Plot Manipulation Standards

[ShivaShakti]

So i'm making this thread as I am highly skeptical of the way we currently treat Plot Manipulation. We treat it as superior to most forms of hax in most cases and I am questioning why.
In most cases Plot Manipulation within fiction is normally depicted as

-An off shoot of Fate Manipulation (Rewriting predetermined events or writing a character down a preferred path)
-An off shoot of Subjective Reality / Reality Warping (Rewriting the story)
-An off shoot of Causality Manipulation (Rewriting certain events within the story)

I find it odd we treat this power so differently, when functionally it does a lot of the same things. I also question why we treat it as superior to other verses, when most fictional verses don't even acknowledge the fact they are fiction. It seems strange to treat it as above others when its applications to other powers are quite similar. In some cases it almost seems like an NLF ability. I feel as though instead of straight up treating it as a superior ability to others, we should take into account the inverse context of what its capable of affecting, the cosmology, etc.

 

[Udlmaster]

Yeah, I see the point being made, I think the main problem is that it is similar to Fate Manipulation in a way, but broader (in terms of what it can do)

But I do agree with the strange reverence for it, and how most matches with it involve a checklist if one side has it and the other resists or has it themselves or “FRA” spam.

 

[Ogbunabali]

As I always say, just treat the power based on the feats it has, not just on the certain name attached to it and 90% of the problems like these go away.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I find it odd we treat this power so differently, when functionally it does a lot of the same things. I also question why we treat it as superior to other verses, when most fictional verses don't even acknowledge the fact they are fiction. It seems strange to treat it as above others when its applications to other powers are quite similar. In some cases it almost seems like an NLF ability. I feel as though instead of straight up treating it as a superior ability to others, we should take into account the inverse context of what its capable of affecting, the cosmology, etc.

Nah man my meta narrative shit beats you ez gg no re
Anyways I agree

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Plot manip and fate manip are the same thing. Change my mind. Unless the story is depicting plot as being a superior form of fate, in any other case, it's plain fate hax.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

Plot manip and fate manip are the same thing. Change my mind. Unless the story is depicting plot as being a superior form of fate, in any other case, it's plain fate hax.

There is this from the OP:

"-An off shoot of Subjective Reality / Reality Warping (Rewriting the story)
-An off shoot of Causality Manipulation (Rewriting certain events within the story)"

Would Fate Manipulation cover that?

 

[ShivaShakti]

There is this from the OP:

"-An off shoot of Subjective Reality / Reality Warping (Rewriting the story)
-An off shoot of Causality Manipulation (Rewriting certain events within the story)"

Would Fate Manipulation cover that?

I was listing different ways its used, not that its all those at once. Some verse's depiction of plot hax defer from others.

 

[Nehz_XZX]

I was listing different ways its used, not that its all those at once. Some verse's depiction of plot hax defer from others.

Firephoenixearl wasn't exactly being more specific than Plot Manipulation but I do understand your point.

 

[Antoniofer]

Plot Manipulation is basically Reality Warping but under the principle the verse (or one individual from it) acknowledge they're a fictional world, and alter "reality" based on that.

 

[Ionliosite]

Plot Manipulation is indeed just the abilities listed on the OP but with extra steps due to its meta nature.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Plot is altering the "plot" of a book. In other words 'the fate" of the characters. Anything plot can do. Fate can do too.

It's looking at the same thing from 2 different viewpoints.

 

[YungManzi]

Plot manipulaion is not an offshoot of anything, it's its own thing which can be used to complete the same result as another completely different power.

Just like how Fate and Probability/Luck Manipulation can have similar outcomes based on the power itself. Or the difference between advanced social influencing and mind manipulation. Or Invisibility vs Camouflage.
If the fate isn't impacting the plot itself, then no, it is not plot manipulation and is probably not even comparable in terms of scale, since Things like "Fate" would naturally follow the course of the plot. Plot and Fate aren't even synonyms; so Fate cannot be another word for Plot.

The only way you could say this is by saying that verse equalization means that the "Plot" of meta stories is equal to the "Fate" of a non-meta story since they would serve similar purpose and "Plot" doesn't exist in the non-meta story; but this doesn't really work because they're both still works of fiction with their own plots and storylines, it's not as if there is no plot to equalize to the given plot manipulation. This is the problem with putting meta against non-meta. Both are fiction, but one acknowledges itself as fiction and incorporates the fact that it is fiction into the world, while the other doesn't... and that's simply what that is.

And finally; to answer why we treat it as being superior to other powers... I see it more-so like this... Things like Fate, Probability, Luck, Causality, ect are all things which directly rely on the plot to even exist. Like, none of those would exist if the plot of the non-meta didn't exist. So, there you have it.


Me from like 2018 would have agreed with Earl on this; and if you go back to those times, you'd probably see me making the exact same arguments as him, but with a deeper understanding of how plot manipulation and powers in general on vsbattles work, I disagree.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Plot doesn't exist if you don't interpret the world as fiction.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Plot manipulaion is not an offshoot of anything, it's its own thing which can be used to complete the same result as another completely different power.

Just like how Fate and Probability/Luck Manipulation can have similar outcomes based on the power itself. Or the difference between advanced social influencing and mind manipulation. Or Invisibility vs Camouflage.
If the fate isn't impacting the plot itself, then no, it is not plot manipulation and is probably not even comparable in terms of scale, since Things like "Fate" would naturally follow the course of the plot. Plot and Fate aren't even synonyms; so Fate cannot be another word for Plot.

The only way you could say this is by saying that verse equalization means that the "Plot" of meta stories is equal to the "Fate" of a non-meta story since they would serve similar purpose and "Plot" doesn't exist in the non-meta story; but this doesn't really work because they're both still works of fiction with their own plots and storylines, it's not as if there is no plot to equalize to the given plot manipulation. This is the problem with putting meta against non-meta. Both are fiction, but one acknowledges itself as fiction and incorporates the fact that it is fiction into the world, while the other doesn't... and that's simply what that is.

And finally; to answer why we treat it as being superior to other powers... I see it more-so like this... Things like Fate, Probability, Luck, Causality, ect are all things which directly rely on the plot to even exist. Like, none of those would exist if the plot of the non-meta didn't exist. So, there you have it.


Me from like 2018 would have agreed with Earl on this; and if you go back to those times, you'd probably see me making the exact same arguments as him, but with a deeper understanding of how plot manipulation and powers in general on vsbattles work, I disagree.

Many verses don't acknowledge the fact its a fictional setting, and use other explanations for its cosmology and flow as I have stated. Different verses have different mechanics for plot manipulation. I don't see why we automatically assume its all encompassing and negs other abilities. There isn't really a reason to treat it as this special thing when other powers can do functionally the same thing. Not to mention the fact that cosmology and inverse context is also a factor. Plot Manipulation is not automatically all encompassing, and its kind of an NLF to state so.

The arguments for plot manipulation being superior mainly stem from it being "all encompassing" and people treat it like its auto transcendence and sort of equate it to having "Author Authority". The thing is this isn't inherently true in some verses. For example in The Dark Tower, Stephen King (The literal writer of the verse) makes an appearance and is still treated as inferior to the likes of Gan and The Crimson King. There are different levels of what Plot Manip is, and different ways certain verses treat it. You're going in with preconcieved notions based on what you think Plot Manipulation should be.

You say its not an offshoot of anything, but the page itself literally states its just a variation of Reality Warping.

 

[YungManzi]

Well, if we're being technical, pretty much anything can be linked to reality warping. Also, special cases Like Dark Tower where the cosmology is superior to the plot/author falls into that category of a Meta-involved story anyway.

And I already explained why I don't agree with the first bit in my original comment. Unless the verse itself isn't fiction (i.e The Real World) all verses would have a plot to manipulate; whether or not it acknowledges itself as fiction is irrelevant. As I said:

The only way you could say this is by saying that verse equalization means that the "Plot" of meta stories is equal to the "Fate" of a non-meta story since they would serve similar purpose and "Plot" doesn't exist in the non-meta story; but this doesn't really work because they're both still works of fiction with their own plots and storylines, it's not as if there is no plot to equalize to the given plot manipulation.

Now this gets far more complicated when you get into tiers 2 and up, but as a general rule, that's how it works.

 

[YungManzi]

Of course, not all plot manipulation is the same, some only have minor and others have major; and many use it to achieve many different things. Take that as you will.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Plot manip being a offshoot shouldn't be an argument, many powers are offshots of others in some way.

Fate manip is causality manip for the future, perception manip is a subtle form of sense manip, biological manip is a weaker and more specific version of matter manip.

For the rest, agree with yung.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Of course, not all plot manipulation is the same, some only have minor and others have major; and many use it to achieve many different things. Take that as you will.

This is one of the things we've proposed addressing. Alot of the times its treated in a certain way and held in this high regard for these differing types of plot manip with different applications with different verse mechanics. Its extremely presumptuous to treat it at this god power superior to the other similar types of abilities.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Well, if we're being technical, pretty much anything can be linked to reality warping. Also, special cases Like Dark Tower where the cosmology is superior to the plot/author falls into that category of a Meta-involved story anyway.

And I already explained why I don't agree with the first bit in my original comment. Unless the verse itself isn't fiction (i.e The Real World) all verses would have a plot to manipulate; whether or not it acknowledges itself as fiction is irrelevant. As I said:



Now this gets far more complicated when you get into tiers 2 and up, but as a general rule, that's how it works.

It shows there are cases where Plot Manip and Author authority aren't automatically >>>>> Everything else.

 

[Arcker123]

Weird question but would acausality protect from the “fate hax” application of plot hax

 

[YungManzi]

Weird question but would acausality protect from the “fate hax” application of plot hax

If it has feats to support that, yes.

 

[ShivaShakti]

Weird question but would acausality protect from the “fate hax” application of plot hax

Type 2, 4 or 5, then likely.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Plot Manipulation is a bit broader tho, since it can also do EE, mind control, or weird things like making your actions irrelevant.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Weird question but would acausality protect from the “fate hax” application of plot hax

yes.

If it has feats to support that, yes.

No real needs for feats. As it's the same thing as fate manip.

Plot Manipulation is a bit broader tho, since it can also do EE, mind control, or weird things like making your actions irrelevant.

Good fate hax can do all of that as well.

Unless the verse itself isn't fiction (i.e The Real World) all verses would have a plot to manipulate; whether or not it acknowledges itself as fiction is irrelevant.

Not really, cus some verses can manipulate the same thing but call it "fate" instead. The plot is just "the history of the characters/world of the story", which is blatant fate hax.

The only argument that can be made is that Plot Manip should always be 1D above the characters in terms of power since it's looking at them as fiction to manipulate them, but that's not always the case and should be determined based on feats. In terms of what plot can do, there is no difference from Fate Manip, and in terms of how it accomplishes that is again the same as fate manip just by a different name.

If a character with fate hax changes his future so that he gets a gf tomorrow morning. He changed the plot of the story cus the original plot was "he doesn't get a gf cus he's ugly af". Similarly if you change the plot so that the MC gets a gf next morning, you changed the MC's fate.

It's the same thing. A case of "is the glass half empty or half full?" or "is the glass empty or full of air?", same thing, different viewpoints.

 

[RatherClueless]

We treat it as superior to most forms of hax in most cases and I am questioning why.

Memes aside, for something like fate manipulation to be "just as powerful" as standard plot manipulation, it would have to be able to change "the fate of the story" itself, rather than just things within it and honestly, at that point we'd likely just classify it as plot manipulation anyways.

-An off shoot of Fate Manipulation (Rewriting predetermined events or writing a character down a preferred path)
-An off shoot of Subjective Reality / Reality Warping (Rewriting the story)
-An off shoot of Causality Manipulation (Rewriting certain events within the story)

No, it is always the second. For example, you can use mind manipulation to influence someones senses, but that doesn't mean it is an off shoot of sense manipulation, that'd be just silly. Another closer example would be someone who can use reality warping to change the shape of something. Obviously this wouldn't mean that reality warping was an off shoot of transmutation or that reality warping and transmutation are even close to being equal. It's the same thing here. If some character can only use their plot manipulation to influence someones fate, then that is simply very limited plot manipulation and shouldn't set any kinds of standards for how "real" plot manipulation fairs against other abilities.

I find it odd we treat this power so differently, when functionally it does a lot of the same things.

What matters is how it does it and not what it does

I feel as though instead of straight up treating it as a superior ability to others, we should take into account the inverse context of what its capable of affecting, the cosmology, etc.

We already do that though? Someone who has only shown 2-C plot manip won't be assumed to be able to plot manip a 1-A story.

Plot manip and fate manip are the same thing. Change my mind. Unless the story is depicting plot as being a superior form of fate, in any other case, it's plain fate hax.

Fate manipulation is limited to someones/somethings fate. It is capable of directing something down a different road if you will. In very extreme cases it can even create some utterly nonsensical results. Plot manip on the other hand can can change location, main cast and even what the story is about in an instant. Fate manip can't do that.

Weird question but would acausality protect from the “fate hax” application of plot hax

Assuming the plot hax isn't of a greater tier than the chracater in questioin: Type 5, yes. Maybe type 4. The other ones would need feats to back it up.

Not really, cus some verses can manipulate the same thing but call it "fate" instead. The plot is just "the history of the characters/world of the story", which is blatant fate hax.

Who cares what the story calls it? Plot and fate are two vastly different things. We classify things based on what they do, not what characters say it is.

If a character with fate hax changes his future so that he gets a gf tomorrow morning. He changed the plot of the story cus the original plot was "he doesn't get a gf cus he's ugly af".

The plot was always for him to use his fate manipulation to do that. Nothing changed, unless the characters fate manipulation can mess with the story itself, which needs to be proven and at that point it's just plot manipulation anyways. Although, I guess I can see the confusion now. So just to make this clear really quickly.
Fate manipulation gives the character a sense of control if you will. They believe they changed the future to their liking, while in reality, all of that was already part of the plot and nothing changed. It's like trying to come up with a plan to outsmart someone, but that person already planned for you to come up with that plan 10 years in advance, so nothing about your situation changed, even if you think it did.

It's the same thing. A case of "is the glass half empty or half full?"

A glass is half full after filling it from less than half to half and it's half empty after emptying it from more than half to half. It's not that hard UwU

 

[Lilixa]

As I always say, just treat the power based on the feats it has, not just on the certain name attached to it and 90% of the problems like these go away.

I agree.

 

[Antoniofer]

Also agree, Plot Manipulation is more of a nature-type power, if it can manipulate fate or reality warp (this application being the most common) then one add these powers too.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just for context, what do you guys define "plot" as?

 

[RatherClueless]

Just for context, what do you guys define "plot" as?

In a VSBW sense? The entirety of the story. Plot manip would be effectively to take the authors position and go wild. In a literal sense? Technically still the entire story. The plot is "A sequence of events, linked by cause and effect, which forms the story". (although plot is also used as a synonym for "story" and "narrative")
Fate in a VSBW sense would be "making a certain event come true, by changing what events will transpire in the future". In a literal sense? Literally the same

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The plot is "A sequence of events, linked by cause and effect, which forms the story". (although plot is also used as a synonym for "story" and "narrative")

In other words "history". Do you know that history manip falls under "fate manip" for us though? Cus manipulating a story is just manipulating fate.

So if you think of the word as real you'd say "history", if you think of it as fictional you'd think of it as "story/narrative". In what way are these 2 different?

There is only 1 case in which plot cannot be equated to fate hax. And that is if it is capable of changing things directly. Example making the sky red by rewriting the plot so that the sky is red instead of blue. Other than that almost everything else is fate manip.

 

[Lilixa]

somehow plot manip has intersect between reality warping and fate manip

 

[RatherClueless]

In other words "history". Do you know that history manip falls under "fate manip" for us though? Cus manipulating a story is just manipulating fate.

So if you think of the word as real you'd say "history", if you think of it as fictional you'd think of it as "story/narrative". In what way are these 2 different?

There is only 1 case in which plot cannot be equated to fate hax. And that is if it is capable of changing things directly. Example making the sky red by rewriting the plot so that the sky is red instead of blue. Other than that almost everything else is fate manip.

fate doesn't manip history though. It causes a future even to happen. It only changes things between the present and future to cause a certain event

 

[Firephoenixearl]

fate doesn't manip history though. It causes a future even to happen. It only changes things between the present and future to cause a certain event

It can change the past too. Not all forms of fate manip are capable of this ofc, but it's still possible.

 

[Zackra1799]

In other words "history". Do you know that history manip falls under "fate manip" for us though? Cus manipulating a story is just manipulating fate.

So if you think of the word as real you'd say "history", if you think of it as fictional you'd think of it as "story/narrative". In what way are these 2 different?

There is only 1 case in which plot cannot be equated to fate hax. And that is if it is capable of changing things directly. Example making the sky red by rewriting the plot so that the sky is red instead of blue. Other than that almost everything else is fate manip.

I disagree, Fate hax is still within the Narrative. Plot hax isn't as it is the Narrative itself. For example being Acausal, without feats of being resistant to plot hax, won't save you from being manipulated by the plot as you are still within the plot. This goes the other was as well, if you are resistant to plot hax you don't automatically get Fate hax resistance. They are completely different powers that can achieve similar results. Its basically like comparing body puppetry and mind control, both control your opponent but through different means.

 

[RatherClueless]

It can change the past too. Not all forms of fate manip are capable of this ofc, but it's still possible.

give me just one form where it can plausibly do that, without some weird extra steps

 

[Antoniofer]

Changing the past is not Fate Manipulation.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

give me just one form where it can plausibly do that, without some weird extra steps

Basically change your fate so that you never did something in the past, change your past course of actions. Im pretty sure i've seen ppl do this i just can't put my finger on where i've seen that exactly.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

But ehh we can just call Plot Manip, Reality Warping for things that see the world as fiction. If it starts affecting character decisions and such, it's fate manip, if it changes events it's causality manip, if it makes broader changes like turning the sky pink it's just reality warping.

Still shouldn't be its own power imo, as it's not a different type of power it just depends on how you view the world.

 

[RatherClueless]

But ehh we can just call Plot Manip, Reality Warping for things that see the world as fiction. If it starts affecting character decisions and such, it's fate manip, if it changes events it's causality manip, if it makes broader changes like turning the sky pink it's just reality warping.

Still shouldn't be its own power imo, as it's not a different type of power it just depends on how you view the world.

it's not a different power based on what it does, but based on how it does it.

 

[RatherClueless]

Basically change your fate so that you never did something in the past, change your past course of actions. Im pretty sure i've seen ppl do this i just can't put my finger on where i've seen that exactly.

that wouldn't be fate manip tho