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Pokemon Immeasurable Speed Upgrade
- Thread starter Xerkser500
- Start date
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@Shadow
Never implied the "any object approaching the speed of light automatically gains infinite mass" logic is true, which would be a strawman you make up & used that as a quick excuse to dodge my actual point of how various characters who are capable of time traveling with sheer speed alone are considered to be at bare minimum FTL (once again, not infinite nor immeasurable), which is proven to be true by General Relativity and my point still stands since it wasn't disproven by anyone here as of right now.
Never implied the "any object approaching the speed of light automatically gains infinite mass" logic is true, which would be a strawman you make up & used that as a quick excuse to dodge my actual point of how various characters who are capable of time traveling with sheer speed alone are considered to be at bare minimum FTL (once again, not infinite nor immeasurable), which is proven to be true by General Relativity and my point still stands since it wasn't disproven by anyone here as of right now.
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You said "literally all fictions do that."
What I'm saying is that it's blatantly false. Yes, some fictions do that, but plenty of others don't. You have to keep in mind that it's fiction so it doesn't have to follow real-life physics.
Otherwise by your logic any FTL character can time travel by default.
What I'm saying is that it's blatantly false. Yes, some fictions do that, but plenty of others don't. You have to keep in mind that it's fiction so it doesn't have to follow real-life physics.
Otherwise by your logic any FTL character can time travel by default.
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Saying any FTL to MFTL character can just time travel on a whim is like saying fish that can jump high out of the water can perform actual flight.
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That's not exactly accurate. While we don't know if it's possible, there is a theorized occurrence that would cause thing moving past the speed of light to move backwards in time rather than forwards.Dragopentling said:
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I think it would be inconsistent with the verse even if Darkrai's feat is legit, which I doubt in and of itself.
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ok...then explain....for example...Assaltwaffle said:
Is Tachibana Hibiki, mentioned to be FTL due to dodging lasers equivalent to light....automatically capable of time travel? I didn't see her automatically warping through the future each time she dodges at that speed. Or is just pure inaccuracy due to comparisons?
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I'm not saying that we should treat FTL as time travel in fiction. I'm saying under theoretical physics this is what FTL entails.
Also it is to the past, not future.
Also it is to the past, not future.
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@Shadow
As in, they follow the basic logic of what General Relativity explains in regards to time travel being achieved by sheer speed will give the character a bare minimum FTL rating, not the other way around, which seems to me that you keep misunderstanding that part.
"Otherwise by your logic, any FTL character can time travel by default"
Obviously not my logic, I'm clearly claiming the exact opposite of this and I'm going to explain it in one of the simplest ways possible:
"FTL characters can automatically Time Travel" = False
"According to General Relativity, characters who are capable of time traveling through the method of using sheer speed can be given the/qualified the bare minimum FTL speed rating" = True
As in, they follow the basic logic of what General Relativity explains in regards to time travel being achieved by sheer speed will give the character a bare minimum FTL rating, not the other way around, which seems to me that you keep misunderstanding that part.
"Otherwise by your logic, any FTL character can time travel by default"
Obviously not my logic, I'm clearly claiming the exact opposite of this and I'm going to explain it in one of the simplest ways possible:
"FTL characters can automatically Time Travel" = False
"According to General Relativity, characters who are capable of time traveling through the method of using sheer speed can be given the/qualified the bare minimum FTL speed rating" = True
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- Thread starter
- #51
Sorry im late. Was very busy. Here now. And my counters for Magi are all in this reply.
1.) "if you're only moving backward through time (time travel) and that's it, then it would be safe to say that you clearly aren't immeasurable in any way, shape, or form.
For the part I Italicized, where are you getting this from? Because Darkrai clearly didn't only do that. At all.
And the bit about Note 5 also isn't a counter either since Darkrai obviously did go foward and backwards through time when attacking Grovyle and the player, or else he'd be stuck in a future point in time. Your point is also referring to when Darkrai traveled through the dimensional hole.
Which is, again, not the feat that would justify Darkrai's immeasurable speed.
2.) Your still continuing to use arguments that my OP debunked from the beginning of this thread.
Did Darkrai use a dimensional hole later on? Yes. But that was never because he needed it.
It was because he was weakened from battle. Darkrai, again, faced Cresselia and the 2 protags. The former who's already his equal and the latter 2 who could fight and defeat Primal Dialga.
That easily explains for Darkrai needing to use a dimensional hole at that point. Because he was too physically weakened to use sheer speed as an escape option.
3.) >Somehow attacking someone by using a time portal ("dimensional hole") which works exactly like a time machine you appear out of and simply attacking someone with your speed (I mean how on Earth would a Grovyle be able to react to that if we assume the "this is immeasurable because he used his speed to attack them"
Because, once again, Darkrai didn't use a time portal to attack Groyvle and the player. Or, at the very least, likely wouldnt use it. You keep dancing around this counter,
I already specified this issue from the beginning. Darkrai cannot control the path of which his dimensional holes will lead him too. He can open them at will, yes, but he cannot control where they go throughout time. Whether it goes into the past or into the future is completely out of Darkrai's control. As such, why would Darkrai purposely use a hax he can't fully manipulate to try stopping beings who pose a serious threat to his plan? Unless you want to speculate that he was simply lucky, the answer is he wouldn't. It would be stupid to use an ability that can easily do more harm than good and trying to argue otherwise is not an effective way to deny this upgrade.
So stop thinking Darkrai used time portals to attack them. The likelyhood of that happening is literally close to, if not, 0.
4.) Of course Darkrai still had enough energy to move.
Doesn't mean Darkrai could escape them. Unless you want to argue someone equal to Darkrai alone...can't catch Darkrai after he gets his ass handed to him by that equal.
1.) "if you're only moving backward through time (time travel) and that's it, then it would be safe to say that you clearly aren't immeasurable in any way, shape, or form.
For the part I Italicized, where are you getting this from? Because Darkrai clearly didn't only do that. At all.
And the bit about Note 5 also isn't a counter either since Darkrai obviously did go foward and backwards through time when attacking Grovyle and the player, or else he'd be stuck in a future point in time. Your point is also referring to when Darkrai traveled through the dimensional hole.
Which is, again, not the feat that would justify Darkrai's immeasurable speed.
2.) Your still continuing to use arguments that my OP debunked from the beginning of this thread.
Did Darkrai use a dimensional hole later on? Yes. But that was never because he needed it.
It was because he was weakened from battle. Darkrai, again, faced Cresselia and the 2 protags. The former who's already his equal and the latter 2 who could fight and defeat Primal Dialga.
That easily explains for Darkrai needing to use a dimensional hole at that point. Because he was too physically weakened to use sheer speed as an escape option.
3.) >Somehow attacking someone by using a time portal ("dimensional hole") which works exactly like a time machine you appear out of and simply attacking someone with your speed (I mean how on Earth would a Grovyle be able to react to that if we assume the "this is immeasurable because he used his speed to attack them"
Because, once again, Darkrai didn't use a time portal to attack Groyvle and the player. Or, at the very least, likely wouldnt use it. You keep dancing around this counter,
I already specified this issue from the beginning. Darkrai cannot control the path of which his dimensional holes will lead him too. He can open them at will, yes, but he cannot control where they go throughout time. Whether it goes into the past or into the future is completely out of Darkrai's control. As such, why would Darkrai purposely use a hax he can't fully manipulate to try stopping beings who pose a serious threat to his plan? Unless you want to speculate that he was simply lucky, the answer is he wouldn't. It would be stupid to use an ability that can easily do more harm than good and trying to argue otherwise is not an effective way to deny this upgrade.
So stop thinking Darkrai used time portals to attack them. The likelyhood of that happening is literally close to, if not, 0.
4.) Of course Darkrai still had enough energy to move.
Doesn't mean Darkrai could escape them. Unless you want to argue someone equal to Darkrai alone...can't catch Darkrai after he gets his ass handed to him by that equal.
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@Xerkser
1. Yes, Darkrai only did that and what I specifically meant in said context (which I mentioned previously) is that he clearly can't be in both places at the same time (by places I mean time periods & by time periods, I mean past or future). As a being with immeasurable speed (which Darkrai isn't one of them) wouldn't need time portals ("dimensional holes") or anything that works exactly like a time machine to go to the past/future because you would already be there (not through Nigh-Omnipresence but by physically being there with speed alone).
Not to mention that if Darkrai was presumed to be immeasurable, why would he need to go back to the past or return to his future if he's already there without leaving the current time period he's in with his speed? Lastly, time portals ("dimensional holes") =/= your speed. That's me saying that crossing through portals that can take me to any dimension instantly will give me infinite speed by default which is the same analogy as your "crossing through a dimensional hole to a different time period (past/future) = Immeasurable speed" logic that is very inaccurate.
2. Your OP was rather in a form of denial which didn't disprove any of my major points but were just misconceptions due to misunderstanding the qualifications of immeasurable speed.
Yea, which is considered as an actual limitation to his speed because he couldn't simply used his speed to go back to the past or future without the time portal ("dimensional hole," this may probably be the last time I'll mention the term like this, so I'll refer it as time portal and you would already know what I mean by that term). Yes, he was weakened but wasn't severely damaged until Palkia landed a severe devastating attack on him in the nick of time which lead to his banishment somewhere.
"Because he was too physically weakened to use sheer speed as an escape option."
Oh no, don't start making wild assumptions if you didn't prove that, especially when none of your scans implied this.
1. Yes, Darkrai only did that and what I specifically meant in said context (which I mentioned previously) is that he clearly can't be in both places at the same time (by places I mean time periods & by time periods, I mean past or future). As a being with immeasurable speed (which Darkrai isn't one of them) wouldn't need time portals ("dimensional holes") or anything that works exactly like a time machine to go to the past/future because you would already be there (not through Nigh-Omnipresence but by physically being there with speed alone).
Not to mention that if Darkrai was presumed to be immeasurable, why would he need to go back to the past or return to his future if he's already there without leaving the current time period he's in with his speed? Lastly, time portals ("dimensional holes") =/= your speed. That's me saying that crossing through portals that can take me to any dimension instantly will give me infinite speed by default which is the same analogy as your "crossing through a dimensional hole to a different time period (past/future) = Immeasurable speed" logic that is very inaccurate.
2. Your OP was rather in a form of denial which didn't disprove any of my major points but were just misconceptions due to misunderstanding the qualifications of immeasurable speed.
Yea, which is considered as an actual limitation to his speed because he couldn't simply used his speed to go back to the past or future without the time portal ("dimensional hole," this may probably be the last time I'll mention the term like this, so I'll refer it as time portal and you would already know what I mean by that term). Yes, he was weakened but wasn't severely damaged until Palkia landed a severe devastating attack on him in the nick of time which lead to his banishment somewhere.
"Because he was too physically weakened to use sheer speed as an escape option."
Oh no, don't start making wild assumptions if you didn't prove that, especially when none of your scans implied this.
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@Xerkser
3. My response was being updated for this one and you C+P it too early, so you're going to have repost it and correct your responses.
You misread that statement, Darkrai used the time portal to arrive at their location first (which he can appear out of, I mean where else would you show up from if you time traveled to the past? (You don't need to answer that, its an rhetorical question.)) and then used a quick attack at them.
Which is why Darkrai used Retrocognition (view events in the past) to know about their arrival ahead of time, so that way he'll have enough time to be there to get in their way of their time traveling. Pretty sure if you seen events and know exactly when its going to happen several years in the past, then its safe to say that wouldn't be too much for a hassle Darkrai can't handle really and time traveling to the past gives you plenty of time to be prepared for any major events that might happen in the future.
Darkrai used time portals to reach their location, enough said.
4. Darkrai can simply walk one step into the time portal & disappear somewhere in time (which he just said in one of the scans you provided in your OP) but he was immediately got off-guard, surprised, and stopped by Palkia just in time. Never said they can't catch him, it just wouldn't be easy if Darkrai used the time portal to escape them.
3. My response was being updated for this one and you C+P it too early, so you're going to have repost it and correct your responses.
You misread that statement, Darkrai used the time portal to arrive at their location first (which he can appear out of, I mean where else would you show up from if you time traveled to the past? (You don't need to answer that, its an rhetorical question.)) and then used a quick attack at them.
Which is why Darkrai used Retrocognition (view events in the past) to know about their arrival ahead of time, so that way he'll have enough time to be there to get in their way of their time traveling. Pretty sure if you seen events and know exactly when its going to happen several years in the past, then its safe to say that wouldn't be too much for a hassle Darkrai can't handle really and time traveling to the past gives you plenty of time to be prepared for any major events that might happen in the future.
Darkrai used time portals to reach their location, enough said.
4. Darkrai can simply walk one step into the time portal & disappear somewhere in time (which he just said in one of the scans you provided in your OP) but he was immediately got off-guard, surprised, and stopped by Palkia just in time. Never said they can't catch him, it just wouldn't be easy if Darkrai used the time portal to escape them.
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- Thread starter
- #54
1.) I've probably said this before but i'll say it again just in case.
Immeasurable Speed on this site has no requirement whatsoever about needing to be in 2 different time periods at once. I don't know where you keep getting this idea from, but its not listed on any of the speed pages here. It simply says to travel backwards and fowards through time with sheer speed alone. Simple as that. And I already pointed out why Darkrai used the dimensional hole for, like, the 10th time in this thread.
>Not to mention that if Darkrai was presumed to be immeasurable, why would he need to go back to the past or return to his future if he's already there without leaving the current time period he's in with his speed?
This and the rest of the paragraph after this is just irrelevant to my argument in general. Because not only is it based on false logic, but it's basis is once again based off an instance that im not arguing Darkrai gets Immeasurable Speed for. I don't know why I have to keep saying this for people to see it.
2.) Re-check the speed page and the literal quote Shadow already put here. Moving fowards and backwards through time with speed alone counts as an immeasurable speed feat here, which is the basis of my argument with Darkrai.
Nothing in my OP is misconcepted, it's your argument that is the issue.
Also, what assumptions? Darkrai got flat out beaten by someone who is equal to his capabilties.......and pokemon who could defeat Primal Dialga. There's nothing assumptious about saying Darkrai couldn't physically escape unless, again, you want to argue Cresselia can't catch Darkrai after beating him in battle. Which is ridiculous.
3.) >You misread that statement, Darkrai used the time portal to arrive at their location This entire paragraph is already wrong.
You keep assuming Darkrai reached Grovyle and the player using the dimensional hole, while i've given a concrete counter as to why that isn't and wouldn't be the case. Prove Darkrai used a time portal against them or stop assuming he did.
>Which is why Darkrai used Retrocognition (view events in the past) to know about their arrival ahead of time, so that way he'll have enough time to be there to get in their way of their time traveling.
Means absolutely nothing if Darkrai cannot actually get to them. And that leads us back to square one. Either Darkrai used sheer speed or he dimensional hole'd himself to the 2 mid-time travel. The latter option is not an option since Darkrai cannot control the dimensional hole to take him to where he wants to go, so Darkrai would not be stupid enough to use a risky ability that can easily hinder him more than help him.
So what are left with? Sheer Speed via Occams Razor and it takes the least amount of assumptions.
>Darkrai used time portals to reach their location, enough said.
And that's pure assumption on your part. Prove he did or it's invalid to my argument. Enough said.
4.) Considering the 2 protagonists were outright shown to be worn out from battling Darkrai, im still going to disagree.
Immeasurable Speed on this site has no requirement whatsoever about needing to be in 2 different time periods at once. I don't know where you keep getting this idea from, but its not listed on any of the speed pages here. It simply says to travel backwards and fowards through time with sheer speed alone. Simple as that. And I already pointed out why Darkrai used the dimensional hole for, like, the 10th time in this thread.
>Not to mention that if Darkrai was presumed to be immeasurable, why would he need to go back to the past or return to his future if he's already there without leaving the current time period he's in with his speed?
This and the rest of the paragraph after this is just irrelevant to my argument in general. Because not only is it based on false logic, but it's basis is once again based off an instance that im not arguing Darkrai gets Immeasurable Speed for. I don't know why I have to keep saying this for people to see it.
2.) Re-check the speed page and the literal quote Shadow already put here. Moving fowards and backwards through time with speed alone counts as an immeasurable speed feat here, which is the basis of my argument with Darkrai.
Nothing in my OP is misconcepted, it's your argument that is the issue.
Also, what assumptions? Darkrai got flat out beaten by someone who is equal to his capabilties.......and pokemon who could defeat Primal Dialga. There's nothing assumptious about saying Darkrai couldn't physically escape unless, again, you want to argue Cresselia can't catch Darkrai after beating him in battle. Which is ridiculous.
3.) >You misread that statement, Darkrai used the time portal to arrive at their location This entire paragraph is already wrong.
You keep assuming Darkrai reached Grovyle and the player using the dimensional hole, while i've given a concrete counter as to why that isn't and wouldn't be the case. Prove Darkrai used a time portal against them or stop assuming he did.
>Which is why Darkrai used Retrocognition (view events in the past) to know about their arrival ahead of time, so that way he'll have enough time to be there to get in their way of their time traveling.
Means absolutely nothing if Darkrai cannot actually get to them. And that leads us back to square one. Either Darkrai used sheer speed or he dimensional hole'd himself to the 2 mid-time travel. The latter option is not an option since Darkrai cannot control the dimensional hole to take him to where he wants to go, so Darkrai would not be stupid enough to use a risky ability that can easily hinder him more than help him.
So what are left with? Sheer Speed via Occams Razor and it takes the least amount of assumptions.
>Darkrai used time portals to reach their location, enough said.
And that's pure assumption on your part. Prove he did or it's invalid to my argument. Enough said.
4.) Considering the 2 protagonists were outright shown to be worn out from battling Darkrai, im still going to disagree.
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@Xerkser
1. "Immeasurable Speed on this site has no requirement whatsoever about needing to be in 2 different time periods at once."
Yes it does because 2 different time periods = past and future (inb4 "no it isn't" when the noun definitions of those 2 words says otherwise, hence "period of time" is another way of saying "time period" my guy), which I just said several times during this argument lol.
"It simply says to travel backwards and fowards through time with sheer speed alone"
Idk how this disproves my point when this is what I'm simply explaining to you about and disproving the misconception you created by your false assumption that Darkrai can do both when one of your scans about him explaining about how does he uses the time portal works mention the exact opposite as it literally stated that he can only go either to the past or future (stop misreading Darkrai's text already, this is getting repetitive).
What makes your argument sound worse is that Darkrai started that he can't control which time period does it go and beings with immeasurable speed never have this problem since they can be in 2 time periods, past & future, at the same time unlike Darkrai with his time portal. For last thing you mentioned, I did the same thing as well + why it doesn't give him an immeasurable speed rating too many times for me to count.
2. So you're still completely ignoring the contradictions with that claim as you continue forgetting the fact that not only can't he not be in both 2 different time periods (past & future) at once but also needs to use a time portal (once again, its a clear limitation of his speed since when you go through one, you are given 2 options to pick which time period you want to go to, the past or the future? However, you can only can pick one, not 2. Same case for Darkrai but the thing is that he doesn't have that choice, that time portal automatically selects it for him once he walks inside it), especially when the other reason why time portals are like regular portals because you can go to only 1 location after crossing through one (exactly how in a time machine as well that you can't take yourself to the past & future, even if you wanted to, and can only go to 1 of those specific time periods at a time), its never two no matter how else you put it.
I already pointed out multiple of those misconceptions here already and I really don't want this argument to be any longer than it already is dude. Never said that first thing you said was an assumption and they are literally equals, why do you think she needed you and your partner for help in the first place? Simple. To gain an advantage against Darkrai. If Cresselia could have easily done that all by herself, would she really need your help? Of course not and again, never said she can't catch him, it just wouldn't be easily due to Darkrai being able to time travel away from her whenever he wants to.
1. "Immeasurable Speed on this site has no requirement whatsoever about needing to be in 2 different time periods at once."
Yes it does because 2 different time periods = past and future (inb4 "no it isn't" when the noun definitions of those 2 words says otherwise, hence "period of time" is another way of saying "time period" my guy), which I just said several times during this argument lol.
"It simply says to travel backwards and fowards through time with sheer speed alone"
Idk how this disproves my point when this is what I'm simply explaining to you about and disproving the misconception you created by your false assumption that Darkrai can do both when one of your scans about him explaining about how does he uses the time portal works mention the exact opposite as it literally stated that he can only go either to the past or future (stop misreading Darkrai's text already, this is getting repetitive).
What makes your argument sound worse is that Darkrai started that he can't control which time period does it go and beings with immeasurable speed never have this problem since they can be in 2 time periods, past & future, at the same time unlike Darkrai with his time portal. For last thing you mentioned, I did the same thing as well + why it doesn't give him an immeasurable speed rating too many times for me to count.
2. So you're still completely ignoring the contradictions with that claim as you continue forgetting the fact that not only can't he not be in both 2 different time periods (past & future) at once but also needs to use a time portal (once again, its a clear limitation of his speed since when you go through one, you are given 2 options to pick which time period you want to go to, the past or the future? However, you can only can pick one, not 2. Same case for Darkrai but the thing is that he doesn't have that choice, that time portal automatically selects it for him once he walks inside it), especially when the other reason why time portals are like regular portals because you can go to only 1 location after crossing through one (exactly how in a time machine as well that you can't take yourself to the past & future, even if you wanted to, and can only go to 1 of those specific time periods at a time), its never two no matter how else you put it.
I already pointed out multiple of those misconceptions here already and I really don't want this argument to be any longer than it already is dude. Never said that first thing you said was an assumption and they are literally equals, why do you think she needed you and your partner for help in the first place? Simple. To gain an advantage against Darkrai. If Cresselia could have easily done that all by herself, would she really need your help? Of course not and again, never said she can't catch him, it just wouldn't be easily due to Darkrai being able to time travel away from her whenever he wants to.
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@Xerkser
3. You never actually proven nor provided any evidence of any instance of Darkrai not using the time portal to time travel (which is the only known method he uses for that) since you claimed that assumption in your OP to be considered "true" first with no direct proof of that, so its up to you to provide evidence for that or its false. Also, off-screen doesn't count, so be aware of that.
"Means absolutely nothing if Darkrai cannot actually get to them. And that leads us back to square one."
Of course he can and time traveling makes this irrelevant because not only Darkrai has knowledge of certain events in the past, he can just time travel back to an earlier portal in time with the time portal to arrive to their location at the right moment. Darkrai used the time portal to arrive to the past & went to their location when they are about to time travel and used his speed while attacking them with a ranged attack, that's basically what he did and what he would do.
Another thing, when has Darkrai ever say it would negatively affect him exactly, other than just taking him to a random point in time in the past or future? Not to mention that wouldn't be "risky" as he never said there would be any side-effects of using the time portal that would potentially cause harm to himself in any way, shape, or form either.
Occams Razor isn't actual proof as it doesn't actually prove whether the claim it's right or wrong & considers said claim as an exception.
That's the only known method on-screen he uses to time travel, anything else other than that are actually unproven assumptions and you never actually provided direct evidence of Darkrai time traveling without time portals & since you claimed that first in your OP, its up to you to prove it.
4. My point still stands regardless though.
3. You never actually proven nor provided any evidence of any instance of Darkrai not using the time portal to time travel (which is the only known method he uses for that) since you claimed that assumption in your OP to be considered "true" first with no direct proof of that, so its up to you to provide evidence for that or its false. Also, off-screen doesn't count, so be aware of that.
"Means absolutely nothing if Darkrai cannot actually get to them. And that leads us back to square one."
Of course he can and time traveling makes this irrelevant because not only Darkrai has knowledge of certain events in the past, he can just time travel back to an earlier portal in time with the time portal to arrive to their location at the right moment. Darkrai used the time portal to arrive to the past & went to their location when they are about to time travel and used his speed while attacking them with a ranged attack, that's basically what he did and what he would do.
Another thing, when has Darkrai ever say it would negatively affect him exactly, other than just taking him to a random point in time in the past or future? Not to mention that wouldn't be "risky" as he never said there would be any side-effects of using the time portal that would potentially cause harm to himself in any way, shape, or form either.
Occams Razor isn't actual proof as it doesn't actually prove whether the claim it's right or wrong & considers said claim as an exception.
That's the only known method on-screen he uses to time travel, anything else other than that are actually unproven assumptions and you never actually provided direct evidence of Darkrai time traveling without time portals & since you claimed that first in your OP, its up to you to prove it.
4. My point still stands regardless though.
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First time I've seen this much nitpicking for a particular franchise, yet other RPG verses get an easy pass. But I disgress.
@Xerserker500 so what do you want it in the end? Lowest of the low, Relavistic? Or just Infinite Speed? I mean, it really sounded at one point like you're even questioning Infinite Speed.
@Xerserker500 so what do you want it in the end? Lowest of the low, Relavistic? Or just Infinite Speed? I mean, it really sounded at one point like you're even questioning Infinite Speed.
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Not going to bother reading the thread, but Cresselia makes clear that time travel is not instantaneous and that Palkia blasted the portal while Darkrai was still travelling.
Darkrai most likely did the same to the player and Grovyle.
That's not immeasurable speed, just interfering with time travel.
Heck in both occasions, the time travel wasn't even stopped to begin with.
Darkrai most likely did the same to the player and Grovyle.
That's not immeasurable speed, just interfering with time travel.
Heck in both occasions, the time travel wasn't even stopped to begin with.
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Immeasurable Dusknoir, then.
In all seriousness, I'm still absolutely against immeasurable and don't think it applies.
In all seriousness, I'm still absolutely against immeasurable and don't think it applies.
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Wait... wasn't Dialga nulling Celebi time powers in that scene ?Kaltias said:
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@Ex
Dusknoir noticed that they were time travelling and Dialga nulled it afterwards
https://youtu.be/EEzSUza9EqY?t=587
Dusknoir noticed that they were time travelling and Dialga nulled it afterwards
https://youtu.be/EEzSUza9EqY?t=587
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1.) Because your argument against the upgrade solely hinges on if Darkrai used the dimensional hole to attack Grovyle and the player while they were in the middle of time-traveling. And i've made a concrete argument on why he wouldnt have used it to attack them since the start of this post. Your not taking it into account.Magi Hussie said:
>when one of your scans about him explaining about how does he uses the time portal works mention the exact opposite as it literally stated that he can only go either to the past or future (stop misreading Darkrai's text already, this is getting repetitive).
For the upteenth time, Darkrai using the dimensional portal later on is not what im arguing to give him Immeasurable Speed. It's him attacking Groyvle and the player mid time-travel that does. What the portal does for his time traveling is completely irrelevant to my point on why Darkrai should be upgraded.
And what assumption? Darkrai clearly can freely travel between the past and future from his assualt on the 2 mid time-travel. Otherwise, again, he would have been stuck in a future point in time. Which he obviously wasnt.
>What makes your argument sound worse is that Darkrai started that he can't control which time period does it go and beings with immeasurable speed never have this problem since they can be in 2 time periods, past & future, at the same time unlike Darkrai with his time portal.
For one, Immeasurable Speed doesn't allow you to be in the past and future simutaneously. Thats nigh omnipresence acrosss time. Immeasurable Speed allows you to travel between the Past and Future freely.
And this wouldnt be a problem for Darkrai if, again, Cresselia and the 2 players didn't beat his ass right before he tried escaping. Had Darkrai been healthy enough to physically escape the 3 with sheer speed, you'd probably have a point.
2.) There are no contradictions. Literally none. Except for Darkrai trying to escape with a time portal, which has reasoning for it that i've explained over 10x in this thread.
>Never said that first thing you said was an assumption and they are literally equals, why do you think she needed you and your partner for help in the first place? Simple. To gain an advantage against Darkrai. If Cresselia could have easily done that all by herself, would she really need your help?
Not even sure what this point is even supposed to mean for your side, it just clarifies mine even more. Cresselia, by herself, is equal to Darkrai in every aspect. And the 2 players are stronger than Primal Dialga. A combined force like that defeating Darkrai and Cresselia beating on Darkrai right after easily explains why Darkrai could not physically escape the 3 and why he'd resort to using time traveling portals. Unless, again, Cresselia is suddenly unable to catch the very opponent she just defeated...........
3.) >You never actually proven nor provided any evidence of any instance of Darkrai not using the time portal to time travel (which is the only known method he uses for that)
.....Did you actually even read my OP at all? Like, even remotely? No offense, but it looks like you didnt at all.
I gave a concrete counter as to why Darkrai wouldnt use the time portal to travel to Grovyle and the Player. And whats that? i'll quote it again for you:
" Rebuttal 1: "Darkrai used a Dimensional Portal to escape the players and Cresselia, so it's likely he also used it to attack the Protagonist and Grovyle while they were time traveling."
Counter: Not neccesarily true. While it is true that Darkrai can open dimensional holes himself for time traveling, there's evidence to imply Darkrai isn't able to actually control or determine where the portal takes him between the past and future. When trying to escape Cresselia, the protagonist and partner, Darkrai explicitly says that he doesn't even know where the portal will take him between the past and future.
That gives us reason to say Darkrai cannot actually control where the dimensional hole will take him through time. So as for Darkrai attacking the player and Grovyle mid time-traveling, if you're making this counter-argument, answer me this. Why would Darkrai intentfully use a hax he can't even fully control to try stopping 2 beings who pose a serious threat to his plan?
Unless you want to make a speculative argument that Darkrai just, suddently, "got lucky" enough to dimensional hole himself to Grovyle and the player to attack them, common sense would say Darkrai wouldn't be stupid enough to risk his plan of wrapping the world in darkness by purposely using an ability he himself knows can easily do more harm to his goals than good."
^This has been in my OP since the very start and no one has been able to answer this, including you. I don't need evidence for this point because i've given a concrete reason why Darkrai wouldnt use the time portal to attack Groyvle and the player. And that reason is in what ive quoted. Until this question is answered, there's more reason for Darkrai not to use the dimesional hole.
> time traveling makes this irrelevant because not only Darkrai has knowledge of certain events in the past, he can just time travel back to an earlier portal in time with the time portal to arrive to their location at the right moment.
Way too many assumptions though. With 0 evidence of being the case.
Also, you do realize Groyvle and the player were coming from the future right? Not the past, the future.
>Darkrai used the time portal to arrive to the past & went to their location when they are about to time travel and used his speed while attacking them with a ranged attack, that's basically what he did and what he would do.
Absolute headcanon. Darkrai literally said that he attacked them precisely when they were traveling through time. My post literally has the scan in it.....and to be sure you see it, i'll even upload here on Imgur. So there was no "traveled to before they time-traveled' crap. It was when they were time-traveling. So your blatantly lying at this point.
And even if your speculation turned out to be true, that doesn't take into account how the player was sent to the past as a pokemon. Darkrai's attack did that since the player shielded Groyvle from it and as a result it turned them into a pokemon and sent them to the past.
>Another thing, when has Darkrai ever say it would negatively affect him exactly, other than just taking him to a random point in time in the past or future?
Thats the part im saing that would negatively effect him. Your taking this part out of context. By "negatively effecting him", I mean his plan. Darkrai sensed Groyvle and the player were coming from the future and wants to stop them from coming to the past and interfer with his plans. Lets say for a moment he tried using the dimensional hole to try stopping them instead of sheer speed. Darkrai can't control where the hole will lead to throughout time, so what if the hole just as easily took him to an earlier point in the past? That would hinder him from being able to stop Grovyle and the player from restorting Temporal Tower and stopping Darkrai's plans.Therefore, its too risky of an ability Darkrai would never purposely use via common sense.
Sheer speed would be the only other way Darkrai could freely move throughout time.
>Occams Razor isn't actual proof as it doesn't actually prove whether the claim it's right or wrong & considers said claim as an exception.
No but it sure as hell gives us the most accurate conclusions in these kind of situations and this wiki uses Occams Razor all the time from what I see. The rest see my 3rd point.
4.) And what point is that?
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This point is only plausible if you assume Darkrai's dimensional hole would lead to the future, where Groyvle and the player were coming from. And the latter is the problem with this.Kaltias said:
Darkrai cannot fully control the Dimension Hole in the 1st place, why would he pureposely use it all to try stopping them when it can just as easy do more harm to his plans than good?
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What does the time travel being or not being instantaneous have to do with my question?
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Since when does time-travel needs to be instantneous for one to get immeasurable speed via tagging someone mid-time travel?
And my new point is saying that your point on "Darkrai likely doing the same thing as Palkia to Groyvle and the player" is only possible if Darkrai's dimensional hole led him to the future, where the latter 2 were coming from.
And that argument is based off speculation.
And my new point is saying that your point on "Darkrai likely doing the same thing as Palkia to Groyvle and the player" is only possible if Darkrai's dimensional hole led him to the future, where the latter 2 were coming from.
And that argument is based off speculation.
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You have a time meachine that needs 10 seconds to fully send you to the past.
You start the process, and after three seconds, i blow it up with a rocket launcher, messing up your travel.
Does my rocket launcher have immeasurable speed?
About the other point, what i meant is that Darkrai most likely attacked the portal while they were travelling, like Palkia did.
Also pretty sure that there are methods to reliably travel from the future to the past and vice versa.
That's how Dusknoir brought the player, its partner, and Grovyle to the future.
You start the process, and after three seconds, i blow it up with a rocket launcher, messing up your travel.
Does my rocket launcher have immeasurable speed?
About the other point, what i meant is that Darkrai most likely attacked the portal while they were travelling, like Palkia did.
Also pretty sure that there are methods to reliably travel from the future to the past and vice versa.
That's how Dusknoir brought the player, its partner, and Grovyle to the future.
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I mean, shouldn't it? I wasn't aware that for one to get Immeasurable Speed by hitting someone mid-time travel, the latters time-traveling needed to be instaneous. That should probably be clarified on the speed page then if thats true. If what your saying is true, then I can concede to my immeasurable speed argument.
And yes, I know that, but theres a problem. For Darkrai attacking the portal, the portal's path would need to be going into the future, where Groyvle and the player are coming from, in order for the attack to mess up their time-traveling. Darkrai cannot control the path of where the dimensional hole goes, so unless Darkrai somehow got lucky, he wouldnt have even used the portal in the first place as it would be too risky to use.
And for the bottom point, unlike Darkrai, Dusknoir is able to actually control the dimensional portals path to lead him to whatever point in time he wishes. Darkrai cant.
And yes, I know that, but theres a problem. For Darkrai attacking the portal, the portal's path would need to be going into the future, where Groyvle and the player are coming from, in order for the attack to mess up their time-traveling. Darkrai cannot control the path of where the dimensional hole goes, so unless Darkrai somehow got lucky, he wouldnt have even used the portal in the first place as it would be too risky to use.
And for the bottom point, unlike Darkrai, Dusknoir is able to actually control the dimensional portals path to lead him to whatever point in time he wishes. Darkrai cant.
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@Kaltias I couldn't have said that any better myself.
@Xerkser
1. @Kaltias has disproven your point regarding this as he explained that their (Grovyle and the Player) time traveling was not an instantaneous process and wasn't proven to be in the game & various other instances also disproves it.
Once again, Darkrai's time portal can only go either the past or the future & "freely?" Did you not forget to remember that Darkrai can't control which time period he wants the time portal to take him to? So clearly he can't be in both places (past & future) at once really and another thing, I just said not to confuse this to Nigh-Omnipresence if he is using his speed to do this (which he isn't because he's using a time portal to time travel).
2. Yes there is contradictions and I have previously explained them already quite a long while ago.
3. If you don't provide evidence for that, then its clear that entire explanation you quoted from your OP is a headcanon.
"Also, you do realize Groyvle and the player were coming from the future right? Not the past, the future."
That doesn't even make any sense if Darkrai sensed their arrival while''''''''''''' he's also from the future too':
Darkrai: "I learned from their impending arrival from the future..."
"So there was no "traveled to before they time-traveled' crap."
When did I said Darkrai did this before they time-traveled? I literally said "when they are about to time travel" and the last thing you said after this doesn't change anything really.
That's the only option Darkrai basically has since that's the only known method of time 'travel we' know of that he uses in the game to return to the past and once again, it doesn't make sense if Grovyle and his partner were in the future if Darkrai was already in the future.
The "sheer speed" that he never shown to use in order to time travel back to the past in the game.
No, not really from what you're explained which @Kaltias also disproven not to be the case.
4. I already previously explained this point earlier to you, retyping it would be unnecessary.
Edit: Ignore this response.
@Xerkser
1. @Kaltias has disproven your point regarding this as he explained that their (Grovyle and the Player) time traveling was not an instantaneous process and wasn't proven to be in the game & various other instances also disproves it.
Once again, Darkrai's time portal can only go either the past or the future & "freely?" Did you not forget to remember that Darkrai can't control which time period he wants the time portal to take him to? So clearly he can't be in both places (past & future) at once really and another thing, I just said not to confuse this to Nigh-Omnipresence if he is using his speed to do this (which he isn't because he's using a time portal to time travel).
2. Yes there is contradictions and I have previously explained them already quite a long while ago.
3. If you don't provide evidence for that, then its clear that entire explanation you quoted from your OP is a headcanon.
"Also, you do realize Groyvle and the player were coming from the future right? Not the past, the future."
That doesn't even make any sense if Darkrai sensed their arrival while''''''''''''' he's also from the future too':
Darkrai: "I learned from their impending arrival from the future..."
"So there was no "traveled to before they time-traveled' crap."
When did I said Darkrai did this before they time-traveled? I literally said "when they are about to time travel" and the last thing you said after this doesn't change anything really.
That's the only option Darkrai basically has since that's the only known method of time 'travel we' know of that he uses in the game to return to the past and once again, it doesn't make sense if Grovyle and his partner were in the future if Darkrai was already in the future.
The "sheer speed" that he never shown to use in order to time travel back to the past in the game.
No, not really from what you're explained which @Kaltias also disproven not to be the case.
4. I already previously explained this point earlier to you, retyping it would be unnecessary.
Edit: Ignore this response.
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I already said i'd drop the immeasurable speed part of my post since it seems time-traveling needs to be instantneous for it to count towards Immeasurable Speed.
Something I did not know. This should be clarified on the Speed page so it doesnt cause another confusion like this in the future.
Something I did not know. This should be clarified on the Speed page so it doesnt cause another confusion like this in the future.
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Now all thats left to discuss from this is Palkia's omnipresence and then we can close this thread.
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@Xerkser
Okay then and instantaneous travel would refer to Infinite speed, not immeasurable speed though due to being kind of a no-brainer. Also, existing in all spaces but not time =/= Omnipresence btw.
Edit: That's just great, Ginger (its a random grammar app btw, which I never use) is now going to corrupt my responses and I may need to constantly get rid of that, smh....
Okay then and instantaneous travel would refer to Infinite speed, not immeasurable speed though due to being kind of a no-brainer. Also, existing in all spaces but not time =/= Omnipresence btw.
Edit: That's just great, Ginger (its a random grammar app btw, which I never use) is now going to corrupt my responses and I may need to constantly get rid of that, smh....
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Except, my OP is specifying that Palkia's omnipresence does exist in all spaces and across time as well. That is the point.Magi Hussie said:
When Darkrai gets hit by Palkias attack in the dimensional hole, and is banished to a different time period, Palkia outright confirms Darkrai still lives but just in a random place in a different time.
How would Palkia be able to even know Darkrai is alive in a different point in time if it's spatial omnipresence wasnt also across...well...time?
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That sounds like kind of a copout on the 1st points. Palkia's literal only beef with Darkrai in this game was that Darkrai was expanding the space distortion without Palkia's permission, Palkia has no reason to attack Darkrai with anything less but killing intent.
>And if he was omnipresent like that he would have attacked him from that point in time.
Yes but Palkia at that point no longer saw a need to attack Darkrai. After Darkrai was banished to a different time period from the accident, not only was he injured but he also lost his memory, meaning there was no way Darkrai would distort space like before again.
So it's not a matter of Palkia "cant" but its a matter of Palkia "not having a reason to".
>And if he was omnipresent like that he would have attacked him from that point in time.
Yes but Palkia at that point no longer saw a need to attack Darkrai. After Darkrai was banished to a different time period from the accident, not only was he injured but he also lost his memory, meaning there was no way Darkrai would distort space like before again.
So it's not a matter of Palkia "cant" but its a matter of Palkia "not having a reason to".
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@Xerkser
Like what @DMB mentioned, Palkia knows and is aware of that through a form of Cosmic Awareness and if he was omnipresent, then Palkia would've already been there in that point of time.
Like what @DMB mentioned, Palkia knows and is aware of that through a form of Cosmic Awareness and if he was omnipresent, then Palkia would've already been there in that point of time.
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And as already mentioned, thats a copout to try and deny the upgrade.
Cosmic Awareness? Being spatially omnipresent throughout time as well instead of only space is just as plausible. And I for one do not agree with just making up powers for Palkia at the last second to try and use as a counter.
Cosmic Awareness? Being spatially omnipresent throughout time as well instead of only space is just as plausible. And I for one do not agree with just making up powers for Palkia at the last second to try and use as a counter.
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Plus, look at the Cosmic Awareness page.
Cosmic Awareness doesn't allow you to become aware of activity throughout time.
Cosmic Awareness doesn't allow you to become aware of activity throughout time.
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