Persona: Finally some Mid-Game Keys for SEES

[DarkGrath]

The Persona 3 profiles have always been a bit weird. The earliest possible feat they scale from is from Makoto comparing to Elizabeth, which at best was almost certainly a late game feat. So compared to the other Persona profiles, where characters are split between early/mid/late/end game keys, there is very little information on the Persona 3 profiles for anything prior to the Elizabeth fight. Now, we can finally change that. In this CRT, I want to suggest why the Mid-Game SEES should get 4-A keys.

In Persona Q2, the characters in Persona 3, 4 and 5 all get together in one story. And in the story of Persona Q2, they are all depicted as being roughly comparable to one another. The story of Persona Q2 features a lot of time travel, with the characters of each game being transported into a separate timeline at different points, but contextually we can still figure out what point in time these characters came from.

For the Persona 3 cast, it is shown that Shinjiro is apart of SEES at the time. This means that SEES could only have been transported into the separate timeline within a very specific, tiny time period (as Shinjiro wasn't apart of SEES for a large part of the game, and he dies shortly afterwards). This section of the game would almost certainly be considered "Mid-Game", given that it is quite literally almost exactly in the middle of the game.

For the Persona 5 cast, it's even more transparent; Akechi is a part of the Phantom Thieves, which means that they must have been transported into the separate timeline of Persona Q2 while in the midst of Sae's palace. This would be considered a late-game section for the Phantom Thieves, as it takes place past the Okumura fight.

So, here's the TL;DR.

The Late-Game Phantom Thieves are already 4-A via scaling to Okumura and his 4-A feat.

Sae's palace is after the Okumura battle but before the Holy Grail fight, so they'd be 4-A during Sae's palace and 4-A during the events of Persona Q2.

SEES enter into Persona Q2 at a Mid-Game Point, when Shinjiro is a part of SEES but not dead yet.

And SEES in Persona Q2 are depicted as being = to the Phantom Thieves.

Therefore, SEES in the Mid-Game would be 4-A.

Thoughts?

 

[DarkGrath]

Just realised one thing I should probably clarify; yes, the Persona Q games are canon. I also imagine that the Investigation Team could scale from this as well, since they were also depicted as being comparable to both SEES and the Phantom Thieves, but off the top of my head I can't remember whereabouts in the story the Persona 4 cast would have been at.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Fine with this.

 

[HST_Master]

The P4 cast would be at the very least post Naoto's Channel. And I agree with this. Although how would Enlil end up scaling?

 

[DarkGrath]

With that in mind, given that the P4 cast aren't particularly well split into different parts of the game, should we add a mid-game key for them, or just change their "Main Game" rating to 4-A?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Well, wouldn't that redo their entire scaling chain?

They currently scale from Adachi's Magatsu Inaba feat, but if this takes place post-Naoto's channel, that means everyone is 4-A until Izanami appears.

 

[DarkGrath]

Hmm...

Well, if that's the only feat they scale from, I don't think it'd be an outlier to say that they could be 4-A. There isn't much detail in the scaling chains pre-Low 2-C anyway, so it's not a huge deal to revise.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

So Adachi vs Akechi would be a fair fight then....

Hmm...

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, physically, yes. They would have the same AP. But it'd be a pretty decisive match for Akechi, since Akechi's abilities are practically just Adachis but... more, and better.

We're getting off topic though. How should we handle scaling for P4? Should we add a new key, or just change their main game key?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Shouldn't P4Q be after Golden, but before Arena?

 

[DarkGrath]

I'm not certain about that. Again, my memory of PQ2 is a bit rusty, but considering that the Persona 3 cast were sent in at a mid-game point, and the Persona 5 cast were sent in at a late-game point, it doesn't make much sense to me for the Persona 4 cast to have been sent in after the game's main events. I'll look more into it, but I'm pretty sure the Persona 4 cast was sent in around the mid to late game point based on Naoto.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Is Adachi mentioned as the killer in PQ? Because if so, that would mean it was at least after him.

 

[DarkGrath]

I don't think he was.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Then that means either A. They just didn't bring him up, or B. They didn't know

I don't think they would fail to bring up Adachi, so I'm leaning towards option B

 

[DarkGrath]

I will of course have to check, but again, I think this'd count as a mid game feat for the Investigation Team.

 

[DarkGrath]

I have checked Persona Q2, though admittedly I could be a bit more thorough. It seems like the Investigation Team got there when all of the main cast was in, but there isn't much else mentioned. They don't seem to mention Adachi, so under the conditions I think it'd be considered mid-game for them.

So, their main-game key can probably be changed to 4-A, assuming we don't consider this an outlier.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Uh... Bump for Christmas Eve Eve?

 

[DarkGrath]

Christmas bump!

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Seems all good, why can't we add it?

 

[DarkGrath]

Well, it involves major changes to profiles for a relatively popular verse. It'd definitely be best to get admin input. Perhaps Dragonmaster?

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump. I've asked Dragonmaster, haven't gotten a response yet.

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

Hopefully he responds soon, but it is the holidays so

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump.

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump. I've contacted Dragonmaster a couple of times, but he hasn't responded. I can only assume he's got stuff to do over the holidays, which is perfectly understandable. Is there anyone else who could be contacted for this?

 

[KnightOfSunlight]

I can't think of anyone to contact for this so I don't know.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

I don't know if we can fully scale them and say that the Phantom Thieves are 4-A because once they were in the other worlds, this is because they stated to be weaker than how they usually are.

 

[DarkGrath]

I see where you're coming from, but I'm inclined to disagree. They are seemingly weaker than before, as is stated, but there isn't much to suggest this would be to an extent that would reduce their tier. Even if they were at, like, 1% of their previous power it'd only cause a minor tier change. Maybe "At most 4-A" would be more appropriate?

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Well from what we know, the main cast can only use their weak skills that you usually get from early on the game. Imo a "Possibly 4-A" seems to fit more but I'm fine with either one.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good from a glance.

 

[DarkGrath]

Thank you, Medeus.

I'm fine with either "At most 4-A" or "Possibly 4-A". Again, I feel like "At most 4-A" works best, since it's kind of difficult to say if they actually dropped to the strength of their earlier game selves. They do have earlier game abilities, so if we based it on that maybe they'd instead have "High 4-C" or "At least 7-C".

Let's get some input on that though, I'm just throwing around ideas currently.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Should we contact anyone else that is familiar with both games?

 

[DarkGrath]

It might just be best to get input from people who were previously involved with this thread.

Currently, the suggestions are "At most 4-A", "Possibly 4-A", "High 4-C" and "At least 7-C". Let's see what people think is the most reliable.

 

[DatOneWeeb]

Sounds good.

 

[DarkGrath]

I'll just list what I think of the suggestions personally, and we'll see what others think.

First up, I'm inclined to disagree with "Possibly 4-A" and "High 4-C". "Possibly 4-A" is a bit of a weird way of describing what's happening here, even if it's mostly valid. The problem is that the Phantom Thieves would just be an unknown amount below their late-game selves, so all we really know is that they scale below a 4-A feat by a potentially major amount. That fits the definition of "At most 4-A" better than "Possibly 4-A". As for "High 4-C", I'm inclined to disagree with this since it's mostly baseless; there is very little indication that they would be downgraded exactly to the point of their mid-game selves, so while this is still a possibility I don't think it can be assumed.

"At most 4-A" is what I'd personally consider the most reliable. While the abilities of the Phantom Thieves have been downgraded to their early-game abilities, this wouldn't necessarily have a major impact on the AP of their Personas and as far as I can find it doesn't seem to be implied that it does. If we assume that it does though, then "At least 7-C" would also be a perfectly viable conclusion.

So, I personally agree with "At most 4-A" and potentially "At least 7-C", though I disagree with "Possibly 4-A" or "High 4-C".

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Actually, I don't think this will work. PQ2 the death of the P3 protag is mentioned, especially by the fem!protag of P3.

 

[DarkGrath]

Isn't that because they were brother or sister or something? I remember that detail being retconned in. How they were brother and sister, and they were in alternate timelines where one or the other died alongside the rest of their family. I could be remembering incorrectly, but wasn't that detail brought up in PQ2?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

No, they weren't brother and sister iirc. But I'll have to look back.

 

[DarkGrath]

Hm. I remember hearing that somewhere, but if it wasn't PQ2 then I can't think where. I'll check when I can.

Regardless though, we need to acknowledge that SEES definitely came in at the time specified, so if there were any statements about his death it would 100% have been due to different timelines or different points in time. Unless we're arguing that he literally doesn't exist or that there's a paradox, this should be fine for scaling.

 

[DarkGrath]

Bump.

 

[DarkGrath]

Bumparoony!