Our rules on Acausality

[Monarch_Laciel]

If that part is made clearer then, I'm good with it.

 

[FateAlbane]

Again, that definition of "Acausality nopes everything" will make the page utterly obsolete as only High 1-As and 0s do that sort of thing... And they don't need it listed.

 

[The_Everlasting]

And again, literally no fiction treats Acausality as "Nothing hurts you ever".

EDIT: Ninja'd by Fate.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Matthew
Well, I have a serious problem listing, for example, The Doctor (Doctor Who) with full acausality, simply because he is resistant to changes in his past timeline. Separating the abilities is far less confusing to casual visitors, as they will know exactly which ability that the characters have demonstrated.

We will gain nothing, and make the wiki more confusing with more NLF interpretations, if we start an unnecessary revision project for this, when we are already planning a few far more relevant ones.

I am advocating for the complete Opposite of this, and me, Reppuzan, Everlasting, Darkanine and Promestein are all for already changing the Acausality definition to something Repp came up with.

We want to:

• Make the definition of Acausality less absolute / extreme
• Make it clear that not all Acausalities are equal, they can be of lower or higher level depending on the feat
• Make it clear that being Acausal does not mea that your character can't be killed in the present

Our current definition of Acausality is a NLF and the separation of Time Paradox Immunity makes things confusing.

We are advocating for making things less confusing.

 

[Antvasima]

In any case, here are the pages that would need to be modified. There is a lesser amount than I thought:

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Time_Paradox_Immunity_Users

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Time_Paradox_Immunity?limit=500

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

You are right. It would be obselete. In fact, we could get rid of the page completely, just like we got rid of omnilock, and only have Resistance (to causality manipulation) and Time Paradox Immunity in its place.

People arguing that fiction "doesn't treat acausality like that", ok, what does fiction treat it like then? When does fiction call it acausality? Or is that just the word that this wiki uses to describe not being affected by timeline alterations?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Monarch

No. We get rid of Time Paradox Immunity and fix the definition of Acausality. Simple, you are making things overly complicated by diving into metaphysics and semantics and literal interpretations of the meaning of the word. Your definition of Acausality certainly sounds more accurate, but it clearly isn't, characters who are Acausal can still often be punched in the face.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Well, in that case you should make it clear in the character profiles currently listed with time paradox immunity that they have only demonstrated the most basic degree of the acausality ability.

Perhaps you could list time paradox immunity as "Type I" and higher degrees as "Type II", etcetera?

 

[The_Everlasting]

Atheon from Destiny is explicitly described as defying simple causality.

Doesn't stop you from shooting him with a gun or punching him in the face.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

I think it would be good to explain on the Acausality page that there are multiple levels of Acausality and list examples of it. I'm not sure about Type I and Type II, tho, as that would require mass editing of the pages listed with Acausality.

But as long as the individual pages explain why a character is Acausal and the users read the Acausality page, they will understand that not all Acausals are equal.

 

[Joseph619]

@Matthew
Well, in that case you should make it clear in the character profiles with time paradox immunity that they have only demonstrated the most basic degree of the ability.

Perhaps you could list time paradox immunity as "Type I" and higher degrees as "Type II", etcetera?

Acausality could be adjusted like the regen page to make distinctions between the types, I guess

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with Matt and the others here, our current definition for acausality is far too complicated and acausal beings in fiction can still get hurt, taking a literal definition for it means it will only apply to omnipotent beings, we simply need to improve the current definition and mention that there are varying levels of acausality, no need to over complicate it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

I honestly see no necessity in types.

Just list what the person's acausality entails. It's simple.

Like, for Atheon's theoretical page.

"Acausality (Stated to be an entity that defies causality)"

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

We want to:

Except Acausality IS an absolute.

Barring the whole "higher time causality" thing, causality on its own time system is an absolute, because being transcendent to causality means you are transcendent to it. Like that example with the river being causality and acausals standing outside it, so no matter what happens in the river or how strongly it flows, they won't be affected.

Acausality -"not governed or operating by the laws of cause and effect.". As in, just not.

I personally, don't think that acausality should even be a power listed, seeing as by its very definition, it can only apply to really high level characters, but while its listed here, I want it to be accurate, and if "acausality isn't treated like that in fiction" is your argument, then it isn't accurate to call it acausality

 

[Newendigo]

Perhaps you could list time paradox immunity as "Type I" and higher degrees as "Type II", etcetera? Acausality could be adjusted like the regen page to make distinctions between the types, I guess

Pretty much this, it would be far better than make divisions like "Acasuality", "Resistance to Casuality", "Low level Acasuality" and "Time Paradox Inmunety".

 

[Antvasima]

Well, again, it would cause massive NLF misunderstandings among our visitors, if we modify all of the character profiles currently listed with time paradox immunity to simply state "acausality", without any further clarifications.

If you are absolutely determined to change them, and have roused support for this, fine, but you need to make it clear that they only have the basic degree of the ability.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Well, again, it would cause massive NLF misunderstandings among our visitors, if we modify all of the character profiles currently listed with time paradox immunity to simply state "acausality", without any further clarifications.
If you are absolutely determined to change them, and have roused support for this, fine, but you need to make it clear that they only have the basic degree of the ability.

This is my intent.

 

[The_Everlasting]

@Monarch

Then what would you call the Darkness from Destiny, a Tier 2 literally stated to be acausal?

 

[Promestein]

Of course we'd give an elaboration. If someone has the feats to support a stronger form of Acausality, that'd be specified, but otherwise, it wouldn't be.

Again, people are overcomplicating things. As it is now it's nearly incomprehensible and any efforts to make it even more complex are just gonna make that worse. A lot of arguments are also based solely off of semantics as opposed to clarity, and clarity is much more important here.

 

[Antvasima]

Except Acausality IS an absolute.

Barring the whole "higher time causality" thing, causality on its own time system is an absolute, because being transcendent to causality means you are transcendent to it. Like that example with the river being causality and acausals standing outside it, so no matter what happens in the river or how strongly it flows, they won't be affected.

Acausality -"not governed or operating by the laws of cause and effect.". As in, just not.

I personally, don't think that acausality should even be a power listed, seeing as by its very definition, it can only apply to really high level characters, but while its listed here, I want it to be accurate, and if "acausality isn't treated like that in fiction" is your argument, then it isn't accurate to call it acausality

That said, for the record, I still think that Monarch Laciel is matter-of-fact correct regarding this issue, even if Matthew is good at arguing about it.

 

[The_Everlasting]

Also, Monarch, if you're complaining that how fiction treats acausality to not make it acausality, then immortality isn't judged correctly by fiction either.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

@Monarch
Then what would you call the Darkness from Destiny, a Tier 2 literally stated to be acausal?

Writer not understanding implications

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I do agree the acausality page needs to be changed though. It just isn't very good at explaining the power

 

[The_Everlasting]

What implications?

There's no "high tier" nonsense about acausality, you're just arguing needless semantics.

Again, by what you're saying, no fictional character is immortal because immortality is the inability to die in any way.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Antvasima

He is correct in his literal interpretation of the word Acausality, just like how I would be correct in the following literal interpretation of Immortality:

Immortality - "Unbound by mortality, Incapable of dying". As in, they simply can't die. An Immortal cannot die by any means, or they wouldn't be Immortal.

This is technically correct from a semantics point of view, but we obviously can't treat Immortality like this in fiction.

 

[FateAlbane]

If we treat Acausality as literally some absolute with no limitations, do we say every Reality Warper is also invincible in their dimension by virtue of Reality Warping having every application?

Or that every Space Manipulator can do all the applications throughout the entirety of the spatial dimensions?

Or that Matter Manipulators instantly are able to do it on quantic levels with no limits whatsoever?

...This is literally taking the power and using it to the absolute extreme unlimited interpretation of it based on semantics alone.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

What implications?
There's no "high tier" nonsense about acausality, you're just arguing needless semantics.

Again, by what you're saying, no fictional character is immortal because immortality is the inability to die in any way.

The implications of someone being removed from cause and effect. If it can be affected by someone working by the same dimensional time, it isn't removed from cause and affect.

I don't think I've ever said anything about "high tier"

Ok. Point taken. But a character staying alive when their past self dies does not make them immune to all causality manipulation ever. Which is the NLF Matt was talking about, so I think we agree there.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Wait a second, why are we still considering Time Paradox Immunity and Acausality as technically the same thing if neither of them are supposed to be associated with each together, like at all?

Acausality: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Causality_Immunity

"User can control causality, the relationship between causes and effects, allowing them to literally decide what happens and what doesn't, when and how. There is no need for a "why" however, as the why of something is determined by causality itself, which is at the users' command, making it one of the few powers that reasonably don't need a reason."


Time Paradox Immunity:

"The user is able to exist even when history is changed: for example, if someone were to go back in time and kill the user's ancestors, the user exists still as if their ancestors' murder did not happen at all. If they were killed by someone in the past via time travel, they will still be alive in the present. Normally this will cause others user knows to completely forget about them like they did not exist before, though sometimes the user can make it so that a few people, or even everyone they know would still know who they are as if they do exist."


These definitions are nowhere near the same thing & we can simply just add both instead.

Also, I noticed that there should be 3 different levels of Acausality: Low, Mid, and High according to the levels of Casuality here: http://powerlisting.wikia.com/wiki/Causality_Manipulation

 

[FateAlbane]

@Magi I'm neutral in regards to what happens to TP immunity, so on this part of the discussion I have nothing to say.

 

[Promestein]

Stop using Powerlisting as a reference, our standards are extremely different to the point of being incompatible when you get to things like this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Promestein is correct, and other users, myself included, have pointed this out to you.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Stop using Powerlisting as a reference, our standards are extremely different to the point of being incompatible when you get to things like this.

Yea, and very confusing to the point that we're assuming that Acausality = Time Paradox Immnunity when they aren't even associated with each other nor having the same meaning.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Do we have a difference set between Causality Manipulation immunity and accausality?

 

[Magi_Hussie]

Do we have a difference set between Causality Manipulation immunity and accausality?

Time Paradox Immunity and Acausality should clearly be separated since they have no relation with each other.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

Barring things like soulless characters being immune to soul manipulation, we don't ever say someone is immune to something, seeing as a stronger version of the ability being resisted could be all that is necessary to overcome it.

Which is part of the problem with acausality.

 

[FateAlbane]

@Magi Just pointing out that what kills someone in a Time Paradox is the Principle of Causal Structure of Space and Time as well as something similar to Causal Loops.

So yes, while I'm not arguing in favor or against this point, the general idea of Time Paradoxes has everything to do with Causality.

 

[FateAlbane]

Which is part of the problem with acausality.

By this reasoning we would delete every non type 5 immortality on the basis of "They can still die somehow".

 

[Magi_Hussie]

@Magi Just pointing out that what kills someone in a Time Paradox is the Principle of Causal Structure of Space and Time as well as something similar to Causal Loops.
So yes, while I'm not arguing in favor or against this point, the general idea of Time Paradoxes has everything to do with Causality.

Just add both for the profiles, it honestly doesn't matter really imo.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Magi

Please tell me you're joking. Resisting the Grandfather Paradox is a blatant example of ignoring Causality.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew & The Everlasting

Okay. I rest my case then. However, as agreed, we still have to clarify the displayed limitations of the acausality ability for the characters currently listed with time paradox immunity.