P&A Section's Revision (Toriko - Misc Characters - Part 2)

[Deceived3596]

Bleach Profile Revisions (Quincy)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Three profiles which have been heavily revised, given the amount of stuff that has been revised and me completely forgetting how the old profiles look (also me being lazy since i don't wanna spend 30 minutes stating shit which is already present in the blog), so i'll not state in the OP, just read the profiles yourself and evaluate them. Simple as that.

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Agree -

Disagree -

Neutral -

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Looks Good.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I don't really know this verse, but I've been in enough calls with you and Wrath talking about it, so at a glance those P&A seem fine.

 

[Stefano4444]

Looks good.

 

[Deceived3596]

Bump

 

[Damage3245]

Regeneration and Immortality (Type 3 - Mid - After consuming AIR, Setsuno can regenerate any missing body part through breathing in air, which would include her head[2])

The description mentions AIR while the scan is for PAIR.


Don Slime's ability list should have bullet points added in.

Also as a food spirit Don Slime is naturally resistant towards soul-based attacks[4])

How does this scan show that Don Slime is naturally resistant towards soul-based attacks?

 

[Deceived3596]

The description mentions AIR while the scan is for PAIR.

Whoops, i'll fix that in a few minutes.

Don Slime's ability list should have bullet points added in.

What exactly do you mean by this?

How does this scan show that Don Slime is naturally resistant towards soul-based attacks?

Because it shows Don Slime is a Soul?, and if you're a soul then by definition you can resist soul-based attacks to a certain level inherently, similar to how physical objects can resist kinetic energy to a certain level inherently?

 

[Damage3245]

What exactly do you mean by this?

It currently looks like this, unlike Setsuno's list:

Because it shows Don Slime is a Soul?, and if you're a soul then by definition you can resist soul-based attacks to a certain level inherently, similar to how physical objects can resist kinetic energy to a certain level inherently?

I'm not aware of that being an accepted standard anywhere on this wiki.

 

[Deceived3596]

It currently looks like this, unlike Setsuno's list:

The reasoning behind that is Don Slime's ability section is very long, which causes the bulleted formatting to not look the best on it. So i decided to just use the bolded, paragraph formatting instead since that's visually the best formatting for the length of the page imo.

Also @Wrath_Of_Itachi was yelling at me because I've only used the bulleted formatting for profiles for the verse.

I'm not aware of that being an accepted standard anywhere on this wiki.

If it's logically consistent then i don't see the reason to discard it tbh, also what do you mean by "accepted standard"? since that can be interpreted in different ways, so i want to get your interpretation of it first before addressing it.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it would be better to use bullet points for it.

If it's logically consistent then i don't see the reason to discard it tbh, also what do you mean by "accepted standard"? since that can be interpreted in different ways, so i want to get your interpretation of it first before addressing it.

I don't think there's anything on the wiki that says "Characters who exist purely as souls can inherently resist soul-based attacks."

That isn't on the Soul Manipulation page or the Resistance page.

 

[Deceived3596]

I think it would be better to use bullet points for it.

@Wrath_Of_Itachi

I don't think there's anything on the wiki that says "Characters who exist purely as souls can inherently resist soul-based attacks."

That isn't on the Soul Manipulation page or the Resistance page.

I don't see how this is a counter to my assertion at all, just because it isn't present on either the Soul Manipulation or Resistance page doesn't mean it doesn't logically follow or isn't permissible on VSBW. Unless you can show me a unstated rule or something to that effect which disallows that type of logic.

If the logic is sound, and isn't contradicted then it should be applicable.

 

[Damage3245]

Since we don't add "Resistance to Soul Manipulation" by default for all spirit-based characters currently, I assume it is not applicable.

It would have to be argued otherwise. You can't just say "The logic is sound" and expect it to be accepted.

 

[Wrath_Of_Itachi]

Bump.

 

[Damage3245]

I think this bit needs to be removed:

Also as a food spirit Don Slime is naturally resistant towards soul-based attacks[4])

Other than that, I think the suggestions look fine.

Also, I don't think this is particularly valid for Setsuno's Resistances:

Soul Manipulation (Can resist attacks from Joa[7], someone who has consumed PAIR[4], which allows people to damage and kill Food Spirits[14])

Deflecting attacks from Joie =/= Deflecting Soul Manipulation.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm barely conscious right now so i'll address the contention with Setsuno's resistance later today. (Maybe i'll address it shortly though, idk, depends if i get a second wind or not)

I'm still of the opinion that the provided reasoning is logically consistent and completely allowable under our rule set, but if more mods disagree with it then i'll remove it.

 

[Damage3245]

I don't know how many mods are familiar with Toriko but I know @Qawsedf234 is (I think), so I've pinged them for their input.

IMO, just because a character has soul manipulation as part of their ability-set, doesn't make every attack they use against someone soul-based. If a character who can harm souls punches an another character in the face (and the other character is fine aside from the typical damage expected from a punch), that doesn't mean the other character resisted soul manipulation.

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't know how many mods are familiar with Toriko but I know @Qawsedf234 is (I think), so I've pinged them for their input.

I believe Jvando's also a knowledgeable member of the series, but he isn't really active currently because of irl reasons (he's also only a content mod, which means his vote in effect is equal to that of a blue members, aka useless.)

Edit: Nvm, didn't even know Jvando retired.

IMO, just because a character has soul manipulation as part of their ability-set, doesn't make every attack they use against someone soul-based. If a character who can harm souls punches an another character in the face (and the other character is fine aside from the typical damage expected from a punch), that doesn't mean the other character resisted soul manipulation.

The problem with this explanation is the fact you're misunderstanding what PAIR actually grants, it allows you, regardless of the attack, to target and damage one's soul, it's an innate effect which can't be deactivate nor activated, unlike that of an ability, which it seems like you believe PAIR is. If you resist an attack from a character which has eaten PAIR, you're innately resisting attacks which target and damage the soul. Simple as.

 

[Damage3245]

The problem with this explanation is the fact you're misunderstanding what PAIR actually grants, it allows you, regardless of the attack, to target and damage one's soul, it's an innate effect which can't be deactivate nor activated, unlike that of an ability, which it seems like you believe PAIR is. If you resist an attack from a character which has eaten PAIR, you're innately resisting attacks which target and damage the soul. Simple as.

I'm not misunderstanding it, I just don't think your interpretation is entirely correct. We've seen Joie punch through Food Spirits, sure, but does that effect apply to his ranged air pressure attacks? Not necessarily. Not like we've seen Joie cut a Food Spirit apart from a distance.

And also, even if we assumed that to be the case and Joie did inflict soul-damaging cuts to Setsuno's soul when Joie cut Setsuno's body... that's still not a resistance. Setsuno's soul would presumably be damaged, it would just be less-than-lethal damage. Unless you can prove that Setsuno's soul took 0 damage.

In this case, I'd say it'd be like a person getting badly burned by a fire but they're still alive. That doesn't qualify them for Fire Resistance.

 

[Deceived3596]

I'm not misunderstanding it, I just don't think your interpretation is entirely correct. We've seen Joie punch through Food Spirits, sure, but does that effect apply to his ranged air pressure attacks? Not necessarily. Not like we've seen Joie cut a Food Spirit apart from a distance.

And also, even if we assumed that to be the case and Joie did inflict soul-damaging cuts to Setsuno's soul when Joie cut Setsuno's body... that's still not a resistance. Setsuno's soul would presumably be damaged, it would just be less-than-lethal damage. Unless you can prove that Setsuno's soul took 0 damage.

In this case, I'd say it'd be like a person getting badly burned by a fire but they're still alive. That doesn't qualify them for Fire Resistance.

You're actively creating possible weaknesses which aren't stated nor supported by the text itself, it's directly shown that people who have eaten PAIR are capable of interacting with and damaging souls. Regardless of the method of attack. Unless you can provide actual evidence which isn't unsupported speculation. My claim would hold truer.

The feat in specific would equate to an resistance as explained on our page "Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means". She actively resisted the effects induced by Joie's attack, which is why her soul wasn't slashed into pieces or why she wasn't killed. Unless you have contentions with our standards, this would fall directly under a resistance feat.

Aren't comparable situations, Setsuno was mostly fine after that attack, she wasn't damaged beyond repair, she was damaged for sure. But not to the point of being comparable to someone who survived after being burned badly.

 

[Damage3245]

You're actively creating possible weaknesses which aren't stated nor supported by the text itself, it's directly shown that people who have eaten PAIR are capable of interacting with and damaging souls. Regardless of the method of attack. Unless you can provide actual evidence which isn't unsupported speculation. My claim would hold truer.

The feat in specific would equate to an resistance as explained on our page "Resistance is the power to withstand the effects of certain abilities through varying means". She actively resisted the effects induced by Joie's attack, which is why her soul wasn't slashed into pieces or why she wasn't killed. Unless you have contentions with our standards, this would fall directly under a resistance feat.

I don't think your claim holds truer here unless you can provide some evidence that Setsuno actually withstood having her soul be damaged/destroyed/manipulated.

You claim she "actively resisted the effects induced by Joie's attack" but you're assuming in the first place that Joie's attack would slash her soul to pieces and I haven't seen any evidence for that.

Aren't comparable situations, Setsuno was mostly fine after that attack, she wasn't damaged beyond repair, she was damaged for sure. But not to the point of being comparable to someone who survived after being burned badly.

Why is "not being damaged beyond repair" relevant here? A person who is burned isn't "damaged beyond repair" either.


This is like adding "Resistance to Kinetic Energy" to profiles every time a character is hit by a punch but they don't die.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't know how many mods are familiar with Toriko but I know @Qawsedf234 is (I think), so I've pinged them for their input

I've read Toriko all the way through once and the Gourmet World stuff like two or three times. So my weakest area is the pre-timeskip stuff.

 

[Damage3245]

I've read Toriko all the way through once and the Gourmet World stuff like two or three times. So my weakest area is the pre-timeskip stuff.

No worries. The scenario is basically this from what I'm seeing:

- Joie has the ability to interact with souls/Food Spirits due to PAIR, and he launches an attack at Setsuno which Setsuno mostly manages to deflect via her kitchen knife, except some of it still leaves fine cuts on her body.

My issue is that this isn't really enough to count for Resistance to Soul Manipulation for her as it is no different than this attack:

- Joie has the ability to create fire, and he launches a fire attack at Setsuno which Setsuno mostly manages to deflect via her kitchen knife, except it still leaves some burns on her body.

Strictly speaking, Setsuno didn't do anything to "resist" the fire (AKA the soul attack), it still affected her to the degree we would expect it to affect her if she wasn't resistant to it. We obviously can't see Setsuno's soul so we have no real idea what state it is in even if we assume Joie did manage to hit her soul. Was her soul nicked like her body? Was it cut apart? We have no way of knowing that.

So since we can't prove her "Resistance to Soul Manipulation", it shouldn't be included.

 

[Deceived3596]

I don't think your claim holds truer here unless you can provide some evidence that Setsuno actually withstood having her soul be damaged/destroyed/manipulated.

You claim she "actively resisted the effects induced by Joie's attack" but you're assuming in the first place that Joie's attack would slash her soul to pieces and I haven't seen any evidence for that

I did, check the explanation provided, hell you even referenced the feat in question in your post above. Until you have an actual argument which isn't entirely constructed of unsupported assumptions, i don't believe we should continue the debate since it'll just devolve into ad nauseam. I doubt we'll change our opinions on this topic anytime soon.

That "assumption" is based off the fact the AOE of Joie's attack is massive, which is visually shown true, if i'm arguing that Joie's attacks have the innate ability to interact with and damage souls, than the AOE given would innately have shredded her soul into smithereens. The evidence is blatantly shown in the scan provided.

Why is "not being damaged beyond repair" relevant here? A person who is burned isn't "damaged beyond repair" either.


This is like adding "Resistance to Kinetic Energy" to profiles every time a character is hit by a punch but they don't die.

Why are you addressing the grammar of my argument rather than my points? the wording provided doesn't matter to the intent clearly given by the text. Address the intent, not the grammar.

It isn't, stop making these false equivalences, there's a massive difference between resisting an esoteric effect compared to "resisting" kinetic energy, one innately denotes a level of resistance, while the other denotes a level of durability. You're actually misunderstanding what "resistance" is categorized as on VSBW.

 

[Damage3245]

@Deceived3596 With respect, please stop correcting me by telling me that I'm just "misunderstanding" things when I disagree with your interpretation.

It's not going to make it any more likely for me to come to an epiphany that you're correct on this.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Strictly speaking, Setsuno didn't do anything to "resist" the fire (AKA the soul attack), it still affected her to the degree we would expect it to affect her if she wasn't resistant to it. We obviously can't see Setsuno's soul so we have no real idea what state it is in even if we assume Joie did manage to hit her soul. Was her soul nicked like her body? Was it cut apart? We have no way of knowing that.

The most I really see from it is that Setsuno isn't auto-killed by an attack that can touch her soul. Which can qualify as "better than a normal person" I guess, but otherwise it seems lore like NPI vs NPI.

The Guinness search also just removes someone's soul and people comparable to/stronger than Setsuno struggle with that far more than anything Joie had.

 

[Damage3245]

The most I really see from it is that Setsuno isn't auto-killed by an attack that can touch her soul. Which can qualify as "better than a normal person" I guess, but otherwise it seems lore like NPI vs NPI.

The Guinness search also just removes someone's soul and people comparable to/stronger than Setsuno struggle with that far more than anything Joie had.

Do you agree with that bit being removed from the proposal?

It's essentially being assumed how Setsuno should be affected by the attack, and since Setsuno wasn't affected by the attack like that, then it's being attributed to some Resistance she has instead of the assumption just possibly being wrong. We need more explicit evidence than that.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It mostly depends on how good we quantify PAIR's soul manipulation / NPI. If it's just touching the soul I don't think it counts (though some would argue without resistance it would be a one shot move with a direct strike). If they can completely manipulate or destroy a soul by hitting it, then she would need resistance.

 

[Damage3245]

It mostly depends on how good we quantify PAIR's soul manipulation / NPI. If it's just touching the soul I don't think it counts (though some would argue without resistance it would be a one shot move with a direct strike). If they can completely manipulate or destroy a soul by hitting it, then she would need resistance.

It's just physically interacting with them. Joie stabbed Kaka through the chest, but that's a physical strength feat and he didn't manipulat her soul or destroy her. Not any more than you'd expect from shoving a hand through a person's torso.

 

[Deceived3596]

It mostly depends on how good we quantify PAIR's soul manipulation / NPI. If it's just touching the soul I don't think it counts (though some would argue without resistance it would be a one shot move with a direct strike). If they can completely manipulate or destroy a soul by hitting it, then she would need resistance.

It would be Soul Manipulation since people with PAIR are capable of interacting with (which would be the NPI portion of PAIR) and damaging/destroying souls (which would be the Soul Manipulation portion of PAIR). For further context the person being damaged in the scan above is normally intangible to physical attacks since she's a soul, but after someone consumes PAIR, they're able to physically see and interact with food spirits. With this level of interaction allowing those to damage and kill souls.

I don't understand why Damage believes it's just NPI despite the fact it's actively shown they're able to damage and destroy souls, which is pretty bog standard Soul Manipulation.

 

[Damage3245]

It would be Soul Manipulation since people with PAIR are capable of interacting with (which would be the NPI portion of PAIR) and damaging/destroying souls (which would be the Soul Manipulation portion of PAIR). For further context the person being damaged in the scan above is normally intangible to physical attacks since she's a soul, but after someone consumes PAIR, they're able to physically see and interact with food spirits. With this level of interaction allowing those to damage and kill souls.

I don't understand why Damage believes it's just NPI despite the fact it's actively shown they're able to damage and destroy souls, which is pretty bog standard Soul Manipulation.

Being Non-Physical Interaction doesn't rule out Joie being able to harm souls.

You note that PAIR allows the user to physically interact with Food Spirits. Do you have anything that shows this extending beyond physical touch and applying to ranged attacks too?

 

[Deceived3596]

Being Non-Physical Interaction doesn't rule out Joie being able to harm souls.

?

Are you now agreeing with me that PAIR grants you Soul Manipulation or did you mistype?

You note that PAIR allows the user to physically interact with Food Spirits. Do you have anything that shows this extending beyond physical touch and applying to ranged attacks too?

Prove such a weakness exists. Appealing to unsubstantiated possibilities isn't a convincing, nor logically consistent argument. Also when i'm saying "physically" i'm not singularly referencing physical touch, but rather the colloquially known usage of "physically", which is just the general interaction with one's physical body. Regardless of mode.

 

[Damage3245]

?

Are you now agreeing with me that PAIR grants you Soul Manipulation or did you mistype?

I already acknowledged that Joie can harm Food Spirits. It's not Joie's Soul Manipulation that I'm trying to remove. What I'm arguing about is the specific details of that Soul Manipulation and whether or not Setsuno should qualify for Resistance to Soul Manipulation.

Prove such a weakness exists. Appealing to unsubstantiated possibilities isn't a convincing, nor logically consistent argument. Also when i'm saying "physically" i'm not singularly referencing physical touch, but rather the colloquially known usage of "physically", which is just the general interaction with one's physical body. Regardless of mode.

You're the one making the positive claim when it comes to the ability. The only time we've seen the characters who have eaten PAIR interacting with Food Spirits is through physical touch, and for characters who haven't eaten PAIR they're shown to be unable unable to physically touch them. Unless you have additional information or explanations about PAIR from the manga, it is an assumption that Joie's ranged air-cuts would have the ability to cut through souls.

And, I don't want us to overlook that you're already assuming that this ability to interact with souls automatically works the same way when you're interacting with someone who is flesh-and-blood. I mean, you may consider me overly skeptical on this but it seems to me that you're assuming Joie's air-cuts would just phase through Setsuno's body somehow and directly target her soul when no such thing is indicated as far as I can tell.

You're saying "You're making up a weakness that doesn't exist".... but it seems to me that you're making up an ability that isn't proven to exist, in order to justify another ability that doesn't exist.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It would be Soul Manipulation since people with PAIR are capable of interacting with (which would be the NPI portion of PAIR) and damaging/destroying souls (which would be the Soul Manipulation portion of PAIR).

That's not Soul Manipulation

It should be noted that the ability to interact with souls and other non-corporeal entities directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered Non-Physical Interaction and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate souls in other contexts.

Soul Manipulation would be like, ripping out souls, drinking souls or controlling souls. Just punching or killing a soul is NPI.

 

[Deceived3596]

That's not Soul Manipulation

Soul Manipulation would be like, ripping out souls, drinking souls or controlling souls. Just punching or killing a soul is NPI.

It's both?

Harming, killing, cleaving etc souls has always been considered as a form of Soul Manipulation, alongside Non-Physical Interaction.

 

[Qawsedf234]

It's both?

I think just punching a ghost is NPI. If killing a ghost is Soul Manipulation, then it would still just be NPI that has the ability to kill a ghost, which doesn't mean much to Setsuno.

 

[Deceived3596]

I think just punching a ghost is NPI. If killing a ghost is Soul Manipulation, then it would still just be NPI that has the ability to kill a ghost, which doesn't mean much to Setsuno.

If you're able to resist you soul being damage, you have a resistance to a form Soul Manipulation/NPI, it innately follows.

Similar to how resisting the heat generated by the core of the sun innately grants you resistance to high temperatures.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If you're able to resist you soul being damage, you have a resistance to a form Soul Manipulation/NPI, it innately follows.

But that's for targeted soul attacks, rather than just the ability to resist attacks from NPI.

Though I guess the ability to damage a soul may count for baseline soul resistance, but it would be regarding just soul damage more than anything.

 

[Deceived3596]

But that's for targeted soul attacks, rather than just the ability to resist attacks from NPI.

Both interact with the soul, regardless of the specific effect tbh.

Though I guess the ability to damage a soul may count for baseline soul resistance, but it would be regarding just soul damage more than anything.

That's what i'm arguing tbh, it's just a baseline resistance to Soul Manipulation which can only damage the soul, meaning Soul Manipulation which forcefully removes it from one's body, and anything else similar to that wouldn't be resisted by said resistance.

 

[Damage3245]

But it's not like we can see Setsuno's soul and say she resisted the damage.

We have no actual proof of Resistance.

If it was noted "That attack should have shredded your soul" for example, that'd be a viable case where it could be applied even when we don't directly see her soul.

 

[Deceived3596]

I already addressed that argument in my previous posts.

Not going to readdress it again.