeline with others. This is fundamentally related back to his original gravity ability combined with Nue's stitching ability and the energy he gained, he got the ability to manipulate gravity to this great of an extent.

Batista is distorting space-time to effectively do causality manip, that's not purely affecting causality manip.

 

[FinePoint]

Initially I was going to reject this just on the basis of them being "particles" which aligns more with other abilities, but after reading through Pedonar's explanations of how they actually function, they do seem to very closely align with our definition of Type 2 Information rather than traditional quantum building blocks, and so I think this is probably fine.

It's not super intuitive, but there is more ways to qualify than just the traditional one, and ultimately fiction can use any word they want, even if it's inaccurate, and it doesn't affect our standards here. (See: Universes called "Dimensions".)

 

[Elizhaa]

These proposals seem fine.

 

[Pedonar]

No it doesn't. An unprecedented event in a system is definitionally creating something never experienced before, it would be outside of it contextually. Doesn't matter if the power system is the same, Batista is doing something:

• fresh
• new
• novel
• original
• strange
• unaccustomed
• unfamiliar
• unheard-of
• unknown

You said “it doesn’t matter if the power system is the same,” but I think it actually does. Batista didn’t tap into some foreign source or break the system’s rules. He used the same Super Cells and Universal Particles as everyone else. The fact that his power is unprecedented just means no one else took it that far before. It’s like someone discovering a new move in a game everyone’s been playing

Still wrong. It says the world's building blocks are filled with the pluripotent particles. And so what if it's not normal? It's fiction, still doesn't mean they're nonphysical particles. "it implies open-ended potential based on thought or will" This does not matter, numerous verses' power system run on imagination/will, doesn't make it more close to info 2.


You're not responding to what I'm saying and you're wrong, quantum isn't physical by definition, and matter manip can interact with nonphysical phenomena like gravity or space. I addressed this causality point:

Batista is distorting space-time to effectively do causality manip, that's not purely affecting causality manip.

Yeah, I get what you’re saying, you’re right that quantum stuff isn’t always “physical” in the classical sense, and sure, in fiction, matter manipulation can definitely cover things like space and gravity. No argument there.

But I think the key difference is in how far Batista’s powers go.

He’s not just stretching space-time or stitching it back together. What he’s doing is actually picking a completely different point in the timeline, like grabbing an alternate version of the past, and forcing that to overwrite what’s currently real. That’s not just bending physics, that’s changing what reality considers true.

He’s not rewinding things like a tape; he’s saying “this version of the past is more convenient” and then inserting it into the present. That’s a choice-driven overwrite of reality, not just manipulation of matter or energy.

 

[Pedonar]

Initially I was going to reject this just on the basis of them being "particles" which aligns more with other abilities, but after reading through Pedonar's explanations of how they actually function, they do seem to very closely align with our definition of Type 2 Information rather than traditional quantum building blocks, and so I think this is probably fine.

It's not super intuitive, but there is more ways to qualify than just the traditional one, and ultimately fiction can use any word they want, even if it's inaccurate, and it doesn't affect our standards here. (See: Universes called "Dimensions".)

These proposals seem fine.

Thanks, then I guess the thread can be closed