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Oryx VS Grandfather spider

"By this logic resistance to resistance negation is impossible."

You can resist resistance negation in Wizard101. The only problem is that Shadow magic doesn't care about resistance. It's technically possible to resist certain aspects of Shadow magic, but again that can be negated as well via piercing and Shadow Shrike.

Also, the Rat (one of Spider's much weaker sons) created a golem through Shadow magic which completely negates resistance as well. There's no reason to assume the Rat could accomplish something that Spider couldn't.

Plus the entire argument you're making is potency, and resistance negation is a pretty standard Guardian ability which Oryx completely memes on."

Whether it's a standard ability for the Guardians is irrelevant. Just because they have resistance negation as well that doesn't mean that it's on the same level as Spider's, especially since it's already shown to work against other 2-B beings.

"Additionally, his non-passive Taking is 2-A in potency and he almost definitely opens with this, assuming the passive 2-B Taking isn't enough for whatever reason."

Can he use the non-passive Taking in his 2-B key?
 
@Zenkai

What does Spider open with in-character?

@Ben

Yeah, and neither does any other resistance negating ability. Doesn't stop any of them from being resisted when they are, well, resisted.

Aside from the fact that it allowed Guardians to kill beings empowered by Sword Logic, which was around 2-B for basically everyone other than The Warpriest afaik

He can use that in all of his keys.
 
Exactly what I said above.

Spiders Power Nullification in his 2-B key is passive, as it has shown to passively nullify abilities in the past. It is derived from his Shadow Magic which is a conceptual omnipresent force that shapes reality, and constantly changes it to the users will. From that, Spider seals Oryx away, and yes, said sealing does work on beings similar to Oryx (As in, Abstract embodiments and type 5 Acasuals), Spider has been a victim of said sealing in the past anyway.

Furthermore, from what I have seen been argued in Oryx threads. His "go to" is his passive abilities. But unfortunately for him, Spider resists them, some of them at a conceptual level. Also the argument that all his passive abilities go off to work on an enemy gg sounds very, very weird and somewhat NLF, especially considering the large vairety. Is there one that goes into effect first?

I am not entirely sure why I had to repeat myself here, my arguments for Spider are literally posted above, to which, no refutes have been given to Spider's victory conditions, as such, I'll just copy-paste them again if need be.
 
Just here to point one thing out. Oryx's go to aren't his passives. It's just that in every match it's always first determined whether his opponent can survive the passives to make sure it's not a stomp. Oryx's go to is Taking.
 
Oryx was able to escape being sealed in The Deep, which is the source of his Taking and High 2-A.

Same could be said of Shadow Magic but meh. They bypass resistances because Oryx just goes "I do not give a single **** about your resistances" and they cease to affect anything due to Sword Logic, with which he was able to kill Akka despite worm dood being higher in the Sword Logic totempole than him at the time.
 
I think the context and primary arguments are heavily being thrown out the window here. I'll readdress them in order of what Spider can do to win.

Before I do "Same could be said of Shaodw Magic"

What could be said? That it is an omnipresent force that forms the Spiral's reality, and is what Spider embodies? Shown constantly, time and time again to have multiple different abilities within it, still being expanded upon years after its reveal?

  • Battle Starts
SBA is being used yada yada.

Now, they both have passive abilities, so I guess we have common ground that those abilities are the ones that will go into effect first.

  • Oryx's Passives: Spider resists the abilities that I have been told are passive (most abilities in his profile apparently). The abilities oryx have are abilities Raven and Bartleby combined already have (And many more yet to be added), and Spider's purpose is to counterbalance the two by sheer force of will and existence.
  • Spider's Passive: Essentially, Spider's passives are his Shadow Magic, but he can stop it if needed. His Power Nullifcation is through his Shadow Magic, if you have not noticed. So let me throw the question back at you. Can Oryx resist Spider's passives? Keep in mind, these abilities are associated with a conceptual, omnipresent force that forms an entire multiverse, that is constantly expanding, so general resistance won't be enough. Spider's hax can work on beings comparble, or even stronger than him. Oryx is starting at 2-B, and the passive nature of the abilities will go into effect fast enough for him to stay at 2-B. The primary Shadow Magic abilities would be A) Mind Manipulation: Spider's Mind Manipulation is so powerful, that he could have manipulated all three titans at once. And not only those titans, the entire race of all three titans. There were enough titans at the time Spider said he could do this, to inhabit an entire Universe, so even if you were to lowball, it would be in the millions. Then B) Power Null, which has been touched up upon enough in this thread, with no refute to it being given as of late.
  • Resistance Negation
I honestly haven't been paying attention to this argument. So I will give my piece and from what I have been paying attention to, I don't see how Oryx can really bypass this bypass? Spider's Resistance Negation is also from his Shadow Magic. Bypassing resistances through even immunity, so simply having "resistance", and even immunity isn't going to save Oryx here my friend. Immunity has been a thing since Azteca. This is an Arc 2 world before Spider was even a character in the game, years ago. That is Spider's resistance negation. So if in the odd case he resists the primary arguments above. And I am not sure if I am reading wrong or you are contradicting yourself. But you went from "lol he memes on Resistance Negation", and then jumped to "Oryx doesn't care about resistances".

"Memes on resistance negation": Unless he can do things on a level I have mentioned before, then no, he can't. Just because he can meme on resistance negation from one character, doesn't mean he can automatically do it to an other. That just doesn't make sense. As for "Oryx doesn't care", where is this from exactly? Because unless it is an immunity bypassing level threat, and even beyond that to be frank, Spider throws out a classic line around the context off "I can be as petty and absurd as I want against you, Oryx"

  • Sealing
Firstly, the sealing argument is really only a thing if Oryx can survive his passive abilities. From what I have seen, he can't. No one has even made an argument as to why Oryx wins before any of Spider's abilities messes him up. Ok, Oryx escaped a High 2-A place? Congratulations. Spider's sealing doesn't trap you in a dimension or anything. It binds you and restrains your power, effectively reducing your stats down drastically. In fact last used, it made a 2-B go down to Low 2-C. And that being was Spider himself ironically. It's not your general sealing, as it restrains you first and puts you down. This is done by 6 paradox chains of magic. Life, Death, Myth, Fire, Storm and Ice. An infinite amount of each. Once restrained down, you are put away.

All in all, I don't see any way of Oryx winning normally. Only way he does is if he reaches 2-A, but he will be gone long before that ever happens.
 
@Zenkai

Considering the fact that he resists his own Taking at a 5D level and also managed to kill Akka despite him having less power over Sword Logic than Akka at the time, so he resists the passives afaik. And no, Shadow Magic being common doesn't say anything about it's potency and everything you've said about it is basically the same for Sword Logic.

Nice little pile of NLF you got there. The more you say about Shadow Magic the less it helps Spider here, and i'm at least fairly certain that Oryx can weasle his way out of the power null in a similar way with what he did to Akka. Also the "change in arguments" you bring up is 100% semantics and a red herring, but nice try.

Except it does? Not entirely sure what you mean there, since his resistance negation doesn't suddenly stop working just because he's using on someone not from Destiny, which is what you are implying here.

We never did because Oryx opens with active Taking which is High 2-A. There is absolutely no way Spider can survive this and unless he goes for something winning, which i'm pretty sure he doesn't even have, Oryx wins. Additionally, Taking does similar things to Spider's Sealing and Oryx got sent into the being that was the source of Taking and was basically fine.
 
Wait so Spider's mind manipulation isn't 4-D?

What? yes it is. It mind manipulated 4-D beings; The Three Titans and the entire race of them at that.

"From what I see from Spider's Acausality's justification, this is only Type 4, dunno where type 5 come from"

Staff are the ones who said it was type 5, not type 4. I was the one who argued for type 4. It comes from lower gods being outside cosmic rules and the regular orders of the universe. Spider's profile just needs to be updated

@Hl3

Once again, you are clearly ignoring my points.

>NLF

NLF even though that is what the lore states time and time again? I'm sorry you can't accept that it has been stated to form reality and be one with it many times making it an omnipresent force, and it being a conceptual force that Spider embodies. Honestly seems like you're slapping NLF just to hope people see it as such and automatically assume you are right.

>Taking

Him resisting some hax at a 5-D level hax doesn't automatically mean he can resist all of them at a 5-D level. Specify to me the abilities of taking. Because from what I have seen, none of them are the primary applications of Shadow Magic. In fact, you didn't even refute my points, your argument in essence was just "lol no"

"Except it does? Not entirely sure what you mean there, since his resistance negation doesn't suddenly stop working just because he's using on someone not from Destiny, which is what you are implying here."

Except this is not at all what I said? I'm not implying that at all. Did you even read my post? I was talking about levels of resistance negation against Spider's level of resistance negation. You're twisting my argument here and putting words in my mouth. Nice Strawman.

"We never did because Oryx opens with active Taking which is High 2-A. There is absolutely no way Spider can survive this and unless he goes for something winning, which i'm pretty sure he doesn't even have, Oryx wins. Additionally, Taking does similar things to Spider's Sealing and Oryx got sent into the being that was the source of Taking and was basically fine."

Except, he has way to wins. You didn't even give any refutes to the primary points and banked on calling it either NLF or "no it doesn't work", despite A) The points I give about Shadow Magic being directly from the game B) Saying "it doesn't work" in essence, not being a debunk.

  • Battle starts
  • Passives go into effect
> You seem to have accepeted the fact Spider resists Oryx's passives. However, you have failed to argue why Spider's wouldn't work. Instead, giving bland statements of "lol 5-D". Please, specify to me the primary applications of taking and what he has resisted thanks to it. Because from everything that has been said already, none of them can save him from Shadow Magic.

  • Spider wins
As for the sealing, again, this isn't general sealing. You literally said, you literally said Oryx surviving sealing was from a high 2-A place. This is not Spider's sealing. Spider's binds the opponent in chains of magic, reduces their states back to Low 2-C levels, THEN traps them. It seems you are looking at multiple different interperations of your own feats, just to find one in which Oryx wins.
 
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2546596

Actually, Wokistan was the one who said it would be type 5 in the first place, 4 was only a safer option at the time. And Elizahh in a newer thread said there was good evidence of type 5. If you disagree with it after staff said it is type 5, a few at that, then you can deal with it in some other way. It is derailing the thread now.
 
Oryx's resistance to mind hax is 5-D, so it doesn't really matter.

Your counters to the NLF and Taking points from Hl3 are misleading.

Hl3 wasn't referring to shadow magic being a omnipresent conceptual force when he called NLF. I think it's more your points about immunitues. Now I don't know these bosses, but I'm telling you just in case. You should only make a resistances and immunities scaling chain with characters that are somehow relevant to each other. Immunite being a thing early on in the story does not say much, since by that logic Destiny would have absolutely ridiculous immunity scalung chains.

Hl3 also never claimed that all of Oryx's resistances are 5-D, just a bunch of the resistances that are relevant to your argument.

Also Oryx wasn't stuck in a High 2-A place, but in a High 2-A entity tgat can very uch fo the same thing as Spider's sealing.

Anyway it might be a good idea to wait for that thread about Spider's acausality.
 
Why weren't any of these mentioned at the start of the thread

"Hl3 wasn't referring to shadow magic being a omnipresent conceptual force when he called NLF. I think it's more your points about immunitues. Now I don't know these bosses, but I'm telling you just in case. You should only make a resistances and immunities scaling chain with characters that are somehow relevant to each other. Immunite being a thing early on in the story does not say much"

Well, it was structured weirdly and you talking on his behalf is strange. It isn't NLF, though. We can bypass immunities to characters relative to us, even stronger than us actually. If a wizard has immunity to a certain school, a wizard of a similar power, or even lower can bypass it. So that argument of it being NLF kinda falls flat.

"Hl3 also never claimed that all of Oryx's resistances are 5-D, just a bunch of the resistances that are relevant to your argument."

Which precisly. Simply saying "yeah he is resistant to that", doesn't tell me anything at all. It makes it seem like you are saying he is immune to every single aspect of Shadow Magic. Please specify the exact abilities, because if Oryx wants to survive the first few seconds of the fight, he would have to in effect be resistant to all the abilities of Shadow Magic.

"Also Oryx wasn't stuck in a High 2-A place, but in a High 2-A entity tgat can very uch fo "the same thing as Spider's sealing."

Honestly looks like the argument is being changed here, or the wording of Hl3 is a bit off. What exactly did this guy do? "In a high 2-A entity" > That is still literally in a High 2-A area. Once again, the argument for Spider's sealing is being misinterpretated here. Spider does not seal straight away. The 6 schools of magic restrain the enemies power first, making them go to High 4-C actually, not Low 2-C. (I misremembered, it weakened Spider originally so much that he became fodder to Morganthe and other fodder shadow mobs). I repeat, it does not seal straight away. It is more so a statistics reduction of an insane degree.
 
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