Our rules on Acausality

[FateAlbane]

Anyways, people, I'll give my final position on this matter:

I am with Reppu's suggestion that was mostly agreed upon so far, in regards to the definition of Acausality.

Now when it comes to what happens to TP Immunity, I'm mostly neutral - whether it stays, whether it goes as one lower type of Acausality or anything else, I'll go with what the majority decides to do with this one - so I'll trust your judgement in regards to that.

That's all from me here.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Fate, I don't like acausality because it's either an NLF, or doesn't follow what it means to be acausal. However, it has been impressed upon me that it is the exact same thing with immortality, so I am willing to let it be. What I want is for it to be clear that merely surviving the past being altered does not suddenly grant immunity to all forms of causality manipulation ever, which is exactly what it was treated as before I did the original revision and got TPI added. If rewriting the acausality page, or adding new types of acausality accomplishes that, I am a-ok with that.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, again, here are the pages that you need to update according to the new definition:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Time_Paradox_Immunity_Users

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Time_Paradox_Immunity?limit=500

 

[FateAlbane]

snip

Yes, hence why I'll be in agreements with what you all end up deciding in regards to TP immunity, since as I pointed out through the thread, I can also see where you're coming from in regards to the Time Paradox thing.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Magi
Please tell me you're joking. Resisting the Grandfather Paradox is a blatant example of ignoring Causality.

Yes but Acausality & Time Paradox Immunity still should be separated and you could just add both to the profiles for less confusion (just pointing it out).

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Reppuzan's suggested wording mostly seems fine, but would prefer if the text also clarifies the different degrees of the ability. I.e. on a basic scale it renders a character immune to being killed in the past, and on a greater scale the character is highly resistant to much wider laws of cause and effect.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Antvasima

That could work, and what about this:

Time Paradox Immunity (Basic scale)

Acausality (Regular)

High-level Acausality (High/Greater scale)


Also no, removing Time Paradox Immunity would not be necessary.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And the difference between regular Acausality and high level acausality would be..?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

And the difference between regular Acausality and high level acausality would be..?

Well I hate to say this but high-level acausality would most likely be restricted to anyone who is 1-A and higher, everyone else below 1-A would have regular acausality and/or Time Paradox Immunity.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I meant the functional difference. Not who gets it

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I meant the functional difference. Not who gets it

Ok, let's see.

For High-level Acausality you must be either immune to a major amount or all types of both Low & Mid levels of Casuality Manipulation.


For regular Acausality you must be immune to only Low levels of Causality Manipulation.


Simple enough or no?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And how would you define low or mid levels of causality manipulation?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

And how would you define low or mid levels of causality manipulation?

For High-level Acausality, you would have to be immune to Science, Superpower, High-level Reality Warping and/or (High-level) Fate Manipulation (which are mid levels of Casuality) & the low levels of Casuality Manipulation as well.

Edit: Re-edited the corrections

For regular Acausality, you would have to be immune to only Death, (regular) Fate, and/or Variable Manipulation which are low levels of Casuality Manipulation.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Stop using superpowers from the superpower wiki. "Meta Fate Manipulation" isn't a thing. It's literally just someone's fancy name for an ill defined but definitely more powerful (sarcasm there) fate manipulation.

Most of the things you said there aren't related to causality. And how would you define what causality manipulation is more powerful than other causality manipulation?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Stop using superpowers from the superpower wiki. "Meta Fate Manipulation" isn't a thing. It's literally just someone's fancy name for an ill defined but definitely more powerful (sarcasm there) fate manipulation.
Most of the things you said there aren't related to causality. And how would you define what causality manipulation is more powerful than other causality manipulation?

1. Science & Variable are related to casuality and yes, they would be considered a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And how would you determine what causality manipulation is more powerful than another?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

And how would you determine what causality manipulation is more powerful than another?

High-level Casuality Manipulation: Science Manipulation, Reality Warping, High-level Fate Manipulation, and Superp...you get the point.


Regular/Low-level Casuality Manipulation: Fate Manipulation, Death Manipulation, and Variable Manipulation.


I will continue this tomorrow & I gotta rest now.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Listing other powers does not show what causality manipulation is stronger than another causality manipulation.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

How about this

Acausality:

Type 1 - user can retain their memories of the previous timeline if the past is altered. If they die in the past, they still die in the future

Type 2 - user continues to exist even if killed in the past.

Type 3 - user can resist causality manipulation that is still works with the system of causality, such as the reversal of cause and effect, e.g. Lancer's Gae Bolg reversing cause and effect.

Type 4 - user can resist effects caused by the complete destruction or fundamental aleration of the system of causality. Is different to type 3, because while type 3 is still working on the same principles of causality, type 4 alters those principles. For example, All Fiction completely destroying both cause and effect to erase something.

Type 5 - User is completely transcendent to cause and effect. They are unable to be affected by any cause working by their dimensional time/

 

[Promestein]

I'd rather not combine normal resistance to Causality Manipulation with Acausality.

 

[The_Everlasting]

As I said before, I don't see why we can't just explain the basis behind the ability and have to relegate it to types.

 

[Newendigo]

I think different level would be better because we could compare better feats of acasuality. Is more easy to undestand.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I am fine with simply explaining the ability and mentioning that there are different degrees of it, as long as it is done properly.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I'm in agreement with the fact that "acausal" abilities can be split into levels/types.

A being who is immune to being killed in the past but is otherwise normal has a minor type of acausality in their setting, though if they can be killed in the present, they are obviously not acausal to the fullest extent.

This would be different from the acausality for something like Slaanesh, which is on a much higher level.

Giving "true acausality" or something to only 1-A beings is a bad idea. Especially since many 1-A beings still operate under the simple principle of "I have been hit, therefore I take damage".

 

[DodoNova2]

I'm fine with the definition of monarch even though I have a hard time understanding the difference between type III and IV

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the evaluation Azathoth.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I'd rather not combine normal resistance to Causality Manipulation with Acausality.

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

What Acausality is = transcendence from cause and effect

What it does = resistance to causality manipulation and time paradoxes

Is there anything else it does?

Because if not, why don't we just get rid of acausality altogether, seeing as it's covered by resistance to causality manipulation and time paradox immunity already?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I disagree with you entirely, Monarch, you are just making things needlessly complicated and obtuse.

Let's simplify it again.

 

[DodoNova2]

I disagree with you entirely, Monarch, you are just making things needlessly complicated and obtuse.
Let's simplify it again.

What did you propose? the definition of Repp? Dragon?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Listing other powers does not show what causality manipulation is stronger than another causality manipulation.

Anything else that may be wrong with it @Monarch?

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I don't think acausality should even be a power.

If all we are saying it means is that they can resist causality manipulation and time paradoxes, then we already have abilities for those two things, and why do we even need acausality ? If it gives some other benefit, what is that benefit?

And if you want to delete TPI and say surviving time paradoxes is acausality instead, I disagree seeing as that means you would be disregarding the true implications of acausality's definition while ignoring that TPI easily, understandably and accurately defines the power to survive a time paradox anyway. It would be like naming the Invulnerability page Omni-lock. Sure it technically incorporates invulnerability into itself, but its also so much more.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

I honestly agree with what Azzy, Matt and Fate said here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Monarch, you are still treating Acausality by its most illogical NLF interpretation. Please stop.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Honestly, adding both Acausality and TPI to the profiles would make it less confusing tbh. Mixing 2 different definitions into Acausality was never a good idea at all.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Monarch, you are still treating Acausality by its most illogical NLF interpretation. Please stop.

Well then how would you define it, if not by its definition?

Tell me. Right now

What do you think acausality does?

What makes it different from resistance to causality manipulation, or time paradox immunity?

 

[DaFritzi]

I agree with Monarch. We don't treat Acausality by an "illogical NLF interpretation", we treat it by its very dictionary definition.

Just using "Partial Acausality" instead and defining it as "lacking ties to one or more cause-effect relationships" would entirely rid us of this whole problem.

I don't really understand the problem you have with this. It wouldn't be prone to NLF, would be according to commonly used dictonary definitions and would be easier to understand then what we have now. It would have both the accuracy Monarch and me desire and the simplicity to understand you want.

We can further define the nature of it by using types like Monarch suggested or just via a note on the charas page.

Also if you think nobody should have actual acausality we can remove this ability entirely. I would keep the page however so that people can check out the differences between partial and actual Acausality.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

There should only be 2 levels of Acausality to make it simple: High-level Acausality and just Acausality while TPI should be a separate superpower so that way we add both superpowers in the profiles to make it less complicated.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

And what would "just Acausality" mean? What would it do?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matt
I honestly don't care if we remove Time Paradox Immunity or not.

But if we do, I'd like to revise our current definition of Acausality.

Acausality is the ability to be unaffected by attacks reliant on cause and effect or changes to the past. For example, being killed or having one's history changed a significant amount of time in the past will not affect an Acausal character in the present or future. However, these characters are not immortal and are often vulnerable to attacks and thus being killed in the present.

This clears up any confusion about being unhinged from the laws of cause and effect when compared to our current definition.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

But we already have both Time Paradox Immunity covering the "unnaffected by changes to the past" and Resistance to Causality Manipulation covers to "unnaffected by attacks reliant on cause and effect"

So why do we need to lump them both into acausality?