Overall Bleach Pre-Timeskip Speed Upgrade

[Tivanenk]

So in most profiles in Bleach, we have High Hypersonic standing for even speedy characters (Ichigo, Yamamoto, Yoruichi, Soi Fon, etc.) for pre-timeskip. Yet this doesn't make sense for the most part. First, we have MHS+ standing on Kyouraku's profile:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shunsui_Kyōraku

Someone like Yamamoto was easily whacking Kyouraku with ease. If Kyouraku was that much faster, he would have just blitzed Yamamoto many times over.

Second, the fact that Bambi fodder massively outspeeds some of the most important and strongest Shinigami is laughable, especially considering that Shinigami won their previous war over the Sternritter. How could that have happened when even Sternritter fodder massively outspeed even Shinigami top tiers?

Third, there is no indication that most received any training. There are some exceptions, like Byakuya who received training with the Royal Guard, but most of the Shinigami didn't buckle down and begin training hardcore, especially since there were still recovering from Aizen's attack. Plus, Shinigami spent hundreds of years training to their current state. For someone like Yama or Kyouraku who lived a thousand years or close to, to suddenly receive a massive speed upgrade out of nowhere over a 17 month period? It just doesn't make any sense.

So I'm advocating for an overall Bleach pre-timeskip upgrade. Of course, some characters would need to reviewed on a case to case basis, but some, like these:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yoruichi_Shihoi

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Shigekuni_Yamamoto_Genryusai

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Urahara_Kisuke

Need to be increased to MHS+ even pre-timeskip because it wouldn't make sense for them to have a lower speed than that.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

This was brought forth many times and I have no clue why it was ignored

 

[Tivanenk]

This was brought forth many times and I have no clue why it was ignored

I also forgot to add one point and that is that Yhwach said Yamamoto has weakened over a 1000 years. So that's another point that makes the stats not make sense.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Now I remember...it was said that there was no MHS+ feat in part 1...however the assumption that the older captains got over 10x faster in just 2 years brings bigger inconsistency than not having actual MHS+ feat

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Question: Why is Gin Bankai speed overlooked here?

He said that he lied to Aizen about his overral technique, which bypass durability.

He was in Shikai, nowhere says that he was in Bankai. Since there was along time skip to when he fought Ichigo to when he pierced Aizen and he didn't say "Bankai" like everyone does before using it.

He was not using Bankai againt's Aizen. So that speed and rage could had been his Shikai.

The Speed was from his Bankai:

http://i.imgur.com/vg0dQCh.jpg

Who Ichigo manage to dodge.

Like how Raditz was able to barely dodge Piccolo's special beam canon, and still got power scale to it:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/12/124813/2516138-raditz_dodges_ftl_beam3.jpg

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Chojiro is a lighting timer and it was specify that he could manipulate the weather and was compare to Hitsugaya who manipulated the weather back when he fought Hallibel in the real world. If he can control real weather he can control real lighting.

 

[Tivanenk]

Chojiro is a lighting timer and it was specify that he could manipulate the weather and was compare to Hitsugaya who manipulated the weather back when he fought Hallibel in the real world. If he can control real weather he can control real lighting.

Oh yeah, the guy that Ichigo in Shikai blitzed. I remember in SS arc, Ichigo was stated to be faster than lightning or something like that (maybe it was in the data book, but don't quote me on that). This is even more proof that Shinigami are faster than a mere High HS.

 

[HokageMangaVox]

Chojiro is a lighting timer and it was specify that he could manipulate the weather and was compare to Hitsugaya who manipulated the weather back when he fought Hallibel in the real world. If he can control real weather he can control real lighting.

Oh yeah, the guy that Ichigo in Shikai blitzed. I remember in SS arc, Ichigo was stated to be faster than lightning or something like that (maybe it was in the data book, but don't quote me on that). This is even more proof that Shinigami are faster than a mere High HS.

Here:

http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/11123/111230790/4855261-5626556303-41291.jpg

In this part:

 

[Antvasima]

Illuminati478 and Schutzendunkelziel used to handle the Bleach threads and their statistics scaling. However, SDZ has quit the wiki, and Illuminati isn't very active anymore. You should probably still ask the latter about it though.

 

[Byakuya_"Senbonzakura"_Kuchiki]

Illuminati478 and Schutzendunkelziel used to handle the Bleach threads and their statistics scaling. However, SDZ has quit the wiki, and Illuminati isn't very active anymore. You should probably still ask the latter about it though.

Might wanna ask Aizen or Pietro to handle it.

 

[Non-Bias]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yXkNOLUfjUA/Vi77f4WdQaI/AAAAAAABKPY/atHA5tMv1DY/s16000/0414-016.png

^ Kind of kills the point of this thread if you ask me.

 

[LordAizenSama]

we've had a very long discussion about this here

Personally I think they are rated too low as it is, a few of your points mirrored what I said, But I don't see it changing anytime soon unfortunately.

 

[Tivanenk]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yXkNOLUfjUA/Vi77f4WdQaI/AAAAAAABKPY/atHA5tMv1DY/s16000/0414-016.png
^ Kind of kills the point of this thread if you ask me.

Honestly, there are a couple of speeds on here that don't make sense (like MFTL Polnareff), but we still take them. And we don't really know Gin Bankai's speed anyways. Plus he caught Aizen off guard. He's a sly bastard.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, it is best to leave a message at Illuminati's wall and wait for a while before we change anything. That said, I have had similar concerns myself about that the older Shinigami captains logically shouldn't have been powered up much over the course of the story.

 

[Non-Bias]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yXkNOLUfjUA/Vi77f4WdQaI/AAAAAAABKPY/atHA5tMv1DY/s16000/0414-016.png^ Kind of kills the point of this thread if you ask me.

Honestly, there are a couple of speeds on here that don't make sense (like MFTL Polnareff), but we still take them. And we don't really know Gin Bankai's speed anyways. Plus he caught Aizen off guard. He's a sly bastard.

Gin tells tells Ichigo his Bankai is 500 times faster than a clap, which translates to a perfect mach 500. Yet he said this because he wanted to keep the true power of his sword a secret from Aizen. He said that he lied about the speed of his Bankai, which means that it's obviously not Mach 500. Because of this, it's impossible to gauge the speed of how fast his Bankai really is.

In the thread that Aizen linked above, I do believe that it was asked if anyone could find any good speed feats for pre time skip Bleach and everyone came up empty handed. Can you think of any speed feats that would suggest that Bleach characters were really as fast as you're saying?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, it is best to leave a message at Illuminati's wall and wait for a while before we change anything. That said, I have had similar concerns myself about that the older Shinigami captains logically shouldn't have been powered up much over the course of the story.

They didn't, there is zero indication they received any power up. Shunsui is a 1000 year old person, if he didn't become MHS+ in 1000 years, he ain't getting that fast in 2 years. Our current speed stats brings inconsistency.

Either Shunsui's past form gets upgraded to MHS+, or his current gets downgraded. They got no power up nor training.

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

It's likely the espada will have to be upgraded as well, however they have little feats to support this so it'll be inconsistent in an entirely different way.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

It's likely the espada will have to be upgraded as well, however they have little feats to support this so it'll be inconsistent in an entirely different way.

We can excuse the lack of feats, author doesn't keep those in mind while writing story

inconsistency with story is much bigger concern than inconsisteny with feats as story determines powerscale, not feats. I have no problem with downgrading the speed if necessary, but current speed stats are no good

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

Do you think we should view Bambietta's feat as an outlier in that case?

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Do you think we should view Bambietta's feat as an outlier in that case?

I don't mind if it turns out to be outlier, I would take consistency over anything any day.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Do you think we should view Bambietta's feat as an outlier in that case?

I doubt it is an outleir as ichigo had a MHS feat right before that

 

[LordAizenSama]

even if you called it a outlier (it's not btw) you would just run into the same issue with the next speed feat we used.

rukia and renji mach 300, Ichigo mach 500. whatever it is. would rukia scale to yamamoto,aizen pretimeskip, etc,etc

 

[Basilisk1995]

I agree that it abssolutely doesn't make sense.

The captains have no reason to get suddenly faster (like 35x) after a 2 year timeskip.

But my dear friend fiction doesn't make sense. In arrancar saga captains and all bleach characters are Mach 29. But in quincy saga they are mach 1000+. Both stats come from legitimate feat calculations. Even if it is ridiculouly inconsistent we have to live with it and maybe add a key or explaination that differs their speed stats in different sagas.

And this happens in other verses as well.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

I agree that it abssolutely doesn't make sense.
The captains have no reason to get suddenly faster (like 35x) after a 2 year timeskip.

But my dear friend fiction doesn't make sense. In arrancar saga captains and all bleach characters are Mach 29. But in quincy saga they are mach 1000+. Both stats come from legitimate feat calculations. Even if it is ridiculouly inconsistent we have to live with it and maybe add a key or explaination that differs their speed stats in different sagas.

Story >>>>> Feat calc any day. If we don't fix inconsistency it's better to put them at unknown or downgrade. Inconsistency shouldn't be accepted unless we don't have option. Here we do have option.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

Do you think we should view Bambietta's feat as an outlier in that case?

I doubt it is an outleir as ichigo had a MHS feat right before that

Can you post that calc as a blog?

 

[Basilisk1995]

@Faisal Shourov So your suggestion is we either upgrade almost entire Bleach-verse to Mach 1000+ or downgrade almost entire Bleach-verse to Mach 29. I have feeling that says none of that will happen.

 

[LordAizenSama]

@basilisk the arguments a bit harder than that.

it's amplified by the fact the despite blitzing eachother over and over again, they are all rated mach 29 because they don't have quantifiable feats that we accept

ever since chapter 130 something when ichigo blitz'd byakuyas bankai, to base Aizen in chapter 400-something 7 years later.(real life speaking of course), everyone inbetween of relevence is mach 29.

ill throw another spin on it:

Orihime is mach 15 right now. so shes half as fast as yamamoto, Aizen pretimeskip, etc etc. and she's about as fodder as fodder can get. so you can see why people can have issues with this.

 

[Basilisk1995]

That calc takes like only two lines. Ichigo travelled a distance which would take Mach 29 characters 7 days in 9 hours or so (don't remember it exactly).

So Ichigo's Speed = Mach ((29 * (168/9)) = Mach 541.33

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

He have already talked about this many times , verses recieve power aps especially after time skips so due to the general inconsiestences powerscaling pre time skip to post time skip isn't a good idea.

Inconsiestences are part of the fiction and for such a general one there isn't going to be a downgrade nor an upgrade in speed stats.

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

That calc takes like only two lines. Ichigo travelled a distance which would take Mach 29 characters 7 days in 9 hours or so (don't remember it exactly).
So Ichigo's Speed = Mach ((29 * (168/9)) = Mach 541.33

There is a chance that this falls under the calc stacking category

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal Shourov So your suggestion is we either upgrade almost entire Bleach-verse to Mach 1000+ or downgrade almost entire Bleach-verse to Mach 29. I have feeling that says none of that will happen.

Pietro says he has a MHS calc for Ichigo pre TS. If that's accepted we can possibly upgrade some arrancars based on that. Not everybody scales to Bambi fodder, I don't see anybody less than senior captain above MHS rating.

And old Captains without any doubt should either upgraded or downgraded, or kept unknown. It makes no sense for Shunsui to get that much faster in 2 years. That's the reason Sakura was downgraded to 7-C from 7-A, otherwise she would be equal to BM Naruto based on statement and databook. Sakura received no power up in the story to get that strong. We're trying to be as accurate as possible. If a downgrade is in order, I don't mind

My post is mostly about the Old Captains

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

^i didn't mean pre timeskip, i meant after he finished his training at the Royal palace

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

@Faisal you are comparing irrelevant stuff.

 

[Basilisk1995]

@Faisal Shourov The calc Pietro is talking about is the one that I wrote in the previous reply. It isn't pre-timeskip. It's post-timeskip.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal you are comparing irrelevant stuff.

I'm saying we have to fix inconsistency wherever possible. Anyway, my concern is about the Old Captains mostly, not others

 

[TheMightyRegulator]

That calc takes like only two lines. Ichigo travelled a distance which would take Mach 29 characters 7 days in 9 hours or so (don't remember it exactly).

So Ichigo's Speed = Mach ((29 * (168/9)) = Mach 541.33

I agree with Kkapoios. This is calc stacking.

 

[Faisal_Shourov]

@Faisal Shourov The calc Pietro is talking about is the one that I wrote in the previous reply. It isn't pre-timeskip. It's post-timeskip.

Yeah I misunderstood that part. I don't care about upgrading the verse, the Old Captains stats are my concern mostly since the inconsistency mainly comes from them

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

^That's not calc stacking.....

 

[Gwynbleiddd]

Well we can't always fix inconsistencies ,most of the time we take the minimum stats so we can be sure ,but here it is different ,the MHS+ speed is concistant in post time skip while not pre time skip so i believe there stats should remain the same.

 

[Peter_"Quicksilver"_Maximoff]

Well we can't always fix inconsistencies ,most of the time we take the minimum stats so we can be sure ,but here it is different ,the MHS+ speed is concistant in post time skip while not pre time skip so i believe there stats should remain the same.

agreed