Pokemon speed revision...screw it, might as well.

[Arceus0x]

You know there's no precision such as "100x+ gap" when the games consider supersonic as 3rd stage speed. That's just being dishonest here.

Might as well ask to scale all Pokemon to the legendaries because they didn't get an infinite blitz difference.

and yet still, there is no evidence that there are colossal gaps in between the evolutions when they constantly fight each other.

When it comes to legendaries, it is often a rare occurrence and even more often an outlier where a legendary is matched by a lower tier pokemon.

There is evidence of legendaries being faster, there isn't of different stages being slower than each other by colossal margins.

 

[Imaginym]

What conclusions have been sufficiently accepted so as to be implemented so far?

Can I get a summary of the current ongoing issue(s) here?

 

[Arceus0x]

What conclusions have been sufficiently accepted so as to be implemented so far?

Can I get a summary of the current ongoing issue(s) here?

It is accepted overall however there are those who disagree saying that if we're equalizing the speed might as well equalize ap and besides that i haven't actually seen the counterarguments.

 

[Imaginym]

I mean, I guess the franchise does often present Pokemon of different stages being at mostly similar speeds.

Is there evidence to the contrary? That is, what evidence does the series present that different stages are at vastly different speeds?
Affirmative evidence, please, rather than indicating lacks of evidence.

AFAIK, we mostly segregated stages by stats to simplify the statistics sorting; Dodging sound, electricity or light-based moves are largely possible for Pokemon of many different stages.
Pokemon are stronger, faster, etc. after evolving, but not to the extremes we present them as.

Presuming that the peak of lower stages is say, Transonic or whatever, without evidence in support of that seems kind of suspect, especially when most of the Pokemon stage stat scaling system was to simplify sorting.

& AFAIK, in the anime, newly evolved Pokemon, do tend to overcome opponents they couldn't before, even when it's a matter of stats.
But by contrast, there are instances in the anime & such of lower stages having difficulty damaging higher stages, as opposed to matching in speed, right?


Pokemon presents statistics very inconsistently, so we need to be careful how we manage it, I think.

 

[Arceus0x]

i mean here's a new born Riolu child 1v1ing a wild Onix


This proves my point even further

 

[Imaginym]

i mean here's a new born Riolu child 1v1ing a wild Onix


This proves my point even further

Your point being that lower stages can match the speed of higher stages, right?
If so, I don't see much reason to disagree currently, so I tentatively support it.

 

[Arceus0x]

Your point being that lower stages can match the speed of higher stages, right?
If so, I don't see much reason to disagree currently, so I tentatively support it.

thanks.

Now i need the support of another mod and we're done here

 

[Arceus0x]

Bump

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Those are trained Pokemon, you can't use them to scale to regular wild Pokemon. Especially if its Ash Ketchum himself

 

[Arceus0x]

Those are trained Pokemon, you can't use them to scale to regular wild Pokemon. Especially if its Ash Ketchum himself

Just because those are trained doesn't mean they are 1000x faster than the average pokemon. Our wiki uses lvl 100 max IV EV full power wild pokemon, not newborn wild pokemon.
i provided a video above where a newborn (literally less than 30 minutes old) riolu baby beating the crap out of a wild Onix. Neither have ever been trained yet they match each other.
Ash's pikachu in the instance i provided wasn't as well trained as it currently is, in fact that was the pikachu back when it got its ass handed to it every other fight.

there are more examples of pokemon matching each other's speed and there is 0 evidence against that besides the fact that there is indeed a speed difference between them, just no a crazy one.

 

[FinePoint]

thanks.

Now i need the support of another mod and we're done here

According to Ant, only Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats matter for normal CRTs.
So the relevant votes are as follows:

Agree:
Disagree: QuasiYuri,
Neutral: GyroNutz (But seemed to be leaning towards disagree), LordGriffin1000

Which means this CRT is leaning towards being rejected. You would need two, maybe three more staff to agree to change that.

 

[Arceus0x]

According to Ant, only Mods, Admins, and Bureaucrats matter for normal CRTs.
So the relevant votes are as follows:

Agree:
Disagree: QuasiYuri,
Neutral: GyroNutz (But seemed to be leaning towards disagree), LordGriffin1000

Which means this CRT is leaning towards being rejected. You would need two, maybe three more staff to agree to change that.

Psychomaster agreed

And i already refuted most disagreements either way. The main disagreement is that we're doing it for the speed then why not for the AP? My response is that this is my thread and i wanna revise speed, not Ap and if they wanna do that then they should do it in another thread

 

[FinePoint]

Psychomaster agreed

And i already refuted most disagreements either way. The main disagreement is that we're doing it for the speed then why not for the AP? My response is that this is my thread and i wanna revise speed, not Ap and if they wanna do that then they should do it in another thread

Psychomaster is only in the calc group, and this isn't a calculation.

Anyways, the point they're making is that there's a lot of "anybody can fight anybody" in Pokemon, and generally we know that pokemon get faster when they evolve. The counter-examples you gave were game mechanics from a game where a beaver can fight god, so... even if those ones do get slower, others don't.

 

[Arceus0x]

To be fair, mobility isn't really what we mean by speed

Gyro, what are your thoughts? I am neither mentally nor physically prepared to pull out another complete AP overhaul for this verse, i just wanna fix the nonsensical speed ratings.
I've provided another example of a newborn transonic character surpassing a Massively Hypersonic character, at this point this ain't even funny

 

[GyroNutz]

I mean I don't think you can do one without the other really. Otherwise it's just cherry-picking the one that's more likely to be accepted.

Just because those are trained doesn't mean they are 1000x faster than the average pokemon. Our wiki uses lvl 100 max IV EV full power wild pokemon, not newborn wild pokemon.

I also dislike this argument. Fiction is hardly ever going to care about our multipliers and maths, that'd just make for a boring narrative. Realistically speaking, there isn't a literal infinite AP difference between, say, Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon, but because the latter isn't in Rayquaza's ballpark, they wouldn't scale.

 

[Arceus0x]

Psychomaster is only in the calc group, and this isn't a calculation.

Anyways, the point they're making is that there's a lot of "anybody can fight anybody" in Pokemon, and generally we know that pokemon get faster when they evolve. The counter-examples you gave were game mechanics from a game where a beaver can fight god, so... even if those ones do get slower, others don't.

Are you bsing me at this point? I use game-mechanics one time as a microscopic example that can support this claim and y'all latch on to it like a lamprey latches on to a victim, forget it already, my arguments were based on everything else.

There are countless examples of pokemon fighting each other. There is NO evidence that they become 1000 or 100000 times faster. NONE.
We are basing this on "muh outliers" "muh they become faster" when there is minimal evidence of those gaps existing at all.
Do you even realize how bs this whole thing is? A Riolu evolves into a lucario and becomes 874030x faster, this makes no sense at all.

 

[GyroNutz]

If you feel that baby, first/second stages are rated too low, then find speed feats for them. If they are treated as being as fast as later stage Pokemon, then they should have feats to reflect this somewhere.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Just because those are trained doesn't mean they are 1000x faster than the average pokemon. Our wiki uses lvl 100 max IV EV full power wild pokemon, not newborn wild pokemon.
i provided a video above where a newborn (literally less than 30 minutes old) riolu baby beating the crap out of a wild Onix. Neither have ever been trained yet they match each other.
Ash's pikachu in the instance i provided wasn't as well trained as it currently is, in fact that was the pikachu back when it got its ass handed to it every other fight.

there are more examples of pokemon matching each other's speed and there is 0 evidence against that besides the fact that there is indeed a speed difference between them, just no a crazy one.

We got no idea how much stronger they got anyways. If we don't know, then it would be unknown how many times faster a trained pokemon is.

That is also Ash's Riolu, who I can assure you is one of the strongest non legendaries in the verse. He even blocked Ash's Pikachu's Iron Tail later on

 

[Arceus0x]

I mean I don't think you can do one without the other really. Otherwise it's just cherry-picking the one that's more likely to be accepted.


I also dislike this argument. Fiction is hardly ever going to care about our multipliers and maths, that'd just make for a boring narrative. Realistically speaking, there isn't a literal infinite AP difference between, say, Mega Rayquaza and Primal Groudon, but because the latter isn't in Rayquaza's ballpark, they wouldn't scale.

look i get it, but we aren't talking legendary scaling here.
We are not talking about fights between legendaries which happen once in God knows how much that have weird and hard to explain implications.

We are talking about normal pokemon scaling which happens IN HALF OF THE EPISODES OF THE 1000 EPISODE ANIME, 100% OF THE GAMES AND THE MANGA.

 

[Arceus0x]

We got no idea how much stronger they got anyways. If we don't know, then it would be unknown how many times faster a trained pokemon is.

That is also Ash's Riolu, who I can assure you is one of the strongest non legendaries in the verse. He even blocked Ash's Pikachu's Iron Tail later on

Did you not read squat of what i just said?
This Riolu was born 30 MINUTES OR SO PRIOR TO THE FIGHT. The Riolu does become super strong later on when it gets a proper bond with ash but in the scene that i provided it was a newborn. It failed to hurt ash prior to that. If this is a "trained overpowered" pokemon for you then idk what to say at this point

 

[FinePoint]

Are you bsing me at this point? I use game-mechanics one time as a microscopic example that can support this claim and y'all latch on to it like a lamprey latches on to a victim, forget it already, my arguments were based on everything else.

I can appreciate your decent use of simile, at least.

There are countless examples of pokemon fighting each other. There is NO evidence that they become 1000 or 100000 times faster. NONE.
We are basing this on "muh outliers" "muh they become faster" when there is minimal evidence of those gaps existing at all.
Do you even realize how bs this whole thing is? A Riolu evolves into a lucario and becomes 874030x faster, this makes no sense at all.

But it does make sense for it to become over 50,000x stronger?
Why does the size of the multiplier matter? It's not as if the Pokemon company is doing math here.

 

[Arceus0x]

I can appreciate your decent use of simile, at least.

But it does make sense for it to become over 50,000x stronger?
Why does the size of the multiplier matter? It's not as if the Pokemon company is doing math here.

it doesn't make sense, but i don't give a shit. I am not doing an ap revision, not by myself at least. I had to update a few hundred pokemon pages and got my most help from Gyro and barely anyone else (some profiles were updated by others but i just found out that Steelix is still 7-A). I have covid, i have fever, i don't want to overhaul an entire verse after arguin for Arceus knows for how long for the thread to get properly accepted.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

If you feel that baby, first/second stages are rated too low, then find speed feats for them. If they are treated as being as fast as later stage Pokemon, then they should have feats to reflect this somewhere.

How do we treat solar beam being used by them?

 

[Arceus0x]

How do we treat solar beam being used by them?

idk everyone just seems to close their eyes on that or sth

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Did you not read squat of what i just said?
This Riolu was born 30 MINUTES OR SO PRIOR TO THE FIGHT. The Riolu does become super strong later on when it gets a proper bond with ash but in the scene that i provided it was a newborn. It failed to hurt ash prior to that. If this is a "trained overpowered" pokemon for you then idk what to say at this point

It doesn't need training to be stronger. A Pokemon's power can be multiplied by many times when they fight to protect their trainer, which is what Riolu was trying to do here. A trainer trusting their Pokemon and showing care, concern and more can also multiply the Pokemon's strength by many times. Ash has already survived hits from fully evolved pokemon on many occassions, so that's not an anti-feat

Just 9 episodes later with also almost no training except for 1 fight against Ash's Mr Mime, Riolu casually blocks hits from Goh's Beedrill who before any training at all was the strongest Beedrill out of another swarm of several Beedrill.

And without any training other than the fight against Onix where it lost, Riolu could destroy Ash's Mr Mime's Reflect in one shot, who blocked a trained Hariyama's attacks with 0 difficulty. This Hariyama sent a trained Metagross flying and KOs it in one shot. Its clear that a talented trainer can just massively increase a Pokemon's power just by caring for it

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Also, just saying that there are a lot, and I mean a lot of feats of dodging light that you guys never missed

This is why everyone here needs to watch the Pokemon anime, like there's so many feats you guys never seen before. Like remember how we got Dynamax Pokemon to Island level based off of 2 scenes no more than 2 minutes long?

 

[Arceus0x]

It doesn't need training to be stronger. A Pokemon's power can be multiplied by many times when they fight to protect their trainer, which is what Riolu was trying to do here. A trainer trusting their Pokemon and showing care, concern and more can also multiply the Pokemon's strength by many times. Ash has already survived hits from fully evolved pokemon on many occassions, so that's not an anti-feat

Just 9 episodes later with also almost no training except for 1 fight against Ash's Mr Mime, Riolu casually blocks hits from Goh's Beedrill who before any training at all was the strongest Beedrill out of another swarm of several Beedrill.

And without any training other than the fight against Onix where it lost, Riolu could destroy Ash's Mr Mime's Reflect in one shot, who blocked a trained Hariyama's attacks with 0 difficulty. This Hariyama sent a trained Metagross flying and KOs it in one shot. Its clear that a talented trainer can just massively increase a Pokemon's power just by caring for it

and yet that doesn't change the fact that the instance i provided is still an untrained newborn Riolu

 

[Arceus0x]

Also, just saying that there are a lot, and I mean a lot of feats of dodging light that you guys never missed

This is why everyone here needs to watch the Pokemon anime, like there's so many feats you guys never seen before. Like remember how we got Dynamax Pokemon to Island level based off of 2 scenes no more than 2 minutes long?

Then give it to us. Where are those feats. We ain't rewatching 1100+ episodes for a few feats that may be and may not be there.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Then give it to us. Where are those feats. We ain't rewatching 1100+ episodes for a few feats that may be and may not be there.

Ok, fine then. I will list them on your other CRT

 

[Arceus0x]

Ok, fine then. I will list them on your other CRT

thank you

 

[Coolboy6]

I agree with this crt. Why are people saying it’s game mechanics if anime scans are being shown in the OP?

 

[FinePoint]

I agree with this crt. Why are people saying it’s game mechanics if anime scans are being shown in the OP?

He also brought up game mechanics in one of the sections, idk if you read the whole thing.

 

[Arceus0x]

I agree with this crt. Why are people saying it’s game mechanics if anime scans are being shown in the OP?

oh they're TRAAAAINED pokemon which means they are absolutely 1000000x faster than any living being within the vicinity

 

[Arceus0x]

He also brought up game mechanics in one of the sections, idk if you read the whole thing.

 

[Foxthefox1000]

If it's not game mechanics it then becomes an outlier lol

I love the mental gymnastics in some threads. Outlier and game mechanics get thrown far too much but if you use them to support a rating suddenly it's like "woah, buddy, slow down"

 

[FinePoint]

I have covid, i have fever, i don't want to overhaul an entire verse after arguin for Arceus knows for how long for the thread to get properly accepted.

Do you actually have covid?

 

[XXKINGXX69]

I posted 6 scans of reacting to light

 

[Arceus0x]

Do you actually have covid?

yeah, it sucks and it hurts

 

[FinePoint]

I posted 6 scans of reacting to light

1. Fully Evolved and Trained
2. 2nd Stage and Trained
3. 2nd Stage and Trained
4. Fully Evolved and Trained
5. Equivalent to 2nd Stage and Trained
6. Fully Evolved and Trained

 

[FinePoint]

yeah, it sucks and it hurts

I'm sorry to hear that, I hope you get better soon.
Don't push yourself too hard.